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Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 12:22 AM
DISGUSTING BIBLE PASSAGES
From the Septuagint ('Greek') and KJV (English)
CANNIBALISM


Leviticus 26:29

ΚΑΙ ΦΑΓΕΣΘΕ ΤΑΣ ΣΑΡΚΑΣ ΤΩΝ ΥΙΩΝ ΥΜΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΣ ΣΑΡΚΑΣ ΤΩΝ ΘΥΓΑΤΕΡΩΝ ΥΜΩΝ ΦΑΓΕΣΘΕ.

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.


Deuteronomy 28:53

ΚΑΙ ΦΑΓΗ ΤΑ ΕΚΓΟΝΑ ΤΗΣ ΚΟΙΛΙΑΣ ΣΟΥ ΚΡΕΑ ΥΙΩΝ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΘΥΓΑΤΕΡΩΝ ΣΟΥ ΟΣΑ ΕΔΩΚΕΝ ΣΟΙ ΚΥΡΙΟΣ Ο ΘΕΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΣΤΕΝΟΧΩΡΙΑ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΘΛΙΨΕΙ ΣΟΥ Η ΘΛΙΨΕΙ ΣΕ Ο ΕΧΘΡΟΣ ΣΟΥ.

And thou shall eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the lord thy god hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee.



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CHILD MURDER


Deuteronomy 2:34

ΚΑΙ ΕΚΡΑΤΗΣΑΜΕΝ ΠΑΣΩΝ ΤΩΝ ΠΟΛΕΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΚΑΙΡΩ ΕΚΕΙΝΩ ΚΑΙ ΕΞΩΛΕΘΡΕΥΣΑΜΕΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΠΟΛΙΝ ΕΞΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑΣ ΑΥΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΑ ΤΕΚΝΑ ΑΥΤΩΝ ΟΥ ΚΑΤΕΛΙΠΟΜΕΝ ΖΩΓΡΕΙΑΝ.

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.


1 Samuel 15:3

ΚΑΙ ΝΥΝ ΠΟΡΕΥΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΤΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΑΜΑΛΗΚ ΚΑΙ ΙΕΡΙΜ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΝΤΑ ΤΑ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΟΥ ΠΕΡΙΠΟΙΗΣΗ ΕΞ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΞΟΛΕΘΡΕΥΣΕΙΣ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΘΕΜΑΤΙΕΙΣ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΝΤΑ ΤΑ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΟΥ ΦΕΙΣΗ ΑΠ' ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟΚΤΕΝΕΙΣ ΑΠΟ ΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΩΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΝΗΠΙΟΥ ΕΩΣ ΘΗΛΑΖΟΝΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΜΟΣΧΟΥ ΕΩΣ ΠΡΟΒΑΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΚΑΜΗΛΟΥ ΕΩΣ ΟΝΟΥ.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Psalms 137:9

ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ ΟΣΤΙΣ ΠΙΑΣΗ ΚΑΙ ΡΙΨΗ ΤΑ ΝΗΠΙΑ ΣΟΥ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΝ ΠΕΤΡΑΝ.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.



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RAPE YOUR FATHER'S SEX-SLAVES


2 Samuel 16:21

ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΧΙΤΟΦΕΛ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΒΕΣΣΑΛΩΜ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΕ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΑΣ ΠΑΛΛΑΚΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΑΣ ΚΑΤΕΛΙΠΕΝ ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΙΝ ΤΟΝ ΟΙΚΟΝ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΑΚΟΥΣΕΤΑΙ ΠΑΣ ΙΣΡΑΗΛ ΟΤΙ ΚΑΤΗΣΧΥΝΑΣ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΕΡΑ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΝΙΣΧΥΣΟΥΣΙΝ ΑΙ ΧΕΙΡΕΣ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΤΩΝ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ.

And Ahithophel said unto Absolom, Go in unto thy father’s concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father : then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.


2 Samuel 16:22

ΚΑΙ ΕΠΗΞΑΝ ΤΗΝ ΣΚΗΝΗΝ ΤΩ ΑΒΕΣΣΑΛΩΜ ΕΠΙ ΤΟ ΔΩΜΑ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΗΛΘΕΝ ΑΒΕΣΣΑΛΩΜ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΑΣ ΠΑΛΛΑΚΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΤ' ΟΦΘΑΛΜΟΥΣ ΠΑΝΤΟΣ ΙΣΡΑΗΛ.

So they spread Absolom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absolom went unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.



