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KveldulfR
Saturday, January 14th, 2012, 02:31 PM
Does anyone think there is any intrinsic power in the Celtic Ogham as there is, similarly, in the Runes?

Kauz R. Waldher
Saturday, January 14th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Does anyone think there is any intrinsic power in the Celtic Ogham as there is, similarly, in the Runes?

Absolutely. Druidry, to me, is as intriguing as any form f Paganism. They too were murdered by christians (disgruntled). But, they were obviously very powerful and respected. Remember, Irminsul was a tree it is believed.

Unity Mitford
Saturday, January 14th, 2012, 06:36 PM
certainly, but the runes feel more natural to me.

Thorwald
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 02:54 PM
Does anyone think there is any intrinsic power in the Celtic Ogham as there is, similarly, in the Runes?

Probably, but Ogham is for Celts. Runes are for Heathens.

Kauz R. Waldher
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Probably, but Ogham is for Celts. Runes are for Heathens.

Thorwald, I left a comment I now deleted because it came off as rude. I'm sorry. You didn't deserve that. Here check this out ... please tell me what you guys think.

http://druidry.org/pdfs/hindus_and_druids.pdf

"Old Irish is closer to the language from which all Indo-European
languages developed and can offer a far better comparison with Vedic Sanskrit than can Classical Greek or Latin"

Anlef
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 05:42 PM
They too were murdered by christians (disgruntled).

Can you back this claim up or did you just pull it from your arse?

Bearkinder
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 06:54 PM
The Ogham is to Celts what the runes are to Germanics.

The Druids were murdered by Romans. Rome had adopted Christianity as the national religion, but it was really more of a politic expedient than any real belief. It was really just another Not Roman culture the Romans destroyed.

As for the origins of the Celts, they come from the same stock as Germanics, and I think there's very good evidence that the religion of the Druidic period which most know as the Celtic mysticism involving Cerrunos, Brigidh, The Morrigan, Neit, is an offshoot of the Germanic traditions; and it is likely that the Tuatha De Danaan who's religion it was, were likely Norse settlers, displacing the inhabitants, and the offshoot of Germanic tradition is what became the Celtic society we know of.

Kauz R. Waldher
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Can you back this claim up or did you just pull it from your arse?

The question is, can you disprove it? The Druids were either slayed or converted by force (if they wanted to live). You christians always try to downplay the imperialist barbaric nature of your sand dune religion. It is a FACT that our pagan ancestors were murdered, starved and looked down upon by christian imperialists. You're just too damn proud to admit that you may be fighting for the wrong side. Humility "should" be engrained in your conscious (if you're a "true" christian) so why don't you use it and reflect on truth? Why do you think we're called "pagan"? It was an insult! How about "barbarians"? Another insult! These terms were coined by the forefathers of European christianity. The truth is, the christians were the barbarians. The doctrine and principals corrupted us beyond recognition. Do you know why there is NO REAL PROOF of our spiritual practices? Because the christians destroyed everything! You think that's good? You like that? You don't even know how much resentment I hold in my heart towards semetic religions. But we're still here, we're still alive and we're coming back! "Barbarian" Tribalism will be resurrected! But this time, history will not repeat itself.


The Ogham is to Celts what the runes are to Germanics.

The Druids were murdered by Romans. Rome had adopted Christianity as the national religion, but it was really more of a politic expedient than any real belief. It was really just another Not Roman culture the Romans destroyed.

As for the origins of the Celts, they come from the same stock as Germanics, and I think there's very good evidence that the religion of the Druidic period which most know as the Celtic mysticism involving Cerrunos, Brigidh, The Morrigan, Neit, is an offshoot of the Germanic traditions; and it is likely that the Tuatha De Danaan who's religion it was, were likely Norse settlers, displacing the inhabitants, and the offshoot of Germanic tradition is what became the Celtic society we know of.


Beautiful post!! I couldn't have said it better myself:)

Thorwald
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Thorwald, I left a comment I now deleted because it came off as rude. I'm sorry. You didn't deserve that. Here check this out ... please tell me what you guys think.

Whatever it was I didn't get to read it before it was deleted.

Anyway, no harm, no foul. I didn't mean to sound so completely dismissive.

However, I do think we're talking about different cultural magical systems. I have some Celtic blood, but as that culture fails to captivate my interests, I choose to concentrate solely on the Germanic side of things.

Kauz R. Waldher
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Whatever it was I didn't get to read it before it was deleted.

Anyway, no harm, no foul. I didn't mean to sound so completely dismissive.

