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Siegfried
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 07:29 PM
There has been quite some discussion on this forum and others about 'Mediterraneans' and their 'whiteness'. Physical anthropologists like Coon often used the word 'Mediterranean' in a very broad way, often including many North Africans, Middle Easterners, and sometimes even Indians, Irano-Afghans, etc. If Coon's data is to be believed, there is indeed a band of relative morphological homogeneity that stretches from Iberia across North Africa into Asia.

Yet several genetic studies (see, for example, the images below) show that Europeans tend to cluster together and that there is a significant genetic gap between Southern Europe and North Africa. This is remarkable, given the similarities physical anthropologists saw. So how is this to be explained? Can we speak of a Europid proper race (i.e. a typically European branch of the wider Caucasoid race) - and how does the idea of an intercontinental Mediterranean race fit in?

I'd like to use this thread to discuss the validity of the Europid concept and how the 'Mediterranean' Europeans fit in, especially since there has been a conflict of opinion on this between grand members Loki and Eriksson. While Eriksson defended the idea of a Nordish group within a Europid proper group within a wider Caucasoid race, Loki only acknowledged the validity of the Nordish and Caucasoid concepts. I think this is an important issue that should be tackled.

To avoid confusion, please do not equate Europid with Caucasoid in this thread. Europid will be defined as the typically European branch of the Caucasoid race, including the following subracial types; Nordid, East Baltid, Alpinid, Dinarid & Mediterranean (in Baker's terminology) or, in Gunther's terms, Nordisch, Fälisch, Ostisch, Westisch, Ostbaltisch, Dinarisch.

Personally, I think there actually was a Mediterranean root race from which the Southern Europeans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, etc descend. However, these groups drifted apart because of cultural and geographical barriers. Moreover, the North African groups absorbed local blood (and a little Negroid, especially recently), while the Southern Europeans primarily exchanged genes with the more northern Europeans. Madison Grant even called Southern Europeans 'Nordicized Mediterraneans'.

As Mediterranean traits tend to be dominant while Central and (especially) Northern European traits are more recessive, a certain degree of phenotypical resemblence between the Mediterranean types was maintained (though no schooled man would confuse the average Iberian with an Arab).

This might be an explanation, but I'm not sure how many reliable evidence there is for this theory. Just for the record; I do ascribe to the Europid concept, even though the borders are obviously very blurred (but so are the Nordish, and Caucasoid borders) and the races that belong to the Europid group have a diverse evolutionary past.


http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15548

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15696


Discuss :)

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 10:24 PM
Yet several genetic studies (see, for example, the images below) show that Europeans tend to cluster together and that there is a significant genetic gap between Southern Europe and North Africa. This is remarkable, given the similarities physical anthropologists saw.

It's less remarkable, when you think of Europeans as being produced from different lineages hybridising, in a European centre. This, explains the physical variety of Europeans. Some Caucasoid regions, like the Maghreb, are isolated from the main zones of hybridisation, and they appear as the more distant lineages.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 11:37 PM
Some Caucasoid regions, like the Maghreb, are isolated from the main zones of hybridisation, and they appear as the more distant lineages.

Where is the Maghreb? Central Europe?

Perhaps understanding the Major Migrations to Europe and in Europe is the key to defining and distinguising between different "Europid" Groups. And then there is of Course Phenotype.

Siegfried
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 11:44 PM
Where is the Maghreb? Central Europe?


Northwest Africa, actually. :)

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Northwest Africa, actually.


Of course it's Vice Versa. That's what I wanted to say(my brain is fried).

TY

aftermundo
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:20 PM
Statements like ``southern-europeans are white`` or ``southern-europeans are not white`` are bogus.

Most Southern-Europeans ive seen are white but ive also met Southern-Europeans who are not white.

However its safe to say that the majority of South-Europeans are white.

Scoob
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Italian Americans in the USA are some of the few ethnic groups to maintain their European culture here, instead of fading to a nondescript, consumer-clone "Whiteness." For this they are important and deserve recognition.

Northern Paladin
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Italian Americans in the USA are some of the few ethnic groups to maintain their European culture here, instead of fading to a nondescript, consumer-clone "Whiteness." For this they are important and deserve recognition.


It's easier for them. They have a large enough community and a distinctness about them. However there are many Italians who have been assilimated into the "General" white culture.

I believe Italians have already gotten their recognition. Their Food and Culture has become part of America.

goidelicwarrior
Friday, September 3rd, 2004, 09:29 AM
Where is the Maghreb? Central Europe?

