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Wulfaz
Tuesday, November 29th, 2016, 07:03 AM
The Christianity looses Europe, because the informational society can bring the black side of the Church to the wide mass and the people can know about other cults and religion, moreover they can compare them. The uncensored History can show that 2000 year old bloodshed what is the Church in the real life.

Hence the priests have gone to the Thirld World where are many illiterate people without any school or just basic school or exactly the Church have schools and thus they will be christianized when he/she finishes the school. Moreover the population of the Thirld World grow extremely and this is better hunting place for the Church than the educated, free minded, but reducing Europeans.

The Christianity always has need large numbered, idiot, uneducated, mentally disordered people, because this kind of men easier believ the greatest idiotisms of the World. This kind of men believ anything and some of them choose the torture or the death for an idiotism. Hence was the Classical Antiquity is bad for the Christianity as the Philosophs in the squares of Athen made ridiculous the Christian fanatics. However when Constantinus needed an universal religion what he could force to any roman subjects, he has chosen the Christianity as an Imperial Religion. Nobody know why. The Classical Antiquity, well, under the Barbarian invasions, lived.

Just under Theodosius has banned the old pagan cults, the Olympia and engaged the fanatic hordes whos were mostly monks, the most fanatic kind of Christians. I went to a Monastery-Temple very often many years ago and the monks can say the greatest idiotism, f.e. Tsunami is the wrath of God and etc. So this kind of monk hordes started to destroy the old temples, cultic places, the libraries what were the gather-points of the pagan studies. The military and the urban law enforcment what was well developed in the great cities in the roman time did not guard the pagan places against the monk hordes. The Western Empire was not so critical place, they lived together the old paganism and the Christianism. The Frank kings and later Emperors started destroy the paganism in the Germanic world what followed the Keltic, the Slavic and the Norse rulers. In Hispany was the Muslims, in Italy this was the age when the Church started to grow and it destroyed all pagan remains.

However in the Germanic and in the Slavic world in the North in the village the heathendom is survived till the age of Reformation where the remained heathen medicine man/woman and heathen priest/priestness killed as witch or wizzard.
Only in the Norse countries were where but were violent actions f.e. in Sweden between the heathen and christian noblemen, but there spread silently the Christianism, moreover the christian writers have written the old Sagas as neautral historic stories or fairy tales. There was not the fanatism as in the Frank Empire or in the Eastern Empire. In the Levante and North-Africa was a bless that the Saracens defeated the Christians, because they did not destroy the pagan books, but the Saracens used this knowledge.

In the place where the Western Christianity and the Muslim world met, Hispany and South-Italy the pagan knowledge could leak back into the Christian world. Because the fall of Constantinople in 1453 the greek scholars went to Italy too. This is the reason why was the centre the Renaissance is Italy. The bookprinting is invented in Germany, the German Rulers wanted secesse from Rome, two these points led to the Reformation where England, Scandinavia and the most of the Holy Roman Empire had secessed from the Church. The Church started the Counter-Reformation, hence in Spain, in France and in Italy stayed catholic and the remained last pagans were killed by the Holy Inquisition. The Entlightment in the catholic France and in the protestant England started defeat the Church in Europe. Well, somebody in the Catholic University said that the Protestantism is the first step to the Atheism. Many German philosopher had protestant pastor father like as Nietzsche.

As German I hate these religious scene what was the 30 years war where Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam the 2/3 of the German population was eliminated. After it the Vatican often has conspirated against the Berliner Court, because Prussia and later the German Empire was one of the greater protestant Power (the other the British Empire). The Jesuits till the end of the war had conspirated in the Entente-countries. However once the Austrian Empire was a pillar of the Church, they went against them, because the Austro-Hungarian Empire was inhe Church had chosen and it let to destroy the Austrian Empire. Only the Bavarian and the Berliner Communist Revolution stopped their conspiracy.

The last offensive of the Church was the support of catholic fascist dictators like as Mussolini, Franco, Horthy (in Hungary), Dollfuß (in Austria) and the Austro-Bavarian Hitler. One of the deed was when Mussolini toke off the power and secure, that in 1929 he has maden the Lateran Treaty with the Church. Between the fall of the Papal State in the 19th century and this treaty, the pope was an italian citizen and the buildings of the Church stood on italian soil. Mussolini has created the Vatican City as an indpendent state with some outer object as the Lateran Cathedral (what was the original main cathedral in Rome till the rise of the Papacy when the Saint Peter basilica has becomen the main cathedral) and the Castel Gandolfo in the beautiful italian countryside.

Hitler was an Austrian, later Bavarian Catholic. The Church supported him, because they feared a newer Communist Revolution in Bavaria and Berlin. Hitler good relations with the Holy See worsened under the war as it had becomen more brutalic. The last notes about Hitler tell that he staid Catholic till his dead.

The pope with these fascist dictators wanted destroy his main enemy, the Soviet Communist State. Maybe this was the reason that Hitler conquered the half of Europe, but they fanaticly wanted attack the Sovietunion what was the ally of the isolated Weimarian Republic and later the Hitlerist State. Hitler in the Sovietunion could test own tanks, heavy artilerry, aircrafts what were banned in the Wersailles Treaty. The Sovietunion was a confident ally after closely two decade. We learnt in the Catholic Unversity that Stalin wanted attack. However I have red that Stalin mentally collapsed to more weeks when own ally attack him. I believ the last version, because Stalin had peace with Japan, but he had interests in China and Mongolia. He need a secure back what was Germany under 20 years. Well, Hitler fanatically wanted attack the Sovietunion and maybe... maybe he had some deel with the Vatican that he will be enough strong, he will attack the greatest enemy of the Papacy. Maybe Hitler feared from the Vatican, because they supported when he went to the power and he dropped the civil parrties from the power, but those few thousand SS-soldier would not defend him againts the practics and power methods of the 2000 years old Vatican and he might think if he do not destroy the Communism, the Vatican will find another German who will lead the German Armed Forces into the Communist State.

Well, Hitler lost the war, the fascist systems have fallen in Europe, last Franco's Spain and the Sovietunion had conquered the half of Europe. Stalin once asked the pope that "How many division has the Vatican?" The plan failed and the Stalin got a massive anticlerical propagand in the Sovietunion and in the Communist states in Eastern Europe. Only Poland was still catholic as the religion was the resistance against the Soviets. However we see the religion map of Europe, f.e. Germany, the formal German Democratic Republic's provinces are the most unreligious. The Christianity is definitely more spreaded in the West than the East. Hence the Vatican wanted destroy the Sovietunion at all cost. The cost what they with their dictators burned the whole Europe and the cost of the old christian (especially catholic) Anti-Semitism what means 6 million jewish victim.

As I have written above now, in the 21th century with the internet what contact each other the whole world and with the post-war secular education the Church will loose Europe, well, I think will be here some christian. The centre of the Church is Latin-America, Africa and South-Asia. I am curious when put there the centre of the Papacy from the Post-Christian Europe. The contemporary pope is Latin-American, it is a sign and I would say that him will follow African and South-Asian popes too.

The real face of the bloodthirsty Church:

The Henchman has visited his Bosses.

http://www.tenc.net/vatican/hchurch.jpg

The bloodhound and its Chiefs.

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/bonhoeffer_hitler-1.jpg

"The Catholic Curch do not politize."

http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/28priestssalutehitler.jpg

The sadly truth.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e4/6c/58/e46c58e27f9ee56f3392e94bbd882e46.jpg

schwab
Saturday, December 1st, 2018, 07:14 PM
Hitler was seeking the support of Christian churches to gain power.

Wuotans Krieger
Saturday, December 1st, 2018, 09:18 PM
Hitler`s Table Talk

"So it`s not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
[14/10/1941]

"The same thing is happening to music as is happening to beauty in a world dominated by the shavelings-the Christian religion is an enemy to beauty."
[20-21/2/1942]

"What Bolshevism is achieving to-day on the materialist and technical level,Christianity had achieved on the metaphysical level.
When the Crown sees the throne totter,it needs the support of the masses.
It would be better to speak of Constantine the traitor and Julian the Loyal than of Constantine the Great and Julian the Apostate."
[27/1/1942]


The religion fabricated by Paul of Tarsus,which was later called Christianity,is nothing but the Communism of to-day"
[29-30/11/1944]

"If God is truly interested in men being enlightened,one wonders why He resorts to torture for that purpose.
While we`re on the subject,let`s add that,even amongst those who claim to be good Catholics,very few really believe in this humbug."

I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."

"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.
It will last another hundred years,two hundred years perhaps.
My regret will have been that I couldn`t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar."
[27/2/1942]

"Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don`t believe the thing`s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself."
[14/12/1941]

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law,a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
[10/10/1941]

"I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians!"

"But Christianity is the invention of sick brains:"
[13/12/1941]

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity`s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."
[11-12/7/1941]

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
[19/10/1941]

Terminus
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 06:17 AM
Hitler was seeking the support of Christian churches to gain power.Yes, but it's a feat that he managed to secure the support of the Protestant churches. Protestants of that period were analogous to modern evangelists in their stance on the Jewish community. Germany was 2/3rd Protestant. The op overlooks this.


Hitler`s Table TalkYet he never dropped his insistence that Jesus was an Aryan, not a Jew, all the way up to 1944.

Thorburn
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 09:38 AM
"The same thing is happening to music as is happening to beauty in a world dominated by the shavelings-the Christian religion is an enemy to beauty."
[20-21/2/1942] Hideous, indeed.

113872 113873 113874 113875 113876 113877 113878 113879

And as to music, Richard Wagner was a Christian. As were the large majority of all renowned composers in history.


"What Bolshevism is achieving to-day on the materialist and technical level, Christianity had achieved on the metaphysical level."
[27/1/1942] Au contraire. Christianity advocates moral absolutism, while Communism advocates moral relativism.

"Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins."
~ Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

"It is not the conscience of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their conscience."
~ Karl Marx, Founder of Communism


The religion fabricated by Paul of Tarsus,which was later called Christianity,is nothing but the Communism of to-day"
[29-30/11/1944] And yet, even today in this age of confusion, Christians are still overwhelmingly conservatives and right-wingers. That's why America has Trump, while Canada has Trudeau.


"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.
It will last another hundred years,two hundred years perhaps.
My regret will have been that I couldn`t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar."
[27/2/1942]The death of Christianity equals the end of all morals. Certainly, we could also arrive at the truth by reason alone, but history shows that this is simply too much demanded for almost all men. Our statesmen can't even speak three sentences without falling into a logical fallacy.

Much progress have we made since 1942. In the West, the confusion caused by relativism and the denial of God is nearly complete. People don't even know anymore to which gender they belong. Or what is right and wrong.

113866 113867 113868 113869 113870 113871

The Church of Satan, on the other hand, is well aware that the false enlightenment values and multiculturalism are essentially Satanic. Starts at minute 5:32.


https://youtu.be/ueeYIZs0xj4?t=332


"Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don`t believe the thing`s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself."
[14/12/1941] Erm, no, that's not the obstacle. Try again?


"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
[10/10/1941]
"Whatever sets man above the beast, whether we call it 'mind' [mens] or 'spirit' [spiritus] or, more correctly, both since we find both terms in Scriptures, if this rules over and commands the other parts that make up man, then man's life is in perfect order [tunc esse hominem ordinatissimum]. . . . We are to think of a man well-ordered, therefore, when his reason rules over these movements of the soul, for we must not speak of right order, or of order at all, when the more perfect is made subject to the less perfect. . . . It follows, therefore, that when reason, [ratio] or mind [mens], or spirit [spiritus], rules over the irrational movements of the soul, then that is in control in man which ought to be, by virtue of the natural law which we found to be eternal."
~ St. Augustine, Bishop of Alexandria, De Diversis Questionibus Octoginta Tribus, 395 AD



"I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians!"
"We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
And made themvirgin - pure (and undefiled),
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,
For the Companions of the Right Hand."
~ The Quran, Sura 56:35-38

"Abu Umama narrated: "The Messenger of God said, 'Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.'""
~ Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 39

Erm ... how do I say it best? No, thanks.


"But Christianity is the invention of sick brains:"
[13/12/1941]
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God."
~ 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves."
~ Romans 12:9-10

"As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another, but they will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay."
~ Daniel 2:43


"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
[19/10/1941] I do not consider human sacrifices, pederasty, and rape, plunder, and pillage exactly "pure, light, and serene." About which "ancient world" are we talking?

Amazing how a man so aware and competent in some things can be so deluded in others.

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 01:02 PM
Hideous, indeed.

113872 113873 113874 113875 113876 113877 113878 113879

And as to music, Richard Wagner was a Christian. As were the large majority of all renowned composers in history.

Au contraire. Christianity advocates moral absolutism, while Communism advocates moral relativism.

"Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins."
~ Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

"It is not the conscience of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their conscience."
~ Karl Marx, Founder of Communism

And yet, even today in this age of confusion, Christians are still overwhelmingly conservatives and right-wingers. That's why America has Trump, while Canada has Trudeau.

The death of Christianity equals the end of all morals. Certainly, we could also arrive at the truth by reason alone, but history shows that this is simply too much demanded for almost all men. Our statesmen can't even speak three sentences without falling into a logical fallacy.

