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blut-ehre
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Just as the name says , I was wondering what to the people of skadi; a gentleman was classified as? Please no dictionary definitions :D just whatever you can think of.

Taras Bulba
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Just as the name says , I was wondering what to the people of skadi; a gentleman was classified as? Please no dictionary definitions :D just whatever you can think of.
Someone who lives by the eternal ethics of chivalry and honor. He's generous to others; helps those in need. Devoted to his family, peers, nation, and God. Be prepared to defend his honour, the honour of others, and the honour of his folk.

I guess thats my idea of a gentleman off the topic of my head.

Taras Bulba
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Something that goes into more details

http://www.victorianstation.com/gentle.html

A Gentleman

The Victorian gentleman must have been really something to behold if the following article is true. For any woman who has dreamed of the "knight in shining armor", the perfect man, or just a man who would give up the TV remote control, you have found him here. Remember, these gentleman mostly existed in the Victorian era. Few of us may be lucky enough to find one in the 20th century. For those of you still looking, you may get some good tips on things to look for in a man. For those of you who are married, take heart and remember, your husband may not resemble the "Victorian Gentleman", but you love him anyway.



Compare Newman's portrait of the gentleman to those found in discussions of the concept of gentleman by Gaskell and other authors as well as specific characters in Browning, Dickens, and Trollope.



What is a Gentleman?

It is almost a definition of a gentleman to say he is one who never inflicts pain. This description is both refined and, as far as it goes, accurate. He is mainly occupied in merely removing the obstacles which hinder the free and unembarrassed action of those about him; and he concurs with their movements rather than takes the initiative himself.


His benefits may be considered as parallel to what are called comforts or conveniences in arrangements of a personal nature: like an easy chair or a good fire, which do their part in dispelling cold and fatigue, though nature provides both means of rest and animal heat without them.


The true gentleman in like manner carefully avoids whatever may cause ajar or a jolt in the minds of those with whom he is cast; -- all clashing of opinion, or collision of feeling, all restraint, or suspicion, or gloom, or resentment; his great concern being to make every one at their case and at home.


He has his eyes on all his company; he is tender towards the bashful, gentle towards the distant, and merciful towards the absurd; he can recollect to whom he is speaking; he guards against unseasonable allusions, or topics which may irritate; he is seldom prominent in conversation, and never wearisome. He makes light of favours while he does them, and seems to be receiving when he is conferring.


He never speaks of himself except when compelled, never defends himself by a mere retort, he has no ears for slander or gossip, is scrupulous in imputing motives to those who interfere with him, and interprets everything for the best.


He is never mean or little in his disputes, never takes unfair advantage, never mistakes personalities or sharp sayings for arguments, or insinuates evil which he dare not say out. From a long-sighted prudence, he observes the maxim of the ancient sage, that we should ever conduct ourselves towards our enemy as if he were one day to be our friend.


He has too much good sense to be affronted at insults, he is too well employed to remember injuries, and too indolent to bear malice. He is patient, forbearing, and resigned, on philosophical principles; he submits to pain, because it is inevitable, to bereavement, because it is irreparable, and to death, because it is his destiny. If he engages in controversy of any kind, his disciplined intellect preserves him from the blunder. [From The Idea of a University, 1852]

Moody
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 06:15 PM
A gent-leman is he who is well-born [gen-].
So originally the gentleman was he of noble blood and birth.

In Shakespeare's Henry V, the king promises those brave, but ignoble, fighters of his that he will "gentle their condition".
So already, the notion was had that one could be raised to the gentry even if one were low-born.

I suggest that this relativises the concept. Essentially a gentleman should be a man of good Blood.
Handsome is as handsome does.

Taras Bulba
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 06:31 PM
A gent-leman is he who is well-born [gen-].
So originally the gentleman was he of noble blood and birth.

In Shakespeare's Henry V, the king promises those brave, but ignoble, fighters of his that he will "gentle their condition".
So already, the notion was had that one could be raised to the gentry even if one were low-born.

I suggest that this relativises the concept. Essentially a gentleman should be a man of good Blood.
Handsome is as handsome does.
I believe gentlemen are made from character, not from social class. A peasent or a worker can be just as much a gentleman as any member of the elites.

blut-ehre
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 07:57 AM
Someone who lives by the eternal ethics of chivalry and honor. He's generous to others; helps those in need. Devoted to his family, peers, nation, and God. Be prepared to defend his honour, the honour of others, and the honour of his folk.

I guess thats my idea of a gentleman off the topic of my head.


And what of the ‘cunning’(branched off of the Will to Power and Selfish Gene theory thread), that are not as honorable; merely wanting to live though having to implement harm, but still living up to most morality standards in your perspective ?

Mistress Klaus
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Someone who lives by the eternal ethics of chivalry and honor. He's generous to others; helps those in need. Devoted to his family, peers, nation, and God.


I find your mention of God disturbing. What God in particular?....oh ..the big pompous male that was supposed to have created us....BULL.

Sigrun Christianson
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 02:17 PM
A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)

Mistress Klaus
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 02:57 PM
A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)


And alot of ladies men have these traits as well......(the true gentlemen type as mentioned above). Beware of the man that wields the sword of a gentleman...for he knows his power over a fair lady,... underlying a heart of deceitful gratification...that he hides so gracefully...

Gladstone
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 04:05 PM
A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)

Congrats Sig!

All in all the definition you provide of a gentleman and the Victorian one of Pushkin's seem to describe what would make up an all around healthy and decent guy which is ultimately from what I can tell is what women want.

So, now that a gentleman has been defined this question must be asked.

What defines a gentlewoman? :D

Gladstone
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 04:17 PM
And alot of ladies men have these traits as well......(the true gentlemen type as mentioned above). Beware of the man that wields the sword of a gentleman...for he knows his power over a fair lady,... underlying a heart of deceitful gratification...that he hides so gracefully...

Yeah, a lot of the womanizing ladies men do know this. These men have realized one of the things women desire most is to be simply treated properly (ie fairly) and not abused and the fellow who has figured that out has a lot going for him. Course, the womanizer is abusing that secret knowledge ;) for his own purposes but I have to think (and not that this excuses what he is doing) that amongst many of the women that fall for that type (particularly if more than once), that something is not quite right with them either.

Moody
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 04:30 PM
I believe gentlemen are made from character, not from social class. A peasent or a worker can be just as much a gentleman as any member of the elites.

I didn't say social class - I expressly said 'race' and 'blood'.
That is RACIAL CLASS.

The etymology of words like gen-tle man [Nietzsche gives a whole host of examples in his 'Genealogy of Morals'] show that the concept is properly racial.

As Klages wrote;

"Nobility belongs EXCLUSIVELY to the man of Race.
There is NO SUCH THING as moral nobility, only a moral 'egoism' ...
A sense of Honour is INBORN in every aristocrat, and the duel is the knightly principle in carnate ..."
[Ludwig Klarges, from Aphorism 48 - my emphases]

For notions of 'honour' and the 'duel' see the posts in the Politics and Philosophy forums which treat the work of David Myatt.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 08:14 PM
I find your mention of God disturbing. What God in particular?....oh ..the big pompous male that was supposed to have created us....BULL.

I was refering to God in a very general sense. For the record, I was not talking about the Christian God per se. Chivalry and the notions of honour it is based on are a Christian twist on values that seen in many cultures.

The Japanese have Bushido for example; which is similar to Chivalry in many ways. Yet Bushido is based on Buddhism not Christianity; so it has both a particular Japanese and Buddhist nature to it. Many of the notions seen in Chivalry are seen in pre-Christian Europe as well. Yet in all cases without hardly any exception; codes for honourable behavior place great emphasis on religion and the belief of God(s).

I'm hardly suprised that Sparta was both the most military powerful and the most religious of the Greek city states. War was not conducted without consul from the Gods first, and never was war fought during times of religious festivels.

So when I said God, I was refering to the strong belief in a deity and moral ethics on which any decent religion upholds.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Another interesting site on being a gentleman
http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 09:24 PM
http://www.askmen.com/money/successful/41_success.html

Etiquette Of A Gentleman

By Michael Bucci

One only needs to take a quick glance around to notice that there are very few true gentlemen remaining among us. In times past, a gentleman was much appreciated and being gentlemanly was a noble thing.
Alas, things have changed in today's society; some for the better and some for the worse. One thing that particularly irks me is the lack of good taste and etiquette most guys are guilty of at the turn of this new millennium.

I'm not saying that men should act like robots and be slaves to etiquette, but some basic good manners will go a long way in helping you during your ascent to the top.

What I've done is compile a quick list of tips that will help turn even the most blundering fool into a proper gentleman. Follow these simple tips and I can assure you that people will perceive you as a man of good breeding and taste, hence a man they wish to associate and conduct business with. Not to mention the fact that the ladies are always quite pleased to meet a real gentleman.

general etiquette


Always be polite
Even if you don't like someone, there is no need to lower yourself to their level. Be polite and courteous; show that you're the better man.

Do not curse
Swearing is a big no-no. It shows that you don't have the vocabulary to express your thoughts appropriately. Furthermore, it is always very crude and impolite to be vulgar.

Do not speak loudly
When you speak loudly, it raises the stress level among company. It always implies that you can't reason with people and rely on "brute force" to get your point across. It also draws attention -- negative attention.

Do not lose your temper
When you lose your temper, you are showing everyone that you can't control your emotions. If you can't even control yourself, then how can you possibly control anything else? Keep your cool at all times (it won't be easy but it is worth the effort) and people will take positive note of your levelheadedness.

Do not stare
Ogling someone is the equivalent of psychological aggression. You don't want to intimidate people for no reason.

Do not interrupt
Let people finish what they are saying before adding your comments. Interrupting others is a sign of poor etiquette and a lack of social skills. If you want to come across as egotistical, you can do so by constantly interrupting.

Do not spit
A lot of men do this almost subconsciously. Spitting is very crude and not too pretty to look at. Do not spit in public unless you want to look like you were raised in a sewer.

Respect your elders
In fact, you should respect others as you would like them to respect you. I am specifying elders because it seems that today, young men think they know it all. Well, they don't. Just think of yourself five years ago... you're much smarter and experienced today, aren't you? Of course, yet you thought you knew it all five years ago.

Do not laugh at others' mistakes
This is perhaps one of the cruelest things one can do. When you mess up, the last thing you want is for someone not only to bring it to your attention, but to ridicule you on top of that.

Remove your hat indoors
This rule seems to have gone out the window these days. You should remove your headwear upon entering a building. Furthermore, never keep your hat on while at the dinner table. It reflects very poor etiquette.

Wait for seating before eating
When sitting down for a meal, you should wait until all the guests are properly seated and ready to commence the meal before eating. Everyone should start dining at the same time; this is a subtle but very important rule.

the basics of chivalry



In addition to the aforementioned rules, gentlemen (in training) should follow these additional rules when in the presence of a lady. Chivalry may be on life support, but it is not dead yet. Be one of the few to keep this flame burning for many years to come.

Always open doors
This is perhaps the most basic rule of male etiquette out there. It is also one of the easiest to follow so you have no reason to forget it. Whether she is about to enter your car, restaurant, club, or anyplace with a door, you should always hold it open. If there are many doors, then hold them open one after the other.

Put on her coat
Always help a lady put on her coat or overgarment. This is a simple but powerful action.

Help with her seat
If an unaccompanied lady is sitting next to you, it is important that you help her be seated by pulling her chair out for her and gently pushing it back into place, with the lady seated of course.

Give up your seat
If a lady arrives at the table and there are no available seats, you should stand up and offer yours to her.

Stand at attention
Always stand when a lady enters or exits the room. This rule has been somewhat relaxed, so you can stand upon entrance but remain seated upon exit. Nonetheless, if you can do both, you should.

Give her your arm
When escorting a lady (that you know) to and from social events, you should offer her your arm. This is a little more intimate, but serves well when walking on uneven ground -- especially if she's wearing high heels.

Ask if she needs anything
This is one that most guys already do, but helps complete the gentleman in all of us nevertheless. When at social events, make sure to ask the lady if you can get her something to drink (or eat, depending on the event). Show her that you care about her comfort and needs.

Gentlemen, if I may call you that, these are the rules of etiquette you should observe in everyday life. Elevate yourself above the rabble and display the mannerisms of a true gentleman. The world will appreciate such a rarity and your career will most definitely benefit from your good manners and savoir-faire.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM
http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_60/66_success.html

Etiquette Of A Gentleman: Part II
By John Samuel
Success Correspondent - Every 2nd Saturday

What do James Bond and Cary Grant have in common? They represent the quintessential gentleman. It's what makes them so charming and beloved. They are smooth and suave, and know how to behave in every situation. What do they have that I don't? you must be asking yourself. Nothing, it's just that they read the book on etiquette. Although one might think they're a staple of a bygone era, true gentlemen never go out of style.
basic good manners



Don't flaunt your riches
Nobody likes a braggart. Keep your assets vague if you have to discuss financial matters. You can wear expensive things without blowing your own trumpet.

Never let others see you looking at your watch
When you're amid company, ask for the time or look at your watch only if you're ready to leave right that instant. When others notice you glancing at the time, it can be interpreted as boredom. Be inconspicuous.

Never groom yourself in public
This includes picking your nose, chewing your nails and picking your teeth. These areas should only be ventured in private. Committing these acts overtly is a colossal mark of a lack of class.

Be punctual
Perhaps the greatest sign of respect, which is what a gentleman is all about, is being on time. Having people wait for you is the equivalent of telling them that you don't care about them.

Shake hands firmly
Your handshake should mirror your personality. You want the other person to think of you as someone resolved, concrete and positive. But it shouldn't be a test of your strength; don't hurt them. Your grip should be the same for women.

Apply constant verbal grace
Use "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon" for all occasions. An extension of politeness, you should always use these expressions, whether it's to get someone to move out of your way, to apologize for your upcoming journey to the men's room, or simply to signal your interlocutors that you're about to start a sentence.