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NO VIAGRA FOR KING DAVID


1 Kings 1:1-4

1:1 ΚΑΙ Ο ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΔΑΥΙΔ ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΠΡΟΒΕΒΗΚΩΣ ΗΜΕΡΑΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΕΡΙΕΒΑΛΛΟΝ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΙΜΑΤΙΟΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΚ ΕΘΕΡΜΑΙΝΕΤΟ.

1:2 ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΟΝ ΟΙ ΠΑΙΔΕΣ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΖΗΤΗΣΑΤΩΣΑΝ ΤΩ ΚΥΡΙΩ ΗΜΩΝ ΤΩ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΟΝ ΝΕΑΝΙΔΑ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΑΣΤΗΣΕΤΑΙ ΤΩ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΑΙ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΘΑΛΠΟΥΣΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΟΙΜΗΘΗΣΕΤΑΙ ΜΕΤ' ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΡΜΑΝΘΗΣΕΤΑΙ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΗΜΩΝ Ο ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ.

1:3 ΚΑΙ ΕΖΗΤΗΣΑΝ ΝΕΑΝΙΔΑ ΚΑΛΗΝ ΕΚ ΠΑΝΤΟΣ ΟΡΙΟΥ ΙΣΡΑΗΛ ΚΑΙ ΕΥΡΟΝ ΤΗΝ ΑΒΙΣΑΚ ΤΗΝ ΣΩΜΑΝΙΤΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΗΝΕΓΚΑΝ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΑ.

1:4 ΚΑΙ Η ΝΕΑΝΙΣ ΚΑΛΗ ΕΩΣ ΣΦΟΔΡΑ ΚΑΙ ΗΝ ΘΑΛΠΟΥΣΑ ΤΟΝ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΑ ΚΑΙ ΕΛΕΙΤΟΥΡΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΩ ΚΑΙ Ο ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΟΥΚ ΕΓΝΩ ΑΥΤΗΝ.

Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat [erection]. Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, so that my lord the king may get heat. So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found AbiSHAG a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.



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INCEST


Genesis 19:31-36

19:31 ΕΙΠΕΝ ΔΕ Η ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΑ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΗΝ ΝΕΩΤΕΡΑΝ Ο ΠΑΤΗΡ ΗΜΩΝ ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΔΕΙΣ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ ΟΣ ΕΙΣΕΛΕΥΣΕΤΑΙ ΠΡΟΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΩΣ ΚΑΘΗΚΕΙ ΠΑΣΗ ΤΗ ΓΗ.

19:32 ΔΕΥΡΟ ΚΑΙ ΠΟΤΙΣΩΜΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΕΡΑ ΗΜΩΝ ΟΙΝΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΚΟΙΜΗΘΩΜΕΝ ΜΕΤ' ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΞΑΝΑΣΤΗΣΩΜΕΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΗΜΩΝ ΣΠΕΡΜΑ.

19:33 ΕΠΟΤΙΣΑΝ ΔΕ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΕΡΑ ΑΥΤΩΝ ΟΙΝΟΝ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΝΥΚΤΙ ΤΑΥΤΗ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΟΥΣΑ Η ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΑ ΕΚΟΙΜΗΘΗ ΜΕΤΑ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΣ ΤΗΝ ΝΥΚΤΑ ΕΚΕΙΝΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΚ ΗΔΕΙ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΚΟΙΜΗΘΗΝΑΙ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΣΤΗΝΑΙ.

19:34 ΕΓΕΝΕΤΟ ΔΕ ΤΗ ΕΠΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ Η ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΑ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΗΝ ΝΕΩΤΕΡΑΝ ΙΔΟΥ ΕΚΟΙΜΗΘΗΝ ΕΧΘΕΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΗΜΩΝ ΠΟΤΙΣΩΜΕΝ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΟΙΝΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΗΝ ΝΥΚΤΑ ΤΑΥΤΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΟΥΣΑ ΚΟΙΜΗΘΗΤΙ ΜΕΤ' ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΞΑΝΑΣΤΗΣΩΜΕΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΗΜΩΝ ΣΠΕΡΜΑ.

19:35 ΕΠΟΤΙΣΑΝ ΔΕ ΚΑΙ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΝΥΚΤΙ ΕΚΕΙΝΗ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΕΡΑ ΑΥΤΩΝ ΟΙΝΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΟΥΣΑ Η ΝΕΩΤΕΡΑ ΕΚΟΙΜΗΘΗ ΜΕΤΑ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΚ ΗΔΕΙ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΚΟΙΜΗΘΗΝΑΙ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΣΤΗΝΑΙ.

19:36 ΚΑΙ ΣΥΝΕΛΑΒΟΝ ΑΙ ΔΥΟ ΘΥΓΑΤΕΡΕΣ ΛΩΤ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΠΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΩΝ.