Much progress have we made since 1942. In the West, the confusion caused by relativism and the denial of God is nearly complete. People don't even know anymore to which gender they belong. Or what is right and wrong.

113866 113867 113868 113869 113870 113871

The Church of Satan, on the other hand, is well aware that the false enlightenment values and multiculturalism are essentially Satanic. Starts at minute 5:32.


https://youtu.be/ueeYIZs0xj4?t=332

Erm, no, that's not the obstacle. Try again?


"Whatever sets man above the beast, whether we call it 'mind' [mens] or 'spirit' [spiritus] or, more correctly, both since we find both terms in Scriptures, if this rules over and commands the other parts that make up man, then man's life is in perfect order [tunc esse hominem ordinatissimum]. . . . We are to think of a man well-ordered, therefore, when his reason rules over these movements of the soul, for we must not speak of right order, or of order at all, when the more perfect is made subject to the less perfect. . . . It follows, therefore, that when reason, [ratio] or mind [mens], or spirit [spiritus], rules over the irrational movements of the soul, then that is in control in man which ought to be, by virtue of the natural law which we found to be eternal."
~ St. Augustine, Bishop of Alexandria, De Diversis Questionibus Octoginta Tribus, 395 AD



"We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
And made themvirgin - pure (and undefiled),
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,
For the Companions of the Right Hand."
~ The Quran, Sura 56:35-38

"Abu Umama narrated: "The Messenger of God said, 'Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.'""
~ Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 39

Erm ... how do I say it best? No, thanks.


"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God."
~ 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves."
~ Romans 12:9-10

"As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another, but they will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay."
~ Daniel 2:43

I do not consider human sacrifices, pederasty, and rape, plunder, and pillage exactly "pure, light, and serene." About which "ancient world" are we talking?

Amazing how a man so aware and competent in some things can be so deluded in others.


I seek no quarrel with Christians who care for their race and folk. Religion is of course a private matter and we heathens seek no converts. Either a man or woman hears the Call of the Gods or they don't as long as they hear the Call of the Blood.
My reasoning for posting these words of Hitler was to demonstrate Hitler's true and private thoughts on the Christian religion which he felt had done a great deal of harm to the ancient Aryan and Germanic worlds. They are not my words! It is my opinion and the opinion of Himmler that Christianity has emasculated Aryan and Germanic man and induced a guilt complex, something which one sees in the modern German population. I am truly grateful that I was born and raised in my father's country, England than the Germany of my mother for I have been spared this guilt complex and see things as they truly are.
I have never felt freer and saner since I abandoned my once passionately held Christian faith. This abandonment was a gradual process which began shortly after the death of my mother when I was in my late 20s in the late 1980s. I rediscovered first my German heritage, taught myself German, gained 3 qualifications in German up to university level, studied other Germanic languages, the Runes and the mythology of the Germanic peoples.
The more I immersed myself into my studies of all things Germanic the more I realised that there was a struggle in my innermost being between my Christian faith and my attraction to Wotan and the Gods of the Germanic peoples. I began to wear Runic jewellery and then a Thor's hammer (still quite unusual in the mid 1990s) although at the time I was not a heathen or not consciously so. Various tragedies occurred in my life between 1989 and 1997 which caused me to question and then gradually abandon my Christian faith. At this time I found myself in a hedonistic phase of my life as I entered early middle age and studied the philosophy of the great Nietzsche. This intensified my existential crisis. Then out of the blue, almost miraculously I received some leaflets in the post from Woden's Folk (WHO I NEVER CONTACTED) and this led to my contacting that mystical Order. From that point onwards I regained my sanity and put into PRACTICE what I had studied years before. For this reason I can never break my oaths to the Gods nor my Folk Warder. I am now Woden's servant and His instrument in this realm of being.
Going back to some of the points you made, Hitler was not a Christian. He was raised a Catholic but gradually rejected his childhood indoctrination. I would guess that this in part was due to the influence of the writings of Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels, the founder of Ariosophy and Ostara magazine. Christianity after all rejects the racial worldview except when it magnifies the Jew. The fact that many American 'conservatives' and 'right wingers' cling to their childhood indoctrination is indicative of an inability to confront two diametrically opposed Weltanschauungen. This is due to historical reasons. I have coined a term for this phenomenon-the 'Pilgrim Fathers Complex' and have discussed this several times on my Aryan Myth and Metahistory blog.
Wagner likewise was raised as a Christian but his lifestyle indicated that this was merely a thin cultural veneer rather than a deeply held conviction. Most of his music dramas incorporated themes from ancient German history, myth and legend. Of course his greatest work was the tetralogy Der Ring des Nibelungen, which by the way had a deep impression upon me in 1990 when I first heard this work. Herbert von Karajan is in my opinion the leading interpreter of this masterpiece. A Christian soul could never have composed such a work. Of course the majority of classical composers were 'Christian' as they were raised in an era of Christianity having a monopoly in the realm of religion. How could it any otherwise? No doubt you will point out to me that Parsifal was a 'Christian' work but this would betray a lack of knowledge not only of the music drama itself but the whole heathen basis of the Parzival myth, rooted in Celtic mythology.




Yet he never dropped his insistence that Jesus was an Aryan, not a Jew, all the way up to 1944.

Most people of his era still believed in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth even if they did not except his claims or teachings. We now know that there is no evidence to support the concept of an historical Jesus. He never existed, Jew or not.

Astragoth
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 01:25 PM
Hitlers table talk is a known fraud.

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 01:40 PM
Sometimes, in the bitter nights I go to Oak Wotan.
Surrounded by silent glare,
To forge an alliance with the powers at night.
The runic letters that makes the moon with his magic spell
and all those who during the day are full of impudence,
They become small before the magic formula!
They cast steel spears, but instead of hitting the target,
Solidify into stalagmites.
Thus, the false are separated from the real.
I came to a nest of swords and then give my formula
Blessings and prosperity for the good and the fair.
(Adolf Hitler, 1915)

Astragoth
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 02:38 PM
Source?

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 03:00 PM
The source for the poem by Hitler is 'Adolf Hitler' by John Toland, originally published in 1976 and one of the finest biographies on the man. Toland made extensive use of previously unpublished sources.
The German original:


"Ich gehe manchmal in rauhen Nächten
Zur Wotanseiche in den stillen Hain,
Mit dunklen Mächten einen Bund zu flechten -
Die Runen zaubert mir der Mondenschein.

Und alle, die am Tage sich erfrechten,
Sie werden vor der Zauberformel klein!
Sie ziehen blank - doch statt den Strauß zu flechten,
Erstarren sie zu Stalagmitgestein.

So scheiden sich die Falschen von den Echten -
Ich greife in das Fibelnest hinein
Und gebe dann den Guten und Gerechten
Mit meiner Formel Segen und Gedeihn."

In addition to being an accomplished artist Hitler was also a poet but this side of Hitler has been virtually ignored by most historians.

Terminus
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 03:33 PM
And as to music, Richard Wagner was a Christian. As were the large majority of all renowned composers in history.This is just blatant cultural appropriation, an overreaction if you will. The truly renowned composers were neither the merit of Christianity nor paganism. Mozart was already acquainted with the art of composition from a very young age long before he had been educated in the matter. From an early age, Julian was driven by a passionate interest in the Sun before he had been introduced to the sciences concerning it. It's in youth that people lay down their creative possibilities, as attested by Nikola Tesla.

Besides, if Wagner were Christian, then his anti-Semitism wouldn't have been so groundbreaking. This NYT article (https://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/01/books/sweden-s-nasty-sexist-racist-genius.html) underscores the difference between the anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages and the modern anti-Semitism.


Every [/I]judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins."
~ Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the ChurchHow would you reconcile that with Martin Luther's statement?

"Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes."


And yet, even today in this age of confusion, Christians are still overwhelmingly conservatives and right-wingers. That's why America has Trump, while Canada has Trudeau.Hence, they are not truly revolutionary. If they really oppose the present status quo, that is only because they want to supplant it with their own.


The death of Christianity equals the end of all morals.

Certainly, we could also arrive at the truth by reason alone, but history shows that this is simply too much demanded for almost all men. Our statesmen can't even speak three sentences without falling into a logical fallacy.That is debatable. Germany has always had good morals as demonstrated by it's attitude towards work, peace, and good relations, with or without Christianity. They were the ones who helped Christianity into it's slightly more tolerable, non-Bolshevik form. You could even argue that secular Germany upholds Christian morals better than it did under the Church's influence. See, all they did was kick out Jesus and relegate the OT stories to history. Schopenhauer exposed Kant's ethics as being based on Judaism in consideration for the treatment of animals as objects. Historically, Christianity has not been kind to animal welfare. See 2 Kings 19:35-36 and Judges 15:4-5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_pulling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_throwing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat-burning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat_throwing

Also, the Orient has never suffered a shortage of superior ethics. We can thank Mohammed for halting the Jewish advance in the East and crippling their capacity to undermine the Oriental man.

The Church Father Origen made a similar argument, is that who you had in mind? So then you would concur with Hitler's naive belief that minority leads, majority follows? The majority is gradually undergoing a profound change which will enable it to erase it's historic shortcomings and embrace truths collectively. Until that moment arises, the Church and it's authority can persist as a substitute, but it wasn't meant to last forever.


Much progress have we made since 1942. In the West, the confusion caused by relativism and the denial of God is nearly complete. The confusion is caused by a diverse and unchecked spread of innumerable ideologies that are in error or end up subverted.


People don't even know anymore to which gender they belong. That's been reported as early as the 5th century (Pseudo-Methodius) and in the older Hindu literature. The historic Christian response has been to condemn them to hellfire or neglect any inquiries into the phenomenon on the basis of John 9:1-3 (C. S. Lewis).


Or what is right and wrong. That is largely due to the education system. Instead of being made familiar with laws and how government works, people have to waste their time on subjects that don't interest them or memorizing scattered trivia about history, which is basically a gigantic fiction construct. Religion and science being taught simultaneously in the same schools adds to the confusion, since most people are unable to reconcile the apparent contradictions and end up picking either one or the other.


"Whatever sets man above the beast, whether we call it 'mind' [mens] or 'spirit' [spiritus] or, more correctly, both since we find both terms in Scriptures, if this rules over and commands the other parts that make up man, then man's life is in perfect order [tunc esse hominem ordinatissimum]. . . . We are to think of a man well-ordered, therefore, when his reason rules over these movements of the soul, for we must not speak of right order, or of order at all, when the more perfect is made subject to the less perfect. . . . It follows, therefore, that when reason, [ratio] or mind [mens], or spirit [spiritus], rules over the irrational movements of the soul, then that is in control in man which ought to be, by virtue of the natural law which we found to be eternal."
~ St. Augustine, Bishop of Alexandria, De Diversis Questionibus Octoginta Tribus, 395 ADIntelligence is not what distinguishes man from animal. We have competitors in crows, apes, dolphins, parrots, etc. Only the principle of work as a necessity is what has made man retain his dominion over the animal kingdom.


"Abu Umama narrated: "The Messenger of God said, 'Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.'""
~ Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 39Of course his soldiers would have been willing to die for that, it's more realistic.

What's wrong with polygamy (when it is not left unchecked)? German Christians had no problems resorting to it after the Thirty Year War. Plus there are plenty of Christian prophecies that talk about seven women taking one man as their husband, which can also be found in the Quran.

Terminus
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:10 PM
I seek no quarrel with Christians who care for their race and folk.So pretty much every Christian who's posted on this forum?


Religion is of course a private matter and we heathens seek no converts. Either a man or woman hears the Call of the Gods or they don't as long as they hear the Call of the Blood.I've seen you making propaganda for your cause for the past week rather persistently.


My reasoning for posting these words of Hitler was to demonstrate Hitler's true and private thoughts on the Christian religion which he felt had done a great deal of harm to the ancient Aryan and Germanic worlds. They are not my words! It is my opinion and the opinion of Himmler that Christianity has emasculated Aryan and Germanic man and induced a guilt complex, something which one sees in the modern German population. Yes he loathed Christianity, but not uncritically.

Hitler was neither Christian nor heathen. Plus he said, "The impression which I often get, especially of those so-called religious reformers whose creed is grounded on ancient Germanic customs, is that they are the missionaries and protégés of those forces which do not wish to see a national revival taking place in Germany."

His private ideas approximated towards Pythagorean and pre-Socratic Hellenism. He inclined towards Greek systems instead of ancient German religion since Wotanism already had it's basis of knowledge systematically destroyed by Christianity. Christianity was going the same way, being deprived of it's original brain matter (taking into account Plotinos and Porphyry's treatment of the gnostics, one should be asking whether the gnostics were just another persecuted sect or if they were the progenitors of Christianity before their namesake was appropriated by charlatans) for centuries. The mistake of all reformers is that they overlook the possibility that the narrative has become the source of corruption. Take Thomas Jefferson's "bible" for instance, where he merely omits the supernatural and miraculous, but allows "do not resist evil" to remain in place. Many of Jesus' teachings have been left embedded in unsuitable context.