Tip well and discreetly
Only tip when it's called for, as opposed to those occasions when it's simply awkward (i.e. hospital nurses or business messenger). When you do tip, don't be cheap. Respect the 15% gratuity for restaurant tabs and nothing less than $10 for a significantly useful maitre d'.

Project high moral values
Even if you know that deep down you're not, appear as if you were virtuous. A real gentleman always comes out of everything smelling like a rose.

party etiquette



The following tips apply for those occasions when you are venturing out into social events and get-togethers. God forbid you didn't know how to act like the gentleman you are.

Acknowledge your acquaintances
Don't play hide & seek with the people you know, even if you don't feel like talking to them. Bite the bullet, initiate the mandatory greetings, and get it over with.

Address new acquaintances by their title and last name
Doctor and military ranks are important to the people who have these titles. Mr. and Mrs. should be used for the others (if you're unsure about a woman's marital status, use Ms. when addressing her). Wait until they ask you to use their first name before doing so. There's nothing more irritating than someone who uses your first name two minutes after having met you.

Look at your interlocutor
Your attention should always be focused on the person you are talking with. Always look at them when listening as well as when you are in control of the conversation. Again, it's a question of respect.

At dinner, address those on your left and right
Unless it's a frat house keg fest, don't shout across the table -- concentrate on those closest to you. This will keep the proceedings calm and orderly.

Never remove coat or necktie when in company
By keeping your clothes on, you show that you consider the other guests important enough for you to remain fashionably tip-top.

Only talk when you've been formally introduced
Which is why the phrases "Have we met?" or "Have we been introduced?" are so handy. If you feel like speaking to somebody, find a person the two of you have in common and arrange a proper introduction.

Let your social superiors address you first
Unless you are on intimate terms, always let your social superior address you. This may seem archaic, but think of it in modern terms. You see Bill Gates at the party; do you go talk to him? Not unless you want his bodyguard to intervene. It can be clumsy, so arrange an introduction.

feeling gallant?



You know how to act around the ladies, don't you?

Never smoke in the presence of a lady unless invited to
In this age of political correctness it has almost become a given. While she may not ask you to, make sure you do request her permission.

Remove the cigar from your lips if a lady passes by
This one is pure common sense. It's a security measure as well as an indicator of high regard.

Offer your seat to women
Classics are always fashionable. Some feminists would certainly have a fit, but most women will definitely value the gesture.

Always carry a woman's packages
Let's face it; today's women would probably shoot you a puzzled fleeting look, so at least offer to do so. This lets her know you respect her and are courteous enough to inquire as to her comfort.

Finally, while excessive chivalry is what drove Don Quixote to madness, good manners are never uninvited in this era of fast business and faster relationships. Remember that behaving like a gentleman brings out the lady in every woman.

party etiquette



The following tips apply for those occasions when you are venturing out into social events and get-togethers. God forbid you didn't know how to act like the gentleman you are.

Acknowledge your acquaintances
Don't play hide & seek with the people you know, even if you don't feel like talking to them. Bite the bullet, initiate the mandatory greetings, and get it over with.

Address new acquaintances by their title and last name
Doctor and military ranks are important to the people who have these titles. Mr. and Mrs. should be used for the others (if you're unsure about a woman's marital status, use Ms. when addressing her). Wait until they ask you to use their first name before doing so. There's nothing more irritating than someone who uses your first name two minutes after having met you.

Look at your interlocutor
Your attention should always be focused on the person you are talking with. Always look at them when listening as well as when you are in control of the conversation. Again, it's a question of respect.

At dinner, address those on your left and right
Unless it's a frat house keg fest, don't shout across the table -- concentrate on those closest to you. This will keep the proceedings calm and orderly.

Never remove coat or necktie when in company
By keeping your clothes on, you show that you consider the other guests important enough for you to remain fashionably tip-top.

Only talk when you've been formally introduced
Which is why the phrases "Have we met?" or "Have we been introduced?" are so handy. If you feel like speaking to somebody, find a person the two of you have in common and arrange a proper introduction.

Let your social superiors address you first
Unless you are on intimate terms, always let your social superior address you. This may seem archaic, but think of it in modern terms. You see Bill Gates at the party; do you go talk to him? Not unless you want his bodyguard to intervene. It can be clumsy, so arrange an introduction.

feeling gallant?



You know how to act around the ladies, don't you?

Never smoke in the presence of a lady unless invited to
In this age of political correctness it has almost become a given. While she may not ask you to, make sure you do request her permission.

Remove the cigar from your lips if a lady passes by
This one is pure common sense. It's a security measure as well as an indicator of high regard.

Offer your seat to women
Classics are always fashionable. Some feminists would certainly have a fit, but most women will definitely value the gesture.

Always carry a woman's packages
Let's face it; today's women would probably shoot you a puzzled fleeting look, so at least offer to do so. This lets her know you respect her and are courteous enough to inquire as to her comfort.

Finally, while excessive chivalry is what drove Don Quixote to madness, good manners are never uninvited in this era of fast business and faster relationships. Remember that behaving like a gentleman brings out the lady in every woman.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Remember that behaving like a gentleman brings out the lady in every woman.

Actually I would dispute that! Being a gentleman does not always bring out the lady in every woman. Theres at least one incident where women got pissed off at me because I was acting like a gentleman. *sigh*

Abby Normal
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Actually I would dispute that! Being a gentleman does not always bring out the lady in every woman. Theres at least one incident where women got pissed off at me because I was acting like a gentleman. *sigh*
A man behaving like a gentleman only brings out the lady in a woman who is *already* a lady - like me! ;)

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 02:26 AM
A man behaving like a gentleman only brings out the lady in a woman who is *already* a lady - like me! ;)

Touche!

old aryan
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 07:48 AM
A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)
My goodness, who is this man -- Al Gore?:D

old aryan
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 07:50 AM
A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)
Lady, I think that you've been into the cooking sherry again (or maybe back from a secret weekend!!!)!!!:-O

Glenlivet
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Ah, that is so sweet :birds. He sure does sound like a Libertarian (in the classical sense) to me :). I am guilty of pointing out "flaws". That is not a good idea, as it is only a matter of perspectives. That can just throw back at yourself.

Make sure that not too many women flock around him :2girls. From reading all those lovely acts it seems that he is almost pretending. Should he not just be himself?

Now I must go and see a Doris Day/Rock Hudson love comedy.





A gentleman makes all around him feel comfortable and welcome. He doesn't point out our flaws. Holding open a door for a woman comes naturally. He thinks about the feelings of those around him. He would never swear or cuss in front of a woman and only rarely discusses politics in front of her and never finances. He isn't forced or pretentious. He is discreet, trustworthy, and loyal. He isn't loud or obnoxious because he doesn't need to be, he can get his ideas across firmly but quietly. He appreciates art, science, history, and education of all types. Women flock to him because they feel so good in his presence. Men want to be like him. He isn't a coward in any sense of the word and he honors his agreements be they expressed or implied. He is generous, altruistic, and compassionate.

I am lucky enough know a man like this. :)

Scoob
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 05:23 PM
What's so good about a gentleman? I like people (men and women) who are natural and down-to-earth. But most of the qualities Sigrun describes I find to be excellent character traits. Here's a great poem by Rudyard Kipling along similar lines:

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

kinvolk
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 05:30 PM
Just as the name says , I was wondering what to the people of skadi; a gentleman was classified as? Please no dictionary definitions :D just whatever you can think of.
its kinda-sorta like obsenity, Hard to explain but I know it when I see it!

Scoob
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 05:36 PM
What's so good about a gentleman? I like people (men and women) who are natural and down-to-earth. I actually don't mind loud people - but depends on the situation. I think a sense of humor is one of the most important character traits I value, along with intelligence. I think genuine consideration is important, more than Pavlovian "politeness."

I also think it's less important to be nice, and more important to treat people according to what they deserve.

I'm not sure about not discussing politics or finances in front of women. Finances I consider private, but politics? Last time I checked, women have the right to vote in the USA - and I don't appreciate them being imbeciles.

But most of the qualities Sigrun describes I find to be excellent character traits. Here's a great poem by Rudyard Kipling along similar lines:

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

Sigrun Christianson
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 03:27 AM
Lady, I think that you've been into the cooking sherry again (or maybe back from a secret weekend!!!)!!!:-OJealous? :)

Sigrun Christianson
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 03:28 AM
Ah, that is so sweet :birds. He sure does sound like a Libertarian (in the classical sense) to me :). I am guilty of pointing out "flaws". That is not a good idea, as it is only a matter of perspectives. That can just throw back at yourself.

Make sure that not too many women flock around him :2girls. From reading all those lovely acts it seems that he is almost pretending. Should he not just be himself?

Now I must go and see a Doris Day/Rock Hudson love comedy.He is a gem and he doesn't pretend. Some men are just better than others. :D

Sigrun Christianson
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 03:30 AM
My goodness, who is this man -- Al Gore?:DDiscretion, Old Aryan. Why would I want all the women to know who I'm talking about? I'd rather keep him for myself, thanks. ;)

+Suomut+
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 05:00 AM
A gentleman not only knows how to apologize...he does. :|

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 06:17 AM
I judge a man by three factors, their brains, their heart and their guts. These three factors, by themselves, alone, are not sufficient by which to judge a "gentleman". For this you must ad: honor, duty and loyality. A gentleman must judge his own actions in light of these three values. What are the ramifications of a given action? Is there a duty component? If so, the other components also come into play. Likewise, if there is an honor or loyality component, duty may or will come into play. Successfully balancing these values in taking action will bring about the best solution. This solution will have correct and moral value which is a necessity for a gentleman.

Sigrun Christianson has supplied the other components we all recognize in an educated, civilized gentleman.

Abby Normal
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 11:57 PM
My goodness, who is this man -- Al Gore?:D
Haha. I know a couple guys like Sigrun described (not old politicians, though! ;) ) I'm lucky enough to have one of them as my boyfriend. (I would not settle for any less than a true gentleman! :D )

Taras Bulba
Friday, March 12th, 2004, 01:21 AM
Haha. I know a couple guys like Sigrun described (not old politicians, though! ;) ) I'm lucky enough to have one of them as my boyfriend. (I would not settle for any less than a true gentleman! :D )

What? Adelaide I'm not your boyfriend, you're being delusional! :D ;) :rotfl

Abby Normal
Friday, March 12th, 2004, 03:09 AM
What? Adelaide I'm not your boyfriend, you're being delusional! :D ;) :rotfl
No, I'd say he's more of a gentleman than you... And he's not a woman-hater, either! :D ;) :D :D

cosmocreator
Friday, March 12th, 2004, 03:22 AM
No, I'd say he's more of a gentleman than you... And he's not a woman-hater, either! :D ;) :D :D


Look, I told you you are too young for me. Now get over me. I'm not your boyfriend. :D

Abby Normal
Friday, March 12th, 2004, 03:42 AM
Look, I told you you are too young for me. Now get over me. I'm not your boyfriend. :D
I wasn't referring to you OR Pushkin! Stop being so self-assured, and, oh yeah, GET OVER YOURSELF! :D ;(

Scáthach
Sunday, March 14th, 2004, 01:58 PM
Off-hand the traits of a ''Gentleman'' to me are:

1. Honesty
2. Loyalty
3. Nobility
4. A strong pride in his land and people
5. Good manners of course!

Gentilis
Thursday, October 28th, 2004, 06:26 PM
What do you all think about the decline of the chivalry in contemporary society.

Was it inevitable? Has the gentleman's code of honour, morality and civility ceased to be relevant in the modern age?

Sadly, the word gentleman has become a parody of its former self and is now largely devoid of any true meaning. Nowadays, it is liberally misapplied to even the worst scroundrel, ruffian, degenerate and assorted low-life. Gone are the days when the word gentleman described a man of good character, good breeding, good manners, and good morals.

The last time I encountered a true gentleman was in Paris three years ago. He was a most distinguished elderly man who held a door open for my wife. When she thanked him for his gallant gesture he responded with the outmoded words: "à votre service". He spoke them with such conviction and tender devotion for the fair sex that it left me in a state of awe. Regretably, chivalry is dead where I currently reside and my own natural tendencies to be nice and polite are often wasted or exploited by pushy, grubby degenerates and urban savages alike.

Can there be a revival of chivalry? Hard to say... if radical feminism can die out at a faster rate anything is possible. But then there are other factors like the media and governmental bodies which have also served to undermine the traditional role and importance of chivalry in Western Civilization.

But then again, perhaps chivalry is its own worst enemy. Chivalry has two weak points: 1) it is self-destructive because of its predilection for things like dying honourably rather than surving another day in the skin of a rapscallion; 2) because it is an code of conduct which is transmitted by example and not from the dictates of the written word, chivalry is extremely vulnerable to distortions, omissions, misappropriation, neglect or even outright abandonment -- largely due to societal change.

I would like to delve deeper into the matter, but first I'd like to know what others think first...

She-Wolf
Thursday, October 28th, 2004, 06:40 PM
I don't think the Gentleman has become extinct. I can promise you that they're still around. Recently I've met a fine perfect gentleman and so they're still out there. IMO a gentleman's behaviour is what comes from within. I can agree that chivalry and politeness has been eroded from many people, maybe it's damage caused by influence from the media? I know it sounds cliche but I think Hollywood and various institutions, e.i. universities and movements are to blame for all this change in society and how people think and act.

Gentilis
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Hmmm... just as I suspected: the gentleman is an endangered species even here amongst the self-styled preservationists.

Jack
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 09:03 AM
Hmmm... just as I suspected: the gentleman is an endangered species even here amongst the self-styled preservationists.
The ideal of the gentleman was the successor to the ideal of the warrior-prince, it did not appear ex nihilio. We have to progress through the cycle again to get that far.

AryanKrieger
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 12:12 PM
The ideal of the gentleman was the successor to the ideal of the warrior-prince, it did not appear ex nihilio. We have to progress through the cycle again to get that far.
Yes, there is something in what you say. However as men of "Tradition" there is no reason why we cannot as individuals subscribe to a chivalric code of honour which is entirely Aryan in its Weltanschauung.
I concede though that the gentleman is a rare phenomenon in this age of the Kali Yuga when all values are reversed and are in decline.