And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morning, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father [i.e., 'I fucked our father']: let us make him drink wine this night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.



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SELF-CASTRATION


Matthew 19:12


ΕΙΣΙ ΓΑΡ ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΙ ΟΙΤΙΝΕΣ ΕΚ ΚΟΙΛΙΑΣ ΜΗΤΡΟΣ ΕΓΕΝΗΘΗΣΑΝ ΟΥΤΩ. ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΙΝ ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΙ ΟΙΤΙΝΕΣ ΕΥΝΟΥΧΙΣΘΗΣΑΝ ΥΠΟ ΤΩΝ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ, ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΙΝ ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΙ ΟΙΤΙΝΕΣ ΕΥΝΟΥΧΙΣΑΝ ΕΑΥΤΟΥΣ ΔΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑΝ ΤΩΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΩΝ. Ο ΔΥΝΑΜΕΝΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΙΝ ΧΩΡΕΙΤΩ.
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. [i.e., "Cut your dick off, if you’ve got the balls."]



Any comments?

Awar
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 12:30 AM
With passages like these, who needs satanism :)

xakep
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Interesting

Agrippa
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 01:13 AM
Its of course the older, more realistic and more brutal part of the bible, the old Jewish testament.

Some parts are just ugly or funny stories, interesting to tell, but hard to believe in as something "which might be from god..." (or at least a reasonable human being)

Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 12:25 PM
A few more passages:

(Deuteronomy chapter 13, TEV)

12 "When you are living in the towns that the Lord your God gives you, you may hear 13 that some worthless people of your nation have misled the people of their town to worship gods that you have never worshiped before. 14 If you hear such a rumor, investigate it thoroughly; and if it is true that this evil thing did happen, 15 then kill all the people in that town and all their livestock too. Destroy that town completely. 16 Bring together all the possessions of the people who live there and pile them up in the town square. Then burn the town and everything in it as an offering to the Lord your God. It must be left in ruins forever and never again be rebuilt."

God of love speaking:

Amos chapter 4, NLT)

6 "I brought hunger to every city and famine to every town. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

7 "I kept the rain from falling when you needed it the most, ruining all your crops. I sent rain on one town but withheld it from another. Rain fell on one field, while another field withered away. 8 People staggered from one town to another for a drink of water, but there was never enough. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

9 "I struck your farms and vineyards with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured all your fig and olive trees. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

10 "I sent plagues against you like the plagues I sent against Egypt long ago. I killed your young men in war and slaughtered all your horses. The stench of death filled the air! But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

11 "I destroyed some of your cities, as I destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Those of you who survived were like half-burned sticks snatched from a fire. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

12 "Therefore, I will bring upon you all these further disasters I have announced. Prepare to meet your God as he comes in judgment, you people of Israel!"

(Ezekiel chapter 14, TEV)

12 The Lord spoke to me. 13 "Mortal man," he said, "if a country sins and is unfaithful to me, I will reach out and destroy its supply of food. I will send a famine and kill people and animals alike. 14 Even if those three men, Noah, Danel, and Job, were living there, their goodness would save only their own lives." The Sovereign Lord has spoken.

15 "Or I might send wild animals to kill the people, making the land so dangerous that no one could travel through it, 16 and even if those three men lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their own children. They would save only their own lives, and the land would become a wilderness.

17 "Or I might bring war on that country and send destructive weapons to wipe out people and animals alike, 18 and even if those three men lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their children, but only their own lives.

19 "If I send an epidemic on that country and in my anger take many lives, killing people and animals, 20 even if Noah, Danel, and Job lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their own children. Their goodness would save only their own lives."

(Ezekiel chapter 9, NLT)

1 Then the LORD thundered, "Bring on the men appointed to punish the city [of Jerusalem]! Tell them to bring their weapons with them!" 2 Six men soon appeared from the upper gate that faces north, each carrying a battle club in his hand. One of them was dressed in linen and carried a writer's case strapped to his side. They all went into the Temple courtyard and stood beside the bronze altar. 3 Then the glory of the God of Israel rose up from between the cherubim, where it had rested, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. And the LORD called to the man dressed in linen who was carrying the writer's case. 4 He said to him, "Walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who weep and sigh because of the sins they see around them."

5 Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! 6 Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple."

Genesis chapter 6, CEV)

5 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. 6 He was very sorry that he had made them, 7 and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

8 ... Noah was the only person who lived right and obeyed God. 11-12 God knew that everyone was terribly cruel and violent. 13 So he told Noah: Cruelty and violence have spread everywhere. Now I'm going to destroy the whole earth and all its people.