Both Christianity and Wotanism are essentially empty hollow shells, the differences between the two is merely drapery (of which very little pertains to the religious principle, which had begun out of need rather than religious feeling i.e. the obligation to climb minarets, the holidays, sanctification of dates, washing and cleaning, diet), it's the content of the system that matters the most. Either religion will work if it has the right content filling it. That's why Hitler identified himself as a materialist who was more concerned with combating Bolshevism than whether Protestantism, Catholicism, or even Islam triumphed in Germany. In the long run, the Germans would gain hegemony over the prevailing system if left unimpeded and shape it into something more rational.


At this time I found myself in a hedonistic phase of my life as I entered early middle age and studied the philosophy of the great Nietzsche. This intensified my existential crisis. In assessing Nietzsche's philosophy, it's important to distinguish between his early writings and the later publications. He started off from the Greek heroism but later declined as a result of lacking a sturdy basis for his ideas.


Going back to some of the points you made, Hitler was not a Christian. He was raised a Catholic but gradually rejected his childhood indoctrination. He threw off Church teaching when he was still a youth (14 years old?). His views of the Church changed gradually, even at one point considering uniting the Protestants under one archbishop but later backing away from this decision.


I would guess that this in part was due to the influence of the writings of Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels, the founder of Ariosophy and Ostara magazine. German theologian Richard Weikart cited from primary and secondary sources debunking this assertion. Neither List nor Liebenfels had a significant influence on Hitler. According to Hitler's private notes (transcribed by Werner Maser), he partly imbibed his views of racial purity from Old Testament history. Streicher even went so far to assert that the Nuremberg Laws had been modeled on the Jewish laws by Ezra. Hitler would have also been made familiar with the Jewish process of destruction from reading the works of antiquity (i.e. Julian the Apostate) and his two greatest, non-occultist influences (Schopenhauer, Nietzsche).


Wagner likewise was raised as a Christian but his lifestyle indicated that this was merely a thin cultural veneer rather than a deeply held conviction. Most of his music dramas incorporated themes from ancient German history, myth and legend.No argument there.


Most people of his era still believed in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth even if they did not except his claims or teachings. We now know that there is no evidence to support the concept of an historical Jesus. He never existed, Jew or not.He was familiar with a non-Jewish, Greek custom (Matt. 5:29), despite not mingling among Alexandrian Jews. His anti-Semitism suggests a thorough familiarity with the Jews, although the Church has never really tapped into this power but has placed it on a pedestal to be parroted. Jesus' anti-Semitism can make sense if it's put into the right context.

Why then did the Jews loathe him for centuries, even going so far as to stigmatize him as a Samaritan, as the son of a whore and Roman soldier, and mock him for being a Galilean (no prophet comes out of Galilee). Rosenberg, who only supposedly opposed the churches, devotes entire pages in The Track of the Jew to tracing Jewish contempt for Jesus in the Talmud with their word-plays.

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:21 PM
Icarus

Why then did the Jews loathe him for centuries, even going so far as to stigmatize him as a Samaritan, as the son of a whore and Roman soldier, and mock him for being a Galilean (no prophet comes out of Galilee). Rosenberg, who only supposedly opposed the churches, devotes entire pages in The Track of the Jew to tracing Jewish contempt for Jesus in the Talmud with their word-plays


There is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion of an historical Jesus. If you believe otherwise then the onus is upon you to furnish us with the said evidence and not rely on hearsay centuries after his supposed life and death. You cannot rely on the Gospels which are not impartial and neither are they contemporary accounts.


Icarus
Neither List nor Liebenfels had a significant influence on Hitler.

You are going against scholarly opinion with that statement. They certainly affected his magickal view of the world, if not his racial and Hitler read Ostara at a young and impressionable age.

Gareth Lee Hunter
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:32 PM
Intelligence is not what distinguishes man from animal. We have competitors in crows, apes, dolphins, parrots, etc. Only the principle of work as a necessity is what has made man retain his dominion over the animal kingdom.

True. The choice between doing right or wrong is what separates mankind from other animals.


Of course his soldiers would have been willing to die for that, it's more realistic.

What's wrong with polygamy (when it is not left unchecked)? German Christians had no problems resorting to it after the Thirty Year War. Plus there are plenty of Christian prophecies that talk about seven women taking one man as their husband, which can also be found in the Quran.

Of course Muslims are indoctrinated to believe women are mere possessions to be used to satiate their libidos, and produce children.

Christians, at least those who believe women are equal partners, understand there is a distinct difference between the libido and matters of the heart. So, the concept of polygamy would be (is) very difficult for them to accept, let alone actually practice.

Terminus
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:48 PM
There is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion of an historical Jesus. If you believe otherwise then the onus is upon you to furnish us with the said evidence and not rely on hearsay centuries after his supposed life and death. You cannot rely on the Gospels which are not impartial and neither are they contemporary accounts.You could argue the same thing about any religious founder.

So the Old Testament, which is undeniably partial, can't be used to establish historical persons either? Scholars claim the Exodus never happened, Moses existed, etc. but the Exodus plainly says Jews robbed the Egyptians and the various tributes to Moses (golden vine and a statue were found in their Temple) are mentioned by writers of antiquity.


You are going against scholarly opinion with that statement. They certainly affected his magickal view of the world, if not his racial and Hitler read Ostara at a young and impressionable age.The claim that Hitler had read German myths comes from Kubizek yet it's strange that Hitler would never reference these myths in writings or speeches, also preventing pagan reforms attempted by Himmler and Rosenberg.

Hitler loathed such representatives of intelligentsia since they assimilated vast knowledge but didn't work upon the facts or integrate them into systems (he used the analogy of a mosaic when talking about the art of reading). They either left them largely unused (theoretical knowledge) or tossed them around carelessly with a holy-than-art-thou attitude (throwing pearls before the swine). They were useless for the struggle.

Terminus
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:51 PM
True. The choice between doing right or wrong is what separates mankind from other animals. Right and wrong are social concepts which can be found in the animal kingdom. Origen cited a quote from Celsus about how ants and bees are not dissimilar from humans.


Of course Muslims are indoctrinated to believe women are mere possessions to be used to satiate their libidos, and produce children.Isn't that the first purpose of marriage, to procreate?


Christians, at least those who believe women are equal partners, understand there is a distinct difference between the libido and matters of the heart. So, the concept of polygamy would be (is) very difficult for them to accept, let alone actually practice.Women's suffrage, slavery, etc. were championed by the churches only after Germans and other humanists had left their mark. The predominantly Catholic Spain was one of the last nations to abolish slavery.

Herr Rentz
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 04:56 PM
Yes, but it's a feat that he managed to secure the support of the Protestant churches. Protestants of that period were analogous to modern evangelists in their stance on the Jewish community. Germany was 2/3rd Protestant. The op overlooks this.

Yet he never dropped his insistence that Jesus was an Aryan, not a Jew, all the way up to 1944.

He also overlooks that Hitler was not against the Catholic Church. He was against those clergymen who tried to politicize the church and speak out against Hitler. Those clergymen were arrested and sent to concentration camps as well as a few of them being executed.

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 05:37 PM
Icarus
You could argue the same thing about any religious founder.

So the Old Testament, which is undeniably partial, can't be used to establish historical persons either? Scholars claim the Exodus never happened, Moses existed, etc. but the Exodus plainly says Jews robbed the Egyptians and the various tributes to Moses (golden vine and a statue were found in their Temple) are mentioned by writers of antiquity.


You are deflecting from the issue. I have asked you to furnish evidence to support the theory that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure. You have not done so; therefore I must conclude that you are unable to do so because there isn't any. I am well aware that religious movements can be founded on mythical or legendary persons but Christian doctrine requires of its adherents to believe in the physical incarnation of Jesus-a concept that is not supported by historical evidence.


Icarus
The claim that Hitler had read German myths comes from Kubizek yet it's strange that Hitler would never reference these myths in writings or speeches, also preventing pagan reforms attempted by Himmler and Rosenberg.

Hitler loathed such representatives of intelligentsia since they assimilated vast knowledge but didn't work upon the facts or integrate them into systems (he used the analogy of a mosaic when talking about the art of reading). They either left them largely unused (theoretical knowledge) or tossed them around carelessly with a holy-than-art-thou attitude (throwing pearls before the swine). They were useless for the struggle.


First of all you are misrepresenting what I have said. I referred to the influence that von Liebenfels and von List had upon the MAGICKAL worldview of Hitler. I did not refer to his views on mythology. By any case von Liebenfels was not by any stretch of the imagination a proponent of the Old Gods. The influence of these two people on Hitler is documented in Dr Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's The Occult Roots of Nazism. Secret Aryan Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology, 1985 and Hitler's Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich, 2017 by Eric Kurlander which goes into painstaking detail on this very issue.
I keep saying this and I will say it again; Germany was a Christian country. Openly discussing issues relating to the Occult would have been extremely counterproductive.

schwab
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 06:37 PM
"Protestant churches" ?
I would put emphasis on "Lutheran" churches. Don't forget Luther's book "Die Juden und ihre Luegen"

Wuotans Krieger
Sunday, December 2nd, 2018, 07:30 PM
"Protestant churches" ?
I would put emphasis on "Lutheran" churches. Don't forget Luther's book "Die Juden und ihre Luegen"



Interesting when you think about it. What a paradox! A man who hated the Jews and his 'saviour' was one!

Terminus
Monday, December 3rd, 2018, 07:56 AM
You are deflecting from the issue. I have asked you to furnish evidence to support the theory that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure. You have not done so; therefore I must conclude that you are unable to do so because there isn't any. I am well aware that religious movements can be founded on mythical or legendary persons but Christian doctrine requires of its adherents to believe in the physical incarnation of Jesus-a concept that is not supported by historical evidence.Admittedly, not even the most well-trained philologist would be able to prove Jesus' existence. I can only rely on his anti-Semitism and historic Jewish contempt for him.

But then it needs to be asked: who authored those anti-Semitic statements in Matthew 23? I distinguish between the woes and the isolated remarks (John 8:44, Rev. 3:9). It cannot have been an interpolation by the Church, which merely parrots in it's policies on the Jewish question. The Church Fathers demonstrate ignorance in their contempt for Jews. A self-hating Jew seems plausible, but then why would Jews allow it's distribution?


First of all you are misrepresenting what I have said. I referred to the influence that von Liebenfels and von List had upon the MAGICKAL worldview of Hitler. I did not refer to his views on mythology. By any case von Liebenfels was not by any stretch of the imagination a proponent of the Old Gods. The influence of these two people on Hitler is documented in Dr Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's The Occult Roots of Nazism. Secret Aryan Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology, 1985 and Hitler's Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich, 2017 by Eric Kurlander which goes into painstaking detail on this very issue.
I keep saying this and I will say it again; Germany was a Christian country. Openly discussing issues relating to the Occult would have been extremely counterproductive.What on earth do you mean by magickal?

So you trust mainstream historians who quote extensively from other historians over memoirs of Hitler's closest associates (i.e. Heinrich Hoffman, Heinz Linge)? Just because it fits into your anti-Christian, pro-heathen sentiment?

Speaking of Goodrick-Clarke, Weikart argued that Goodrick-Clarke had discovered the opposite of what his title suggests, that NS did not have occult origins. He quotes from Goodrick-Clarke's book, "Ariosophy is a symptom rather than influence in the way that it anticipated Nazism." That is, the racialist and eugenicist ideas were already prevalent in Germany, despite Christianity being the predominant religion. They were merely picked up by occult sects.

Even if Eric Kurlander's book were well-detailed, it means very little if it's not relying chiefly on primary/secondary sources. Weikart's book on Hitler's Religion lists 90 pages of such sources (with the occasional reference to other historians), often in their original German publication and usually obscure to English readers (i.e. Rosenberg's diaries).

Wuotans Krieger
Monday, December 3rd, 2018, 11:58 AM
Icarus. Admittedly, not even the most well-trained philologist would be able to prove Jesus' existence. I can only rely on his anti-Semitism and historic Jewish contempt for him.

If you cannot prove his existence then he did not exist. It is as simple as that. We can prove the existence of other people from antiquity so why not Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of a major world religion? This issue is important as the Church requires its believers to accept that Jesus was born in the flesh and died. If there is no evidence for these things then the religion is built upon a lie.


Icarus. But then it needs to be asked: who authored those anti-Semitic statements in Matthew 23? I distinguish between the woes and the isolated remarks (John 8:44, Rev. 3:9). It cannot have been an interpolation by the Church, which merely parrots in it's policies on the Jewish question. The Church Fathers demonstrate ignorance in their contempt for Jews. A self-hating Jew seems plausible, but then why would Jews allow it's distribution?



None of this is evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are not contemporary records but fictional stories.


Icarus.
What on earth do you mean by magickal?

Don't you have a dictionary?




Icarus. So you trust mainstream historians who quote extensively from other historians over memoirs of Hitler's closest associates (i.e. Heinrich Hoffman, Heinz Linge)? Just because it fits into your anti-Christian, pro-heathen sentiment?