Telperion
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 06:00 PM
The institution of the gentleman, and the code of conduct with which he was expected to comply, was associated with a rural, pre-industrial culture ruled by a thriving aristocracy. As society became more urbanized, the concept of the gentleman survived, at least for a time, but was under siege from the aggressive, greedy behaviour associated with the rising commercial class during the industrial revolution.

I would say the decline of the gentleman as a social institution (if one may call it that) is associated with the decline of the gentry as a class. One can still subscribe to the values of the gentry today, but in our crass, rude, commercialistic society, this unfortunately amounts to nothing more than an individual idiosyncracy, a mode of behaviour that is no longer rewarded by society. Speaking personally, I can't count the number of times my own attempts to be civil to people have been met with rudeness, ingratitude, or worse. Even so, it is worth making the effort to behave in a civil fashion, if only to prevent oneself from being dragged down into the morass of crude, slovenly behaviour that afflicts society today.

Taras Bulba
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 06:22 PM
I'll try to elaborate on this further but for now I'll give a gist of my arguments.


What do you all think about the decline of the chivalry in contemporary society.

A great tragedy.



Was it inevitable?

No. Nothing is inevitable except in retrospect.



Has the gentleman's code of honour, morality and civility ceased to be relevant in the modern age?

Absolutely not!



Can there be a revival of chivalry? Hard to say... if radical feminism can die out at a faster rate anything is possible. But then there are other factors like the media and governmental bodies which have also served to undermine the traditional role and importance of chivalry in Western Civilization.

Of course chivalry cane be revived. Chivalry is based on noble virtues based in eternity! They do not go "out of fashion".



But then again, perhaps chivalry is its own worst enemy. Chivalry has two weak points: 1) it is self-destructive because of its predilection for things like dying honourably rather than surving another day in the skin of a rapscallion;


So honour is a bad thing?



2) because it is an code of conduct which is transmitted by example and not from the dictates of the written word, chivalry is extremely vulnerable to distortions, omissions, misappropriation, neglect or even outright abandonment -- largely due to societal change.

Yes and no, there was no one code of chivalry but much has been written on the topic. I even have an anthology with several works dealing with this matter.

Many people try to associate the decline of chivalry to industrialization and urbanization....this is nonsense. In fact the rise of courtly love and chivalry actually occured in the Middle Ages when cities were booming and rising.

The problem is not industrialization/urbanization per se but what kind of system through which they arise. In a more traditional-based society, urbanization is more compatible with chivalry. In a capitalistic society, they're not. It's because Europe was already governed by a system hostile to chivalric values is why urbanization and industrialization seemed to serve anti-chivalric ends, but it was not because urbanization/industrialization itself are anti-chivalric.

In fact Im re-reading Bloody Good: Chivalry, Sacrifice, and the Great War by Allen J. Frantzen, where the greatest boom of chivalric notions and ideals occured in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; well into the industrial age. If anybody wants I can post excerpts from this book, but please be aware Im short on time to do so.

No chivalry is not out of date, although following word for word the old Medieval texts are not going to be useful. Rather there must be a creative re-discovery of the old chivalric traditions, much like what did happen in the 19th and 20th centuries(and Frantzen does mention the differences between the 19th and Medieval versions). In fact theres ton of literature trying to promote this like this site:

http://www.chivalrytoday.com/

Nor is the decline of the gentry necessarily the cause either. I prefer the Renaisance ideal of chivalry in many ways more than the Medieval one; since the Renaisance de-emphasised ones social class in terms of adhering to chivalric ideals(although interesting the Medieval period did not place too much emphasis on social class either, or at least not as much as we tend to think it did). In fact this obsession with linking chivalry with the ideals of a certain class is sadly the result of Marxist scholarship and many nationalists themselves have fallen into the trap.

I'll elaborate more on this later, since this is a topic very dear to me.

Telperion
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:18 PM
It was not urbanization per se, but the industrial revolution and the market-based economic system associated with it that played a significant role in the decline of the gentleman. The entire structure of social values that encouraged gentlemanly behaviour was displaced as the landed gentry went into decline, in terms of their social and economic importance, relative to the rising mercantile class, who did not attach much significance to chivalry. Incentives to behave in a gentlemanly fashion declined accordingly. I don't think one has to be a Marxist to recognize that the displacement of the old aristocracy by the new mercantile elites was associated with, and likely played a causal role, in the decline of gentlemanly values.

Taras Bulba
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:51 PM
That wasnt my argument, my argument is against the association of chivalric values with any one particular class. Even in the Medieval sense, chivalry(or its basic precepts) were not confined to the aristocracy, could find its equivalents even among the Serfs.

Taras Bulba
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:56 PM
Is chivalry dead?

“Chivalry was born in the court of King Arthur and laid to rest in the trenches of World War I. So goes the popular history of an enduring medieval icon, the knight in shining armor who rode out to defeat his foes and to rescue damsels in distress. Chivalry, we were told, both inspired mindless homage to tradition and perished with it. With young men filled with illusions of chivalry were ordered to walk into machine-gun fire, an ancient brotherhood fell before the weapons of the new age. That scenario is an emblem of various themes – betrayed idealism, bitterness, the futility of pitting men against machines – that characterize “the myth of the war,” in Samuel Hines’s language, “a myth of ruination” that set a generation adrift….Chivalry did not die with World War I. In the early 1990s the J. Walter Thompson advertising agency created a series of promotional videos for the US Marine Corps using knights, swords, and horses in various configurations. In 2002 funding for the “Crusader” missile system was canceled with great fanfare. Street gangs, the Ku Klux Klan, and honorable organizations such as the Knights of Columbus, echo the heroic masculinity of chivalry every day. In every case chivalry reinforces group identity as it models heroic masculinity. Whether we are excited or disturbed by these avatars, we need to understand the medieval ideas, the moral and theological meanings, beneath them, for these ideas, old though they are, help explain violence in the modern world.”
--Allen J. Frantzen Bloody Good: Chivalry, Sacrifice, and the Great War pg.1-2;8-9

Interesting that he mentions street gangs, cause sadly thats the only place nowadays were anykind of masculine toughness(though extremely perverted) can be found in society. This is probably one reason why its so attracted to people, even white males. In our effeminate society, the gangsta image provides a strong image of bravado and toughness. Sadly its an image of tough masculinity that ignores many of the more important sides of masculinity, basically a balance with some form of compassion and decency.

Taras Bulba
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:57 PM
What is the purpose of chivalry?

“Chivalry cannot stop the wheels of war, that is clear. But as its waters wash away blood, they enable us to see the chariot wheels, the circles of sacrifice and grief, more clearly. Chivalry reminds us why there is war: not because God wills it, as Honore Bouvet claimed, not simply because the world is enmeshed in cycles of violence, as Rene Girard claims, but because ideas and traditions can be worth dying for – and worth killing for. Chivalry explains why such dedication, single-mindedness, love, even bloody-mindedness are, after all, necessary and good.”
--Allen J. Frantzen Bloody Good: Chivalry, Sacrifice, and the Great War pg.263

Taras Bulba
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:59 PM
Indeed Frantzen's book is a must for anybody interested in the question of chivalry and its impact on modern society.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226260852/qid=1099324017/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6802372-4292149?v=glance&s=books

Book Description

In the popular imagination, World War I stands for the horror of all wars. The unprecedented scale of the war and the mechanized weaponry it introduced to battle brought an abrupt end to the romantic idea that soldiers were somehow knights in shining armor who always vanquished their foes and saved the day. Yet the concept of chivalry still played a crucial role in how soldiers saw themselves in the conflict.

Here for the first time, Allen J. Frantzen traces these chivalric ideals from the Great War back to their origins in the Middle Ages and shows how they resulted in highly influential models of behavior for men in combat. Drawing on a wide selection of literature and images from the medieval period, along with photographs, memorials, postcards, war posters, and film from both sides of the front, Frantzen shows how such media shaped a chivalric ideal of male sacrifice based on the Passion of Jesus Christ. He demonstrates, for instance, how the wounded body of Christ became the inspiration for heroic male suffering in battle. For some men, the Crucifixion inspired a culture of revenge, one in which Christ's bleeding wounds were venerated as badges of valor and honor. For others, Christ's sacrifice inspired action more in line with his teachings--a daring stay of hands or reason not to visit death upon one's enemies.

Lavishly illustrated and eloquently written, Bloody Good will be must reading for anyone interested in World War I and the influence of Christian ideas on modern life.

Boerncian
Saturday, November 27th, 2004, 04:57 AM
I was raised to be a gentleman and I raised My son also to be gentleman. While we are not perfect, we would never abandon our Southern Heritage,which holds the code and honor high. We will always hold that most perfect example as our light and inspiration the perfect warriour and Gentleman Robert E Lee.

The southern gentlemen is still alive and well. Deo vindice

BodewinTheSilent
Saturday, November 27th, 2004, 08:37 PM
I don't believe chivalry is dead, nor the gentleman extinct. Sadly though I find it is no longer a widespread phenomena. In my opinion much of this is due to a growling, bitter feminism [I have experienced this myself] and the shyness of some men as well. Chivalry is still a latent tendency and will return, I think, in a better age.

BodewinTheSilent
Saturday, November 27th, 2004, 08:42 PM
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html




The Code of Chivalry

I wanted to put these here because I think that there are some good ideals within the code of chivalry. Plus it's interesting to see how our ideas about chivalry and/or honor have changed with time. Sure, some of this is obviously outdated and probably not very useful, but some of it is still good advice; I'm sure you'll recognize which points are useful even today.

The Ten Commandments of the Code of Chivalry

From Chivalry by Leon Gautier

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in the which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
The Code of Chivalry

From the Rifts: England Supplement

I'm pretty sure I got this list somewhere else, but I haven't found out where. Still, some reference is better than none, so thanks to Jeremy Treanor for giving me this one.

Live to serve King and Country.
Live to defend Crown and Country and all it holds dear.
Live one's life so that it is worthy of respect and honor.
Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.
Never attack an unarmed foe.
Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack.
Never attack from behind.
Avoid lying to your fellow man.
Avoid cheating.
Avoid torture.
Obey the law of king, country, and chivalry.
Administer justice.
Protect the innocent.
Exhibit self control.
Show respect to authority.
Respect women.
Exhibit Courage in word and deed.
Defend the weak and innocent.
Destroy evil in all of its monstrous forms.
Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people.
Fight with honor.
Avenge the wronged.
Never abandon a friend, ally, or noble cause.
Fight for the ideals of king, country, and chivalry.
Die with valor.
Always keep one's word of honor.
Always maintain one's principles.
Never betray a confidence or comrade.
Avoid deception.
Respect life and freedom.
Die with honor.
Exhibit manners.
Be polite and attentive.
Be respectful of host, women, and honor.
Loyalty to country, King, honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.
Loyalty to one's friends and those who lay their trust in thee.

Rules of Courtly Love

I wanted to put these here because I think that there are some good ideas in these sets of rules. It's also interesting to see how our ideas about love have changed with time (OK, so we don't exactly have the idea of courtly love around anymore, but still). Some of this is certainly outdated and probably not very useful, but some of it is still good advice; I'm sure you'll recognize which points are useful even today. Both lists apparently come from the same source, The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus. Thanks to Mark Lipsman for pointing out an error (now corrected) in point 2 of the second list below.

The Twelve Chief Rules in Love

From The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus

Thou shalt avoid avarice like the deadly pestilence and shalt embrace its opposite.
Thou shalt keep thyself chaste for the sake of her whom thou lovest.
Thou shalt not knowingly strive to break up a correct love affair that someone else is engaged in.
Thou shalt not chose for thy love anyone whom a natural sense of shame forbids thee to marry.
Be mindful completely to avoid falsehood.
Thou shalt not have many who know of thy love affair.
Being obedient in all things to the commands of ladies, thou shalt ever strive to ally thyself to the service of Love.
In giving and receiving love's solaces let modesty be ever present.
Thou shalt speak no evil.
Thou shalt not be a revealer of love affairs.
Thou shalt be in all things polite and courteous.
In practising the solaces of love thou shalt not exceed the desires of thy lover.
The Art of Courtly Love

From The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus

Marriage is no real excuse for not loving.
He who is not jealous cannot love.
No one can be bound by a double love.
It is well known that love is always increasing or decreasing.
That which a lover takes against the will of his beloved has no relish.
Boys do not love until they reach the age of maturity.
When one lover dies, a widowhood of two years is required of the survivor.
No one should be deprived of love without the very best of reasons.
No one can love unless he is propelled by the persuasion of love.
Love is always a stranger in the home of avarice.
It is not proper to love any woman whom one would be ashamed to seek to marry.
A true lover does not desire to embrace in love anyone except his beloved.
When made public love rarely endures.
The easy attainment of love makes it of little value: difficulty of attainment makes it prized.
Every lover regularly turns pale in the presence of his beloved.
When a lover suddenly catches sight of his beloved his heart palpitates.
A new love puts an old one to flight.
Good character alone makes any man worthy of love.
If love diminishes, it quickly fails and rarely revives.
A man in love is always apprehensive.
Real jealousy always increases the feeling of love.
Jealousy increases when one suspects his beloved.
He whom the thought of love vexes eats and sleeps very little.
Every act of a lover ends in the thought of his beloved.
A true lover considers nothing good except what he thinks will please his beloved.
Love can deny nothing to love.
A lover can never have enough of the solaces of his beloved.
A slight presumption causes a lover to suspect his beloved.
A man who is vexed by too much passion usually does not love.
A true lover is constantly and without intermission possessed by the thought of his beloved.
Nothing forbids one woman being loved by two men or one man by two women.

MsDeena
Tuesday, October 18th, 2005, 12:43 AM
BodewinTheSilent "In my opinion much of this is due to a growling, bitter feminism [I have experienced this myself] and the shyness of some men as well."