The Bible is loaded with passages describing in detail such disgusting topics as premature ejaculation (Leviticus 15:2-15; 22:3-5), wet dreams (Leviticus 15:16-18, 32), voyeurism (Leviticus 18:6-20); damaged testicles (Leviticus 21:20; Deuteronomy 23:1); people taking a dump in the middle of camp (Deuteronomy 23:12-14); hemorrhoids (1 Samuel 5:9; 6:4-5), people urinating on a wall (1 Samuel 25:22; 26:34; 1 Kings 14:10; 16:11; 21:22; 2 Kings 9:8), people eating their own feces and drinking their urine (2 Kings 18:27; Isaiah 36:12; Ezekiel 4:12, 15), menstruation (just about all of Leviticus), etc., etc,etc.

Agrippa
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 01:18 PM
Did you find this passages on your own or is it from a side? If its from a side, can you post the link please?

Johannes de León
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 01:29 PM
Did you find this passages on your own or is it from a side? If its from a side, can you post the link please? http://ethnikoi.org/bibleshit.html

Just pick some unusual sentence and google for it, you will find the source. ;)

Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 01:57 PM
http://ethnikoi.org/bibleshit.html

Just pick some unusual sentence and google for it, you will find the source. ;)Google is my source for this passages,but nothing can be compared to reading from the original ;)

Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 02:23 PM
There is an excellent book about these passages,written by the Greek layer Konstantinos Plevris,"Let's talk about Hebrews!".The comments of the author are hillarious.
Christian priests are avoiding even mention these passages.They promote the "God of love" of new testament.The old testament is only remembered when religious crimes must be excused:"God ordered..."
But you cant have new tesmament or quran without old testament.It is the basis of christianism and islam.The same desert god.
I just hope one day will leave Europe and return where he belongs.

Another link: http://www.evilbible.com

Taras Bulba
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Yawn! Is this the best you can do? :eyes





Christian priests are avoiding even mention these passages.

Yes maybe because the old law is now obsolete with the coming of Christ. Ever thought of that?



But you cant have new tesmament or quran without old testament.

The Old Testament is not in the Quran.



It is the basis of christianism and islam.The same desert god.
I just hope one day will leave Europe and return where he belongs.

:rotfl ROTFL!

Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 03:51 PM
Yawn! Is this the best you can do? :eyes
You need more?





Yes maybe because the old law is now obsolete with the coming of Christ. Ever thought of that?Oh,This means that orhodox/catholic/protestant churches has removed the book of "old law" from their holy books.How i could miss that?Can you remind me when it was happened? :P




The Old Testament is not in the Quran. But its heroes are prophets of islam




:rotfl ROTFL!Its good that you have find alternative ways of amusement,since premarriage relationships are forbidden to you :P :P :P

Taras Bulba
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 04:02 PM
You need more?

Provide as many as you want. If you wish, I can post facts about certain practices among European pagans. I especially love the one about how the Romans fully allowed Jews to own slaves(ie Europeans as slaves) and how that practice came to an abrupt end once Christianity became more influential. :P

"Paradoxically, the very same Rome that was now bent on crushing the Jews was largely responsible for their survival. However Christian the empire may have become, it never quite eradicated many of the legacies of its Latin past. Paramount among these was the Roman reference for law and precedent, which dictated the right of the Jews to live as Jews with their own judges, teachers, and institutions."
--John A. Garraty, Peter Gay The Columbia History of the World pg.432

Ahhhh.....the glory that was Rome! :eyes



Oh,This means that orhodox/catholic/protestant churches has removed the book of "old law" from their holy books.How i could miss that?Can you remind me when it was happened? :P

Your understanding of this issue is clearly lacking! :eyes



But its heroes are prophets of islam

So? The Old Testament is not in the Koran. Ironically, Adrian Hastings points this as major reason why Islam is extremely anti-nationalist, while Christianity is not! How ironic that nationalism in the Middle East first arosed in countries with significant Christian minorities(Egypt and Palestine). Hell even many of the major leaders of the Baath regime like Aziz were Christian. Arab nationalism cant be Islamic, but either secularist or in the case of the Lebanon, Christian in nature.



Its good that you have find alternative ways of amusement,since premarriage relationships are forbidden to you :P :P :P

I find it amusing because you dont realize that would mean the death of Europe. Gramsci clearly spelled in out in his writings that the de-Christianization of Europe was the key to its downfall.