Speaking of Goodrick-Clarke, Weikart argued that Goodrick-Clarke had discovered the opposite of what his title suggests, that NS did not have occult origins. He quotes from Goodrick-Clarke's book, "Ariosophy is a symptom rather than influence in the way that it anticipated Nazism." That is, the racialist and eugenicist ideas were already prevalent in Germany, despite Christianity being the predominant religion. They were merely picked up by occult sects.

Even if Eric Kurlander's book were well-detailed, it means very little if it's not relying chiefly on primary/secondary sources. Weikart's book on Hitler's Religion lists 90 pages of such sources (with the occasional reference to other historians), often in their original German publication and usually obscure to English readers (i.e. Rosenberg's diaries).

Dr Goodrick-Clarke was a respective academic who wrote three books on the cultic and esoteric aspects of National Socialism. I see no reason to question his scholarship. You clearly have not read any of his works or you would not have made such a comment. You are confusing Hitler's racial world view with his occultic and magickal world view. The influence of Ariosophy upon the latter is well documented not only by him but more recently by Kurlander. You have also clearly not read Kurlander's book but that does no appear to prevent you from venturing an 'opinion'.
Linge and Hoffman like other people on the periphery of Hitler's life knew only certain aspects of the man. Their input therefore is of limited value.

Terminus
Monday, December 3rd, 2018, 07:22 PM
If you cannot prove his existence then he did not exist. It is as simple as that. We can prove the existence of other people from antiquity so why not Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of a major world religion? This issue is important as the Church requires its believers to accept that Jesus was born in the flesh and died. If there is no evidence for these things then the religion is built upon a lie.You can prove the existence of other people from antiquity as long as the pertaining literature is still around. No one would know anything about Celsus if Origen hadn't penned a rebuttal. Does that mean Celsus would cease existing?


None of this is evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are not contemporary records but fictional stories.The narrative is fiction, the maxims contained in it are authentic. Gospel of Thomas simply features sayings attributed to Jesus. I'm saying that the maxims found in the syncretic gospels originally would have been derived from a similar book.


Don't you have a dictionary?If people nowadays had access to magic, wouldn't they have already destroyed themselves?


Dr Goodrick-Clarke was a respective academic who wrote three books on the cultic and esoteric aspects of National Socialism. I see no reason to question his scholarship. You clearly have not read any of his works or you would not have made such a comment. You are confusing Hitler's racial world view with his occultic and magickal world view.And who has time to read three books? They never get to the point. I can sum up NS esoterics with three maxims: god helps those who help themselves, struggle is the father of all things, healthy mind in a healthy body.

Actually I have a full copy of his book in pdf form, but I haven't read it in a while.

Race and religion were not separated for Hitler, just as it wasn't for ancient Germans.


The influence of Ariosophy upon the latter is well documented not only by him but more recently by Kurlander. You have also clearly not read Kurlander's book but that does no appear to prevent you from venturing an 'opinion'.I wasn't aware that this was an academic only topic.


Linge and Hoffman like other people on the periphery of Hitler's life knew only certain aspects of the man. Their input therefore is of limited value.What about Hermann Giesler?

Not if it's put together. Contradictions are scarce, their descriptions of Hitler are consistent. They are more trustworthy than what later generations (often non-Germans) have imputed to Hitler.

Wuotans Krieger
Monday, December 3rd, 2018, 08:04 PM
Icarus
You can prove the existence of other people from antiquity as long as the pertaining literature is still around. No one would know anything about Celsus if Origen hadn't penned a rebuttal. Does that mean Celsus would cease existing?

You are deflecting again. You cannot provide me with one iota of evidence for the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. You clearly know enough to realise that there isn't any but why you insist on not admitting to this is rather strange.


Icarus. The narrative is fiction, the maxims contained in it are authentic. Gospel of Thomas simply features sayings attributed to Jesus. I'm saying that the maxims found in the syncretic gospels originally would have been derived from a similar book.

The whole story of Jesus of Nazareth is fiction. The issue regarding the origins of the teachings is another matter. Yet the church insists that its believers accept the historical existence of its alleged founder. Indeed not too long ago those who expressed such doubts would have been burned as 'heretics'. (Little difference there to ISIS)

Icarus


If people nowadays had access to magic, wouldn't they have already destroyed themselves?




You are commenting on a subject which you have no first or second hand knowledge of. I made it clear that there is a most definite link between German Ariosophy and the occultic world view of Hitler. This is an entirely separate subject to race or religion.

Icarus

And who has time to read three books? They never get to the point. I can sum up NS esoterics with three maxims: god helps those who help themselves, struggle is the father of all things, healthy mind in a healthy body.
Actually I have a full copy of his book in pdf form, but I haven't read it in a while.


I have read and indeed own thousands of books-real books made from paper. I find it incredulous that anyone could make the remark that they do not have time to read a mere 3 books and yet they set themselves as a critic of the said books and their teaching!



Icarus Race and religion were not separated for Hitler, just as it wasn't for ancient Germans.

Firstly the ancient Teutons are unlikely to have had a concept based on any racial worldview as generally speaking the vast majority of them did not encounter other races, only other tribes. Again you talk about 'religion' whilst I am referring to the realms of magick and the occult. Do you not understand the differences?

Icarus
I wasn't aware that this was an academic only topic.

You are the one who cast doubt upon the influence of Ariosophy upon Hitler. I have made you aware of just 2 academics who would have disagreed with you.


Icarus What about Hermann Giesler?

What about Giesler?

Icarus

Not if it's put together. Contradictions are scarce, their descriptions of Hitler are consistent. They are more trustworthy than what later generations (often non-Germans) have imputed to Hitler.


As I have already said to you people on the periphery of Hitler's life would not have had any knowledge about his inner life and occultic influences. This is why we rely upon historians. Their knowledge of the real man was thus limited (as Hitler intended).

Terminus
Tuesday, December 4th, 2018, 08:41 AM
The whole story of Jesus of Nazareth is fiction. The issue regarding the origins of the teachings is another matter. Yet the church insists that its believers accept the historical existence of its alleged founder. Indeed not too long ago those who expressed such doubts would have been burned as 'heretics'. (Little difference there to ISIS) A person lives on in his teachings. Who was the author of the NT gospel ethics if not "Jesus"?

ISIS is controlled opposition (supports Israeli interests) calculated to make Islam look more barbaric than it already is.


You are commenting on a subject which you have no first or second hand knowledge of. I made it clear that there is a most definite link between German Ariosophy and the occultic world view of Hitler. This is an entirely separate subject to race or religion.You speak about magic, but you never provided an explanation on it.

If you wish to connect Hitler to Ariosophy, you must also establish a connection with Theosophy.

"Even before the First World War, occult-racist völkisch sects in Austria and Germany had quarried the ideas of Theosophy for the Aryo-Germanic cult of Ariosophy." - Goodrich-Clarke

Why did Hitler never pay homage to the theory of root-races?


I have read and indeed own thousands of books-real books made from paper. I find it incredulous that anyone could make the remark that they do not have time to read a mere 3 books and yet they set themselves as a critic of the said books and their teaching!I have never finished a single non-fiction book from front to back. How could anyone possibly read in that manner without dulling their minds? I acquired a razor-sharp mind from selective reading, purpose-driven inquiries.


Firstly the ancient Teutons are unlikely to have had a concept based on any racial worldview as generally speaking the vast majority of them did not encounter other races, only other tribes. Again you talk about 'religion' whilst I am referring to the realms of magick and the occult. Do you not understand the differences?That sounds absurd. Tacitus plainly said they were racially conscious. Plus the Jews and Egyptians were for a long time cut off from other races yet they still managed to conceive a racial worldview (Gen. 43:32).

Race and religion were inseparable concepts in antiquity. This can easily be gleamed from the essay of Julian of Apostate. Polytheism and polygenism went hand-in-hand. And it wasn't just Greece/Rome.

"The direct historical evidence concerning the religion of the ancient Germans is scanty. It is known that it was most intimately incorporated with the thoughts, characters and lives of the people; that their old beliefs and usages continued, to be cherished for centuries after the introduction of Christianity, side by side with those of the purer religion." - M.C. Springer

"We have seen how, in contrast to peoples of the Semitic type, the attitudes of soul, will and reason of the Nordics toward the universe were essentially in harmony." - Alfred Rosenberg

"As for their religion, there was no necessity to put it into words, which suited a people who were naturally frugal with their words anyway. They carried their spiritual consciousness deep within their souls; it served them like a compass needle which always steers a ship on its proper course." - Frithjof Fischer

"The free fancy of the ancients, which wove the web of their myths and legends, was consecrated by faith. It had not, like the modern mind, set apart a petty sanctuary of borrowed beliefs, beyond which all the rest was common and unclean. Imagination, reason, and religion circled round the same symbol; - Albert Pike

"Few of the early cults actually worshiped anthropomorphic deities, although their symbolism might lead one to believe they did. They were moralistic rather than religionistic; philosophic rather than theologic." - Manly P. Hall


You are the one who cast doubt upon the influence of Ariosophy upon Hitler. I have made you aware of just 2 academics who would have disagreed with you.Sigh. So it has to be this way huh.

First of all, does this mean you don't acknowledge Dr. Richard Weikart as an academic?

Second, let me produce direct quotes from your favorite academic...

"During the Third Reich Lanz is supposed to have been forbidden to publish, and his organizations, the ONT and the Lumenclub, were officially dissolved by order of the Gestapo."

"It also remains a fact that Hitler never mentioned the name of Lanz in any recorded conversation, speech, or document. If Hitler had been importantly influenced by his contact with the Ostara, he cannot be said to have ever acknowledged this debt... The evidence for Hitler's knowledge of Guido von List and his Armanism is less firm and rests upon the testimony of a third party and some literary inferences."

Goodrick-Clarke mainly succeeds in connecting William L. Pierce's cosmotheism and Christian Identity to Ariosophy. Goodrick-Clarke says nothing about it explicitly influencing Hitler, he merely examines it's plausibility (what amounts to speculation and inference) in the last chapter of one of his books.

Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke mentions a close associate of Liebenfels, Herbert Reichstein (Jewish surname). He also mentions and confirms the involvement of at least two Jewish members of the Guido von List Society, Moritz Altschüler and Ernst Wachle. Jews had a role in shaping Ariosophy, don't you find that rather suspicious? It's not like the case of Emil Maurice, who was discovered to be a mischling after he had been dismissed from service.


What about Giesler?His memoirs were never translated into English until recently. Why did mainstream historians pick Albert Speer over Hitler's other architect?


As I have already said to you people on the periphery of Hitler's life would not have had any knowledge about his inner life and occultic influences. This is why we rely upon historians. Their knowledge of the real man was thus limited (as Hitler intended).And why do we need historians to piece together facts? Anyone can do that detective work.

I find it strange how you never defer to revisionists but instead submit to mainstream historians with hostile positions.

Of course, I hold all historians in scorn, regardless of their position on the Holocaust and other WW2-related subjects, but try quoting from some revisionists every now and then if you really wish to be acknowledged as a NS representative rather than an anti-nationalist subversive.

Wuotans Krieger
Tuesday, December 4th, 2018, 11:59 AM
Icarus
A person lives on in his teachings. Who was the author of the NT gospel ethics if not "Jesus"?

ISIS is controlled opposition (supports Israeli interests) calculated to make Islam look more barbaric than it already is.


I may have enjoyed reading the adventures of Biggles as a child but I never was under the illusion that he was an historical character. The gospels were written many years after the alleged death of the alleged Jesus. They are works of fiction and Jesus himself is a mythological archetype with elements plagiarised from Indo-European sun myths. I am still waiting for you to furnish evidence that an historical Jesus ever existed. You appear to be struggling with this, having to really reach down into the barrel to scrape out some exceedingly weak arguments to support your thesis.
There is no qualitative difference between the terrorist techniques of ISIS and the Christianisation of the northern European peoples. This is the point which I have tried to make. The church ruled by terror, encouraging ignorance for centuries in Europe.


Icarus
You speak about magic, but you never provided an explanation on it.

If you wish to connect Hitler to Ariosophy, you must also establish a connection with Theosophy.

"Even before the First World War, occult-racist völkisch sects in Austria and Germany had quarried the ideas of Theosophy for the Aryo-Germanic cult of Ariosophy." - Goodrich-Clarke

Why did Hitler never pay homage to the theory of root-races?


I find it incredulous and slightly amusing that you do not understand the concept of magick which is the exercise of the subjective will of the magician upon the objective world to produce an intended effect or change. Hitler understood this and his personal library contained many works on magick and the occult, heavily annotated by his own hand.
The connection between Ariosophy has already been established by both Goodrick-Clarke and most especially by Kurlander. It is not necessary for me to establish a connection directly between theosophy and Hitler, merely that there is an Ariosophical influence which has been well established. With regard to root races why would Hitler speak about such things openly to a Christian electorate? How would THAT consolidate his position and power over the German people?


Icarus
I have never finished a single non-fiction book from front to back. How could anyone possibly read in that manner without dulling their minds? I acquired a razor-sharp mind from selective reading, purpose-driven inquiries.


That to me is indicative of a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span. Nothing in life can be achieved by short cuts.




Icarus First of all, does this mean you don't acknowledge

Dr.
Richard Weikart as an academic?