However, I do think we're talking about different cultural magical systems. I have some Celtic blood, but as that culture fails to captivate my interests, I choose to concentrate solely on the Germanic side of things.

Yep, I agree. I focus on Heathenry, the Celt paganism was based on femininity (moon), and the Germanic masculine (solar). I tried my best though to study Druidry, but Druidry as a "movement" right now is purely disgusting. I joined a few of the main forums and communities awhile back and it was nothing but pure neo-pagan hippie crap. They of course shunned me for being a "Racist Heathen". I researched the druids deeply and you think we don't know much about Germanic Heathenry? They REALLY know nothing of Druidry. I mean basically nothing. I would still love to learn as much as I can if possible one day. The Druids were extremely powerful. Unparalleled wisdom.

Thorwald, what I wrote wasn't intended to be "rude", but I could see how it could deciphered that way though. So to avoid that I just deleted it.

Anlef
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 10:50 PM
The question is, can you disprove it? The Druids were either slayed or converted by force (if they wanted to live). You christians always try to downplay the imperialist barbaric nature of your sand dune religion. It is a FACT that our pagan ancestors were murdered, starved and looked down upon by christian imperialists. You're just too damn proud to admit that you may be fighting for the wrong side. Humility "should" be engrained in your conscious (if you're a "true" christian) so why don't you use it and reflect on truth? Why do you think we're called "pagan"? It was an insult! How about "barbarians"? Another insult! These terms were coined by the forefathers of European christianity. The truth is, the christians were the barbarians. The doctrine and principals corrupted us beyond recognition. Do you know why there is NO REAL PROOF of our spiritual practices? Because the christians destroyed everything! You think that's good? You like that? You don't even know how much resentment I hold in my heart towards semetic religions. But we're still here, we're still alive and we're coming back! "Barbarian" Tribalism will be resurrected! But this time, history will not repeat itself.

This must be the best post in Skadi's history so far. I salute you, Kauz!

Can I disprove it? :thumbsup

Anyway, the druids were wiped out by a fully heathen Roman Empire that was reportedly disgusted by the propensity of the druids for human sacrifice. The Romans deemed such practices barbarous. The heathen Romans then proceeded to 'murder, starve and look down upon' Christians in their Empire.

The term barbarian originated in the world of the heathen Greeks. It's from Classical Greek bárbaros, which originally meant 'mumbler, person who doesn't speak Greek' and came to denote 'barbarian, savage' in the sense that we know it during and after the Greco-Persian Wars, which took place several centuries before Christ. As you know, Roman heathens and Greek heathens, and hell, most heathens probably, looked down on most nations other than their own.

The term pagan was not an insult per se, but a descriptive term. Pagans were rural folks who kept to old beliefs, pure and simple.

Tell me, what else have you been making up?

Kauz R. Waldher
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 11:24 PM
I'm sure you know a whole lot more than the philosophers and historians who wrote books on the topic. Wasn't it Caesar that accused the Druids of human sacrifice? seems like he needed a reason to kill them off huh? The Romans were notorious for recording self-serving propaganda, not history. The records indicate that Druids did sacrifice a few humans. But of course not nearly as many as the millions who were tortured, pressed, or burned to death by the Roman Catholic Church for being heretics, werewolves, witches, doctors, or scientists. All of the accounts indicate that the Druids were amateures at it compared to any of the Catholic or Protestant totals of sacrificed humans. Those Roman Catholics were the all time world champions at human sacrifice. Maybe they could be again?


"Certainly the word for pagan or heathen, paganus, appears in some ancient Latin writers such as Livy without an especially negative tone. But this does not alter the fact that with the arrival of the new faith, the word paganus became a decidedly disparaging expression, as used in early Christian apologetics. It derives from pagus, meaning a small town or village, so that paganus refers to the peasant way of thinking: an uncultured, primitive, and superstitious way. In order to promote and glorify the new faith, the apologists had the bad habit of elevating themselves through the denigration of other faiths. There was often a conscious and often systematic disparagement and misrepresentation of almost all the earlier traditions, doctrines, and religions, which were grouped under the contemptuous blanket-term of paganism or heathendom. To this end, the apologists obviously made a premeditated effort to highlight those aspects of the pre-Christian religions and traditions."

"The heathen Romans then proceeded to 'murder, starve and look down upon' Christians in their Empire."

Not enough apparently.

