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View Full Version : Shouldn't We Write in Runes, Rather Than Latin Alphabet?



alexross
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 04:04 PM
Sorry for not being on here in a long while. A good story about that; I was thinking of coming here; I went to my email, and I found a message from Skadi forum saying "we miss you".

I don't believe, as Germanic folk, that we are supposed to just carry on with our culture in the subset, and likeness, of other cultures. I believe we should separate what it is to be Germanic from what it MEANS to be Germanic. Runes are a good way to express this, because it is something unique to us, that hasn't been tampered with by mainstream culture; it is almost sacred to us(It IS sacred to a lot of pagans), because of the fact that it is not used, but that it is put above the current alphabet.
I'm not saying that we should use it in full-blown conversation; the way we communicate now, would absolutely devalue it. When people are surrounded by others of another culture, those people speak in their own language; we are surrounded by people who share similar culture and language, but we should use it amongst ourselves, here on Skadi forum, to retain its essence.

I have a language setting on my computer that allows me to switch between keyboard settings; I could use Icelandic settings, Norwegian settings, and I have a program that allows me to create a whole new setting scheme; I've done that, and have created a rune keyboard setting; of course, my keyboard still looks Latin, but keys would input runes. EX: ᚠᚢᚦᚩᚱᚳ

The Rune system might come easily to those of Scandinavian countries, where they used Elder Futhark; however, Anglo Saxons may have to do a census to decide whether we use Elder or Anglo futhorc, and whether we use the rune phonetic system, or we just replace latin letters with corresponding Runes(which I favor more, for simplicity).

Scario
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 04:32 PM
I believe we should use the runes for somethings, but definitely not everything. I plan on having a runestone done instead of a tombstone for when I die. The text will be in OHG but written in runic script. For everyday use, I think the Runes would be overused and lose their potency.

Hersir
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 04:47 PM
Sounds romantic, but I can't see it happening.

Žoreišar
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 04:52 PM
I'm not saying that we should use it in full-blown conversation; the way we communicate now, would absolutely devalue it. [...] but we should use it amongst ourselves, here on Skadi forum, to retain its essence.How so? Why is its essence dilluted by common, everyday usage? Wouldn't we instead honor the runes by giving them the place in our communities and everyday lives that it deserves?

Is it because you fear it would turn the runes into something mondane and less mystical? That is indeed a valid concern, but it is unfortunately a requisite of every living, vibrant culture that wants to preserve itself in the long term. By making all alternative forms of cultural expression redundant - and our own a fundamental necessity in order to fully function in society - we would stand a much better chance at keeping the runes alive. It is be shutting out all opposition that cultures survive, not by restraining itself to mystic, underground circles.


Sounds romantic, but I can't see it happening.In today's contemporary society - certainly not. But if we were to experience a surge in Nationalism and identitariansim in Germanic lands (which there unquestionably is going to have to be), then it might very well 'set the table' for such a transformation.

In Israel, for example, during its formative years, it was decided upon reviving the Hebrew language and form of writing and give it official status, and the entire nation learned and accustomed themselves to a completely different mother's tongue over the course of a generation. So although reverting back to the runes as our common form of writing might seem drastic, it is hardly an impossible task, compared to other succesfull changes in communication elsewhere.

Hersir
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 05:27 PM
In today's contemporary society - certainly not. But if we were to experience a surge in Nationalism and identitariansim in Germanic lands (which there unquestionably is going to have to be), then it might very well 'set the table' for such a transformation.

In Israel, for example, during its formative years, it was decided upon reviving the Hebrew language and form of writing and give it official status, and the entire nation learned and accustomed themselves to a completely different mother's tongue over the course of a generation. So although reverting back to the runes as our common form of writing might seem drastic, it is hardly an impossible task, compared to other succesfull changes in communication elsewhere.


Even with the national romantic surge and many language reforms in our country this was never an idea. Not even our own Ivar Aasen suggested it.

Hebrew language foremost had an revival as a spoken language, not as a written one.