I have not denied he is an academic. I have merely questioned his relevance to the issues that we are discussing?


Icarus
"During the Third Reich Lanz is supposed to have been forbidden to publish, and his organizations, the ONT and the Lumenclub, were officially dissolved by order of the Gestapo."

"It also remains a fact that Hitler never mentioned the name of Lanz in any recorded conversation, speech, or document. If Hitler had been importantly influenced by his contact with the Ostara, he cannot be said to have ever acknowledged this debt...
The evidence for Hitler's knowledge of Guido von List and his Armanism is less firm and rests upon the testimony of a third party and some literary inferences
."



Yes under the influence of Karl Maria Willigut and after the flight of Hess there was a clampdown on both Ariosophical writers, Armanists and occultists generally except those who fell under the patronage of Himmler but the clampdown as Kurlander has shown was very piecemeal and selective. The NSDAP sought to control every aspect of life in Germany and this included beliefs. One need only consider the oppression of the churches within the Third Reich, especially those who would not conform to Nazi doctrine. There would have been nothing more embarrassing or damaging to Hitler politically for him to openly support what would have been viewed as fringe beliefs and 'cranks'. This is why his public speeches are often at odds with his private conversations. They were sheer propaganda. In any religion or magickal order there is an inner and an outer order, an esoteric and an exoteric. Kurlander has demonstrated to a much greater degree the link between von Liebenfels and Hitler than Goodrick-Clarke as his scholarship is far more recent and extensive.




Goodrick-Clarke mainly succeeds in connecting William L. Pierce's cosmotheism and Christian Identity to Ariosophy. Goodrick-Clarke says nothing about it explicitly influencing Hitler, he merely examines it's plausibility (what amounts to speculation and inference) in the last chapter of one of his books.

Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke mentions a close associate of Liebenfels, Herbert Reichstein (Jewish surname). He also mentions and confirms the involvement of at least two Jewish members of the Guido von List Society, Moritz Altschüler and Ernst Wachle. Jews had a role in shaping Ariosophy, don't you find that rather suspicious? It's not like the case of Emil Maurice, who was discovered to be a mischling after he had been dismissed from service.

Where is your evidence that Ernst Wachler was a Jew? Goodrick-Clarke stated that he was voelkisch author and the founder of an open-air Germanic theatre in the Harz mountains. (page 43) Your accusation appears to be unlikely. I can find any reference to a Moritz Altschueler. Whilst Reichstein is repeatedly mentioned by Goodrick-Clarke he gives no indication in his book that he is a Jew. He was a voelkisch author and publisher. Again you appear to be making claims not based upon evidence.



His memoirs were never translated into English until recently. Why did mainstream historians pick Albert Speer over Hitler's other architect?


What is the relevance of your question? Speer was a senior Minister in Hitler's cabinet, one of the most prominent in the Reich. What he thus had to say after the war was thus highly important although not necessarily fully truthful.


Icarus
And why do we need historians to piece together facts? Anyone can do that detective work.
I find it strange how you never defer to revisionists but instead submit to mainstream historians with hostile positions.
Of course, I hold all historians in scorn, regardless of their position on the Holocaust and other WW2-related subjects, but try quoting from some revisionists every now and then if you really wish to be acknowledged as a NS representative rather than an anti-nationalist subversive.


Historians are trained academics who have experience in sifting evidence and assessing its importance and validity, something beyond the scope of the average opinionated taxi driver. I find most revisionists are not qualified historians and lack the ability to keep a level head as they tend to look for 'evidence' that fits their preconceived theories rather than see where the evidence takes them in an objective manner. I don't know whether you could class David Irving as a 'revisionist' but I respect his scholarship and have a number of his works, one of which he personally signed and sent to me as a free gift.
In terms of who I will 'quote from' I will be the judge of that, not you. I am not and never have been an 'NS representative'. My work and goals are spiritual in nature, not political. Likewise I have never maintained that I am a 'nationalist'. Questioning a prevailing narrative does not make one 'subversive' but a person who has the ability to think for himself. This is the problem with mass movements-you have to leave your brains at the door to enter therein.

Icarus

That sounds absurd. Tacitus plainly said they were racially conscious. Plus the Jews and Egyptians were for a long time cut off from other races yet they still managed to conceive a racial worldview (Gen. 43:32).

Race and religion were inseparable concepts in antiquity. This can easily be gleamed from the essay of Julian of Apostate. Polytheism and polygenism went hand-in-hand. And it wasn't just Greece/Rome.

"The direct historical evidence concerning the religion of the ancient Germans is scanty.
It is known that it was most intimately incorporated with the thoughts, characters and lives of the people
; that their old beliefs and usages continued, to be cherished for centuries after the introduction of Christianity, side by side with those of the purer religion." - M.C. Springer

"We have seen how, in contrast to peoples of the Semitic type, the attitudes of soul, will and reason of the Nordics toward the universe were essentially in harmony." - Alfred Rosenberg

"As for their religion, there was no necessity to put it into words, which suited a people who were naturally frugal with their words anyway. They carried their spiritual consciousness deep within their souls; it served them like a compass needle which always steers a ship on its proper course." - Frithjof Fischer

"The free fancy of the ancients, which wove the web of their myths and legends, was consecrated by faith. It had not, like the modern mind, set apart a petty sanctuary of borrowed beliefs, beyond which all the rest was common and unclean. Imagination, reason, and religion circled round the same symbol; - Albert Pike

"Few of the early cults actually worshiped anthropomorphic deities, although their symbolism might lead one to believe they did. They were moralistic rather than religionistic; philosophic rather than theologic." - Manly P. Hall



Tacitus did NOT say that they were "racially conscious". He said that they were of unmixed stock. The reason for this is not to be found in any racial doctrine but their lack of proximity to other races! In fact have you actually read Germania?
The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'. the Teutons unlike the Egyptians (who DID encounter other races) did not live in close proximity to other races.
Race, religion and magick are three different disciplines and are not necessarily interdependent except perhaps in the case of ancestral religions.
Rosenberg was a racialist and his work is hardly free of subjectivity and bias. It is not a work that one could use to illustrate an argument objectively with although I have read it (from cover to cover) and occasionally refer to. The grip that the semitic religion of Christianity still has on 'Nordic souls' demonstrates my thesis is valid.
I notice that you chose to quote from a freemason, Pike!
The ancient Teutons DID use idols to represent their Gods. We know this from archaeological discoveries and literary references.

Terminus
Tuesday, December 4th, 2018, 04:22 PM
...Jesus himself is a mythological archetype with elements plagiarised from Indo-European sun myths.He is in some respects an amalgam, but not as portrayed by anti-Christian websites. He seems to be a composite of three different, contemporary individuals: a communist agitator, a revolutionary, and a reformer. The gospels may give some hint to at least two of their names: Jesus Barabbas (communist); Jesus, the disciple of John the Baptist (revolutionary). John the Baptist is "established" by the historian Josephus.


There is no qualitative difference between the terrorist techniques of ISIS and the Christianisation of the northern European peoples. This is the point which I have tried to make. The church ruled by terror, encouraging ignorance for centuries in Europe.What about Judaism which gave birth to both? An attack on Christianity is an attack on a proxy and injurious to the religious principle (if you don't provide a worthy substitute). An attack on Judaism, or the Old Testament, which is presently Christianity's basis of knowledge, and a wholesale condemnation on the Jewish people has more profit for people who really want to do away with Christianity and it's ethics ("philosopher" Kant) and worn out formulations for the deity (the New Order furnishes an example) and elitist priesthood (of which there is a colossal risk of paganism degenerating into. Monopolization of facts is a Jewish tendency).


I find it incredulous and slightly amusing that you do not understand the concept of magick which is the exercise of the subjective will of the magician upon the objective world to produce an intended effect or change. How would anyone on here know what that means? You're the first to bring it up afaik.


Hitler understood this and his personal library contained many works on magick and the occult, heavily annotated by his own hand.Cite some examples, I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Timothy W. Ryback. Neither List nor Liebenfels are mentioned in his book. A fatal omission?

Your favorite author Goodrick-Clarke said, “A single Lanz monograph, Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch (1926), stands among the surviving 2,000 volumes of Hider's personal library, but this is neither conclusive evidence that the book was read nor does it essentially relate to Lanz's ideology, being a later liturgical work.”


The connection between Ariosophy has already been established by both Goodrick-Clarke and most especially by Kurlander. It is not necessary for me to establish a connection directly between theosophy and Hitler, merely that there is an Ariosophical influence which has been well established.

With regard to root races why would Hitler speak about such things openly to a Christian electorate? How would THAT consolidate his position and power over the German people?You rave on and on about so-called facts being “established”. Well, it's also “established” that theosophy influenced Arisophy so it's necessary to make the connection.

Well he didn't bring it up in his private discussions either.


That to me is indicative of a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span. Nothing in life can be achieved by short cuts.So Hitler had a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span in his reading? I'm merely emulating his reading methods. There's ample testimony of Hitler's faculty of concentration. It's what enabled him to exert influence over the German people. It has nothing to do with the supernatural or occultism.


I have not denied he is an academic. I have merely questioned his relevance to the issues that we are discussing?We're discussing Hitler's influences. Weikart wrote a whole book on the matter. Not only does he distance Hitler from Christianity (his primary goal), but also from paganism and occultism (he didn't have to).


There would have been nothing more embarrassing or damaging to Hitler politically for him to openly support what would have been viewed as fringe beliefs and 'cranks'. This is why his public speeches are often at odds with his private conversations. They were sheer propaganda.Public speeches were geared towards Christians up until the 1930s, after which he begins to emphasize self-help, self-reliance. This was not “sheer propaganda”. The maxim god helps those who helps themselves (antithesis to Christian teaching) is frequently invoked publicly, occurring even in the table talks. In one or two untranslated speeches, he explicitly identifies it with his religious belief.


In any religion or magickal order there is an inner and an outer order, an esoteric and an exoteric. Kurlander has demonstrated to a much greater degree the link between von Liebenfels and Hitler than Goodrick-Clarke as his scholarship is far more recent and extensive.And Kurlander just happens to be a popular Jewish surname.

I find it hard to take seriously someone who wants to make a movie adaptation of his own book: http://mybookthemovie.blogspot.com/2017/07/eric-kurlanders-hitlers-monsters.html


Where is your evidence that Ernst Wachler was a Jew? Goodrick-Clarke stated that he was voelkisch author and the founder of an open-air Germanic theatre in the Harz mountains. (page 43) Your accusation appears to be unlikely. I can find any reference to a Moritz Altschueler. Whilst Reichstein is repeatedly mentioned by Goodrick-Clarke he gives no indication in his book that he is a Jew. He was a voelkisch author and publisher. Again you appear to be making claims not based upon evidence.From Uwe Puschner's book (mentioned on the wiki):

“Sein Vater war der Generalstaatsanwalt Ludwig Wachler, seine Mutter die im jugendlichem Alter von Judentum zum Protestantismus konvertierte Marie Fürst.”

Concerning Moritz:
“Moritz Altschuler, the rabbinical scholar who was a member of the List Society and edited the Vierte~ahrsschnftfur Bibelkunde.” (Goodrick-Clarke)

Concerning Reichstein:
The guy with a Jewish sounding surname just happens to write a book on the Kabbalah (can be found online). Goodrich-Clarke notes that “almost nothing is known about his youth or experience” but despite this profound lack of background, Lanz appointed him as his publisher.

Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke also mentions an Arthur Schulz. I could go on and on about these individuals, but it's undeniable that Jews were involved in Ariosophy.


What is the relevance of your question? Speer was a senior Minister in Hitler's cabinet, one of the most prominent in the Reich. What he thus had to say after the war was thus highly important although not necessarily fully truthful.Giesler was Speer's rival and also favored by Hitler. Testimony of Speer must be balanced with Giesler's. Yet historians neglect to mention Giesler. That demonstrates a fatal bias, or as you put it, their interpretations are on par with an “average opinionated taxi driver.”


In terms of who I will 'quote from' I will be the judge of that, not you. I am not and never have been an 'NS representative'. My work and goals are spiritual in nature, not political. Likewise I have never maintained that I am a 'nationalist'. Questioning a prevailing narrative does not make one 'subversive' but a person who has the ability to think for himself. This is the problem with mass movements-you have to leave your brains at the door to enter therein.You remind me of the apostle Paul, who put his private notions beyond argument by claiming divine inspiration and masqueraded his political goals by witnessing to himself as a spiritual worker.

“Every great and comprehensive theory which affects the foundations of human science, and which, consequently, influences the systems of philosophy, will, in the first place, not only further our theoretical views of the universe, but will also react on practical philosophy ethics, and the correlated provinces of religion and politics.” - Ernst Haeckel


Tacitus did NOT say that they were "racially conscious". He said that they were of unmixed stock. The reason for this is not to be found in any racial doctrine but their lack of proximity to other races! In fact have you actually read Germania?A recognition of differences between races is in itself a racial doctrine. It can be read in Akhenaten's Hymn to Aten and Plato's Critias.