Perhaps understanding the Major Migrations to Europe and in Europe is the key to defining and distinguising between different "Europid" Groups. And then there is of Course Phenotype. maghreb is Northern Africa.. :D

herr georg
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 11:21 AM
Funny how quickly people are to exclude north africans and middle easterners as white.
The genetic difference between south europeans and middle easterners is very little and insignificant.
Can I ask why there is any reason to include greeks and south italians as white and not,
saddam hussein for instance? care to point out what isn't white about him ? keeping in mind that the vast majority of arabs look like that. White skinned mediterraneans.

Waarnemer
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Funny how quickly people are to exclude north africans and middle easterners as white.
The genetic difference between south europeans and middle easterners is very little and insignificant.
Can I ask why there is any reason to include greeks and south italians as white and not,
saddam hussein for instance? care to point out what isn't white about him ? keeping in mind that the vast majority of arabs look like that. White skinned mediterraneans.
Saddam hussein? LOL :P What are you talking about?

Glenlivet
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.

Even west and east-Mediterranid is something which is made up. Some in Turkey look Atlanto-Med and there are people in western Europe who have nasal prominence of what would except from an eastern group, but these are called Dinaroid, even if they are long-headed. It is all nonsense.

I agree with herr georg. Furthermore, there are Berbers in NW Africa that come close to the so-called unreduced UP survivors of Ireland.

Mediterranid is as valid as Nordid. There are varieties within each group. I think it is better to talk about a belt of Southern Europids and Northern Europids. The British Isles are to some extent inbetween. The northern group should be from Slovenia and Montenegro and northwards.

Loki
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 08:55 PM
Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.


I think you need to travel more, with all due respect.

Glenlivet
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 09:54 PM
We all need to. You are no different. That there is a southern and northern belt is not based on anecdotes.

The only think I would agree with is the paternal genetic lineage from northern Iberia up to western Scandinavia, and in this respect Iberia differs from Greece. One can also see it in the physical types. Italy stand between.


I think you need to travel more, with all due respect.

Huzar
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.


Absolutely. I agree completely on this statement:thumbup . It's logic and credible. There are really few people capable to do it with a reasonable level of precision.

Personally i have been classified by a really big number of observers until now (in different moments with different clothes, haircut, and general "scenarios") : you would be amazed by the variety of comments i received.......i've been collocated in a geographical range from France to Ukraina in a West-East continuum and from Bavaria/Austria to Bosnia/Herzegovina in a North-South one :lol
(btw, only Agrippa, Frans josef, Gareth [and Glenlivet :)] guessed the right nation and the exact zone.....)






I think you need to travel more, with all due respect


I think you haven't travelled enough (and not Glenlivet). With all due respect.

Siegfried
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 06:58 AM
Even west and east-Mediterranid is something which is made up. Some in Turkey look Atlanto-Med and there are people in western Europe who have nasal prominence of what would except from an eastern group, but these are called Dinaroid, even if they are long-headed. It is all nonsense.


The only think I would agree with is the paternal genetic lineage from northern Iberia up to western Scandinavia, and in this respect Iberia differs from Greece. One can also see it in the physical types. Italy stand between.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? :)

Loki
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 07:11 AM
Absolutely. I agree completely on this statement:thumbup . It's logic and credible. There are really few people capable to do it with a reasonable level of precision.

You would say so, because you're Italian and would ideally like to be associated with Northerns. :)


I think you haven't travelled enough (and not Glenlivet). With all due respect.

Of course I haven't travelled enough yet. I travel abroad every year to a new country and will continue to do so.

Yet by this time, I could pick out a naked Italian from a Dane without much head-scratching - I promise you. ;)

Huzar
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 07:48 AM
You would say so, because you're Italian and would ideally like to be associated with Northerns. :)


I'm North-Italian (Some say "Padanian";) too), that is a bit different........... If you had really travelled in your life you surely would know.

Anyway, my dear Loki, you associate too strictly a nationality with a phenotype. What you mean exactly for "typically italian", Loki ? Let me guess : a distinctly short-gracile, dark/swarthy, hooknosed and hairy person ? Well if it's so, i'm NOT italian, then :P . At least not your stereotypical image of the italian , which coincides perfectly with southern Italy, but not with the area where i live (The ALPS, more precisely, and not the mediterranean sea, if you have some basilar notions of geography.For your information the Alps, are a geographical zone in common between Switzerland, France, North-Italy, Austria/SouthGermany. Reflect on this). You don't distinguish between north and south Italy and you're affected by the most common stereotypes, i fear.