Alkman
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Provide as many as you want. If you wish, I can post facts about certain practices among European pagans. I especially love the one about how the Romans fully allowed Jews to own slaves(ie Europeans as slaves) and how that practice came to an abrupt end once Christianity became more influential. :P

"Paradoxically, the very same Rome that was now bent on crushing the Jews was largely responsible for their survival. However Christian the empire may have become, it never quite eradicated many of the legacies of its Latin past. Paramount among these was the Roman reference for law and precedent, which dictated the right of the Jews to live as Jews with their own judges, teachers, and institutions."
--John A. Garraty, Peter Gay The Columbia History of the World pg.432

Ahhhh.....the glory that was Rome! :eyes
You seem to forget that i'm not a Roman nor the nations that were slaughtered after christian domination.You see,the world is not divided to christians and non christians."Roman attrocities" are used to excuse christian slaughters against Gentiles all over Europe.Pathetic.
Now if we can skip the christian cry-out and the "millions of crusified",the ONLY REAL (Marta Sordi) persecution against christians were the one made by Gallerius.The martyrs of this "great persecutation"were 86 christians in Palestine and about 3500 in the whole Empire(W.H.C. Frend).Note that most of the times emperors had to punish christian sects for slaughter one another(read Julian's letters for example)
Christians would "spread the words of their Lord" one way or another.



Your understanding of this issue is clearly lacking! :eyesThis is my understanding of this issue:Hebrews beleived in one god promising that will save them by sending his "Mesiah"(old testament).Jehova kept his promise and sent his son,to save jews and the rest of the world(new testament)New testament is the sequel,it is about the SAME god in both books.When christianism was established in 42 A.C From members of Judaic community of Antiochy everybody cosider "Galileans",christians,as another Jewish sect.New testament completed for Galileans the old testament,it didnt erase anything




So? The Old Testament is not in the Koran. Ironically, Adrian Hastings points this as major reason why Islam is extremely anti-nationalist, while Christianity is not! How ironic that nationalism in the Middle East first arosed in countries with significant Christian minorities(Egypt and Palestine). Hell even many of the major leaders of the Baath regime like Aziz were Christian. Arab nationalism cant be Islamic, but either secularist or in the case of the Lebanon, Christian in nature. Christianism was the first melting-pot in human history,how could it support nationalism?Europeans are more nationalists because they are less religious fanatics than Arabs.In other words Arabs are first muslims and then Arabs.




I find it amusing because you dont realize that would mean the death of Europe. Gramsci clearly spelled in out in his writings that the de-Christianization of Europe was the key to its downfall.Europe existed before christianism.De-christianization of Europe is the key for development.Europe has been more developed than the rest of the world until and after Middle agesare most developed because they are less christians than arabs are muslims.There are no true differences between a true christian,a true muslim or a true Jew. Greek-Roman
civilasation and the ideas of Rennaisance is the heritage of Europe that must been preserved,not planted Middle-Eastern religions

Stríbog
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Yes maybe because the old law is now obsolete with the coming of Christ. Ever thought of that?


Common Christian cop-out. Why would a "just, loving God" ever impose these repulsive codes in the first place, or allow them to be associated with him?

Taras Bulba
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 05:55 PM
You seem to forget that i'm not a Roman nor the nations that were slaughtered after christian domination.

Like what?



You see,the world is not divided to christians and non christians."Roman attrocities" are used to excuse christian slaughters against Gentiles all over Europe.Pathetic.

And you deny the brutal nature of Roman atrocities. pathetic!



Christianism was the first melting-pot in human history,

Wrong! Both the Roman Empire and Hellenistic civilization were far more melting pots than Medieval Europe ever was!



how could it support nationalism?

Very simple. Christ acknolwedges the existance of nations and even tells the apostles to "go unto all nations". Plus the foundation of the Church is Pentecost, where God gives the apostles the ability to preach the Gospel the nations. Thus God acknowledges the existance of nations. Plus the Book of Revealation makes note that the glory of the nations are to be brought into Christ';s kingdom for all time. So even from a theological point of view, Christians are nationalists. Adrian Hastings even notes in his book how Christianity and its leaders took the very existance of nations for granted for several centuries.



Europeans are more nationalists because they are less religious fanatics than Arabs.

Nonsense! Europeans are now less nationalistic because of the decline of their faith. Yet ironically even the secular proponents of nationalism, like Rousseau, pointed to the example of Moses as the ideal nation-builder. Also as Adrian Hastings points out, the major turning points in many European nations in the development of their identites were their conversion to Christianity. As he points out, the conversion of France to the faith marked the end of the turmoil between Gauls, Germanics, Latins, etc and the birth of France as a nation. So much so that even secular minded nationalists today celebrate the event. Not to mention the great importance St. Patrick had in forging Ireland's national identity.

Paganism was highly tribalistic in nature, an impediment to national unity. For example, a Spartan saw himself a Spartan first, Greek second. Christianity changed that. All over Europe, Christianity brought the unification of nations(like in Scandinavia and Russia), following the example of the 12 tribes of Israel in uniting to form a nation. Indeed Hastings points to the strong influence the example of the Israelite nation had in forging European concepts of nationhood and nationalism. Even Anthony D. Smith remarks that it is because of Christianity that nationalist ideologies first emerged in Europe instead of elsewhere.