The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'. the Teutons unlike the Egyptians (who DID encounter other races) did not live in close proximity to other races.Then what is racial segregation in America supposed to have been? It's indisputably racialism. It's tantamount to not sharing bus seats with black people.


Rosenberg was a racialist and his work is hardly free of subjectivity and bias. It is not a work that one could use to illustrate an argument objectively with although I have read it (from cover to cover) and occasionally refer to. The grip that the semitic religion of Christianity still has on 'Nordic souls' demonstrates my thesis is valid.He certainly didn't merit the title of a philosopher, but he had a good handle on the emotional energy he transcribed into his work. Despite my personal contempt for him, I must admit that it's a living, breathing work, much more inspiration than what a historian has to offer.


I notice that you chose to quote from a freemason, Pike!His affinity is irrelevant, Pike affirms the necessity of work and a continued existence after death. A positive attitude towards life matters more than belief.


The ancient Teutons DID use idols to represent their Gods. We know this from archaeological discoveries and literary references.That contradicts Tacitus' assertion.

“The Germans do not, however, deem it consistent with the divine majesty to imprison their gods within walls or represent them with anything like human features.”

What archaeologists dig up probably pertain to pre-Germanic peoples.

Besides, did Hitler pay respect to any idols or temples? No, he spent his youth in the woods and open fields. After watching a performance of Wagner's Rienzi, he climbed up a mountain and was said to have experienced something like a religious conversion which prompted him to become a politician.

“The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following: they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly... Their wont, however, is to ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains,” - Herodotus

“The [ancient German's] holy places are the woods and groves, and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence.” - Tacitus

Wuotans Krieger
Tuesday, December 4th, 2018, 07:56 PM
Icarus He is in some respects an amalgam, but not as portrayed by anti-Christian websites. He seems to be a composite of three different, contemporary individuals: a communist agitator, a revolutionary, and a reformer. The gospels may give some hint to at least two of their names: Jesus Barabbas (communist); Jesus, the disciple of John the Baptist (revolutionary). John the Baptist is "established" by the historian Josephus.

You are approaching the character of Jesus from the perspective of an amalgam of other historical persons. I am not doubting the validity of your interpretation but I am looking at it from a different perspective. The 'Christ' aspect of Jesus is most certainly a mishmash of mythological archetypes, mainly borrowed from Indo-European mythologies. There are several interesting books on this issue which I can recommend-Aryan Sun Myths. The Origin of Religions by Sarah E. Titcomb, introduction by Charles Morris, an old work from 1889 but still relevant and also Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled by Acharya S, published in 2004.
Josephus was not in a position to 'establish' the historicity of John the Baptist for he was not born until 37CE! Thus Josephus's 'evidence' can only be judged to be hearsay: it is not contemporary.


Icarus. What about Judaism which gave birth to both? An attack on Christianity is an attack on a proxy and injurious to the religious principle (if you don't provide a worthy substitute). An attack on Judaism, or the Old Testament, which is presently Christianity's basis of knowledge, and a wholesale condemnation on the Jewish people has more profit for people who really want to do away with Christianity and it's ethics ("philosopher" Kant) and worn out formulations for the deity (the New Order furnishes an example) and elitist priesthood (of which there is a colossal risk of paganism degenerating into. Monopolization of facts is a Jewish tendency).


Yes, I acknowledge that both Christianity and Islam are branches of the Judaism tree but it is not Judaism as such that has been imposed by force upon the peoples of northern Europe but Christianity. Indeed I would go further and say that Christianity has emasculated our peoples to a much greater extent than Islam or Judaism could ever have done.


Icarus
Cite some examples, I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Timothy W. Ryback. Neither List nor Liebenfels are mentioned in his book. A fatal omission?

Your favorite author Goodrick-Clarke said, “A single Lanz monograph, Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch (1926), stands among the surviving 2,000 volumes of Hider's personal library, but this is neither conclusive evidence that the book was read nor does it essentially relate to Lanz's ideology, being a later liturgical work.”


Hitler had 3 libraries and literally thousands of books. Not all of the books that Hitler read in his youth would still be in his possession at the age of 56. I have given away far more books than I now own and I have thousands on my shelves. One's tastes and reading habits change over the years. I have not read Ryback's book but I would doubt that his book actually catalogues all those works found in all of those libraries! Regarding von Liebenfels Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch: Das Gebetbuch der Ariosophen, Rassenmystiker und Antisimiten you are incorrect as the subtitle of the book indicates. Hitler therefore possessed a clearly Ariosophical work. It is a pity that you did not research this before you posted your comment!
One other example that I can make you aware of is Ernst Schertel's Magic: History, Theory, Practice which was heavily annotated by Hitler.


Icarus
You rave on and on about so-called facts being “established”. Well, it's also “established” that theosophy influenced Arisophy so it's necessary to make the connection.
Well he didn't bring it up in his private discussions either.

I do not need to make a 'connection' between Hitler and Theosophy as Theosophy had a direct influence on Ariosophy via the work and research of Guido von List. Hitler's private discussions were recorded in the 1940s. The period in which Hitler would have been exposed to Ariosophical work was in the 1910s! I very seldom mention in my private discussions events of some 30 years before!


Icarus
So Hitler had a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span in his reading? I'm merely emulating his reading methods. There's ample testimony of Hitler's faculty of concentration. It's what enabled him to exert influence over the German people. It has nothing to do with the supernatural or occultism.


YOU do not know what Hitler's 'reading methods' were! Indeed it is clear that Hitler did read books from cover to cover as many are heavily annotated. However that does not detract in any way from what I have said. Short attention span and lack of internal discipline! How do YOU know what forces and abilities Hitler drew upon to influence the masses?


Icarus
We're discussing Hitler's influences. Weikart wrote a whole book on the matter. Not only does he distance Hitler from Christianity (his primary goal), but also from paganism and occultism (he didn't have to).


Again you have clear difficulties in separating religion from the occult. Can you point out to me ANYWHERE in my posts where I have stated that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen?


Icarus
Public speeches were geared towards Christians up until the 1930s, after which he begins to emphasize self-help, self-reliance. This was not “sheer propaganda”. The maxim god helps those who helps themselves (antithesis to Christian teaching) is frequently invoked publicly, occurring even in the table talks. In one or two untranslated speeches, he explicitly identifies it with his religious belief.


None of this gainsays my argument that Hitler's apparent pandering to the Christian 'god' was purely for public consumption and was empty of any verity.


Icarus
And Kurlander just happens to be a popular Jewish surname.

I find it hard to take seriously someone who wants to make a movie adaptation of his own book:
http://mybookthemovie.blogspot.com/2...-monsters.html (http://mybookthemovie.blogspot.com/2017/07/eric-kurlanders-hitlers-monsters.html)
You seem to have rather an obsession for hunting 'Jewish' surnames! Dr Kurlander has a BA, MA and PhD. Are you as well qualified as that? Dr Kurlander is merely dreaming of making his book into a film. You seem to be taking this literally! Even an academic may dream! As far as his surname is concerned there is no evidence that this is solely or primarily a Jewish surname. The man's phenotype looks distinctly non-Jewish in my opinion. Using your 'logic' then one would have to assume that Alfred Rosenberg was also a 'Jew' then? Many Jewish looking surnames were used by non-Jews as well. Many of my paternal ancestors had Abram and Abraham as a surname which is a locational name from Lancashire in northwest England. Does that make me a 'Jew' also? My mother's surname was Bock from the Harz Mountains. There are Jews with that surname as well so again does that make me a 'Jew'?


Icarus
From Uwe Puschner's book (mentioned on the wiki):

“Sein Vater war der Generalstaatsanwalt Ludwig Wachler, seine Mutter die im jugendlichem Alter
von Judentum
zum Protestantismus konvertierte Marie Fürst.”

Wachler is stated as being an "anti-Semitic writer, dramatist and publicist". Whether his mother had any Jewish ancestry I am not in a position to confirm or deny but he was clearly voelkisch and anti-Semitic. Make of that what you will. I dare say that if you care to do any digging you will find plenty of people of some Jewish ancestry at the highest levels of the Third Reich and many were tolerated and patronised by the likes of Hitler if they had some merit. Not all Jews are racially Jewish but their ancestors were converted to Judaism centuries ago. If this is the case then how can someone who is neither racially, religiously or culturally Jewish be regarded as 'Jewish'?
Regarding Altschuler I still cannot find him in Goodrick-Clarke's book. On what page is he mentioned?


Icarus
You remind me of the apostle Paul, who put his private notions beyond argument by claiming divine inspiration and masqueraded his political goals by witnessing to himself as a spiritual worker.

“Every great and comprehensive theory which affects the foundations of human science, and which, consequently, influences the systems of philosophy, will, in the first place, not only further our theoretical views of the universe, but will also react on practical philosophy ethics, and the correlated provinces of religion and politics.” - Ernst Haeckel



I repeat-my goal is the spiritual re-awakening of the Germanic peoples, that they may hear the Call of the Gods. No political progress can be made without a spiritual and philosophical basis. This is one important lesson that we learn from the voelkisch awakening in late 19th century Germany and Austria.


Icarus
A recognition of differences between races is in itself a racial doctrine. It can be read in Akhenaten's Hymn to Aten and Plato's Critias.



The lesser or the greater hymn?
I do not doubt that ancient Egypt had a racial awareness for they clearly interacted with other diverse races but this was not the case in Germania. There is no evidence from Tacitus that Teutons were racially aware. They would not have entertained any such notions for they knew no one but people of their own race.


Icarus
Then what is racial segregation in America supposed to have been? It's indisputably racialism. It's tantamount to not sharing bus seats with black people.


Indeed in Germany Jesse Owens was not required to sit at the back of a bus! A man that was regarded as a hero until he returned to the USA! The USA is not Germania. Germania did not have African slaves or Red Indians living within its boundaries. Your attempted comparison of the two is faulty to say the least.


Icarus
He certainly didn't merit the title of a philosopher, but he had a good handle on the emotional energy he transcribed into his work. Despite my personal contempt for him, I must admit that it's a living, breathing work, much more inspiration than what a historian has to offer.

Why 'contempt'?


Icarus
His affinity is irrelevant, Pike affirms the necessity of work and a continued existence after death. A positive attitude towards life matters more than belief.


Ditto Kurlander and your unsubstantiated allegation that he is 'Jewish'!

Icarus

That contradicts Tacitus' assertion.


The Germans do not, however, deem it consistent with the divine majesty to imprison their gods within walls or represent them with anything like human features.


What archaeologists dig up probably pertain to pre-Germanic peoples.

Besides, did Hitler pay respect to any idols or temples? No, he spent his youth in the woods and open fields. After watching a performance of Wagner's Rienzi, he climbed up a mountain and was said to have experienced something like a religious conversion which prompted him to become a politician.

“The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following:
they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars
, and consider the use of them a sign of folly... Their wont, however, is to
ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains
,” - Herodotus


“The [ancient German's] holy places are the woods and groves
, and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence.” - Tacitus



I addressed this issue 4 years ago on my Celto-Germanic Culture, Myth and History blog: http://celto-germanic.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-use-of-images-of-gods-in-germanic.html
Tacitus NEVER travelled to Germania so the construction of his Germania is based on second hand and possibly third hand accounts. It is also clear that Tacitus wrote many of his historical work as a polemic on what he saw as Roman 'degeneracy'. Germania is a classic example of this.
Once again I have NEVER made the argument that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen. You keep misrepresenting or misinterpreting my arguments.

Terminus
Wednesday, December 5th, 2018, 09:18 AM
You are approaching the character of Jesus from the perspective of an amalgam of other historical persons. I am not doubting the validity of your interpretation but I am looking at it from a different perspective. The 'Christ' aspect of Jesus is most certainly a mishmash of mythological archetypes, mainly borrowed from Indo-European mythologies.Looks like we won't be able to get anywhere on this subject. No one else seems to want to make the case for Jesus' existence. I was hoping to furnish Christians with some interesting arguments to build upon. Guess I'll just drop it for now.


Yes, I acknowledge that both Christianity and Islam are branches of the Judaism tree but it is not Judaism as such that has been imposed by force upon the peoples of northern Europe but Christianity. Indeed I would go further and say that Christianity has emasculated our peoples to a much greater extent than Islam or Judaism could ever have done.I find it credulous that you consider Christianity as the greater threat when it's clearly on the wane. It IS in fact Judaism that has been imposed by force upon the Nordic peoples and the whole wide world.

How many authors shall I invoke for their indictment of Christianity as a direct form of Judaism? Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Haeckel, Giselher Wirsing, Coudenhove-Kalergi, Marx, Werner Sombart, Julian, Porphyry, Lucian of Samosota, etc. Even the Church Father Origen and Islam founder Mohammed made the connection.

Why do you think the classical authors (i.e. Julian, Porphyry, Celsus) found it necessary to criticize Judaism in their attacks on Christianity? Because Judaism is the de facto foundation of Christianity. Even the Jews testify of this and emphasize it in the media (i.e. the film Agora has a scene where a Jewish rabbi tears his prayer shawl and insists that Jesus was a Jew and what amounts to the declaration that the Christians owe them). Today's modern philosophy has deviated from this reliable tried and true method and is dangerously atheistic, even if it claims to uphold paganism, occultism, spirituality, etc.