This is very true. I would imagine that it could be very difficult for a man to deal with.


Today's world is rude and crude. Sadly, people take very little stock into honor... and have a poor values, morals and scruples. Given the state of society, some men feel that it may be acceptable to behave in a certain manner that is really not acceptable behavior for a gentleman. Others allow them to get away with this. For instance... A man treats a lady in a disrespectful manner and she fails to communicate to him that his behavior is not acceptable. He may not realize he's done anything wrong or believes it is ok to treat her this way. He will continue to do so..
Could be an ugly cycle. Or quite possibly I'm just cynical. :)

Dropkick
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 02:33 AM
People are acting like those around them. Children should be taught in school how to behave properly. Its all learned behaviour.

Too often these days theres people who only do nice things to get nice things in return.

Caledonian
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 03:14 AM
I'll give you a hint as to why the decline and eventual disappearance of chivalry happened.....Women had somthing to do with it....;)

[ Chivalry in it's romantic context of relationships anyways.]


Now if we are talking about chivalry as a manner of propriety and civility I assure you they are nothing but fictional fancies of history in that civility is often enough pure fantasy in civilization.

Barbarity and strife is the norm in the history of our species.

It always has been, it still is, and it always will be.

[Modern overhyped sense of extreme selfish egotistical individualism centered around self indulgence versus the welfare of social collectivism doesn't help either when combined with prevailing themes in history but instead worsens them.]

Zimobog
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 05:17 AM
I for one would like to see more gentlemanly and proper behavior exhibited in discussions here on Skadi. The internet is a great place to practice our manners.

If someone is wrong, one should say, "I beg to differ..." or "I see things differently..." or "I respectfully disagree.." rather than blast someone as a "fool" or worse. It is even more grating to me to see it done to members of the fair sex. No wonder so many males these days can't find a mate! Who could blame the ladies for wanting to avoid a generation of self-important boorish roosters who can't be civil for one second?

I am not refined enough myself to claim the lofty title of "Gentleman", but what an aspiration! What a chance for self-improvement each day gives us. Our traditional values held that welcome strangers, ladies, and peers were treated with respect and kindness. Have we degraded to the point that we can no longer speak to our kinsmen and kinswomen with respect and with the same honor that the ancestors gave to total strangers?

While debate is welcome and disagreements are a possible outcome of such discourse, let us make up our minds to follow in the path of those who came before us and treat one another as though we value them as our fellow Germanics.

Sciuirse Morrigna
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 05:15 PM
It goes both ways on that Zimo.

When you have females that can't act the least ladylike, but strut around as if they've been done wrong because they were born without a penis, can they expect to be treated any better than they are?

Now, females, that actually ACT like LADIES, should, indeed, be treated as such, as males who act like MEN should be treated with respect, for both are rare in this day and age.

Zimobog
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 06:56 PM
Sciuirse Morrigna, I can certainly see your point and it is well made by the misbehavior of many females. Where I might take disagreement is that I see chivalry as means of self-improvement, not as a means to improve others.

Astrid Runa
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 07:00 PM
I don't think that gentlemen have been completley wiped out all together.
There are a few gems still left.
My dear friend Alexander is one of them. He really is a true gentleman, treats me and others with such respect and acts so civil to people he meets. If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason, he doesn't say so infront of them. Instead he waits until they've left and will say "I didn't actually like that person very much". He's very polite and considerate and steps in if he sees someone being rude towards me or anyone else that he knows.
And when I first met him, he kissed the back of my hand.

To get back on topic, even though chivalry hasn't completley dissapeared, there are some unsavoury utter cads that I've come across who are more Chauvanistic than Chivalrous, and that just riles me right up.
A few of them I've come across at work unfortunately. Old fashioned cads.....

Juthunge
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 07:48 PM
If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason, he doesn't say so infront of them. Instead he waits until they've left and will say "I didn't actually like that person very much".

While I support the rest of your post, this is actually a coward's way. If you don't like someone, tell them to their face or remain silent. But slandering behind someones back is deceitful and contemptible, however polite the slandering person might express his views.

wittwer
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 07:50 PM
Once upon a time... male children were expected to memorize the 110 precepts laid out in the text, "Rules of Civility and Decent Behaivor in Company and Conversation" as a part of their Grammar School education. No longer a requirement. No training in the Art of Being a Gentleman, no Gentlemen. Simple as that...

Now, "Get the F@#* out of my way you S%$#"!
;)

RoyBatty
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 08:30 PM
I try to be chivalrous with people (male and female) who deserve to be treated chivalrously but not many qualify. It's not unheard of for the female (particularly the aggressive feminutjobs) to throw a fit if one were "patronising and chauvinist" enough to open a door for them or let them by.

So ..... it's equality now for the most part. The jungle rules which apply to men now equally apply to (Western) women apart from the ones I know still want to be treated like women. I'll also make more of an effort with women from ethnic minority communities where women are usually still more traditional.

White women? Forget it......

And now to the England Supplement of Chivalry. I'm afraid the whole thing is hopelessly outdated and half-irrelevant today.




From the Rifts: England Supplement

I'm pretty sure I got this list somewhere else, but I haven't found out where. Still, some reference is better than none, so thanks to Jeremy Treanor for giving me this one.
[list]

Live to serve King and Country.

Live to defend Crown and Country and all it holds dear.

Live one's life so that it is worthy of respect and honor.

Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.

Never attack an unarmed foe.

Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack.

Never attack from behind.

Avoid lying to your fellow man.

Avoid cheating.

Avoid torture.

Obey the law of king, country, and chivalry.

Administer justice.

Protect the innocent.

Exhibit self control.

Show respect to authority.

Respect women.

Exhibit Courage in word and deed.

Defend the weak and innocent.

Destroy evil in all of its monstrous forms.

Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people.

Fight with honor.

Avenge the wronged.

Never abandon a friend, ally, or noble cause.

Fight for the ideals of king, country, and chivalry.

Die with valor.

Always keep one's word of honor.

Always maintain one's principles.

Never betray a confidence or comrade.

Avoid deception.

Respect life and freedom.

Die with honor.

Exhibit manners.

Be polite and attentive.

Be respectful of host, women, and honor.

Loyalty to country, King, honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.

Loyalty to one's friends and those who lay their trust in thee.



Live to serve King and Country.
Live to defend Crown and Country and all it holds dear.

What has "The King and Crown" done for me (or most of the rest of us) lately?


Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack.

You're having a laugh mate. When I fight I'm in it to win, not score points on the Queensbury Rules tables.


Obey the law of king, country, and chivalry.

Chivalry is dead and the law of king & country shows more resemblance to the laws of the privilidged than the laws of the people.


Show respect to authority.

Like "Elf & Safety" and the "Equalities" Commission? You having a laugh?


Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people.

And here we face the dilemma because those monsters are the very people the laws of chivalry tells us to "serve and obey". So what now???


Avenge the wronged.

This may not go down well with the bit about "obeying Authority".


Fight for the ideals of king, country, and chivalry.

And which ideals are those? An enslaved Britain in the &*(&()^ EUSSR?????????


Avoid deception.

Why? Does the Enemy act above board at all times?


Loyalty to country, King, honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.

That one is a two-way-street and not everyone have been keeping up their side of the bargain.

Astrid Runa
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 10:55 PM
While I support the rest of your post, this is actually a coward's way. If you don't like someone, tell them to their face or remain silent. But slandering behind someones back is deceitful and contemptible, however polite the slandering person might express his views.

I often say it to someone's face if I don't like them.
Xander doesn't. Yes, saying it behind their backs may be cowardice, but really, is he just going to remain silent about them after they leave? I wouldn't. I would make it quite clear to my friends that I don't like someone if I havn't already, regardless of what may be thought of me.
If someone doesn't like it, tough cookies.

thirsty
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 11:19 PM
The future belongs to the adaptive. If chivalry is a superfluous inefficiency that saddles one with far more risk/responsibility than rights/rewards than overboard it must go. I always thought it was more french than anything, and everybody knows where I come from the french are a degenerate bunch. :D

Can't say I'm gonna miss it. Now honour on the other hand, that is a noble trait, a german one that should at all times be preserved. The two are very much different and should not be mistaken for having been derived from the same system of morality, quite the opposite really.

Caledonian
Monday, December 20th, 2010, 11:38 PM
The future belongs to the adaptive. If chivalry is a superfluous inefficiency that saddles one with far more risk/responsibility than rights/rewards than overboard it must go. I always thought it was more french than anything, and everybody knows where I come from the french are a degenerate bunch. :D

Can't say I'm gonna miss it. Now honour on the other hand, that is a noble trait, a german one that should at all times be preserved. The two are very much different and should not be mistaken for having been derived from the same system of morality, quite the opposite really.

Honor is a deceptive word too along with chivalry and morality.

At the end of the day the only thing people respect is power.

Zimobog
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 03:33 AM
AlaricLachlan wrote:
Honor is a deceptive word too along with chivalry and morality.

At the end of the day the only thing people respect is power.

Truly, my friend? Than shall you weave now a reverent hymn of your respect for those in power?

I think not. :D

Caledonian
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 04:05 AM
AlaricLachlan wrote:

Truly, my friend? Than shall you weave now a reverent hymn of your respect for those in power?

I think not. :D

I have no respect for those with or in power but even with that it nonetheless changes nothing that power dictates the world.

One need not respect or revere them in that it matters not for it changes nothing.

Angus
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 04:16 AM
I wouldnt say gentlemen are exinct, but we are defiently becoming harder to find at an alarming rate.. probably because of all the B.S MTV has. One show has a teenage girl pregant with a boyfriend who of course treats her like shit. Another has some freakishly large douchebag with a shirt 10 sizes too small, talk shit to a girl and has no problem treating her even worse. I can honestly say i am the only guy i know who still holds doors open, opens the car door for her, does not forget anniversaries, will every so often randomly buy flowers and as corny as it.. calls or texts to simply say "good night" or "good morning". I dont do these things once in a blue moon, but always. Thats how it should be.

Zimobog
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 04:43 AM
AlaricLachlan wrote:

I have no respect for those with or in power but even with that it nonetheless changes nothing that power dictates the world.

One need not respect or revere them in that it matters not for it changes nothing.

Power does dictate the world but those who would seize it should realize that all things have their season. Those in power today have not always had it so.

Resistance begins with a thought. "There is no spoon." :D Thoughts become words and words become deeds and deeds and the fame of deeds change everything.

Once apoun a time British gentlemen had such power. But there is something timeless and noble about the code they aspired to. Whether we have power or not, being polite and noble is a virtue unto itself.

As I was telling a friend just yesterday, Winston Churchill once said, "When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite." Even those with absolute power over life and death lose nothing in behaving like civilized gentlemen. And did not such principled and proper British gentlemen step over the rude savages on far-flug continents?

Didn't the Romans consider their ways civilized and that of the Selucid, the Persian, the African, the Egyptian, and yes: even the Germanic, that of unprincipled and uncivilized savagery? How different was their idea than that of the empires that came before?

Two gentlemen of Southern extraction, stepping on to a sandbar of the Mississippi river with their seconds, servants, and matched pistols with the intent of loosing shots to death or glory engage in a ritual of antiquity and honor. The deed itself, of spilling heart's blood on the sand... of savagely seperating another's soul from it's earthly abode... of killing... remains just as savage. But the ritual, the tradition, the chivalry is beautiful and noble. Without it is simple savagery.

Savagery, as you have pointed out before, is the constant in human interaction thru our history. But I would say that what sets the victor apart is their sense of infaliable civilization and the value of an honor-concept.

Whom should we emulate? The savage, or the noble?

thirsty
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 05:07 AM
Honor is a deceptive word too along with chivalry and morality.

At the end of the day the only thing people respect is power.

Honour is power. A maladaptive honour imperative scares the s**t out of the less racially cohesive. Case in point, end of the last, late, great conflict, disarmed SS battalions marching their way back through Austria to surrender in Germany come across ex-pow's out of Mauthausen, fully armed and looking for revenge, in numbers to make a real bother if they had the guts to. They didn't, why??? Because when it comes down to it a guy only got two things in life that without a doubt are his own, his balls and his word. One could call the SS a lot of different perjoatives, but they certainly lacked in neither of the essentials. That is honour. Chivalry is fatuitous pseudo-aristocratic garbage and deserves to be dustbinned.

Wulfram
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 03:42 PM
Chivalry never really had a chance to be perfected. Ideally it should be what all young Germanic men strive for, but instead most of them consider it to be too dorky.

Kissing a woman's hand use to be standard practice in Germanic society. But hollywood has taught people to think that hand kissing is not only unfashionably White, but also sleazy. I have seen numerous movies where the hand-kisser is almost always the cliched slick-haired douche-bag with half his shirt buttons open, revealing numerous gold chains on a grotesquely hairy chest. While kissing a woman's hand he will leer at her from underneath a lasciviously arched eyebrow that says "You like that, don't you baby?". The camera then shows the young lady squirming with disgust, and we the audience are supposed to squirm with her. They portray this particular example as oversexed as well as oblivious to just how obnoxious he is being. As a result many women consider the ritual of hand kissing to be a sign of disrespect, when 75 years ago it was the ultimate form of civility.

I have something to confess here. The following incident happened a few years ago: I had walked into a convenience store before noticing that a woman was about ten or so feet behind me. So I opened the door again and waited for her. She looked at what I was doing and rolled her eyes in an exaggerated manner that said all too clearly: "WhatEVER!"
I suddenly felt outraged at her contempt. As she reached the door I allowed it to swing back shut, which forced her to suddenly stop and open the door for herself. The look of shock on her face is something I will never forget. Instead of feeling good about myself I was overwhelmed with regret. I had been raised to show proper respect toward women, and as a result of my actions it almost felt as if I had slapped her in the face.

That memory stayed with me and I have never allowed myself to behave in this manner again. That is not the kind of person I am.
Now that I understand how women have been fooled into the feminist way of thinking this type of behavior no longer angers me, and it has happened numerous times since. I will now open doors for them even if they do roll their eyes. Most of them won't even say thanks, and will walk by me as if the door had opened of itself. However, on occasion I will receive a genuine smile and a "Thank you". It is for these rare occasions of gratitude that I will always open the door for a woman.