In other words Arabs are first muslims and then Arabs.

Yes and Islam is anti-nationalist. Christianity is not!

In fact if it werent for Christianity, Europe would have been as united against the Mongols and Arabs. Indeed the concept of a united Europe and a white race first emerges under Christianity. A pagan Greek had more in common with an Egyptian than a Gaul or Germanic.



Europe existed before christianism.

Yes and? Paganism was of such shallow nature that it hindered European developement.



De-christianization of Europe is the key for development.

Facts speak otherwise. Ironic is that when the faith declined in Europe, the arrival of non-European immigrants started and our birth-rates collasped. How nice!



Europe has been more developed than the rest of the world until and after Middle agesare most developed because they are less christians than arabs are muslims.There are no true differences between a true christian,a true muslim or a true Jew. Greek-Roman
civilasation and the ideas of Rennaisance is the heritage of Europe that must been preserved,not planted Middle-Eastern religions

:rotfl ROTFL! Medieval Europe was more developed than Greece and Rome, and it was only because of the Christian church that the Renaisance was possible. In fact we can thank the church for developing Europe further.

"The contribution of the religious culture of the early Middle Ages to the scientific movement was thus one of preservation and transmission. The monastaries served as the transmitters of literacy and a thin version of classical traditions(including science or natural philosophy) through a period when literacy and scholarship were severly threatened. Without them, Western Europe would not have more science, but less."
--David C. Lindberg, "The Beginnings of Western Science: The European Scientific Tradition in Philosophical, Religious, and Institutional Context, 600 BC to AD 1450" pg 157

‘It was not the case that the dominance of the lay and clerical aristocracy had a merely negative, inhibiting effect on the field of technology, in some areas it needs and tastes favoured a certain progress. The clergy and above all the monks were obliged to have few contacts as possible with the outside world, including economic relations, and above all they desired to be freed from material tasks to have time for the Opus Dei and for properly spiritual occupations (offices and prayers), and for their work of charity, which obliged them to provide for the economic needs not only of their numerous familia but also for the poor and of wandering beggars by distributing foodstuff. This encouraged them to develop equipment of a certain technical standard. If one is looking for the earliest mills, water mills, or for the progress in farming techniques, one often sees the religious orders in the vanguard. It was not a coincidence if here during the early Middle Ages men attributed the invention of the watermill to a saint who introduced it into a region, for example St. Orens of Auch who had a mill setup at St. Gabriel on the Durancole in the 6th century….As we have seen, the Church encouraged improvements in the measurement of time for the needs of ecclesiastical computation. The building of churches – the first great buildings of the Middle Ages – gave a stimulus to technical progress, not only in building techniques, but also in the tools used, in methods of transportation, and in the auxiliary skills such as glasswork.”
--Jacques Le Goff Medieval Civilization 400-1500 pg. 198

Oh and the fathers of the Renaisance were devout Christians, even the humanist thinkers.

Thank you for proving your ignorance on this topic! :eyes

Taras Bulba
Friday, July 16th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Common Christian cop-out. Why would a "just, loving God" ever impose these repulsive codes in the first place, or allow them to be associated with him?

Do you mind telling how singificantly different those laws were to other cultures at the time? Indeed Hammurabi's Code is more brutal.

Rhydderch
Wednesday, June 1st, 2005, 01:52 PM
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.This is a prophecy. God said that Israel's rejection of him would result in them committing horrid, unnatural sins, and it did. The Syrians besieged Samaria and two women ate the son of one of these women.
When the Romans laid seige to Jerusalem some inhabitants turned to cannibalism.


Psalms 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.And the preceding line is, Blessed shall he be that thee rewards as thou to us hast done.


2 Samuel 16:21

And Ahithophel said unto Absolom, Go in unto thy father’s concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father : then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.The Bible doesn't shrink from describing man's evil nature and deeds.


1 Kings 1:1-4

Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat [erection].Rubbish. It means exactly what it looks like it means: HEAT. David was an elderly man, near death, and he was losing his natural heat, so much so that even an abundance of blankets would not make him warm; so his men chose to get him another wife, whose body heat would warm him.
But bear in mind that a book does'nt necessarily approve of something it describes.


Genesis 19:31-36

And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morning, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father [i.e., 'I fucked our father']: let us make him drink wine this night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.Yet another example of mankind's sin.


Matthew 19:12

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. [i.e., "Cut your dick off, if you’ve got the balls."]Receive the saying, not "receive eunuchhood".