Like with hebrew, it would make more sense to go back to using the runes as a writing system if we also reverted back to speaking old Norwegian.

Sindig_og_stoisk
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 05:49 PM
The Latin alphabet has some advantages that makes it better to use. First of all, it has a both capital and lower case letters, which is not only a requirement for certain grammatical rules in various Germanic languages, but also greatly increases reading speed.

Also, it makes communication with other countries and cultures easier. Do we really want to live in a world that has several hundreds kinds of alphabets and phonetic scripts?

And what about teaching this? I presume that our school children would still have to learn both the Latin alphabet and the futhark, which means that it will take twice as many resources to learn our pupils basic reading and writing skills.

What is so uniquely Germanic about runes? It is an alphabet derived from the Latin alphabet and used because it consists only of straight lines, making it easier to use for carving in wood and stone. We have paper now, and the Internet, so we do not need this practical consideration.

alexross
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 05:54 PM
Even with the national romantic surge and many language reforms in our country this was never an idea. Not even our own Ivar Aasen suggested it.

Hebrew language foremost had an revival as a spoken language, not as a written one.

Like with hebrew, it would make more sense to go back to using the runes as a writing system if we also reverted back to speaking old Norwegian.

I don't think that our situation is similar to the Jews' situation, because they spoke a corrupted version of a German dialect, Yiddish, and they used the Hebrew writing system; Yiddish wasn't meant to be written with Hebrew letters.
We speak English, Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, German, Dutch, etc; our language wasn't meant for the Latin alphabet, just as Yiddish wasn't meant for Hebrew alphabet. The Jews learned Hebrew and used Hebrew letters; in our case, we don't have to learn any old language, because we already have our language that is Germanic. There would be no point in learning Old English or Old Norse, because we already speak those languages, or at least newer versions.

I suppose we could alternate between certain words of romance origin and Germanic origin, with the corresponding script; ex:
ᛁ ᚹᛖᚾᛏ ᛏᚩ ᛏᚻᛖ store ᛏᚩ ᛒᚢᚣ ᛋᚩᛗᛖ ginger, ᛒᚢᛏ ᛏᚻᛖ store ᛞᛁᛞᚾ'ᛏ ᚻᚪᚡᛖ ᚪᚾᚣ.
That probably wouldn't work so well, but it's just an idea.


I believe we should use the runes for somethings, but definitely not everything. I plan on having a runestone done instead of a tombstone for when I die. The text will be in OHG but written in runic script. For everyday use, I think the Runes would be overused and lose their potency.

The main idea behind it, is that the movement will be connected to a more nationalistic Germanic culture; our culture comes, so do the runes, but then the culture goes, and then the runes go. It's a fail-safe, or a backup

It was easy for English to be butchered, because it was taught to non-English people; and now we have movements that seek to purify English of Latin/French/non-English words.

If Runes were only associated with a specific movement, then outsiders (nonGermanic people) will not be allowed to use runes, because it is something we will feel heavily strong about. As long as we keep runes part of a specific movement, we won't risk it being butchered like modern English.

Neophyte
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 06:33 PM
Runes are made for carving messages into pieces of wood. Modern Latin letters are made for the page and the screen; open a book and note how the serifs bind the word together into an image, you don't get that with runes. When we stop sending e-mails and go back to sticks with scratches, I'll consider runes.

Žoreišar
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 06:35 PM
And what about teaching this? I presume that our school children would still have to learn both the Latin alphabet and the futhark, which means that it will take twice as many resources to learn our pupils basic reading and writing skills.Learning the writing system of the Fužark in itself isn't really that time consuming. The Elder Fužark has only 24 signs, for example, and has very many similarities with the Roman alphabet. Young children tend to pick up that kind of stuff fairly easily.


What is so uniquely Germanic about runes? It is an alphabet derived from the Latin alphabet [...]By the same logic, one could say; what's so uniquely 'Germanic' about our languages? They are only languages derived from the same Proto-Indo-European stem as almost all other European languages. Uniqueness comes from distinct ways of expression, not necessarily seperate origins. The runes may have been derived from the Roman alphabet (although that is not completely certain), but they have been mended into something of our own.