Yet by this time, i could pick out a naked italian from a Dane without much head-scratching - I promise you.

A southern Italian from a scandinavian ? I agree with you.

A northern-Italian from a French or an Austrian ? I dubt strongly you could distinguish, Loki.........

herr georg
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Saddam hussein? LOL images/smilies/pantheon_europa/tongue01.gif What are you talking about?

I'm just trying to use him as an example of an arab middle easterner. Heck, you could probably see people who look like that in bavaria, and they wouldn't look out of place if their hair and eyebrows looked just a little more european (texture, not colour).
I think the boundaries between the middle east and europe are mainly cultural. I mean sure there are plenty of people out there that get called 'arab' and 'semitic' and they look very different to europeans (sudish). But if you took alot of european women, put a shaul around their head, you wouldn't give them a second look on the street.
Just look at cat stevens. A greek. But with his islamic beard, clothing and cap,
he looks like a typical mid-eastern muslim.
In ancient times, light eyes and fair hair, even freckles and ruddiness, wasn't such an unusual thing in the mid-east. The phoenicians were known by their light eyes. And the moabites by their red hair. King david the hebrew had fair hair, fair skin and blue eyes. Jesus is described as being fair haired and light eyed, by historians of the time. There is a legend of muhammed seeing him on an astral journey, and he was described as ruddy and freckled, so that was obviously how people in the mid-east knew his appearance.
The typical arab is dark haired, dark eyed, light skinned. They always saw themselves as white and they still do. You should see the way arabs commented on negros. Muhammed himself said that the ethiopians had heads like raisins :D. Heck, the Qu'ran even says people with a white face get into heaven and people with a black face go to hell.

Glenlivet
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 10:37 AM
I thought that myself, but I can explain it better... :)

I was not speaking of a western and eastern Mediterranid. Greeks are much more than just Mediterranid, and so are the northern Iberians.

There are some major differences in deep genetic ancestry (the old Palaeolithic vs Neolithic discussion) between Mediterranean (this large regions is not just made up of Mediterranid types) populations, but this is not seen in the physique, perhaps because most Mediterranid forms go to the same Natufid source. morfrain_encilgar and Frans would probably tell you something similar. Morphological types are more modern than the genetic lineages we might share. They are just a snapshot of evolution. It can change in a few generations but the genetic imprint that stays the same for much longer. We can say more when we have better information on the autosomal DNA of Mediterranean populations.

Furthermore, Northern Iberia which I mentioned, is not predominantly Mediterranid, but Berid, and somewhat Nord-Atlantid and slightly Alpinid (or alpinised Berids). There are northern Iberians that may pass for Irish, but it is because of coarse, only partly depigmented Cro-Magnoid elements in both populations, and not West-Mediterranid (or "actual" Mediterranid, i.e Insular type). There are also Atlanto-Meds not only in western Europe, but also the Balkans. Coon recognised this. They are actually not very high-skulled. The so-called Pontids of Russia (southern?) are quite blonde, higher-skulled and different from these in Bulgaria and Romania.

I am not saying all others would not be able to tell and I can. Anthropologists did tests on how people can judge Europeans. See We Europeans by Huxley et al. I did not do very well. I had around 60 % correct.

It is best to stay humble on these matters. Few have great abilities to tell the origin of people. It is common how real opinions come out if no info is given on recent ethnic origin. Loki knows this too. I can give numerous examples.

I also do not think many people here know how Syrians and Lebanese people can look. You would not be able to distinguish them from many southern European Mediterranids. They have more Taurid, for sure, and they are on average much lighter (surprise surprise), but why I can distinguish them is because of their experessions and how they dress, not strictly phenotype.

I will give you an example and you will see what I mean. Maybe you have seen the film Addicted to Love. Tcheky Karyo play a French chef called Anton. I thought that he is typical French (partly because of his cultural expressions and the other is that the same traits are found in some Europid regions, in this case Taurid, but not only) when I first saw the film. I am positive that you would think that too. I found out his ancestry only later when I searched on his name.

http://images.google.se/images?svnum=10&hl=sv&lr=&q=Tcheky+Karyo+


Aren't you contradicting yourself here? :)

herr georg
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 10:50 AM
Syrians could probably pass as central europeans who fell asleep in salariums :). Most lebanese models are european looking. I think there's even a thread on this website about it. Of course they were not considered white :P.

Huzar
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 01:00 PM
. I think it is better to talk about a belt of Southern Europids and Northern Europids. The British Isles are to some extent inbetween. The northern group should be from Slovenia and Montenegro and northwards.