Sigurd
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 04:13 PM
Of course it's happened that a woman has shown signs of exasperation at me doing something as outrageous and chauvinist as wait for her to walk through a door that I held open. Not my problem - I won't change my stripes and how I've been raised, I'll still hold it open. It'd make me feel awkward to slam a door in a girl's face. ;)

Astrid Runa
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 04:16 PM
Even though I am a woman, I still practice politeness and hold doors open for people.

I often feel very flattered when a man holds a door open for me or if I meet one and he greets me by kissing my hand. I don't view hand kissing as sleazy or icky, unless the man himself is sleazy or icky.
When Alexander kissed the back of my hand when we first met, I turned quite a bright shade of red and liked him immediately because never has a man kissed my hand before.

Ronan, I'm sad to hear that you've come across women like that. But I assure you, I am one of those few who actually thanks someone who holds a door open for me. I was raised to be polite and thankful.

SpearBrave
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 05:09 PM
I and other men in this area still hold the doors open for women and women still thank us for it. Also I try stand and give my seat for a lady, some other men do this as well. Then there is the raising from the table before women sits and when they get up.

One thing I have noticed is that less and less men say "ma'm" or "miss" when they are speaking to a strange woman. I always thought that was polite and sounded nice.

Astrid Runa
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 05:27 PM
I and other men in this area still hold the doors open for women and women still thank us for it. Also I try stand and give my seat for a lady, some other men do this as well. Then there is the raising from the table before women sits and when they get up.

One thing I have noticed is that less and less men say "ma'm" or "miss" when they are speaking to a strange woman. I always thought that was polite and sounded nice.

Whereabouts do you live, SpearBrave?
I like the sound of the way men treat women there....

wittwer
Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 05:29 PM
There is much, much, more to being a "Gentleman", than simply kissing ones hand, holding doors open for the opposite sex, or the use of honorific titles to show respect. It is a broad based approach to Thought, Word, and Deed in the Social and Private spheres... ;)

It can be said, "It is what separates the civilized from the beast".

Caledonian
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 02:14 AM
AlaricLachlan wrote:


Power does dictate the world but those who would seize it should realize that all things have their season. Those in power today have not always had it so.

Resistance begins with a thought. "There is no spoon." :D Thoughts become words and words become deeds and deeds and the fame of deeds change everything.

Once apoun a time British gentlemen had such power. But there is something timeless and noble about the code they aspired to. Whether we have power or not, being polite and noble is a virtue unto itself.

As I was telling a friend just yesterday, Winston Churchill once said, "When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite." Even those with absolute power over life and death lose nothing in behaving like civilized gentlemen. And did not such principled and proper British gentlemen step over the rude savages on far-flug continents?

Didn't the Romans consider their ways civilized and that of the Selucid, the Persian, the African, the Egyptian, and yes: even the Germanic, that of unprincipled and uncivilized savagery? How different was their idea than that of the empires that came before?

Two gentlemen of Southern extraction, stepping on to a sandbar of the Mississippi river with their seconds, servants, and matched pistols with the intent of loosing shots to death or glory engage in a ritual of antiquity and honor. The deed itself, of spilling heart's blood on the sand... of savagely seperating another's soul from it's earthly abode... of killing... remains just as savage. But the ritual, the tradition, the chivalry is beautiful and noble. Without it is simple savagery.

Savagery, as you have pointed out before, is the constant in human interaction thru our history. But I would say that what sets the victor apart is their sense of infaliable civilization and the value of an honor-concept.

Whom should we emulate? The savage, or the noble?

I fail to see any nobility in the world but only savagery.

Where does there exist nobility?

When has nobility ever existed to which you describe?

People describe themselves under lots of things many which are unreal and pretentious.

Barbarism is the way of human beings not some pretend nobility.

In reality the distinguishment of nobility is a delusional one set up by those who wish to see themselves as somthing other than what they actually are and what they partake in when it concerns existence.

SpearBrave
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 02:36 AM
Whereabouts do you live, SpearBrave?
I like the sound of the way men treat women there....

I live in beautiful hilly Southwestern Indiana, USA......miss:)

It is a rural area with few big towns, and a mostly Germanic population.

Zimobog
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 11:27 PM
I apologize for all the questions I will ask in this posting. I am hoping to examine your thoughts and the basis of them closer.



I fail to see any nobility in the world but only savagery.

While I am capable of seeing the difference and admiring the nobility and honor in my friends and enemies.

What do you personally admire most in others and in people and civilizations of the past?

If I said, "How do you like Howard"?

Would you answer, "Oh yes, I like him very much as he is a total savage"?

Who is admirable in your estimation?


Where does there exist nobility?

When has nobility ever existed to which you describe?

I have mentioned already some good examples of civilizations in which the men (and women) had in themselves a sense of honor and nobility. It is my view that this sense of honor and nobility, both as individuals and a society, set them apart from the savages they bested in all things and by all measures.

My examples were in three paragraphs of my last post.



People describe themselves under lots of things many which are unreal and pretentious.

Such as genius? Beauty? Wisdom? What concepts shall we embrace and which shall we discard? If all is discarded except savagery than civilization fails and we are animals. By virtue and honor we can set ourselves apart from the animals.


Barbarism is the way of human beings not some pretend nobility.

In reality the distinguishment of nobility is a delusional one set up by those who wish to see themselves as somthing other than what they actually are and what they partake in when it concerns existence.

Moral realitivism is the delusion. "Nothing matters" is the delusion. Barbarism does exist and is at the heart of the animal-man and the higher minded man has always aspired to tame this; to make more of himself than just an animal.

I don't feel that I am denying my inner "werewolf" by admiring nobility and honor because I personally need no reminder of the savagery men are capable of.

I wonder if our difference in opinion has a basis in our own personal aspirations for ourselves. Do you wish to become so much more a savage as much as I wish to become more of a noble?

Has your own animal-man been denied the hunt, or revenge, or lust, or combat? I have had my fill of such things for now and wish higher things for myself.

Sigurd
Thursday, December 23rd, 2010, 12:10 AM
I fail to see any nobility in the world but only savagery.

We only see that which we wish to see. You wish to see the world as a bunch of savages, you'll see it as a bunch of savages. I prefer to see the world as a lot of misguided folk led by a tiny group of savages; and perhaps an equally tiny group of people who are like precious stones: Rare, but valuable.

Those are still worth fighting for, the little bit of nobility and the little bit of beauty I still see in my surroundings remind me each time anew that it's not a hopeless cause and that eventually, all members of our folk can live by such an 'aristocratic principle' in being the best, noblest and generally most honourable people they can be.

The spark of nobility is still present somewhere amongst our folk, any spark that's not yet gone out can be rekindled to a powerful and warming fire.:)


Where does there exist nobility?

Like with many good things in life, so it is with nobility: Don't go looking for nobility, if you're true and noble of heart yourself, then nobility will find you. You just need to notice it and cherish it even if it's just minor and you come across it once in a blue moon. In denying it exists I'm afraid you raise yourself aught above let's say a woman you criticise for no longer appreciating chivalry. ;)


In reality the distinguishment of nobility is a delusional one set up by those who wish to see themselves as somthing other than what they actually are and what they partake in when it concerns existence.

We should always stride to be the best we can, as such setting oneself as a goal to live noble isn't a wrongful stride. Even if it isn't going to be attained fully by all who seek it, it doesn't hurt to aspire to be good and noble, even almost godly. Man is an animal for sure, but a thinking animal with the capability to adhere to complex and abstract concepts, this is a capability we should not shy back from taking on when there is good to come from it. :thumbup

GroeneWolf
Thursday, December 23rd, 2010, 08:07 PM
My opinion about why the gentlemen is an endangered specie, is because our popular culture hardly promotes it anymore. I know from my own childhood cartoon shows like prince Valiant. And other shows aimed at the young that inspired me to adopt certain patterns of conduct. But now it all that is aimed at the young seems of a certain quality that does not need to be mentioned.

But I have noticed that in most cases girls do appreciate gentlemen like manners. Alto at some times I do get a bit depressed about it, alto I am not perfect in my manners and behavior. But being a gentlemen now a days just makes you the guy you can talk about certain kind of ex-boyfriends and other things :( .

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Personally I pride myself on NOT being a gentleman!

The brotherhood aspects to Chivalry or Bushido or any other martial code are still relevant in the aspect of treating ones fellow men, but after almost half a century of hate directed at men by the women in this society, I'm not too keen on opening doors for them or giving them any sort of advantage over my fellow man.

That does not mean that I don't believe in compassion, but I'm not going to force a courtesy on someone, when it will be ignored, taken for granted, or perceived as an out right insult. Only a stupid individual would engage in such.

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:09 AM
But being a gentlemen now a days just makes you the guy you can talk about certain kind of ex-boyfriends and other things :( .


All that means, is that women view "Gentlemen" as ether Gay, or Chumps, they can take advantage of, but nothing more than that.

Does not sound like a winning strategy to me.

Hilderinc
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:15 AM
Personally I pride myself on NOT being a gentleman!

The brotherhood aspects to Chivalry or Bushido or any other martial code are still relevant in the aspect of treating ones fellow men, but after almost half a century of hate directed at men by the women in this society, I'm not too keen on opening doors for them or giving them any sort of advantage over my fellow man.

That does not mean that I don't believe in compassion, but I'm not going to force a courtesy on someone, when it will be ignored, taken for granted, or perceived as an out right insult. Only a stupid individual would engage in such.

Then that means they have beaten you!

Men have always been the hard workers taken for granted who were stepped on, and for what? The betterment of our tribe and people, and personal satisfaction in knowing what you have accomplished. Society has never given us anything and never will, this is because we work for society. Our selflessness (only when directed towards our own people) is our biggest strength; we must do what we do not for rewards or recognition, but for betterment for us all and self discipline.

A little metaphorical, but I hope you understand what I mean. We are not going to change the ungrateful and rude feminists and others by sinking down to their own level.

Meister
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:28 AM
Everyone always talks about how Gentlemen are rare now, but no one ever talks about the extinction of the lady.

I will on occasion hold doors open for women or let them out first etc, and very rarely do hear a "thank you".

Feminism killed off the Gentlemen. Men knew where and what they were in society and then femisnism came along and turned everything on its head and men no longer knew what to do, if they opened a door would they be chastised for it etc Men were believed in thinking that all of these things were unnecessary because women were now like men and shouldn't be treated any differently.

And now many women compete with men in terms of drinking and traditional male bevaviour what are you supposed to think.

I will save my gentlemanly behaviour for real ladies thanks.

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Then that means they have beaten you!

Men have always been the hard workers taken for granted who were stepped on, and for what? The betterment of our tribe and people, and personal satisfaction in knowing what you have accomplished. Society has never given us anything and never will, this is because we work for society. Our selflessness (only when directed towards our own people) is our biggest strength; we must do what we do not for rewards or recognition, but for betterment for us all and self discipline.

A little metaphorical, but I hope you understand what I mean. We are not going to change the ungrateful and rude feminists and others by sinking down to their own level.


But see that is just it.

I have a real problem sacrificing for fat, arrogant Jewish, entailment socialist, and his prostitutes, who run this society. Especially when they will take all you give and mock you for doing it. The ONLY way I intend intentionally, to help those sorts of people is 6 ft under.

There were two, types of Warriors in ancient Japan, one was the upper class Bushido practicing Samurai, and the other was the lower class Rural Ninja. Both were feared warriors, but the Ninja had two great advantages, 1) the people in the country side. 2) His only real code was practical combat.

And even the Samurai took note, because a Samurai tradition is to keep a Bow staff in the restroom. And it was not there for plunging the toilet.

Caledonian
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 09:09 AM
I apologize for all the questions I will ask in this posting. I am hoping to examine your thoughts and the basis of them closer.




While I am capable of seeing the difference and admiring the nobility and honor in my friends and enemies.

What do you personally admire most in others and in people and civilizations of the past?

If I said, "How do you like Howard"?

Would you answer, "Oh yes, I like him very much as he is a total savage"?

Who is admirable in your estimation?



I have mentioned already some good examples of civilizations in which the men (and women) had in themselves a sense of honor and nobility. It is my view that this sense of honor and nobility, both as individuals and a society, set them apart from the savages they bested in all things and by all measures.

My examples were in three paragraphs of my last post.




Such as genius? Beauty? Wisdom? What concepts shall we embrace and which shall we discard? If all is discarded except savagery than civilization fails and we are animals. By virtue and honor we can set ourselves apart from the animals.



Moral realitivism is the delusion. "Nothing matters" is the delusion. Barbarism does exist and is at the heart of the animal-man and the higher minded man has always aspired to tame this; to make more of himself than just an animal.

I don't feel that I am denying my inner "werewolf" by admiring nobility and honor because I personally need no reminder of the savagery men are capable of.

I wonder if our difference in opinion has a basis in our own personal aspirations for ourselves. Do you wish to become so much more a savage as much as I wish to become more of a noble?

Has your own animal-man been denied the hunt, or revenge, or lust, or combat? I have had my fill of such things for now and wish higher things for myself.


I apologize for all the questions I will ask in this posting. I am hoping to examine your thoughts and the basis of them closer.

Very well. :thumbup


While I am capable of seeing the difference and admiring the nobility and honor in my friends and enemies.

For me nobility is a myth and is merely a reference of self flattery or idolization.


What do you personally admire most in others and in people and civilizations of the past?

I admire quite a few things all of which I don't know can correlate directly with this conversation.

I will say however that the only thing this existence respects is might and force revolving around power along with the lack of.

Everything revolves around the will to survive.

For me that is all there is where everything else is just a illusion, deception, or triviality.

There is only competition filled with winners and losers along with everybody in between.


If I said, "How do you like Howard"?

Would you answer, "Oh yes, I like him very much as he is a total savage"?