Also, it makes communication with other countries and cultures easier. Do we really want to live in a world that has several hundreds kinds of alphabets and phonetic scripts?Yes. :) Identity and heritage should hardly be compromised to benefit practicality and convenience, in my opinion. Besides, in the quest for ethnic preservation, all cultural barriers between us and the outsiders works to assist our cause.


[...] and used because it consists only of straight lines, making it easier to use for carving in wood and stone. We have paper now, and the Internet, so we do not need this practical consideration.I have copied this from a post I made on the same topic on another forum:


I would love the Fužark to become a commonly used form of writing among Germanics, if not the primary form of writing. I find the runes to be very aesthetically inspiring and also much more "personal" to myself, as the Latin alphabet today is used as the primary writing system to the majority of the World's population. The runes are something that is - and would be - exclusively ours.

As for it's implementation in modern society, I see it far more achievable now, after the computerization, than for a hundred years ago, as the runes are intrinsically very impractical to write by hand, compared to the Latin alphabet, which evolved into different fonts during the Middle-Ages. Until then, all writing was written in capital letters, which share the same impractical qualities of the stocky runes, which takes ages upon ages to write long texts with. This was of course because the runes were made to be written in stone and wood, which makes vertical and diagonal lines the easiest to carve or chisel.

As the writing material eventually softened, so did the runes, as can be seen in the Medieval runes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_runes):

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/6/63/Medieval_runes.png

Although, there's also the "staveless" rune alphabet, called 'Hälsinge runes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staveless_runes)', which evolved from the Younger Fužark in the 10th century which had mostly lost the staves and therefore became much more practical and easy to write, also on paper:
http://holtermanndesign.com/images/Halsingerunor.png

In a place called Dalarna in Sweden, the people kept using a modified rune "alphabet" up until the beginning of the 20th century. These runes had evolved from the Medieval runes in the 16th century, and over the years just became more and more "Latinized", until it was completely taken over by the Latin alphabet.

A table of the evolution of the Dalecarlian runes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalecarlian_runes) through the ages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Dalrunor.png

If we were to take up writing in the Fužark once again, I imagine it would need some refurnishing to be practical for both writing and reading long texts, as well as a slight customization to the respective languages it is meant for. A mixture of the Medieval Fužark and the Staveless runes (primarily to function as todays lower case lettering), would be the ideal foundation to start off with.

WildHunter
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 06:40 PM
Runes are not merely an alphabetic system. Above and beyond their phonetic values the Runes contain the mysteries of the cosmos.
Whether you interpret the myths account of how the Runes came into existence as a literal account or a symbolic account, really doesn't matter.
What matters is that the Runes exist. They either came into existence from a ritual by Odin, or through the folk collective unconsciousness of our ancestors. By either of these accounts the Runes came into existence communicating much more than just an alphabetic system!
The Runes are alive not only from their cosmic creations, but alive with thousands of years of our ancestors infusing the Runes with their identities and ideals. Bottom line is the Runes are apart of our spiritual identity.
If this living part of our spiritual identity was used by the masses as another alphabetic system it would not only destroy the Runes, it would sever our connection to one of the last remaining tools available for us to directly communicate with our ancestors folk collective unconsciousness.
CAUTION TO ALL: Please spend some time speaking and listening to the Runes before you just use them for their phonetic values, or you may end up clouding their ability to communicate their spiritual value to you.
ALU!!!

alexross
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 06:45 PM
Runes are made for carving messages into pieces of wood. Modern Latin letters are made for the page and the screen. When we stop sending e-mails and go back to sticks with scratches, I'll consider runes.

Runes weren't MADE for carving messages into pieces of wood; reading and writing wasn't as popular, because paper wasn't as easy to come by.

The original Latin Script looked almost akin to Futhark, because it too was made with sticks and scratches.

Rome was invited to a lot of industry, because of the trade, and that expanded the usage of every aspect of their culture, from writing to art.