I agree, less or more

Weg
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Syrians could probably pass as central europeans who fell asleep in salariums :). Most lebanese models are european looking. I think there's even a thread on this website about it. Of course they were not considered white :P.

Are they europeans for that? What's the link with the Europid concept Anyway?

Loki
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 06:49 PM
I'm North-Italian (Some say "Padanian";) too), that is a bit different........... If you had really travelled in your life you surely would know.

I am aware of this. :) A few months ago I met a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Italian from Northern Italy. Still, this phenotype, with true blonde hair and blue eyes is rare everywhere in Italy - even the North.


Anyway, my dear Loki, you associate too strictly a nationality with a phenotype. What you mean exactly for "typically italian", Loki ? Let me guess : a distinctly short-gracile, dark/swarthy, hooknosed and hairy person ? Well if it's so, i'm NOT italian, then :P . At least not your stereotypical image of the italian , which coincides perfectly with southern Italy, but not with the area where i live (The ALPS, more precisely, and not the mediterranean sea, if you have some basilar notions of geography.For your information the Alps, are a geographical zone in common between Switzerland, France, North-Italy, Austria/SouthGermany. Reflect on this). You don't distinguish between north and south Italy and you're affected by the most common stereotypes, i fear.

Phenotypically and subracially I would class Northern Italians with Swiss, Austrians and Southern Germans. Of course this is a generalization. But I think it would be hard to distinguish those nationalities. Individually it would be difficult, but in groups of ten, the groups of Swiss and Southern Germans would have the higher percentage of blonds.

As far as Southern Italians go, well... I won't comment excessively. We all know that they are much darker and further removed phenotypically from Northern and Central Europeans. They cluster with North Africans more easily.


A southern Italian from a scandinavian ? I agree with you.


A northern-Italian from a French or an Austrian ? I dubt strongly you could distinguish, Loki.........

... but compare a Northern Italian with a Swede or Dane, and therein you will find the answer to my first post's intention. ;)

Huzar
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 10:38 PM
Phenotypically and subracially I would class Northern Italians with Swiss, Austrians and Southern Germans. Of course this is a generalization. But I think it would be hard to distinguish those nationalities. Individually it would be difficult, but in groups of ten, the groups of Swiss and Southern Germans would have the higher percentage of blonds.

As far as Southern Italians go, well... I won't comment excessively. We all know that they are much darker and further removed phenotypically from Northern and Central Europeans. They cluster with North Africans more easily.

Well, at least you're aware of this basilar distinction. Good.




... but compare a Northern Italian with a Swede or Dane, and therein you will find the answer to my first post's intention. ;)


Ok, a North-Italian doesn't look like swede, I admit. It's natural afterall. But at this point the discussion is more complex ; thread title is "Southern europeans etc.......". From what i've understood you defend your nordish concept against southern europeans. It's logic from your point of view. But if you exclude North-Italy too, you exclude a notable part of central europe. Don't you think your vision being a bit too strict (or rigid) ?
I know that in a nordicist perspective, northeurope is the cradle of European civilization and nordid phenotypical types are the most pure example of Europid, but isn't excessive the exclusion of all not northeuropean europe ? Nordish group afterall is nothing without the other europeans( and visa-versa).

I agree definetely with Eriksson ideas; if you really want to preserve the "nordish" group you can't to exclude a bigger europid circle. It's madness to say that nordish group could survive alone. A big part of european secular history was made by nordish groups togheter with other phenotypical types (at least in Central europe). This is a fact.

Loki
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 11:01 PM
From what i've understood you defend your nordish concept against southern europeans. It's logic from your point of view. But if you exclude North-Italy too, you exclude a notable part of central europe. Don't you think your vision being a bit too strict (or rigid) ?
I know that in a nordicist perspective, northeurope is the cradle of European civilization and nordid phenotypical types are the most pure example of Europid, but isn't excessive the exclusion of all not northeuropean europe ? Nordish group afterall is nothing without the other europeans( and visa-versa).

I agree definetely with Eriksson ideas; if you really want to preserve the "nordish" group you can't to exclude a bigger europid circle. It's madness to say that nordish group could survive alone. A big part of european secular history was made by nordish groups togheter with other phenotypical types (at least in Central europe). This is a fact.

There is no clear border between the European subtypes. The norm is gradual transformation from one major type to another, with considerable overlapping (or hybrid) zones. Central Europe (which includes North Italy) constitutes this great overlapping zone.