Furthermore, occultists (i.e. Max Heindel, Alice A. Bailey) color their presentations in colorful Christian language with the specific aim of mixing out the Jews through assimilation. Also, they tend to look upon the Jewish Essenes in a rosy light (i.e. Edgar Cayce, Manly P. Hall, Rudolf Steiner). Occultists have usually set themselves against the German people. Leadbeater in The Hidden Side of Christian Festivals (https://cwleadbeater.wordpress.com/2016/11/06/leadbeater-on-world-war-i/) furnishes the best example. Having been swayed by WW1 atrocity propaganda, he attempted to justify the physical disappearance of Germans. It's interesting to read his conversation with German statesman Bismarck about WW1. Bismarck argued that Germany was closer to the hierarchical ideals than the democratic states.


Hitler had 3 libraries and literally thousands of books. Not all of the books that Hitler read in his youth would still be in his possession at the age of 56. I have given away far more books than I now own and I have thousands on my shelves. One's tastes and reading habits change over the years. I have not read Ryback's book but I would doubt that his book actually catalogues all those works found in all of those libraries!Kubizek never mentioned anything about Hitler reading occultist books in his youth. He said Hitler deferred to books about German myths, ergo books about German heroes.

"One's tastes and reading habits change over the years." So if he really had read occultist literature, he evidently dropped it very early.

Incidentally, he did read Goethe's Faust (he explicitly quotes a passage from it in Mein Kampf), which far surpasses all other occult literature in the first place. But I wonder how many occultists even acknowledge it's significance. Truly esoteric literature effects invention and discovery. I.e. Nikola Tesla being struck with the idea of the rotating magnetic field from meditating on Goethe's Faust. Or Thales of Miletus' maxim about magnets influencing William Gilbert, the father of electricity.


Regarding von Liebenfels Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch: Das Gebetbuch der Ariosophen, Rassenmystiker und Antisimiten you are incorrect as the subtitle of the book indicates. Hitler therefore possessed a clearly Ariosophical work. It is a pity that you did not research this before you posted your comment!And it's a pity you didn't read what Goodrick-Clarke wrote. It doesn't matter whether Hitler possessed a book. He was gifted plenty of them or only read them superficially (i.e. Rosenberg's Der Mythus).


One other example that I can make you aware of is Ernst Schertel's Magic: History, Theory, Practice which was heavily annotated by Hitler.Did you get that off the wiki, which links to an article from The Atlantic? You're exaggerating with the expression "heavily annotated" (which is probably from hearsay or an encyclopedia), which can apply to pretty much any book in his library. There is only one instance where Ryback specifically implies that and none of them involved the occult.


In this third section there is a considerable part devoted to nutrition and diet. In fact, there are probably a thousand books on this subject, many of them heavily marginated, those marginal comments including the vegetarian observation

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/05/hitlers-forgotten-library/302727/

One of the most heavily marked books is Magic: History, Theory and Practice (1923), by Ernst Schertel. When I typed the author's name into one Internet search engine, I scored eight hits, including sites on Satanism, eroticism, sadomasochism, and flagellation. When I typed his name into Google, I scored twenty-six hits, including sites on parapsychology, astrology, and diverse sexual practices. According to a Web site for Germany's sadomasochistic community, Schertel wrote numerous books on flagellation and eroticism, and was "a central figure" in the German nudist movement of the 1920s and 1930s.

This article from Ryback is clearly calculated to stigmatize Hitler as a sexual deviant. Why not read Ryback's actual book in order to confirm this?

Ryback mentions that,


Hitler has marked a passage in which Schertel cites Schleich, quoting almost verbatim from him: “Our body presents a collection of potential and kinetic world energies and extends beyond to other lineages through animals, plants and crystal down to the very beginning of things.” Hitler’s pencil traces the passage in the margin. “In our body rests the entire history of the world, beginning with the birth of the first star. Through our body flows the energies of the universe, from the eternal to the eternal. And these drive the mills of our existence.”

First of all, Schertel was merely quoting from the non-occultist Carl Ludwig Schleich, so it's not even his own original idea.

Ryback argues that Hitler reiterated this in his own words (and he identifies it as pantheistic, not occultist! Same conclusion as Weikart) in a December 1941 table talk conversion, but he overlooks that Hitler was talking about the Japanese view of afterlife, not his own private beliefs, as Richard C. Carrier (https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792) (although by no means unbiased and correct in his own conclusion) points out.


On page 43 [of Max Riedel's "Law of the World"], Hitler highlights a passage affirming what he had previously encountered in his readings of Schleich and Schertel: “The body, mind and soul do not belong to the individual, they belong to the universe.”

Again, this is pantheism, not occultism.

Even if Hitler had imbibed ideas from Schertel, that doesn't make him an occultist's disciple. He came across all kinds of zany and bizarre ideas (i.e. Odic force) which he took into consideration, he was merely open-minded. He even listened to a lecture from Einstein and was fascinated with a theory about electricity from possible Jew Goldzier. The only thing that's remotely occult which can be definitely "established" is his devotion to Hörbiger's theories, which is also attested to by Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler. It was not to snub Einstein.

Schopenhauer, who influenced Hitler, explicitly denounced pantheism, sometimes venturing that it was merely a polite term for atheism. It's well-known that Hitler had digested and quoted long passages from Schopenhauer, word for word.

Finally, I found absolutely no mention of Schertel in Goodrick-Clarke's books. So Schertel wasn't even considered a significant influence!

Terminus
Wednesday, December 5th, 2018, 10:22 AM
I do not need to make a 'connection' between Hitler and Theosophy as Theosophy had a direct influence on Ariosophy via the work and research of Guido von List. Hitler's private discussions were recorded in the 1940s. The period in which Hitler would have been exposed to Ariosophical work was in the 1910s! I very seldom mention in my private discussions events of some 30 years before!So you think by placing his alleged "discoveries" in a time frame where he himself produced no works, your private notions are out of reach and infallible?

Then explain Hitler's private notes from the 1920s, just about 10 years after this alleged period of occultic immersion. https://archive.org/stream/hitlers-letters-and-notes-werner-maser#page/n287/mode/2up He clearly derives both his anti-Semitism and racialism ("first people's history based on race") from the Old Testament history. This is also backed up by his 1922 speech "Why we are antisemites" where he answers that question by referencing the Old Testament (i.e. Gen. 3:15). Furthermore, his notes were drawn up in private, not public. Why would he have needed to conceal any reference to the occult (i.e. Lanz) here?


YOU do not know what Hitler's 'reading methods' were! Indeed it is clear that Hitler did read books from cover to cover as many are heavily annotated. However that does not detract in any way from what I have said. Short attention span and lack of internal discipline!

How do YOU know what forces and abilities Hitler drew upon to influence the masses?I do know, he mentioned it in Mein Kampf. Historians and former associates defer to his boasts about his "selective reading".

I heard reports from reliable confidants and witnesses (i.e. Otto Wagener, G. Ward Price), people who were actually standing next to Hitler in his oratory (i.e. Ernst Hanfstaengl) or in the enthused crowds of Germans (i.e. Leni Riefenstahl) and pieced it all together. Then I sought out examples from antiquity and direct statements from Hitler. Hitler's oratory required huge concentrations of energy for his concentration, which he was in a position to do in view of his abstinence from meat, alcohol, tobacco, and marriage. There is nothing supernatural or occult about it. I suppose you could say that there was something superphysical about it, as he reports that it was not always him doing the talking and Kubizek indicated that he had encountered a different Hitler in the Rienzi experience. Riefenstahl distinguishes between the private Hitler and the Hitler of the Sportspalast.


Again you have clear difficulties in separating religion from the occult. Can you point out to me ANYWHERE in my posts where I have stated that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen?You tend to blur out the distinction between paganism and occultism when it does not suit you. You clearly advocate paganism and your interests reflect that of paganism.


None of this gainsays my argument that Hitler's apparent pandering to the Christian 'god' was purely for public consumption and was empty of any verity.In the Table Talks, Hitler maintained that Christ was not a Jew and that Christ was a fighter up to the year 1944.

Also, you still haven't refuted this speech, which was never addressed to Christians and wasn't one of his early speeches. It also furnishes insight into Hitler's religious monism (or in theological terms, creatio ex materia) with the statement that suns and planets consist of the same one material, which is also reiterated in 1941 Table Talk entries October 14 and 24.

Hence the National Socialist Movement will not tolerate subversion by occult mystics in search of an afterlife. They are not National Socialists but something different, and in any event, they represent something that has nothing to do with us. - Hitler, September 6, 1938


You seem to have rather an obsession for hunting 'Jewish' surnames! Dr Kurlander has a BA, MA and PhD. Are you as well qualified as that? Dr Kurlander is merely dreaming of making his book into a film. You seem to be taking this literally! Even an academic may dream! As far as his surname is concerned there is no evidence that this is solely or primarily a Jewish surname. The man's phenotype looks distinctly non-Jewish in my opinion. Using your 'logic' then one would have to assume that Alfred Rosenberg was also a 'Jew' then? Many Jewish looking surnames were used by non-Jews as well. Many of my paternal ancestors had Abram and Abraham as a surname which is a locational name from Lancashire in northwest England. Does that make me a 'Jew' also? My mother's surname was Bock from the Harz Mountains. There are Jews with that surname as well so again does that make me a 'Jew'?Just being cautious. You and your hero Lanz seem to unconditionally accept anything that may be of avail to the cause. Even the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati made his careful background checks.

Let's hear from other Skadi posters about the man's phenotype before jumping to any conclusions.


Wachler is stated as being an "anti-Semitic writer, dramatist and publicist". Whether his mother had any Jewish ancestry I am not in a position to confirm or deny but he was clearly voelkisch and anti-Semitic. Make of that what you will. I dare say that if you care to do any digging you will find plenty of people of some Jewish ancestry at the highest levels of the Third Reich and many were tolerated and patronised by the likes of Hitler if they had some merit. Not all Jews are racially Jewish but their ancestors were converted to Judaism centuries ago. If this is the case then how can someone who is neither racially, religiously or culturally Jewish be regarded as 'Jewish'?
Regarding Altschuler I still cannot find him in Goodrick-Clarke's book. On what page is he mentioned?The liberal editors of wikipedia insist that he was a Jew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariosophy#Guido_von_List_Society_and_Hig h_Armanen_Order

In my pdf copy, it's printed page is 99, but the pdf's page is 110.


I repeat-my goal is the spiritual re-awakening of the Germanic peoples, that they may hear the Call of the Gods. No political progress can be made without a spiritual and philosophical basis. This is one important lesson that we learn from the voelkisch awakening in late 19th century Germany and Austria.How does one "hear call of the gods"?


The lesser or the greater hymn?
I do not doubt that ancient Egypt had a racial awareness for they clearly interacted with other diverse races but this was not the case in Germania. There is no evidence from Tacitus that Teutons were racially aware. They would not have entertained any such notions for they knew no one but people of their own race.Greater.

I find it strange that you reject racial consciousness being manifested specifically in ancient Germany. Hitler taught that the cultural creative ability was dormant in the ancient Germans. What is this expression referring to but racial consciousness in it's purest form?


Indeed in Germany Jesse Owens was not required to sit at the back of a bus! A man that was regarded as a hero until he returned to the USA! The USA is not Germania. Germania did not have African slaves or Red Indians living within its boundaries. Your attempted comparison of the two is faulty to say the least.You argued that "The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'." I refuted that with my example.


Why 'contempt'?He upholds Kant as a German Plato and dismisses Pythagoras as an Oriental occult phenomenon, tantamount to the modern theosophists.


Ditto Kurlander and your unsubstantiated allegation that he is 'Jewish'!I'll see if I can acquire a copy of his book so I can see for myself what he's on about.


Tacitus does contradict himself as elsewhere in Germania 40 he refers to the sacred grove of Nerthus and the implication is that She was represented by an image, cared for by Her priest. Perhaps Her image was more elaborate than that of the Pole Gods.Not necessarily a contradiction or even remotely an implication of an idol.

"The priest perceives the presence of the goddess in this holy of holies and attends her, in deepest reverence, as her cart is drawn by heifers."

"Their holy places are the woods and groves, and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence."


Once again I have NEVER made the argument that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen. You keep misrepresenting or misinterpreting my arguments.Then what was he? An occultist quack? A pantheist? You should make it more clear and explicit. Was he a direct disciple of Lanz or not?

Wuotans Krieger
Wednesday, December 5th, 2018, 12:47 PM
Icarus Looks like we won't be able to get anywhere on this subject. No one else seems to want to make the case for Jesus' existence. I was hoping to furnish Christians with some interesting arguments to build upon. Guess I'll just drop it for now.


You have produced no arguments, not even the standard ones which I was expecting. I am disappointed!



I find it credulous that you consider Christianity as the greater threat when it's clearly on the wane. It IS in fact Judaism that has been imposed by force upon the Nordic peoples and the whole wide world.