In Old English, "Rune" meant secret. I believe it was a "secret" because of that old story about the futhorc. But nevertheless, I think it shouldn't remain a secret any longer, at least for us who want to understand the rune. In a sense, I believe that it should remain a secret for outsiders, multiculturalist thieves and cultural appropriators.

For any official decree or something of great importance, the rune shall
be known, because it is a lost rite of passage for our people.


Runes are not merely an alphabetic system. Above and beyond their phonetic values the Runes contain the mysteries of the cosmos.
Whether you interpret the myths account of how the Runes came into existence as a literal account or a symbolic account, really doesn't matter.
What matters is that the Runes exist. They either came into existence from a ritual by Odin, or through the folk collective unconsciousness of our ancestors. By either of these accounts the Runes came into existence communicating much more than just an alphabetic system!
The Runes are alive not only from their cosmic creations, but alive with thousands of years of our ancestors infusing the Runes with their identities and ideals. Bottom line is the Runes are apart of our spiritual identity.
If this living part of our spiritual identity was used by the masses as another alphabetic system it would not only destroy the Runes, it would sever our connection to one of the last remaining tools available for us to directly communicate with our ancestors folk collective unconsciousness.
CAUTION TO ALL: Please spend some time speaking and listening to the Runes before you just use them for their phonetic values, or you may end up clouding their ability to communicate their spiritual value to you.
ALU!!!

Indeed, they are a very important spiritual tool. I could suggest that we use Latin script for communication, while use Runes for very important occasions or decrees, as I just said. I wrote this post before you did, but I have to wait for moderator to approve it.
Anyway, I don't exactly think we should restrict rune usage to religion, as many secular people want to use runes for writing; I know you probably won't agree, but it's for the sake of dividing us from outsiders; and in a way, I think it would help us to achieve a more valuable identity, rather than just a valuable product.


To Žoreišar :
I think I have somewhat perfected a liquid (non-scratchy) version of rune characters that could be used online/real life.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/mariojumpedinthetunnel.png/

Bearkinder
Sunday, January 22nd, 2012, 01:46 AM
I for one use runes to write my personal journals. If nothing else, it keeps peeping eyes from knowing what I wrote as most people have no idea what they are.

Do they have spiritual meanings as well? Yes, but Roman letters do also, just most people don't know it. Doesn't change that those meanings exist.

Not unlike the fact that a standard deck of cards is nothing but the minor arcanum of the tarot, usually with two fools (jokers) from the major arcanum, and yet most people have no idea.

ambertwilight
Thursday, March 8th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Hi there
I am a P.A. (personel assistant) and all the phone messages I recieve I write down in runes (as most of them are private messages) so no one else can understand them, unless they can read runes that is, but even then they would have to access the messages. My boss thinks this is great as it adds an extra level of security and most people in my job use shorthand anyway.

Wulfaz
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Well, the hebrew language and alphabet in nowadays Israel is a quite good example for a renaissance of cultural heritage. Well, the daily use of the Runes would be a little bit hard thing nowadays, however we could decorate own enviroment with them. F.e. in Hungary the hungarians have an own ancient alphabet what they used on pieces of wood too. Nowadays they use to erect city sign with that alphabet and moreover they use that on/over doors.

I think we should copy their habit to revive the Runes.


http://m.cdn.blog.hu/na/napibudapest/image/bfalutabla.jpg

http://www.rakosmente.hu/Libraries/Az_aradi_tizenh%C3%A1rmakra_eml%C3%A9kez tek/02_A_t%C3%A1bla.sflb.ashx

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x4QEBR5U_zc/TSXrEg7un2I/AAAAAAAAAMY/4K8hluIv-M0/s1600/DSCF9870.JPG

Hrafn Odinnsson
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 12:40 AM
I voted "nay" meaning that we shouldnt write in Runes on a daily basis on anything and everything; just imagine some wiggers tagging in Runes! We should keep it sacred to ourselves and only use them in rituals and on our own property, nothing public where there are Skraelings out and about ready to abuse and deface.