Bearkinder
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 11:32 PM
Yep, I agree. I focus on Heathenry, the Celt paganism was based on femininity (moon), and the Germanic masculine (solar). I tried my best though to study Druidry, but Druidry as a "movement" right now is purely disgusting. I joined a few of the main forums and communities awhile back and it was nothing but pure neo-pagan hippie crap.

That's really not true. Celtic heathenry is as much male-oriented as Germanic heathenry is. Problem is, the lesbo-matriarchal wiccan movement latched onto Celtic heathenry with a vengeance and essentially ignores the male aspect, except to acknowledge "the god".

As I've posted elsewhere, the Druids were MEN. The warriors and leaders were MEN. Only if a king died with no brothers, sons or male cousins would the queen rule until she had male offspring. Yet wiccans have this belief that there were as many ruling women, if not more, than men. It's simply not true. If you look at Celtic mythology, even the goddesses chose men as their champions, not women.

Did Celtic women fight? Yes. So did Germanic women. When the village is attacked, everyone -- man, woman and children big enough to lift a tool or weapon -- fights. Did Celtic women go out on the warpath? Very rarely. Yes, it did happen, but it was not common. Even Boudicea's army was male. The women and children followed behind to watch the battle from afar and tend the wounded afterward.

Really you have to ignore the modern wiccan view of Celtic Heathenery to get a real picture. I had to go through a lot of books through ILLs (I did most of my research pre-internet), andreally, you need to look at actual history books and the source mythologies themselves as just about everything else is tainted by wicca.

But you'll find that Celtic Aelfs are not cute, fuzzy little beings out for a night on the town, nor some sickeningly skinny effeminate emo type that belongs in a Twilight movie. They are fearsome, powerful spirits. Some are elemental spirits, some are much like house wights, etc.

Again, I think they are a divergent offshoot of the Norse settlers they stemmed from. Wiccans talk of The Morrigan as some grandmotherly figure that likes to knit and hold you on her knee telling stories. In the Mythology, she is a fearsome force, at times barring her army's retreat: it's win or die, as she flies above the battlefields as a hooded crow shrieking (which is why the Celt shrieked as they went into battle). Like Freyja, she claimed the best warriors for herself (the sould was seen to live in the head, so the Celts would cut the heads off their enemies and retreat from the battlefield for a day, leaving "Machas acorns" for The Morrigan to claim the ones she wanted -- Macha being an aspect of The Morrigan). Like Frigga, she knew the path of one's life, and if she ever revealed it to a man, it was shortly before his death.

Neit bears a strong resemblance to Thor in his physical attributes and personality.

I'm not saying they are the same, but anyone comfortable with real Germanic Heathenry should be comfortable with real Celtic Heathenry, though not so much the wiccan version.

Bearkinder
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 11:35 PM
Re: druidic human sacrifice.

Druids did sacrifice humans, but only in dire circumstances when all else had failed, and they were folks who volunteered for sacrifice. It was extremely rare, and not by force. They were not Irish Aztecs like the Romans made them out to be.

Yes, the Romans needed a good bit of propaganda to justify wiping them out, and the massive exaggeration of this practice was what they used.

Anlef
Sunday, January 15th, 2012, 11:50 PM
But of course not nearly as many as the millions who were tortured, pressed, or burned to death by the Roman Catholic Church for being heretics, werewolves, witches, doctors, or scientists.

Millions? What? Proof?

Kauz R. Waldher
Monday, January 16th, 2012, 12:21 AM
Millions? What? Proof?

Trust me pal. I've been edited alot more times than you ever will be. I'm two warnings from being banned.
Are you really that blinded? Or is it denial? Here we go again with the pissing contest. You're a typical christian, like your "historians" who bend and flex information to make themselves look good or heroic. As you, I and everyone else knows ... the winners of the wars write the history books. In the first century the Romans launched many attacks against the Druids that greatly dwindled their population. Christianity dealt them their final defeat. I believe something similar happened in Ireland as well?



Oh, I was talking about Neo-Druidry. As a whole, there is no real "folkish" way in Druidry in these days. If there is, please let me know. I have searched far and wide. Some of the biggest "authorities" and/or influential, well-known or historically accurate "Druids" (currently) have started communities. They are liberal in the sense that they, like christianity, think that ANYONE can be a Druid. Including christians, jews, blacks, mexicans etc. Find me a "folkish druid" and i'll be amazed.

Bearkinder
Monday, January 16th, 2012, 12:42 AM
There's probably some folkish Druids, but I'd not be surprised that they are solitary. Problem is between the wiccan perversion of it, and the stigma of "racism", most in fact do try to be inclusive of anyone, often confusing druidry with rank shamanism.