For me everything revolves around the structure of power and hierarchy.

My description of him would revolve around those factors but quite literally in the structure of power everybody is savages considering everybody is willing to do what they have to in achieving their personal ends to which everybody else are just possible means to their individual end one way or another.

With that you get the inevitable savagery that unfolds.




Who is admirable in your estimation?

Under what context?


I have mentioned already some good examples of civilizations in which the men (and women) had in themselves a sense of honor and nobility.

And yet how easily notions of honor and nobility are sacrificed upon social inequality or amongst human depravity.......


It is my view that this sense of honor and nobility, both as individuals and a society, set them apart from the savages they bested in all things and by all measures.

And for me such a description is a illusional construct.......


Such as genius? Beauty? Wisdom? What concepts shall we embrace and which shall we discard? If all is discarded except savagery than civilization fails and we are animals. By virtue and honor we can set ourselves apart from the animals.

There are endless characteristics yet all of them revolve around the ego.


If all is discarded except savagery than civilization fails and we are animals. By virtue and honor we can set ourselves apart from the animals.

We are animals. [Highly intelligent animals.]

The distinguishment is built upon smoke and mirrors......

Virtue and honor again for me don't really exist beyond self professing.

Civilization is filled with beasts and animals that growl, grunt, and make meat pies out of each other.


Moral realitivism is the delusion. "Nothing matters" is the delusion. Barbarism does exist and is at the heart of the animal-man and the higher minded man has always aspired to tame this; to make more of himself than just an animal.

The so called higher man which in reality is merely the alpha is very much a animal like everybody else what seperates him is the ability to use his acquired intelligence to control, contain, and direct everybody else that he comes in contact with. That's it.

His intelligence is a manifestation of the earthly and it's uses are used to gather all the earthly pleasures for oneself of all he can muster illustrating that however intelligent he may be his animal desires are very similar to everybody elses that dominate his existential positioning.


I don't feel that I am denying my inner "werewolf" by admiring nobility and honor because I personally need no reminder of the savagery men are capable of.

For me expressions of nobility, honor, and virtue of oneself is merely descriptions of a sort of self arrogant form of grandeur in devising a over hyped sense of pride in one's own being deluding oneself to be seperate or distinct from others.


I wonder if our difference in opinion has a basis in our own personal aspirations for ourselves. Do you wish to become so much more a savage as much as I wish to become more of a noble? I'm a man that values success and winning above all else where honor, virtue, or nobility possess very little use to me.

I'm a man that values success and winning whereby upon failure die trying.


Has your own animal-man been denied the hunt, or revenge, or lust, or combat? I have had my fill of such things for now and wish higher things for myself.
I embrace my animal side to which the follies of civilization I view as impediments that need only to be overcome.

Zimobog
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 08:40 PM
I admire quite a few things all of which I don't know can correlate directly with this conversation.


I would like to hear about the traits you admire in past civilizations, please. How they correlate is that that which one admires (as you say, "idolize") reveals much about the mindset.


My description of him would revolve around those factors but quite literally in the structure of power everybody is savages considering everybody is willing to do what they have to in achieving their personal ends to which everybody else are just possible means to their individual end one way or another.

With that you get the inevitable savagery that unfolds.

So how would you ajudge the success or failure of Hypothetical Howard? Is it safe to say that you follow the teachings of Redbeard to his conclusion as well; that material and financial wealth is the only sign of success and manhood? Are the savage's skulls and loot now replaced with sacks of bank notes and stock certificates?




Quote:
Who is admirable in your estimation?

Under what context?

I can clarify a bit: What do you admire most in other people in the context of success/failure? Is mere survival enough to gain your admiration, or is there something else?


For me everything revolves around the structure of power and hierarchy.

How do you veiw your supervisor at work or the owners of the various buisnesses you have worked at? Are all social hierarchies representitive of this natural domination?

If success or failure all that matters are your current financial and life situations a result of being unable to be successfull in a savage world?


For me expressions of nobility, honor, and virtue of oneself is merely descriptions of a sort of self arrogant form of grandeur in devising a over hyped sense of pride in one's own being deluding oneself to be seperate or distinct from others.

I wouldn't say they are arrogant, delusional or over-hyped. I would say that it is a luxury that one can afford one's self to improve the quality of his society and the lives of those who are close to him. There are times that such luxuries cannot be afforded and savagery must be foremost.

Savagery may be the basis of life just as letters are the basis of words and words are the basis of sentences and that in turn is the basis of communication. If we live life like animal savages it is like trying to communicate by shouting out letters. We humans are capable of more.

If savages are the pinnacle of humanity, I would expect that the natives of such exotic locales as Timbuktu, Tunisia, and Sudan would place high in your regard .


For me nobility is a myth and is merely a reference of self flattery or idolization.
For me that is all there is where everything else is just a illusion, deception, or triviality.

If that is so, why would you be bothered to preserve culture, race, or nationality? Nothing seems to matter in this outlook but survival of the individual (ie you), nothing matters but the individual's whims (ie yours), nothing matters but individual survival: Radical individualism is not really your "thing" but that is what I am hearing.

Caledonian
Wednesday, January 19th, 2011, 08:06 AM
I would like to hear about the traits you admire in past civilizations, please. How they correlate is that that which one admires (as you say, "idolize") reveals much about the mindset.



So how would you ajudge the success or failure of Hypothetical Howard? Is it safe to say that you follow the teachings of Redbeard to his conclusion as well; that material and financial wealth is the only sign of success and manhood? Are the savage's skulls and loot now replaced with sacks of bank notes and stock certificates?





I can clarify a bit: What do you admire most in other people in the context of success/failure? Is mere survival enough to gain your admiration, or is there something else?



How do you veiw your supervisor at work or the owners of the various buisnesses you have worked at? Are all social hierarchies representitive of this natural domination?

If success or failure all that matters are your current financial and life situations a result of being unable to be successfull in a savage world?



I wouldn't say they are arrogant, delusional or over-hyped. I would say that it is a luxury that one can afford one's self to improve the quality of his society and the lives of those who are close to him. There are times that such luxuries cannot be afforded and savagery must be foremost.

Savagery may be the basis of life just as letters are the basis of words and words are the basis of sentences and that in turn is the basis of communication. If we live life like animal savages it is like trying to communicate by shouting out letters. We humans are capable of more.

If savages are the pinnacle of humanity, I would expect that the natives of such exotic locales as Timbuktu, Tunisia, and Sudan would place high in your regard .



If that is so, why would you be bothered to preserve culture, race, or nationality? Nothing seems to matter in this outlook but survival of the individual (ie you), nothing matters but the individual's whims (ie yours), nothing matters but individual survival: Radical individualism is not really your "thing" but that is what I am hearing.


I would like to hear about the traits you admire in past civilizations, please. How they correlate is that that which one admires (as you say, "idolize") reveals much about the mindset.

A great deal of what I admire from past civilizations and eras don't really exist all that much in the conventional modern world anymore.

I admire how women used to be in the past but aren't anymore.

I admire how past societies were less institutional than they are today where people by far had more independence within their self autonomy.

I admire how there were more close communities and families within the past amongst each other.

I admire how people sometimes solved their social problems with the sword in the past instead with the slave fictional morality that we have now.

I admire how people in our ancient past lived more within the natural world and had a deep respect for survival to which our artificial surroundings today fully takes everything for granted by comparison.

I suppose those are just a few admirations I could list amongst many others.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for within your questions.


So how would you ajudge the success or failure of Hypothetical Howard? Is it safe to say that you follow the teachings of Redbeard to his conclusion as well; that material and financial wealth is the only sign of success and manhood? Are the savage's skulls and loot now replaced with sacks of bank notes and stock certificates?

For me everything is material being the materialist that I am and every interaction of the social spectrum can be reduced materially.

Wealth through that of currency is merely a symbol of power since for me the very definition of success is the acquiring of power.


Are the savage's skulls and loot now replaced with sacks of bank notes and stock certificates?
Yes.


I can clarify a bit: What do you admire most in other people in the context of success/failure? Is mere survival enough to gain your admiration, or is there something else?

I admire success only. Failure is to be only shunned.

Survival I admire only upon the reaching of success through struggle.


How do you veiw your supervisor at work or the owners of the various buisnesses you have worked at? Are all social hierarchies representitive of this natural domination?

Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.

For me a great deal of modern hierarchy is perversed and diseased by that of slave morality or morals.

To me natural domination is somthing completely lacking in the modern paradigm of civilization since power now is given to any fool who merely passes the approval of institutions instead of the individual acquiring it on their own capabilities or merits.


If success or failure all that matters are your current financial and life situations a result of being unable to be successfull in a savage world?

I blame my past and current failures on my lack of ability to cope with the collective slave morality I find myself suffocated with on a daily basis.

Although slowly over a period of time I've become adaptive in being able to endure it by learning how to play the game so to speak by utilizing the perverse system against itself.


I wouldn't say they are arrogant, delusional or over-hyped. I would say that it is a luxury that one can afford one's self to improve the quality of his society and the lives of those who are close to him. There are times that such luxuries cannot be afforded and savagery must be foremost.


Luxories are built upon the containment, control, and conquest of others.


Savagery may be the basis of life just as letters are the basis of words and words are the basis of sentences and that in turn is the basis of communication. If we live life like animal savages it is like trying to communicate by shouting out letters. We humans are capable of more.

Are we capable of more? I find that to based upon many assumptions of people themselves.


If savages are the pinnacle of humanity, I would expect that the natives of such exotic locales as Timbuktu, Tunisia, and Sudan would place high in your regard .

For me savagery and barbarianism is the norm around the world.

For me it has been the norm since the beginning of civilization which up til this present it is unlikely to ever change in the future.

You assume some parts of the world are more better in comparison to others but I would argue that the instance of savagery and barbarianism around the world are merely different from one place to another.

How is western civilization less savage and barbaric in comparison to the rest of the world?

What about our mercenary armed forces currently in the middle east defending the interests of oil tycoons and natural resource obtainment by killing?

The distinguishment is a illusion.


If that is so, why would you be bothered to preserve culture, race, or nationality? Nothing seems to matter in this outlook but survival of the individual (ie you), nothing matters but the individual's whims (ie yours), nothing matters but individual survival: Radical individualism is not really your "thing" but that is what I am hearing.

Even individual savages and barbarians will band together with each other out of mutual interests in achieving similar mutual goals.

Allegiances, alliances, devotion, and such are no different in a world ruled by savagery or barbarianism.

Groups and mobs of people can be the most savage of them all where isolated individuals pale in comparison by their own acts.

What I say sounds radical only because it is a perspective that is uncommon but I think personally that my point of view is the most realistic.

It's true that I support a socialized form of collectivism but the competition of collected individuals is not any less savage or barbaric.

Collective societies can't exist without savagery or barbarism because they are incapable of any alternative way where individuals and groups are pitted against each other which always end up to conflicted hostility.

What is needed however I think is a strong mentally enlightened leadership to lead collective societies by a iron fist keeping a sort of equilibrium between the egoism of individuals and the collective welfare of all individuals living within the same space that compete amongst each other.

Maybe this will give you some insight into my version of collective socialism.

Yes I support deep individualism where the individual is the seat of all the world but I'm not so stupid to know where if it becomes too much that it becomes self destructive as well.

I always aspire towards the median in things looking for the best of balances.

renownedwolf
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 12:18 AM
Tonight I had a discussion with my partner about manners and the art of being a gentleman. She believed that I still had quite 'old fashioned' and ingrained mannerisms regarding this, such as opening doors, offering my coat when it was cold, and walking on the right hand side along the street etc. She said that she really likes the fact that I do these things and that it makes her feel more respected and even protected as a woman.

Though she did comment that seeing as we have been together for eight years I have a tendency of being crass and rather blunt. Whether this is just our familiarity and me knowing I don't need to impress as much and won't offend as easily I do not know. Also she mentioned that I only seem to do it at home rather than in public.

I personally believe that being a gentleman is an important thing for boys to be taught from a young age.

Do you? Or is it an outdated concept?

Men, do you consider yourself a gentleman?

Ladies do you appreciate gentlemanly behaviour?

What do you all consider to be gentlemanly behaviour?

When is it OK not to be a gentleman?

KingBritannia
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 12:39 AM
Tonight I had a discussion with my partner about manners and the art of being a gentleman. She believed that I still had quite 'old fashioned' and ingrained mannerisms regarding this, such as opening doors, offering my coat when it was cold, and walking on the right hand side along the street etc. She said that she really likes the fact that I do these things and that it makes her feel more respected and even protected as a woman.

Though she did comment that seeing as we have been together for eight years I have a tendency of being crass and rather blunt. Whether this is just our familiarity and me knowing I don't need to impress as much and won't offend as easily I do not know. Also she mentioned that I only seem to do it at home rather than in public.

I personally believe that being a gentleman is an important thing for boys to be taught from a young age.

Do you? Or is it an outdated concept?

Men, do you consider yourself a gentleman?

Ladies do you appreciate gentlemanly behaviour?

What do you all consider to be gentlemanly behaviour?

When is it OK not to be a gentleman?

I can be a gentleman when I want to be. I'm a bit like you, I do things such as opening doors, walking on the right hand side of the path and of course letting ladies go first, but I can also be quite crass such as burping and farting, but I just respond with "it's just natural so what's the problem?" :P

Elfriede
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 12:55 AM
I really can't stress how much I appreciate it when men act like gentlemen and when women act like ladies. It's a topic I am always ready to talk (or in some cases argue) about. Absolutely, we should be taught these things from a young age. It makes me so happy when I see men holding doors or when I'm offered a coat. I can't stand to hear about these women who act ungrateful or upset about these things so I always make a point to smile and say thank you whenever a door is opened for me etc...

Unfortunately, these mannerisms are becoming rarer and rarer. It's really terrible. I'm going to make sure my future children are thoroughly familiar with these types of actions. Of course, girls should also be taught about these things. I'm seeing more and more women and girls act like complete slobs.