Žoreišar
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 06:13 AM
I voted "nay" meaning that we shouldnt write in Runes on a daily basis on anything and everything; just imagine some wiggers tagging in Runes!Bu the same logic, shouldn't we stop propegating anything Germanic? After all, the negroes might get a hold of it, too...

Ingvaeonic
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 07:19 AM
Hmmm, should we write in runes instead of the Latin alphabet?

Hmmm, that is a hard one. I am illiterate in runes so I really can't comment, or vote--but then being totally ignorant of the subject has never stopped me before.:) So I would think that if runic script can do everything Latin alphabetic script can do, why not? As long as the more difficult, complicated concepts could be written and expressed in runes as well as the simple, more basic concepts, then it could be done. It would present great practical problems in educating the general public in reading and writing runes--so many of the poor fools are not even literate in the Latin alphabet.

Juthunge
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 09:21 AM
In my opinion, we shouldn't "return" to use runes in everday life. I don't think the usage of runes as an alphabet for the common people was widespread among our ancestors, especially considering that only a small minority was literate at all.
The runic alphabets were mostly used to carve short messages pertaining to religion and rituals in wood or stone.
Some sounds in many modern Germanic languages cannot even be expressed in runes, such as the ä, ö, ü umlauts in my own mother tongue.

The Latin alphabet is far more simple and easier to handle on paper, also because it enables you to write most letters continuously, whereas many runes will require you to break the flow of your writing.

You can compare it to the introduction of the, nominally French, Metric system in Germany. One could argue that this system is utterly foreign and that its introduction was wrong, especially considering the French–German hereditary enmity.
However, I wouldn't want to return to the system of feet and cubits because it's simply impractical, especially in regards to the complex processes in modern engineering, which require a system that's easy to handle and logical.

Hrafn Odinnsson
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Bu the same logic, shouldn't we stop propegating anything Germanic? After all, the negroes might get a hold of it, too...

You forgot to quote the rest of my statement thus giving my reason why I stated what I meant:


We should keep it sacred to ourselves and only use them in rituals and on our own property, nothing public where there are Skraelings out and about ready to abuse and deface.

Germaid
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 05:10 PM
I for one use runes to write my personal journals. If nothing else, it keeps peeping eyes from knowing what I wrote as most people have no idea what they are.

That's what I do as well, a good way to hide personal notes from nosy people.


Some sounds in many modern Germanic languages cannot even be expressed in runes, such as the ä, ö, ü umlauts in my own mother tongue.

The Latin alphabet is far more simple and easier to handle on paper, also because it enables you to write most letters continuously, whereas many runes will require you to break the flow of your writing.

This bothers me too to be honest. Concerning Umlaute, I just write ae instead of ä, etc. The Latin alphabet is definitely more convenient for every-day writing.

Wulfaz
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 05:40 PM
This bothers me too to be honest. Concerning Umlaute, I just write ae instead of ä, etc. The Latin Alphabet is definitely more convenient for every-day writing.


This. The Ä came from AE (Ä<Aͤ<AE), like as the swedish Å<AA. Just the small e became to double point on the top of the A. Furthermore the original latin alphabet haven't got many nowadays used letter without diacritical mark like as G, J, U, W, X, Y, Z. These evolved and some ones borrowed from the greek alphabet under the last two thousend years.

The useage of the Runes on paper would be ineffective most likely, however it would be quite good as city sign, street sign or other decoration on doors, cars, bags, t-shirts. I think these just depend on money and decision.

velvet
Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, 07:14 PM
In my opinion, we shouldn't "return" to use runes in everday life. I don't think the usage of runes as an alphabet for the common people was widespread among our ancestors, especially considering that only a small minority was literate at all.

"Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

There's no point in doing things the way people did them - for whatever reason - 1000+ years ago just for the sake of doing it like them. It can have its merit in some things, in others it doesnt.

Not every Roman could write either, for some reason this does not lead you to the same condemnation of the Roman script though, while this is an argument against Runes?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Wulfila_bibel.jpg/477px-Wulfila_bibel.jpg
Gothic Runes


Some sounds in many modern Germanic languages cannot even be expressed in runes, such as the ä, ö, ü umlauts in my own mother tongue.

