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Siegfried
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 11:41 AM
This morning I read an article about Greece in the supposedly right-wing magazine Elsevier. This article portrayed the Greeks as a sort of half-castes, which couldn't even be considered proper Europeans. Not only did the author suggest Athens wouldn't look out of place in Anatolia or the Middle-East, it also stressed the 'Afro-Asiatic roots' of ancient Greek culture to the point of proclaiming that no serious historian would deny this and that claiming otherwise would amount to 'Northern European racism' and 'continental chauvinism'. According to the author, the Greek sense of identity is based on 'wishful thinking' and distortion of historical reality. The article quoted the book Black Athens, which to the best of my knowledge is a piece of Afrocentrist crap.
I'm going to write a letter to this magazine, and would ask you for some help in countering the author's arguments. I am especially interested in the ethnic make-up of the Ottoman empire, the supposed Phoenician and Egyptian invasions (and their impact on Greece) and the ethnoracial identity of these invaders. If you have any information on the similarity or dissimilarity of Egyptian and Greek deities and their respective origins, please share, since the author is suggesting Greek pagan religion isn't really Greek, but derived from the Egyptian cults.

Scoob
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 03:25 PM
Actually it's been found that modern Greeks do have some DNA that seems to come from an early migration from northeast Africa. Ancient authors such as Herodotus also wrote about this kind of thing: colonies from Egypt and so on. Of course that is only an element in modern Greeks, and not their primary place of origin. Anyone who's read some Classical literature also knows there were many blond heroes around, so obviously the people were mixed or at least not exclusively dark. But I do not think they were "Nordic" by any stretch of the imagination, at least not on average - although there well might have been pockets of somewhat Nordic-like communities.

As for Turkey: modern Turkey is genetically Anatolians (Byzantines) with a tiny bit (5% or less) of Central Asian genes, speaking a Turkish language and with Turkic cultural elements. So of course Turks are quite similar to Greeks.

As for religion... that's tricky. I think there were different strata of Greek religion. Figures like the Eumenides/Erynnyes (sp?) derived from an older source than e.g. Zeus or Apollo - and these too are different from figures like Dionysus. I do not think Greek religion was imported wholesale from Egypt.

Check out the book "Not Out of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz for refutations of "Black Athena." However, "Black Athena" (volume 1) is also a quite interesting read, about gross distortions of history carried out in the 19th century.

Prince Eugen
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 07:23 PM
First of all dear Siegfriend is this magazine an afrocentric or a nordicist one?
DNA tests from the tubes of Mycenean kings proove that modern Greeks have the same DNA at 85%!
About the so call phoenician and egyptian invasion it is myth and both nations were at war with ancient Greeks and the Greeks mostly won them!
The relationship between Egypt and Ancient Hellas was,maybe that a indoeuropean tribe relative with Greeks conquered Egypt and became the aristocracy and built this civilazation!
About the common D.N.A in the north coasts of Africa and the west of Turkey is obvious that the inhabitants there have Greek ancestry and for that reason they have some common D.N.A. with Greeks.Many of them have Europid fearures!
About the Turkish invasion ,now.Turks never become christians to marry a Greek woman because they lost priviliges so they forced ,Greek women,to change religion!If a woman was raped by Turks relatives forced her for abortion ,or many times killed her!
But in many circumastances Greek women prefered to suicide than to be rape by the Turks!
About the Byzantines years and the so call race mixing,emperors like Leon VI made racial laws and forbidden the whites of Empire to mixe with non whites especially Arabs(both muslim and christians Arabs).
In the modern Greece the populations are at mostly mediteranian ,dinaroic with lot of alpines and few 5-6% nordics!
For more help ask Dienekes i believe his knowledges are better than my!
And Siegfriend thank you very much!

Siegfried
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Actually it's been found that modern Greeks do have some DNA that seems to come from an early migration from northeast Africa. Ancient authors such as Herodotus also wrote about this kind of thing: colonies from Egypt and so on. Of course that is only an element in modern Greeks, and not their primary place of origin.

The author of the piece I wanted to respond to, suggested these invaders from northeast Africa brought Greece the foundation of its culture. Either my understanding of this period in time needs a drastic overhaul, or this is close to Afrocentrism and not historically accurate. Extra-European invaders may have influenced the (cultural) evolution of Greece, but surely they cannot be seen as the principle inspirers of the ancient Greek world? I was under the impression that most linguistic and archeological evidence supported the theory that Greek culture grew up locally, and that it was Indo-European, not Afro-Asiatic.



Anyone who's read some Classical literature also knows there were many blond heroes around, so obviously the people were mixed or at least not exclusively dark. But I do not think they were "Nordic" by any stretch of the imagination, at least not on average - although there well might have been pockets of somewhat Nordic-like communities.

Agreed.



As for Turkey: modern Turkey is genetically Anatolians (Byzantines) with a tiny bit (5% or less) of Central Asian genes, speaking a Turkish language and with Turkic cultural elements. So of course Turks are quite similar to Greeks.

The people inhabiting the western shores of Anatolia resemble the Greeks, but Turkey as a whole is racially quite different from Greece, though it is of course not black-and-white, but rather clinal. At least, that's how I interpret the genetic and anthropological data I've seen and my personal experiences in that area (though rather limited).

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15548

In any case, racial similarity between Greece and Turkey would not necessarily imply Afro-Asiatic foundations of Greek's culture.



As for religion... that's tricky. I think there were different strata of Greek religion. Figures like the Eumenides/Erynnyes (sp?) derived from an older source than e.g. Zeus or Apollo - and these too are different from figures like Dionysus. I do not think Greek religion was imported wholesale from Egypt.

Though I agree with you that the Greek pantheon is probably a synthesis of various religious currents, I fail to see strong links with Egypt - or at least something that would suggest Greek culture was heavily inspired by Egyptian culture. If you do, could you please expand on it? This issue is really getting to me :)



Check out the book "Not Out of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz for refutations of "Black Athena." However, "Black Athena" (volume 1) is also a quite interesting read, about gross distortions of history carried out in the 19th century.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)



First of all dear Siegfriend is this magazine an afrocentric or a nordicist one?

Neither, actually. It's a sort of right-wing liberal-conservative magazine. They are occassionally interesting. In any case, thanks for your input :)