It's OK to "be yourself" around people you know really well of course. As long as you aren't making anyone uncomfortable. For example I have a friend who I absolutely adore but she will burp really loudly in front of just about anyone. I always want to wag my finger and tell her that that is not ladylike behavior :P

EQ Fighter
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 01:32 AM
I really can't stress how much I appreciate it when men act like gentlemen and when women act like ladies. It's a topic I am always ready to talk (or in some cases argue) about. Absolutely, we should be taught these things from a young age. It makes me so happy when I see men holding doors or when I'm offered a coat. I can't stand to hear about these women who act ungrateful or upset about these things so I always make a point to smile and say thank you whenever a door is opened for me etc...

Unfortunately, these mannerisms are becoming rarer and rarer. It's really terrible. I'm going to make sure my future children are thoroughly familiar with these types of actions. Of course, girls should also be taught about these things. I'm seeing more and more women and girls act like complete slobs.

It's OK to "be yourself" around people you know really well of course. As long as you aren't making anyone uncomfortable. For example I have a friend who I absolutely adore but she will burp really loudly in front of just about anyone. I always want to wag my finger and tell her that that is not ladylike behavior :P

Obviously the flip side of "Being a Gentleman" is "Being a Lady".

But lets face the facts, Cultural Marxism has done a number on the current society, and as a rule they put emphasis on the LOWEST common denominator in behaviour.

In this society it does not pay to be a "Gentleman" or a "Lady" in society because of the other Marxist influenced lowlifes in the culture.

Also it does not stop you from practising such behaviour among the people you know and love. And let the Marxist Lowlifes fend for themselves.

Herr Weigelt
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 04:02 AM
I try and keep these formerly widely accepted male behavioral norms in mind whenever I'm out and about. I try and either let others in before me and open the door, especially for the elderly and women.

Thusnelda
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Ladies do you appreciate gentlemanly behaviour?

I love men who act like a gentleman and show good manners. :) The problem is that I´m too much of a rural woman to know about all the good manners to show them the men in reverse...:P Some rules I don´t know, some I tend to forget and some I think are overdone.

For example, I´m quite clumsy and don´t know all rules of etiquette and Knigge. That doesn´t mean that me and my family act like tribal cavemen but I would be hopelessly lost and clueless on a business lunch or gala dinner! :D Which with fork or spoon on which side of the plate do I eat this or that? What´s with the napkin? And why does it matter so much anyway?
I´m also accustomed to talking while eating: :fshy: A table where people don´t talk with each other while eating is unknown to me.

So yes, I appreciate men who respect women (like it was common in our old Germanic societies) and act like real gentlemen but they shouldn´t be so stuck-up and snobbish that it´s no fun anymore. Well, I think a "relaxed" or "lax" gentleman would be my ideal. I couldn´t handle a man with James Bond-like manners, that would be incompatible with my peasant-self. Chances are high that he would get on my nerves with his manners in less than 30 minutes. :P

(And if you have to burp while sitting on the table then don´t panic and just try to do it softly while holding your hand before your mouth, that´s enough. We aren´t in Rome but in Germanic woodlands after all, rawr! :D)

Ocko
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 07:02 PM
To be a gentlemen/lady is following middle upper class behaviour.

I gave it up as a learned behavior (though I still do some things habitually).

I do what I feel is the role of a men and what comes natural in regards to your woman.

That gentlemen behavior is nowadays pretty outdated and sometimes I do ot want to make myself into a clown. I also want the respect of other men and that pretty much means I don't do 'weird' things.

For sure it means that I do deal with the shortcomings of my woman in a calm and loving matter and the aim not to be aggressive or demeaning. I certainly have a strong input as what I want to do and in which direction I go into the future and take the input and wishes of m woman into that.

A basic behavior and some societal standards in a woman certainly helps. I understand that women operate differently and accept and deal with it.

It is more of a felt supportive and protective behavior and supplying a steadiness than a fixed code of behavior.

There are actually 64 rules given by Odin between men and women and I consider those to be more important.

Thorbrand
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, 07:20 PM
It's the way I was brought up and I the way I have taught my own children. It sits up there with not littering, stealing, etc., and cherishing the family and culture of your forbears.

Thusnelda - I'm with you on good chat and conversation whilst eating (and also the family sitting together at meal times around the table - no tv meals!!!). It's a time to come together and share the day.

GroeneWolf
Thursday, April 12th, 2012, 06:15 AM
She believed that I still had quite 'old fashioned' and ingrained mannerisms regarding this, such as opening doors,

I think you mean holding the door open.

Which is outdated, today one is expected to slam the door in the face of the person behind you. Oke, that is not really expected;). But I do witness that most people no longer take the trouble of holding the door open for people who are close behind and instead just walk straight on.


and walking on the right hand side along the street etc.

Even if the road is on the left side?:-O Because the purpose of that thing is to protect the female from splashing water caused by passing cars.


I personally believe that being a gentleman is an important thing for boys to be taught from a young age.

One sees today the effects of no longer enforcing certain common courtesy rules in the young and what effect it has on society at large. Littering, trolling, the popularity of music styles that objectifies women, etc.


Do you? Or is it an outdated concept?

One could say that certain outer forms of such behavior are outdated, however the basis of it is not.


Men, do you consider yourself a gentleman?

A perfect one? No.


of course letting ladies go first,

There are situations where one is not supposed to let ladies go first. In these situations the guy is expected to act as a scout to see if it is a good place for the lady to enter and/or of there is a free place for them. Also you are the first one to climb and decent stairs.


Which with fork or spoon on which side of the plate do I eat this or that?

If the spoons, forks and knives are properly ordered there would little problems with that. Since one uses them from with the ones on the outside first.


What´s with the napkin?

You lay it out on your pants.


And why does it matter so much anyway?

I would have to look that up.


I´m also accustomed to talking while eating: :fshy:

It is forbidden to talk during a meal? And not just no talking with food in your mouth (which also helps preventing food getting into your air pipe)? That is a new one for me. All I heard about that is that certain subjects might be considered taboo on the dinner table. Depending on which area of the world you are.

Huginn ok Muninn
Thursday, April 12th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Well, I was taught all the proper manners and reminded of them constantly as a child so they are pretty much ingrained now. This is the way to raise children in a culture.. just tell them what is expected of them, and repeat as needed. When they turn into teens, it will be a relief to have a grownup around instead of a thug.

This is also something of a test for me.. if a woman appreciates being treated properly and has good manners in her turn, it's a really good sign. If she just walks past without so much as a look when the door is opened for her, I know she's not worth my time.

Thorbrand
Thursday, April 12th, 2012, 08:04 AM
To be a gentlemen/lady is following middle upper class behaviour.
That gentlemen behavior is nowadays pretty outdated and sometimes I do ot want to make myself into a clown. I also want the respect of other men and that pretty much means I don't do 'weird' things.

Sure, but in the working class background I come from it is nothing to do with 'class', rather it has to do with respect and, yes, what are considered 'old fashioned values' - which I see nothing wrong with. It was certainly something that I saw and experienced in a working class culture again and again - it is only a sad reflection of our degenerating times that such acts are considered less the norm.

For my part I make sure I do the gentlemanly thing because it is the right thing to do for me and in order to set an example to others - like giving up my seat on the bus/train for an elderly person or pregnant woman, parent with small child, etc. If other men don't think I deserve their respect for acting like a gentleman then they don't deserve my respect!

Thusnelda
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 03:33 PM
If the spoons, forks and knives are properly ordered there would little problems with that. Since one uses them from with the ones on the outside first.
But how should I know that they are used from the outside to the inside? ;) Well, I doubt that I´ll ever have a business lunch and gala dinner, anyway. I prefer laid-back restaurants or typical Bavarian Wirtshäuser.

http://www.br.de/fernsehen/bayerisches-fernsehen/sendungen/lavita/lavita-wochenende-pfarrer108~_v-image512_-6a0b0d9618fb94fd9ee05a84a1099a13ec9d3321 .png%3Fversion%3D1330948640407


You lay it out on your pants.
I always thought they are there to clean your mouth or hands.

It is forbidden to talk during a meal? And not just no talking with food in your mouth (which also helps preventing food getting into your air pipe)?
Well, I guess I can´t fully preclude the possibility that I talk some words with a few bits in the mouth but it´s not a general thing and it depends on the meal and the people around. :fshy: If something is really tasty I can´t wait with my feedback until I swallowed it down. I guess it´s a matter of upbringing and I don´t think it´s icky when someone has to speak some words while eating. As long as the mouth isn´t completely full, as long as everything is understandable and as long as one doesn´t disgorge everything while trying to talk...:D

You people make me feel like a backwood barbarian now. :( That´s mean. :fsweat:

http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2009/11/cavewoman112709.jpg

Wanna have a seat in our dining room? :P

Hersir
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 07:09 PM
I consider myself a gentleman, I like to open doors for ladies, give up my seat on the bus, carry grocery bags and similar. But I guess there is always room for improvement. I like traditional roles.

Once I held the door open for a woman when me and some friends were going to a pub, the girl got mad and said she could perfectly open the door herself. :|

The Horned God
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 08:52 PM
To me being a gentleman means not being rude to anyone and not accepting rudeness from anyone.

Sindig_og_stoisk
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 09:17 PM
I consider my a gentleman, I like to open doors for ladies, give up my seat on the bus, carry grocery bags and similar. But I guess there is always room for improvement. I like traditional roles.

Once I held the door open for a women when me and some friends were going to a pub, the girl got mad and said she could perfectly open the door herself. :|

I know the feeling: I always (persistently bordering on stubbornly) hold the doors for ladies at the university and over the years I have gotten all kinds of responses you can imagine: Some women smile kindly in return and some of them really kindly - like they would marry me if only I asked. Others do not seem to know how to respond to my gesture and simply rush right through the door while avoiding eye contact at all costs. And then there are of course those "progressive and liberated" types who seem to take offence and give you the "what-the-f##k-are-you-doing?"-look.

However, the oddest response I have so far gotten was one girl whom I held the door for when we were both on our way to the campus library. The following day we were both approaching the same door again and all of a sudden she ran ahead of me, grabbed the door handle and held the door for me to pass through, giving me a wide smile as she did. How is a gentleman supposed to respond to that?

Aeternitas
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Gentlemen are awesome, especially my sweetheart. :heartbeat

Does anyone remember this (https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php/78469-Advanced-Censor?)? :P

He puts on my coat, opens doors for me, extends me his arm, carries my shopping (this is a damn hard task :-D:). It can get a bit annoying at times if I'm walking on the "wrong" side of the road and don't even realize it and have to switch. And he puts up with my dramas quite well. :larmchair:

But really generally, I can't complain, he makes me feel adored. :fhdkiss:

Anyway although I appreciate gentlemanly behavior, I'm just not used to expecting it by default, especially not by members of my generation... it's not programmed in me and this can create awkward and even embarrassing situations. Sometimes I forget about it even when my partner wants to make a nice gesture for me, e.g. when he wanted to pull a chair for me in a cafe but I already pulled one for myself.

Manners and etiquette make sense to me up to a certain point. I'm not really comfortable in fancy restaurants and around snobbish people. I once saw someone eating a hamburger with a knife and fork, now that's a bit over the top. I think one can be classy without being pompous and superficial.

Schneider
Saturday, April 14th, 2012, 03:33 PM
I have grown up understanding that treating women differently is asking for trouble.

At work, it is harassment, or favoritism.

Then their are the women who try to influence men in management by encouraging an establishment of a different standard for them.

At work I absolutely do not act differently towards women.

I do hold doors open for people. I am polite. Man or women.

Since I have always lived at work these habits are the same later in life, when on the street.

I act differently around elderly. I understand the culture and what is expected.

Primus
Saturday, April 14th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Two ethical manuals that I might suggest are:

Havamal.

Rules of Civility & Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation, penned by George Washington but largely an English translation of a French Jesuit tome on etiquette.

http://www.foundationsmag.com/civility.html

GroeneWolf
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 02:42 PM
But how should I know that they are used from the outside to the inside? ;)

By reading about it, just like I did.;) Alto I forgot to mention there are different ways to order the cutlery and other things to be put on the table. So there are some variances.


I always thought they are there to clean your mouth or hands.

I give a score of 2 out of 3 ;) . That is indeed what they are for, the third function is to help protect your clothing.

And after then some looking up about the why you lay them down on your lap, because that serves as a signal to the staff that they can start serving and that the napkins will not be in the way.


http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2009/11/cavewoman112709.jpg

Wanna have a seat in our dining room? :P

What is on the fire :P ?

Gandalfur
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 07:21 PM
The Havemal and good ethics require men to respect women and behave as gentlemen at all times.

renownedwolf
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 09:32 PM
I don't go in for the effeminate rituals of being a gentleman, poncing about with what fork goes with what is just daft and pointless. GentleMAN! I'm more of a barbarian at heart and I believe that the acts of being a gentleman should have a practical use more than just for show.

Neophyte
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 10:31 PM
I don't go in for the effeminate rituals of being a gentleman, poncing about with what fork goes with what is just daft and pointless. GentleMAN! I'm more of a barbarian at heart and I believe that the acts of being a gentleman should have a practical use more than just for show.

1st: Proper manners is a way of respect.
2nd: Proper manners, or the lack thereof, shows who belongs and who does not.

There time and place for proper manners is always right here and now:

KGL1YD3qYg8

Between gentlemen, even a duel is no excuse for bad manners.

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 11:37 PM
Neophyte, you reminded me of this film... itself a must see for those interested in the gentlemanly and chivalrous art of the duel. :)

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And a more Germanic tradition, from the film version of Der Untertan:

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Thusnelda
Monday, April 16th, 2012, 03:34 PM
What is on the fire :P ?
http://www.potsdamer-maennerchor.de/images/spanferkel.jpg

Pig, what else? Like it´s good tradition among Germanic and Celtic tribes...:D

http://www.comicsbox.de/Comics/50JahreAsterix/AsterixWildschweine.jpg

EQ Fighter
Friday, April 27th, 2012, 03:51 AM
Once I held the door open for a woman when me and some friends were going to a pub, the girl got mad and said she could perfectly open the door herself. :|

Yes and next time you should let her do just that, along with other things that said individual might want.