Most likely if there are folkish druids, they are in Ireland/Isle of Man, etc and unofficial, as being folkish is equated with racism and is illegal (unless you're a non-white racist).

To be honest, I've never looked for practicing druids because, as I said, Celtic Heathenry is overrun with wiccans and wiccan thought, and is hopelessly liberal. I've been more interested in Germanic Heathenry being practised, as it really sings to me, and Germanics tend to be conservative and not really care much what others think or like, so IMO are more likely to follow the tradition than make it into something it never was.

Anlef
Monday, January 16th, 2012, 12:43 AM
Trust me pal. I've been edited alot more times than you ever will be. I'm two warnings from being banned.
Are you really that blinded? Or is it denial? Here we go again with the pissing contest. You're a typical christian, like your "historians" who bend and flex information to make themselves look good or heroic. As you, I and everyone else knows ... the winners of the wars write the history books. In the first century the Romans launched many attacks against the Druids that greatly dwindled their population. Christianity dealt them their final defeat. I believe something similar happened in Ireland as well?

Okay, so you have no proof. Tell me, what happened in Ireland?



As for ogam (Modern Irish ogham): the oldest inscriptions in this script date from the 5th century AD. It wasn't developed until long after the Irish had come into contact with written and spoken Latin via christian Britain. From Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia:

"Internal evidence suggests the script is older than the earliest surviving examples of it, but the date and circumstances of its genesis remain obscure. There are several possible scenarios; Irish speakers might have been in contact with Latin in or before the 4th to 5th centuries ad, possibly through the Irish colonies in Wales (Cymru) or through late Imperial Roman or early Christian trade in south-west Ireland."

And as for the "intrinsic power" of ogam, from the same book:

"The popular perception of ogam as being secret, magical, or ‘druidic’ in origin is not supported by the evidence. There is nothing intrinsically cryptic or occult about ogam and it must be emphasized that its use in early Ireland was first and foremost as a practical day-to-day script."

Kauz R. Waldher
Monday, January 16th, 2012, 12:58 AM
"To be honest, I've never looked for practicing druids because, as I said, Celtic Heathenry is overrun with wiccans and wiccan thought, and is hopelessly liberal. I've been more interested in Germanic Heathenry being practised, as it really sings to me, and Germanics tend to be conservative and not really care much what others think or like, so IMO are more likely to follow the tradition than make it into something it never was."

I'm right there with you on this matter. Though right now, i'm a "lone wolf" Heathen myself. I really hope that changes soon.
I saw some videos on the Odinic Rite on youtube (yule blot) that seemed pretty intense. So my opinion of them has changed a great deal.

Thorwald
Monday, January 16th, 2012, 02:01 AM
Most likely if there are folkish druids, they are in Ireland/Isle of Man, etc and unofficial, as being folkish is equated with racism and is illegal (unless you're a non-white racist).


I'm not sure about "Druids" but I ran into a small band of Folkish Celts a few years ago on another Heathen forum. They were based out of the American South (the leader was a Texan and in the US Army, if I recall correctly).

From what I remember of them they were very low key, kept to themselves, only popped up on the internet once in a while. The reason for that was, as you say, most Celts are in the lesbo-feminist school of thought, and this group simply didn't want to deal with them.

If they are still around and active, they must have retreated completely off the 'net.

I don't think Celtic paganism or Druidry has much of a chance of sliding out of New Age tomfoolery. I think Celtic pagans with any Germanic blood who have any folkish leanings at all should just join our ranks and follow our ways. It wouldn't be entirely unprecedented. If I recall correctly, some of the Germanic supertribes of the late Roman Empire may have included a few Celtic stragglers.

ambertwilight
Saturday, March 3rd, 2012, 11:28 AM
I use both runes and oghams.

KveldulfR
Sunday, March 4th, 2012, 12:43 AM
I use both runes and oghams.

I have some interest in Ogham as well. Do you see it as just a language or more, like the Runes?

Bearkinder
Sunday, March 4th, 2012, 02:39 AM
I'm not the one you addressed it to, but Ogham letters (or runes of you want to call them that) were used both to write, and have been found in singles on object, implying their use as symbols of a property to be imbued to the object, to mark it as belonging to a particular god/goddess, etc. They were also used in divination.

So, historically, they are like runes and used for both.

ambertwilight
Monday, March 5th, 2012, 10:28 AM
I use the oghams for divination only. But use the runes for both divination and writing.