Rhydderch
Wednesday, June 1st, 2005, 02:43 PM
A few more passages:

(Deuteronomy chapter 13, TEV)

12 "When you are living in the towns that the Lord your God gives you, you may hear 13 that some worthless people of your nation have misled the people of their town to worship gods that you have never worshiped before. 14 If you hear such a rumor, investigate it thoroughly; and if it is true that this evil thing did happen, 15 then kill all the people in that town and all their livestock too. Destroy that town completely. 16 Bring together all the possessions of the people who live there and pile them up in the town square. Then burn the town and everything in it as an offering to the Lord your God. It must be left in ruins forever and never again be rebuilt."

God of love speaking:

Amos chapter 4, NLT)

6 "I brought hunger to every city and famine to every town. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

7 "I kept the rain from falling when you needed it the most, ruining all your crops. I sent rain on one town but withheld it from another. Rain fell on one field, while another field withered away. 8 People staggered from one town to another for a drink of water, but there was never enough. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

9 "I struck your farms and vineyards with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured all your fig and olive trees. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

10 "I sent plagues against you like the plagues I sent against Egypt long ago. I killed your young men in war and slaughtered all your horses. The stench of death filled the air! But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

11 "I destroyed some of your cities, as I destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Those of you who survived were like half-burned sticks snatched from a fire. But still you wouldn't return to me," says the LORD.

12 "Therefore, I will bring upon you all these further disasters I have announced. Prepare to meet your God as he comes in judgment, you people of Israel!"

(Ezekiel chapter 14, TEV)

12 The Lord spoke to me. 13 "Mortal man," he said, "if a country sins and is unfaithful to me, I will reach out and destroy its supply of food. I will send a famine and kill people and animals alike. 14 Even if those three men, Noah, Danel, and Job, were living there, their goodness would save only their own lives." The Sovereign Lord has spoken.

15 "Or I might send wild animals to kill the people, making the land so dangerous that no one could travel through it, 16 and even if those three men lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their own children. They would save only their own lives, and the land would become a wilderness.

17 "Or I might bring war on that country and send destructive weapons to wipe out people and animals alike, 18 and even if those three men lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their children, but only their own lives.

19 "If I send an epidemic on that country and in my anger take many lives, killing people and animals, 20 even if Noah, Danel, and Job lived there-as surely as I, the Sovereign Lord, am the living God-they would not be able to save even their own children. Their goodness would save only their own lives."

(Ezekiel chapter 9, NLT)

1 Then the LORD thundered, "Bring on the men appointed to punish the city [of Jerusalem]! Tell them to bring their weapons with them!" 2 Six men soon appeared from the upper gate that faces north, each carrying a battle club in his hand. One of them was dressed in linen and carried a writer's case strapped to his side. They all went into the Temple courtyard and stood beside the bronze altar. 3 Then the glory of the God of Israel rose up from between the cherubim, where it had rested, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. And the LORD called to the man dressed in linen who was carrying the writer's case. 4 He said to him, "Walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who weep and sigh because of the sins they see around them."

5 Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! 6 Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple."

Genesis chapter 6, CEV)

5 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. 6 He was very sorry that he had made them, 7 and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

8 ... Noah was the only person who lived right and obeyed God. 11-12 God knew that everyone was terribly cruel and violent. 13 So he told Noah: Cruelty and violence have spread everywhere. Now I'm going to destroy the whole earth and all its people.These passages are not surprising to anyone who believes in Hell. The difference between the Old and New Testaments is that in the Old, God used more physical situations to represent the spiritual; physical punishments to represent the spiritual, because, the fact that Christ had not come, it was harder to see the spiritual in its full light without using physical representations, and indeed the New Testament still cannot be fully understood without the Old.
The God of the Old Testament is no different in nature from that of the new, and Jesus himself mentioned Hell more than any Old Testament prophet.


voyeurism (Leviticus 18:6-20)Nope. The words used there are in fact a euphemism for what the Bible more frequently terms by another euphemism: "lie with....".
The Bible generally uses euphemisms; not so disgusting after all.


people taking a dump in the middle of camp (Deuteronomy 23:12-14);It doesn't describe that, it forbids it, for obvious reasons of hygene; it was not an unnecessary thing to say.


people urinating on a wall (1 Samuel 25:22; 26:34; 1 Kings 14:10; 16:11; 21:22; 2 Kings 9:8),This is not described either; it means "all the men (i.e. males)", and used (so far as I remember) as a deliberately disdainful term by someone expressing his dislike of those people.


people eating their own feces and drinking their urine (2 Kings 18:27; Isaiah 36:12; Ezekiel 4:12, 15).Again, this is not described. It was a figurative term, and, at least in the case I'm thinking of, used by an evil man, being intentionally crude.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, June 1st, 2005, 02:56 PM
Christianism was the first melting-pot in human history,how could it support nationalism?