I say a good Idea is to only treat a Lady like a Lady. Just because it is female, does not make it a Lady.

And Ladies are getting harder and harder to find these days but the B-s tend to grow on trees, they are a dime a dozen.

Personally I’m a Selective Gentleman, if the girl is worth it, then treat her like what she deserves. If she is a B then treat her likewise.

Fredericus Rex
Friday, April 27th, 2012, 05:45 AM
However, the oddest response I have so far gotten was one girl whom I held the door for when we were both on our way to the campus library. The following day we were both approaching the same door again and all of a sudden she ran ahead of me, grabbed the door handle and held the door for me to pass through, giving me a wide smile as she did. How is a gentleman supposed to respond to that?

She probably has a fancy for you...

Sigurd
Friday, April 27th, 2012, 06:55 AM
I try to be courteous and gentlemanly and show high enough regard for basic etiquette such as holding open doors, pulling out chairs, helping into coats, giving directions, walking the unsafe side of the sidewalk, helping over rifts, puddles etc., offering comfort and conversation, not rubbing into a woman's face I'm better at playing the darts, you-name-it. :)

I don't try to overdo it though, your behaviour should always measure up to the situation: You don't appear at the local barbeque with your set of silver cutlery and you don't wait for the queen to be toasted at the local village festival before rising from the table. At the same time, when eating with a business partner or with someone of higher social station, the very same mannerisms might be appropriate. It is also in the idea of gentlemanly behaviour to adapt to the company and not embarrass your host by over-etiquette or under-etiquette. ;)


I try and keep these formerly widely accepted male behavioral norms in mind whenever I'm out and about. I try and either let others in before me and open the door, especially for the elderly and women.

Don't forget however though, that when entering a restaurant or other establishment with a potentially unknown number of strangers, it is highly inappropriate for the man to let the woman walk in first: I was taught it is then considered important and appropriate that the man should make sure that the venue entered is safe for those under his protection (namely women, children, elderly) resp. deal with possible organisational arrangements (the reserved table etc. pp.) --- when you're a gentleman, you simply don't send your woman face-first into a wild-wild-west pub brawl. :shrug

Jens
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 12:02 AM
I think it is important to be a gentleman when dealing with ladies. The problem is that there are not very many women who know how to be a lady anymore. I refuse to treat a fat androgynous cow, who has no manners of her own, as a lady. Do not throw pearls before the swine they say. Respect is a two way street.

Herr Weigelt
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 04:37 AM
Don't forget however though, that when entering a restaurant or other establishment with a potentially unknown number of strangers, it is highly inappropriate for the man to let the woman walk in first: I was taught it is then considered important and appropriate that the man should make sure that the venue entered is safe for those under his protection (namely women, children, elderly) resp. deal with possible organisational arrangements (the reserved table etc. pp.) --- when you're a gentleman, you simply don't send your woman face-first into a wild-wild-west pub brawl. :shrug

Thanks for the tip. But I find it highly unlikely that people would enter a venue while a pub brawl or bar fight was breaking out. The day that I have children and/or elderly in tow with me while attending a bar or any other social event or occasion is a day that will never come.

Þoreiðar
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the tip. But I find it highly unlikely that people would enter a venue while a pub brawl or bar fight was breaking out. The day that I have children and/or elderly in tow with me while attending a bar or any other social event or occasion is a day that will never come.Of course not. I suspect the wording was meant to be taken as an 'extreme' to get the essence of the point across. Most manners and gestures are primarily symbolic, and not always performed with practicality in mind. Drawing the chair out for a woman or opening the door for her, for example, is likewise not done in the name of practicality, but in order to signify that you are looking out for her and are invested in her well-being. Opening the door or pulling out the chair herself would hardly decrease her level of physical comfort. It is just a way to display your consideration.

ProEuropa
Wednesday, June 7th, 2017, 11:46 PM
Honest, courageous, intelligent, proud and fair. Not hateful nor overly loving of strangers.

Elizabeth
Monday, July 24th, 2017, 03:26 AM
Of course not. I suspect the wording was meant to be taken as an 'extreme' to get the essence of the point across. Most manners and gestures are primarily symbolic, and not always performed with practicality in mind. Drawing the chair out for a woman or opening the door for her, for example, is likewise not done in the name of practicality, but in order to signify that you are looking out for her and are invested in her well-being. Opening the door or pulling out the chair herself would hardly decrease her level of physical comfort. It is just a way to display your consideration.

It is a strain to open some doors and pull out chairs. I guess it depends on the woman. I'm glad most supermarkets have automatic opening doors. There is one small Italian store I'd like to shop more often in but the door is so hard to open. I've given up and passed by the store instead of entering because the door is so hard to open. I just don't have the strength. I'd wait until someone was leaving and then try to wedge my way in. Seriously. And it looks bad straining to hold it open to get in. You'd think the owner doesn't want customers.

SpearBrave
Monday, July 24th, 2017, 12:39 PM
It is a strain to open some doors and pull out chairs. I guess it depends on the woman. I'm glad most supermarkets have automatic opening doors. There is one small Italian store I'd like to shop more often in but the door is so hard to open. I've given up and passed by the store instead of entering because the door is so hard to open. I just don't have the strength. I'd wait until someone was leaving and then try to wedge my way in. Seriously. And it looks bad straining to hold it open to get in. You'd think the owner doesn't want customers.

Is it me or do I live in some back water area where us men still open doors and pull out chairs for women?

The best is when you see very young boys trying open doors for women. By starting this young it becomes a habit and we do it without thinking.

Sjoerd
Tuesday, July 25th, 2017, 12:26 AM
Last month. I was gassing the truck up at a filling station in the city. I was walking up to door to go inside and pay and I noticed some people coming from their vehicles behind me.

First to come was an attractive twenty-something blonde woman. I held the door open as I always have for women. She smugly grinned and said that she doesn't need a man to hold open a door for her and that such gestures are archaic and even considered sexist these days.

I just replied with a wink "I wasn't holding it open for you miss. I'm doing it for the lady behind you."

An elderly woman with a cane made her way through the door and thanked me kindly. The younger woman looked rather offended at what I said and stomped away.

Ah feminism...

SpearBrave
Tuesday, July 25th, 2017, 03:04 AM
First to come was an attractive twenty-something blonde woman. I held the door open as I always have for women. She smugly grinned and said that she doesn't need a man to hold open a door for her and that such gestures are archaic and even considered sexist these days.

I just replied with a wink "I wasn't holding it open for you miss. I'm doing it for the lady behind you."

An elderly woman with a cane made her way through the door and thanked me kindly. The younger woman looked rather offended at what I said and stomped away.

Ah feminism...

I had something similar happen to me. :D

Mine was it was a glass door and I was on the inside and woman comes walking up to the door and without thinking I opened the door for and she said " I don't need a man to open any doors for me " in a real smart ass tone. I shut the door real quickly and she ran her face into the door. I just smiled and gave her a nod and walked away.

The sad thing was she was an attractive middle aged woman until she opened her mouth with her snotty attitude, then she became real ugly real fast. ;)

Norman Pride
Tuesday, July 25th, 2017, 11:15 AM
Where I live, chivalry and etiquette are rare, especially with the youth, they see it as outdated. Many even lack basic courtesy, like allowing others to exit before they enter somewhere. So seeing boys hold doors for women is a novelty. Both genders may find it awkward. Some women may confuse it with flirting, others with pity because it's usually a gesture for the elderly, like giving up seats on a bus. So if a woman is surprised by such gesture, it's not necessarily a display of bad manners, she might just misinterpret it and not want to feel like an inconvenience or cripple. That's also the attitude of some boys - she's young and able, she can hold her own door, so why should I?

Wyrd
Tuesday, October 17th, 2017, 03:45 AM
Yes, gentlemen are hard to find nowadays. I've noticed a tendency for media to push feminine, homosexual or androgynous images for men while women become masculinized or feminist. Isn't it ironic how feminists are typically unfeminine? It's true there are just as few ladies, but if we all give up old fashioned, courteous behavior, the situation only becomes worse...

Idis
Wednesday, October 18th, 2017, 09:12 AM
My husband is a gentleman and was always so. However, being a gentleman does not only mean being courteous and respectful towards women, it also means respecting the elderly and frail, opening and holding doors, being polite and displaying some etiquette in general.

Nachtengel
Wednesday, August 29th, 2018, 12:20 PM
GENTLEMEN ARE RARE: Columnist Sites Seven Things Millennial Men Are Missing

The other day I had just finished up a long day of studying at the library and I was riding the elevator down to the first floor. A guy probably a year or two older than me got on the elevator, and after we reached the first floor, he barged off, nearly knocking me over with his backpack. My first thought of course was “Wow..who raised you?!” Throughout my entire drive home, I thought about all of the things that most men have apparently stopped doing when it comes to being a gentleman.

1. Elevator etiquette

I don’t care how big of a hurry you’re in, or how slow she may walk, if there is a female or five on the elevator with you, you hold your arm in the door and let them off first.

2. R-E-S-P-E-C-T (sing it to the tune of Aretha Franklin)

If a female walks past you, for God’s sake, do not turn your head and stare at her behind. If she is talking to you, don’t stare down her shirt. If you’re driving down the road, don’t honk or yell “hey sexy!!!!” Gross. Undressing a girl with your eyes is one of the most disgusting and degrading things you could possibly do to her. Don’t worry about getting a date, you’ve already ruined it by being a pig.

3. Give up your seat.

I see a lack of this all the time. The other day I watched two guys get up and offer their seats to women, and one remained seating. I could tell which ones were raised correctly. Whether she is old, young, pregnant, active, fat, skinny, whatever; if the bus, classroom, etc. is full, get up from your chair and offer your seat to a female who is standing. If you chose to stay in your seat and force ladies to remain standing, make sure you remember to take off your maxi pad on the way out. (oops, did I just say that?!)

4. Pay attention to the fact that the world is more threatening for females

We are automatic targets everywhere we go, especially at night. I don’t need to get into the subject of rape. Walk your female coworkers to their cars at night. Just watch out for the women around you, they’ll definitely appreciate it.

5. Be polite.

Being polite covers a pretty wide range of things. For example, if you see someone struggling to reach something on the top shelf, grab it for her. If she’s struggling while trying to carry a flat screen television through Best Buy, offer to help. Even if she declines, at least you’ve been polite. A smile and a “good morning” can go a long way. Trust me, after we’ve had a rough morning of waking up late, rushing to work/class, and forgetting things at home, we do appreciate a little bit of random kindness.

About a month ago I was literally having the worst day possible.There was a guy in the elevator with me in the library (why am I always here?) and he asked how my day was going. Of course, I took this one minute opportunity to complain about nursing school and how much I had to study that day. He wished me good luck on my upcoming tests and to have a much better day. I didn’t even know his name but it made my WEEK.. and I still remember it. Compliment a lady today. They aren’t going to automatically assume that you want to have babies with them just because you said they look nice today. You would be surprised by what can make a woman smile. Little things, men. Little things.

6. Hold the door.

This subject is really difficult for me because i’ve had super awkward experiences. I’m one of those girls who always ends up having to sprint to the door because I feel bad that this guy is having to stand there and hold it open for me while I sluggishly walk to the door carrying two books, a binder, and a laptop. If we are pretty far behind, we don’t expect you to hold the door open for us. It makes us feel like we need to hurry to the door. However, if there is a woman walking behind you or relatively close behind you, do NOT let a door shut on her.

7. Driveway etiquette

I can already tell that I’m going to be one of those moms who is a stickler to this with her children. My son will know that he will NOT drive up to a female’s house and honk the horn or shoot her a text that says “I’m here, come get in the car.” If a guy comes to pick my future daughter up for a date, and he honks the horn or texts her to pick her up, I’m going to walk outside and tell him to go home. Walk up to the door, knock on the door, and then walk her to your car. At the end of the night, walk her back to her door. I don’t care if you’re just friends or you’re married. It’s what you’re supposed to do.

Guys: man up. Bring back gentlemanly behaviors. It would definitely be appreciated.https://clashdaily.com/2014/03/gentlemen-rare-columnist-sites-seven-things-millennial-men-missing/

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, August 29th, 2018, 12:38 PM
Columnist Sites Seven Things Millennial Men Are Missing :doh

SaxonPagan
Thursday, August 30th, 2018, 01:10 PM
Okay, so let’s examine this lady’s desiderata:

1, 3 & 6 are all problematic. I still think there’s a slight majority that would favour elevator etiquette, holding the door & giving up seats but you’d have to choose your females very carefully. One stroppy reaction could ruin your day and on most student campuses it would be positively DANGEROUS!!!

5. Being polite – this goes without saying. I’m not sure why this advice is aimed at males though when females could just as easily compliment males, who also have ‘bad days’ and need cheering up :confused

2. It depends what she’s wearing but yes, I’d say that ogling was generally something to be avoided.

4. Hmmmm … is the world really more threatening for females? ;) I could cite a lot of cases where the opposite is true.

7. Never been in a 'driveway etiquette’ situation. I agree about the texting when you’re sitting outside someone's house (texting is an obsession with some people! :|) but I wonder how many daughters would want their rude Mums telling their boyfriends to go home? I mean, is it really her business?

Anyway, I’m sure that most men would be happy to comply with the above demands if this was what all women wanted. The problem is that there’s no consensus and one woman’s ‘gentleman’ will be another woman’s ‘sexist’ :shrug

Gareth Lee Hunter
Thursday, August 30th, 2018, 02:11 PM
While always holding a door for both men and women of all ages, rather they're handicapped or not, I've only received a single disapproving expression from one middle-aged woman who never said anything against my considerate gesture though.

One older lady not only thanked me, but stated there weren't too many gentlemen left in the world. :)

Sometimes juveniles will act as if I don't exist while holding a door for them to enter or exit. Sign of the times, I suppose, which is sad. :(