Which the Latin alphabet didnt possess either, no k, no j, no distinct u or w either, and from ę, å, ų, or the Icelandic Runic letters š, Ž not even to start (the Umlauts, at least in northern Germany, used to be ę and œ btw). So to make it say what and how we say it we've altered it already. It wasnt adopted as it was, I dont see why we shouldnt be able to expand the Runic alphabet to fit our needs too then, but instead insist of using it the way it was. The original shouldnt be forgotten of course, because of its cosmological/mythic contents, but I dont see a problem to alter/expand it for writing purposes. :shrug

Wulfaz
Monday, June 4th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Not every Roman could write either, for some reason this does not lead you to the same condemnation of the Roman script though, while this is an argument against Runes?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Wulfila_bibel.jpg/477px-Wulfila_bibel.jpg
Gothic Runes

These are not Runes, but a version of the greek alphabet to describe the Gothic language by Wulfilas, as probably the pronunciation of this Gothic alphabet was similar to the Byzantine Greek.

Feyn
Tuesday, June 5th, 2012, 07:51 AM
DEFINITELY not ! The runes are way more then just letters. Using them for ever day writing would be almost a sacrilege, don“t you think ? The runes are something better reserved for special occasions. You don“t serve your best vine every day,or it looses being something special ! To use them simply to write say a grocery list feels just wrong !!! ODIN sacrificed himself and hung from the tree to get this knowledge for us and him. If we used them every day it would also be an insult to ODIN , don“t you think ? It would look like we do not show the runes the proper respect which they so rightfully deserve ! The latin alphabet is just that, an alphabet. The runes are so much more, and they are definitely not something to play around with !!!

Neophyte
Tuesday, June 5th, 2012, 03:00 PM
Bah, the runes do not have upper and lower case, nor—most important of all—do they have serifs. Reading a book in runes would be torture on the eyes, and it would go a lot slower than if it were in Roman letters with serifs and all.

Wulfaz
Tuesday, June 5th, 2012, 06:30 PM
Using them for ever day writing would be almost a sacrilege, don“t you think ?

Interrestingly, the Dalecarlian Runes were used in the early Modern Era in Dalarna.



When Carl Linnaeus visited Älvdalen in Dalarna in 1734, he made the following note in his diary:

The peasants in the community here, apart from using rune staves, still today write their names and ownership marks with runic letters, as is seen on walls, corner stones, bowls, etc. Which one does not know to be still continued anywhere else in Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalecarlian_runes

Elessar
Tuesday, June 5th, 2012, 06:57 PM
ODIN sacrificed himself and hung from the tree to get this knowledge for us and him
If you literally believe in such superstition.

The latin alphabet is just that, an alphabet. The runes are so much more, and they are definitely not something to play around with !!!
The only thing that separates the two is the divorce of time and space that lead to their respective cultural milieus. All written script in the West derives from Phoenician Alphabet, the watershed of Greco-Etruscan-Latin variation wich Runic script would take off from. The Runic script is just that, an Alpha Beta chronology of symbols used to convey abstract thought. Before runic inscription, proto-Germanic peoples are in all likelihood oral transmitters.
There's nothing inherently mystical or sacred to them aside from the value pagans attach to them. Writing Runes on paper isn't exactly the most convenient form of writing, more suited for hard surfaces like rocks and wood, Greco-Latin is a more aesthetically pleasing medium to work with, especially with the leeway of certain phonetical pronunciations, and like Neophyte said, the innovation of upper and lower cases.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 29th, 2018, 04:16 AM
We should have all Germanic tongues written in Runic. There's nothing esoteric about it, nor anything superior about Latin. It is true that they both derive from Italic on a general basis, whilst both Italic and Hellenic are derived from Phoenician, no different than Hebrew. Everyone ought to feel comfortable in his own skin. Whoever makes light of it, ought to speak a foreign language instead of his own, to condemn both orthography and speech to oblivion. That sounds like Germanic preservation to me--not...