If you mean it was the first Mediterranean cult that allowed converts from any nation, then youre wrong. That distinction is usually granted to Orphism though of course theres no way of knowing if Orphism was the first. Through the Orphic link to Dionysios they were associated with Christianity anyway.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, June 1st, 2005, 03:39 PM
So? The Old Testament is not in the Koran. Ironically, Adrian Hastings points this as major reason why Islam is extremely anti-nationalist, while Christianity is not!

Modern state nationalism is only something of the Enlightenment. If youre trying to say that Islam is opposed to ethnic preservation, because of accepting Islam, then youre wrong.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, June 2nd, 2005, 02:20 AM
Modern state nationalism is only something of the Enlightenment. If youre trying to say that Islam is opposed to ethnic preservation, because of accepting Islam, then youre wrong.

OK then, please tell me why they accept anyone for marriage, etc. just so long as they are Muslim. They all march around that cylinder in Mecca, arm in arm in apparent brotherhood. Christians claim this type of unity but in practice, in the USA at least, Blacks and Whites attend different church locations even if they are in the very same faith. The Muslims seem to walk the walk much better than Christians do concering the stated attitude that once in their religion, they are all equal regardless of race or nationality.

Rhydderch
Thursday, June 2nd, 2005, 03:35 AM
The Muslims seem to walk the walk much better than Christians do concering the stated attitude that once in their religion, they are all equal regardless of race or nationality.Muslims have traditionally had a deep despising for black people, and definitely don't consider them socially equal. However, I think there is a great deal of variation in this respect among Muslims; the Islamic extremists tend to overlook their nation and concentrate on religious unity, although this is partly because most of the Islamic world is Arabic-speaking, so their is a cultural unity there, and they consider themselves not only Muslim brothers, but Arab brothers as well. Turks though, tend to be more nationalistically minded.

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, June 2nd, 2005, 09:06 AM
OK then, please tell me why they accept anyone for marriage, etc. just so long as they are Muslim.

No thats not true. Islamic societies in the Mediterranean have preserved the ethnic communitarianism of earler Mediterranean societies, because West Asians dont like to outmarry.

Its also untrue that Islam replaced folk religions, because local practices around the Islamic region are related to pre-Christian beliefs and practices.

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, June 2nd, 2005, 09:52 AM
No thats not true. Islamic societies in the Mediterranean have preserved the ethnic communitarianism of earler Mediterranean societies, because West Asians dont like to outmarry.

Its also untrue that Islam replaced folk religions, because local practices around the Islamic region are related to pre-Christian beliefs and practices. The Islamic scribes would put you in the wrong. Islam like Christianity surely absorbed pre-existing folk religions and customs, but while they might tolerate these elements to maintain the coherence of and grip on the umma, it remains a conditional tolerance and a strategic move, but they are not integral nor interchangable to Islam faith.

The scribes were not fooled by Sufism, hence why before Sufis grew closer to orthodox Islam and became its spies and hordes to crush heathen faith in the Middle East, they were viled as crypto-heathen heretics.
The response by Islamicists was not different as to the Buddhists in East Iran: erase their existence and they would have succeeded if al-Gazali hadn't in 1100 cleaned up Sufism in service of Islam.
What's good about Sufism is of heathen/folkish origin, everything else is doctrinal garbage.

Where folk religion survives and moulded regionally, it only proves that the ethnos is more resilient than any imported religion, but to fully awake again like the peoples of East Europa after decades of communist suppression and vassalage to a superpower like the Soviet Union and carve out their destiny is a long-winding road still not taken by these peoples, although there's in intellectual midsts a movement to fold back to the pre-Islamic and pre-Arab identity of the Circummediterrenean Hamites and Semites; they got all my sympathies and I will stretch my hand in friendship unto these marvellous rebels to help further their cause.

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, June 2nd, 2005, 01:56 PM
The Islamic scribes would put you in the wrong. Islam like Christianity surely absorbed pre-existing folk religions and customs, but while they might tolerate these elements to maintain the coherence of and grip on the umma, it remains a conditional tolerance and a strategic move, but they are not integral nor interchangable to Islam faith.

The same thing is true of all state-sponsored religions, but people often assume that Islam destroyed anything pre-Islamic in contrast to the eastern Roman Empire, which had preserved paganism.

herr georg
Friday, August 5th, 2005, 01:29 PM
HA! 'Jewish old testament'
you know they'd make you beleive that anything is Jewish these days,
but the jews and the israelites/hebrews are not the same people,
and those disgusting stories are a result of the bastardisation of the old testament by the jews, thats one of the things about islam that makes sense to me, the part where the jews bastardized certain texts.
Muhammed probably knew about this.
And I think its pretty darn obvious when you look in the bible, isn't there something in there about men penetrating their daughters with their fingers? How truly feral,
but perhaps nothing of the likes of the talmud.