Christianity may be "on the wane" but its insidious influence can still be felt in the emasculated self-hating liberal views of the mass of people. Indeed the Churches have an influence still that is out of proportion to their numbers. I will cite just one example. Church of England Bishops are still allowed to sit in the House of Lords despite Anglicanism being a minority religion.

Icarus
How many authors shall I invoke for their indictment of Christianity as a direct form of Judaism? Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Haeckel, Giselher Wirsing, Coudenhove-Kalergi, Marx, Werner Sombart, Julian, Porphyry, Lucian of Samosota, etc. Even the Church Father Origen and Islam founder Mohammed made the connection.

I don't know why you are labouring this point. I accept that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.


Icarus Why do you think the classical authors (i.e. Julian, Porphyry, Celsus) found it necessary to criticize Judaism in their attacks on Christianity? Because Judaism is the de facto foundation of Christianity. Even the Jews testify of this and emphasize it in the media (i.e. the film Agora has a scene where a Jewish rabbi tears his prayer shawl and insists that Jesus was a Jew and what amounts to the declaration that the Christians owe them). Today's modern philosophy has deviated from this reliable tried and true method and is dangerously atheistic, even if it claims to uphold paganism, occultism, spirituality, etc.


See my previous comment!


Icarus Furthermore, occultists (i.e. Max Heindel, Alice A. Bailey) color their presentations in colorful Christian language with the specific aim of mixing out the Jews through assimilation. Also, they tend to look upon the Jewish Essenes in a rosy light (i.e. Edgar Cayce, Manly P. Hall, Rudolf Steiner). Occultists have usually set themselves against the German people. Leadbeater in The Hidden Side of Christian Festivals (https://cwleadbeater.wordpress.com/2016/11/06/leadbeater-on-world-war-i/) furnishes the best example. Having been swayed by WW1 atrocity propaganda, he attempted to justify the physical disappearance of Germans. It's interesting to read his conversation with German statesman Bismarck about WW1. Bismarck argued that Germany was closer to the hierarchical ideals than the democratic states.


What a strange remark! You seem to be of the misguided opinion that the term 'occultists' can be broadly applied as if one is talking about a single identifiable group. You really should not comment on something when you lack the prerequisite knowledge necessary to have an informed view just as you should not offer a criticism on books that you have not actually read but merely skimmed through.


Icarus Kubizek never mentioned anything about Hitler reading occultist books in his youth. He said Hitler deferred to books about German myths, ergo books about German heroes.


Kubizek lived with Hitler for a period of just 4.5 months from 22nd February 1908 to early July 1908. The contact between Hitler and von Liebenfels occurred in August 1909 after Hitler parted company with Kubizek. Hitler was given some free back copies of Ostara magazine and 2 Crowns for his tram back home. The fact that Hitler had asked to buy back copies is an indication that he wanted to obtain editions that were missing from his collection. the fact that Kubizek may not have mentioned this magazine is not evidence that Hitler did not have copies of it in his room when he lived with Kubizek. You need to bear in mind that Kubizek's book was not published until 1955, 47 years after his brief co-habitation with him.


Icarus "One's tastes and reading habits change over the years." So if he really had read occultist literature, he evidently dropped it very early.


Again you are misrepresenting what I have said. You also are totally unaware of the contents of Hitler's libraries. Look for a list or catalogue of his book collection and you will not find one. Also do not forget much of Hitler's property was stolen by the AlLies. I have already made you aware of Schertel's and von Liebenfels's books.


Icarus Incidentally, he did read Goethe's Faust (he explicitly quotes a passage from it in Mein Kampf), which far surpasses all other occult literature in the first place. But I wonder how many occultists even acknowledge it's significance. Truly esoteric literature effects invention and discovery. I.e. Nikola Tesla being struck with the idea of the rotating magnetic field from meditating on Goethe's Faust. Or Thales of Miletus' maxim about magnets influencing William Gilbert, the father of electricity.


LoL. Careful people may assume that YOU are an occultist too!

Icarus
And it's a pity you didn't read what Goodrick-Clarke wrote. It doesn't matter whether Hitler possessed a book. He was gifted plenty of them or only read them superficially (i.e. Rosenberg's Der Mythus).


I have read and re-read Goodrick-Clarke's book which is twice more than you have by your own admission!
Why are deliberately downplaying the significance of an Ariosophical work by von Liebenefels in Hitler's possession, especially as we know from von Liebenfels himself that Hitler had a collection of Ostara magazines when he was 20 years of age? It is clear that Goodrick-Clarke did not understand the significance of von Liebenfels's book as he neglected to refer to its full title which is indicative of its Ariosophical nature. I fail to see why anyone would have 'gifted' such a work to Hitler if they did not already know that he had a liking for the works of von Liebenfels. Also why would Hitler purchase a work like that and NOT read it? Your 'argument' makes no sense. Indeed you are ASSUMING without any evidence that it was a gift rather than a purchase by Hitler himself.


Icarus Did you get that off the wiki, which links to an article from The Atlantic? You're exaggerating with the expression "heavily annotated" (which is probably from hearsay or an encyclopedia), which can apply to pretty much any book in his library. There is only one instance where Ryback specifically implies that and none of them involved the occult.


I have read it and you may purchase a copy from Amazon too and read it yourself if you wish. Why are you denying plain evidence? Why are you so keen to distance Hitler's image from the occult? What are you so anxious about?



Icarus Ryback mentions that,
First of all, Schertel was merely quoting from the non-occultist Carl Ludwig Schleich, so it's not even his own original idea.

A strawman. Hitler had occult works in his library. I have given you 2 well known examples which cannot be disputed and nothing that you have written can contradict that plain fact.

Icarus
Ryback argues that Hitler reiterated this in his own words (and he identifies it as pantheistic, not occultist! Same conclusion as Weikart) in a December 1941 table talk conversion, but he overlooks that Hitler was talking about the Japanese view of afterlife, not his own private beliefs, as Richard C. Carrier (https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792) (although by no means unbiased and correct in his own conclusion) points out.
Again, this is pantheism, not occultism.


You are detracting from the point-AGAIN!


Icarus
Even if Hitler had imbibed ideas from Schertel, that doesn't make him an occultist's disciple. He came across all kinds of zany and bizarre ideas (i.e. Odic force) which he took into consideration, he was merely open-minded.
So what you are saying is he wasn't discerning? You admit to him having an open mind and then you deny him the capacity to accept or believe in unorthodox ideas? You appear to be contradicting yourself in your desperation to prove your unprovable point.

Icarus
He even listened to a lecture from Einstein and was fascinated with a theory about electricity from possible Jew Goldzier. The only thing that's remotely occult which can be definitely "established" is his devotion to Hörbiger's theories, which is also attested to by Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler. It was not to snub Einstein.

How 'multicultural' of him! And?


Icarus Schopenhauer, who influenced Hitler, explicitly denounced pantheism, sometimes venturing that it was merely a polite term for atheism. It's well-known that Hitler had digested and quoted long passages from Schopenhauer, word for word.

In the earlier passages of your post you argued that Hitler WAS influenced by 'pantheism' so now what are you arguing?
Icarus
Finally, I found absolutely no mention of Schertel in Goodrick-Clarke's books. So Schertel wasn't even considered a significant influence!

Why would Goodrick-Clarke mention it? Schertel's book is a general treatise on magick; it is not an Ariosophical work. It is also more than likely that Goodrick-Clarke in the 1980s was simply not aware of it. You really do ASSUME too much. Try relying on actual facts for once!

Wuotans Krieger
Wednesday, December 5th, 2018, 01:44 PM
Icarus So you think by placing his alleged "discoveries" in a time frame where he himself produced no works, your private notions are out of reach and infallible?Then explain Hitler's private notes from the 1920s, just about 10 years after this alleged period of occultic immersion. https://archive.org/stream/hitlers-letters-and-notes-werner-maser#page/n287/mode/2up He clearly derives both his anti-Semitism and racialism ("first people's history based on race") from the Old Testament history. This is also backed up by his 1922 speech "Why we are antisemites" where he answers that question by referencing the Old Testament (i.e. Gen. 3:15). Furthermore, his notes were drawn up in private, not public. Why would he have needed to conceal any reference to the occult (i.e. Lanz) here?

What exactly have Hitler's beliefs on race to do with the occult? Why are you conflating these two issues?


Icarus I do know, he mentioned it in Mein Kampf. Historians and former associates defer to his boasts about his "selective reading".


Where in Mein Kampf? Which historians? What has this to do with your criticism of books that you admit to not reading?


Icarus There is nothing supernatural or occult about it. I suppose you could say that there was something superphysical about it, as he reports that it was not always him doing the talking and Kubizek indicated that he had encountered a different Hitler in the Rienzi experience. Riefenstahl distinguishes between the private Hitler and the Hitler of the Sportspalast.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the practice of Hypnotism which Hitler had been trained to do both with mass audiences and on a one to one basis. Indeed Hitler himself had been hypnotised as part of his treatment for hysterical blindness in late 1918.


Icarus You tend to blur out the distinction between paganism and occultism when it does not suit you. You clearly advocate paganism and your interests reflect that of paganism.


Again you are misrepresenting what I have written. You clearly cannot distinguish between race, magick, the occult, religion and heathenism. You keep conflating these subjects and ascribing arguments to me that I have not made. Try and keep to the point! We are not arguing whether Hitler was a heathen or a pagan: I know that he wasn't but I do know that he had a deep interest in the occult and indeed this influence extended to Himmler and other leading figures in the Third Reich.

Icarus
In the Table Talks, Hitler maintained that Christ was not a Jew and that Christ was a fighter up to the year 1944.


Hitler was wrong. Jesus of Nazareth never existed, whether he be Jew or not. If he had have existed then according to the gospel accounts and the genealogies contained within them he would have been a Jew.


Icarus Also, you still haven't refuted this speech, which was never addressed to Christians and wasn't one of his early speeches. It also furnishes insight into Hitler's religious monism (or in theological terms, creatio ex materia) with the statement that suns and planets consist of the same one material, which is also reiterated in 1941 Table Talk entries October 14 and 24.

It is not relevant to address. Are you trying to make the argument that Hitler was a Christian? He believed in a nebulous divine 'providence' but I very much doubt that he had worked through this theology in his own mind. His concerns were more worldly than spiritual. His use of the occult was to achieve practical goals.


Icarus Hence the National Socialist Movement will not tolerate subversion by occult mystics in search of an afterlife. They are not National Socialists but something different, and in any event, they represent something that has nothing to do with us. - Hitler, September 6, 1938

A practical man. I never said that he was a mystic but he made use of ANYTHING including Astrology if it helped him to achieve practical goals. If that were not the case then do you think that he would have permitted Himmler to establish the Ahnenerbe at great public expense?

Icarus
Just being cautious. You and your hero Lanz seem to unconditionally accept anything that may be of avail to the cause. Even the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati made his careful background checks.

Yes we must of course measure a man's skull and check his hair and eye colouring and research his pedigree before we listen to his argument!


Icarus Let's hear from other Skadi posters about the man's phenotype before jumping to any conclusions.


It is a small forum these days and I don't think anyone would be interested but go ahead start a thread!

Icarus
The liberal editors of wikipedia insist that he was a Jew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariosophy#Guido_von_List_Society_and_Hig h_Armanen_Order
In my pdf copy, it's printed page is 99, but the pdf's page is 110.


But what is a 'Jew'? If one is a native European descended from people converted to Judaism and one is not religiously or culturally a Jew then what exactly is 'Jewish' about such an individual?


Icarus How does one "hear call of the gods"?


I would have thought that the answer is obvious for it is contained in your question. One LISTENS!



Icarus I find it strange that you reject racial consciousness being manifested specifically in ancient Germany. Hitler taught that the cultural creative ability was dormant in the ancient Germans. What is this expression referring to but racial consciousness in it's purest form?

Hitler was not an historian or any kind of academic. Tacitus's Germania has been misused many times to suit a particular political agenda. Now I want you to show me WHERE in Germania Tacitus stated that the ancient Teutons were 'racially conscious'! Indeed have you read Germania (from cover to cover)?


Icarus You argued that "The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'." I refuted that with my example.


NO, I did not argue that! Stop skimming through my posts instead of reading my statements in full as you keep ascribing things to me which I have not said! I accept that the ancient Egyptians WERE racially conscious. My argument is that ancient Teutons were not as they unlike the Egyptians did not encounter other races.


Icarus I'll see if I can acquire a copy of his book so I can see for myself what he's on about.

Good, it usually helps when criticising a man's work that one reads it first!


Icarus. Not necessarily a contradiction or even remotely an implication of an idol.

You are quoting and relying to your own words-I did not type them-you did!! Tacitus had no first hand knowledge of the religious beliefs of the Germanic peoples.


Icarus Then what was he? An occultist quack? A pantheist? You should make it more clear and explicit. Was he a direct disciple of Lanz or not?

He was a reader of Ostara magazine. This undoubtedly had an influence upon him and it is likely that as a result of that reading that he ascribed Manichaean values to different races. He appears to have believed in a concept of 'divine Providence'. There is no clear indication that he gave much thought to theology as he was a practical man that made use of anything that appeared to work and that included hypnotism and astrology.