When I say we (Nordicists?) would like Northern Europe to remain pure Nordic, then it is not meant as a war-cry against Southern Europeans. It is merely the desire that this distinct regional types will still remain distinct in the future. I don't understand why some people can't comprehend the difference between co-operation and intermixture. I fully support Northern Italians in their struggle, and consider them kin in a way. Yet I see no reason why Italians must now be allowed to move to Sweden and procreate with Nordic girls, just as a show of cameraderie. :-O

Huzar
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 11:20 PM
I fully support Northern Italians in their struggle, and consider them kin in a way.

Thank you.




Yet I see no reason why Italians must now be allowed to move to Sweden and procreate with Nordic girls, just as a show of cameraderie. :-O


Is it your biggest fear huh ?:P ..........Don't worry Loki, my girlfriend is "nordish" effectively, but she is from my same city. Not from Sweden. Scandinavia is safe :lol

Loki
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 11:26 PM
Don't worry Loki, my girlfriend is "nordish" effectively, but she is from my same city. Not from Sweden. Scandinavia is safe :lol

You Northern Italians should really secede. You have absolutely nothing in common with Napoli or Palermo.

GreenHeart
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 02:12 AM
You Northern Italians should really secede. You have absolutely nothing in common with Napoli or Palermo.

Northern Italy used to belong to Austria back in the good old days. It was called the Tyrol. Hitler wanted to get it back because it's Germanic racially and culterally ...:) He mentions it frequently in "Mein Kampf".

Huzar
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 07:53 AM
You Northern Italians should really secede. You have absolutely nothing in common with Napoli or Palermo.

Absolutely. Thanks again:thumbup

Loki
Friday, September 30th, 2005, 09:25 PM
Northern Italy used to belong to Austria back in the good old days. It was called the Tyrol. Hitler wanted to get it back because it's Germanic racially and culterally ...:) He mentions it frequently in "Mein Kampf".

Hello darling.

Bioblitzkrieg
Thursday, October 20th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Ive always had the inclination to think that the link between long headed mediteraneans in a belt running all the way from the British isles/Iberian towards India had to do with the racial formation and adaptations following the progress and recession of the ice sheets and climatic belts over the past say 50,000 years. Genetically it would point to the same evidence perhaps? Though I dont have those statistics offhand It seems like when the ice sheets were at thier lowest, Mongoloid type peoples inhabited a belt from central/northern Europe to northern asia while what we would today consider nordic type peoples were located In a similar belt somewhere south of this, running east into eurasia, dipping and rising in lattitude/elevation accordingly with the environmental conditions that would allow pigmentation in the eyes and hair to become so fair and light, not to mentions a lovely blue for the eyes. Maybe the remnants of this are seen in the green eyes and red haired people still found in the remote highlands of mongolia, or the questionably european looking ainu peoples of northern Japan.

as the Ice sheets and climatic Zones shifted more towards thier modern day positions, by social or environmental change the physical features of the people geographically followed accordingly. Pushing the Mongoloids up further towards the arctic circle in Europe as people accustomed and suited to the new environment migrated to thier positions of formed into it, im not really sure which one it is, the chicken and the egg question ill avoid.

The pursuit of a pure anything shouldnt even come to mind, its gradient variation between a universal polarity from the coldest environment to the warmest, the "purest" nordic character from central sweden might have that asiatic remnant of an extraordinary wide cheekbone, long without the need for the dark thick strait hair to protect thier scalp from such extremes of cold or the pigment in the eyes to protect them against the strong sun that a people living on reflective ice would need to have in order to get around efficiently.

The Mediteranean people that were speaking of would be white depending on the definition of who is white and where they are in the mediteranean world, in terms of being a caucasoid they certainly are included, but as for being considered partially nordic or in its motherfamily is certainly dependant on thier geographical position near or afar from northern based fairer peoples. A North Italian is most likely partially mediteranean , partially alpine and partially from a lower germanic tribal offshoot, like the Lombards, giving the people in that region the traits and exceptions of all ethnic influences mentioned. Id agree in saying a rough equivelent to a north italian would be a Swissman or a dark haired Bavarian or austrian. Yet when your heading south on the boot peninsula, the proximity to nieghbors often will tell the makeup of the region in question, sicilily for instance, is most likely more related to north africans than Greece, which has and had a large influx of Balkan proto Indo european peoples and later migrations of Slavs, who in the western half of thier sphere I believe, bring a significant amount of nordic traits, especially when looking in comparison to the nieghbors of the south,

its good to talk about these things with you people, agree of disagree i want to hear, point out any falsities or push forth more truths if what ive said has any.