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Feyn
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 03:54 AM
What are skadis gerneral thoughts on suicide ? The cowards way out ? The heros way out ? Before anyone asks, no, i am not suicidal ! But i had some very fascinating discussions about the subject so i was interested how you people think about it. I will post my insights a little later, i dont want to influence you too much ;)

Loyalist
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 04:10 AM
I would examine suicide on a case-by-case basis. My father committed suicide when I was 15; he was a bipolar alcoholic who had nearly a dozen suicide attempts on record before finally succeeding. In his case it is hard to say whether these attempts were cries for help (he seemed to go out of his way to create circumstances where he would be found in time) or if he sincerely wanted to opt out of life. These episodes would come during low points that were entirely of his making, and would invariably be done while intoxicated. The alcoholism, mental issues, penchant for violence and volatile temperment, and inability to hold down a job due to some combination of the latter had a seriously detrimental effect on the lives of myself, my mother, and our extended family. When he topped himself, he left us in a huge mess that he was too much of a lost cause to deal with himself, so I think the coward option applies nicely in this case.

Frostbite
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 04:19 AM
Usually someone who commits suicide is very unhappy.

I feel terrible for anyone in that situation :(

Wulfram
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 04:31 AM
I already related this story in another thread but I will share it here also:

Evidence emerged after the Waco massacre in 1993 that many of the besieged committed suicide during those last fiery moments. If you recall the entire compound went up in flames in a matter of seconds. Afterward the media accused them of having taken the cowards way out. They were immediately shut up when one of the survivors explained that the reason they killed themselves was because they were burning alive. The flames trapped them so quickly that the people inside, including numerous children, had no chance of escape. Many of those who committed suicide turned the guns on some of the children first in order to prevent them from suffering. Sadly, most of them weren't so lucky.

This to me is a good example of when suicide is a necessary thing without having the stigma attached.

Sigyn
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 04:36 AM
I'm kind of undecided on this issue.

I don't think suicide should have a stigma. I guess our current taboo on suicide is a result of bourgeois-Christian morality, while the pagan Germanics and Romans didn't have those feelings. It used to be viewed as a honorable way out, while dying of old age in your bed was a disgrace.

Still, it's obviously tragic for the family of the person who kills himself. Especially if he or she is a healthy person who has all reasons to live. I'm really sorry about your loss, Loyalist.

Weitgereister
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 04:40 AM
I would examine suicide on a case-by-case basis.

I agree completely. Look at Hitler - rather than being promenaded about and letting the liberal allies make a pony show of his trials, he kept some dignity and honor even in his defeat. Of course, this is only my opinion, but it's how I feel.

Feyn
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 05:00 AM
Well then let me share the story of a very good friend since my childhood. He was depressed for many years to the point he got suicidal. But what stopped him from actually doing it was am immense fear of dying. He had aquired quite an interesting collection of ways to kill himself (and i dont want to know where he got some of the stuff, he even had cyanide capsules and phenobarbital, which is used to euthanize animals). He also had a whole collection of books, you wouldnt believe what you can get your hands on if you are determined enough like spreadsheets from actual henchmen with bodyweight and drophight to secure breaking the neck without decapitation (apparently that happened quite a lot in earlier days ).
Then one day his attitude seemed quite changed. His depression seemed gone, I kinew this is a warning sign in people with suicidal tendencies, so i wanted to talk to him as quick as possible. We had a conversation that blew my mind, and is the reasaon i started this thread. He explained to me he has finally overcome his fear of death and made an interesting discovery. Once you have overcome your fear of death and are ready to take your life at any point you choose life signifficantly changes. He can do now whatever he wants, without much conseuquences. Too dangerous ? Who cares, its not like you want to live anyway. Debt at the bank ? Who cares, its not like i am artound to actually have to pay for all that. It opens you up to experiences a normal person would really have trouble to have for fear of consequences. Unprotected sex ? As if any std has the potential to scare you. Drugs ? Who cares if i get hooked and OD has also lost all its horrors. Basejumping or any other adrenalin junkie sport ? Why not. He is actively planning a tour through afghanistan. I have never see him happier. He says if he is evert in a situation where he feels he fucked up enough he will finally end his life. I frind that a strangely alluring philosophy

OutlawsnUnderdogs
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 05:19 AM
You are not truly living if you fear death.... We are all born slowly dying and not one of us knows if we will be here tomorrow, seems to me the thing to worry about is not taking chances and truly living...

A quote from a movie that has stuck with me....

"The great father rolled the skein of your life a long time ago, go and hide in a hole if you must, but you will not live one instant longer"

Feyn
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 05:25 AM
this is more then just having no fear of death, its also being ready to take your own life at any time you choose, and not really planning to stay around too much longer. Only together that philosophy really works

Stanley
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 05:39 AM
You're not human if you don't fear death. If instead we were able to not fear death, as philosophical posturers claim, one would have no problem walking into a ghetto with KKK/Nazi/anti-black insignia. You may call that person enlightened; I call them a fool. It's a basic survival instinct to fear death.

Suicide, with obvious exceptions like those in the Waco massacre per Ronan, is invariably an act of selfishness and irresponsibility. It deserves to be condemned.

The Horned God
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 05:45 AM
You are not truly living if you fear death.... We are all born slowly dying and not one of us knows if we will be here tomorrow, seems to me the thing to worry about is not taking chances and truly living...

I agree with this up to a point. It may not be the length of your years but the quality of them which is the most important factor in finding satisfaction in life.

However,


"The great father rolled the skein of your life a long time ago, go and hide in a hole if you must, but you will not live one instant longer"

This seems to be saying that the chances of a premature death are the same for an Alaskan crab fisherman as for a librarian; a conclusion not borne out by insurance statistics.

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 06:31 AM
I already related this story in another thread but I will share it here also:

Evidence emerged after the Waco massacre in 1993 that many of the besieged committed suicide during those last fiery moments. If you recall the entire compound went up in flames in a matter of seconds. Afterward the media accused them of having taken the cowards way out. They were immediately shut up when one of the survivors explained that the reason they killed themselves was because they were burning alive. The flames trapped them so quickly that the people inside, including numerous children, had no chance of escape. Many of those who committed suicide turned the guns on some of the children first in order to prevent them from suffering. Sadly, most of them weren't so lucky.

This to me is a good example of when suicide is a necessary thing without having the stigma attached.

I would like to add to this story a bit of some facts that I have gathered on my own.

1) The Government was essentially the one that set the Fire, by pumping a potentially flammable gas into a confined area, where mind you they were using Lanterns because the Government had cut off the power supply.

2) The Same Jewish Child Protective Services Bitch!,
Namely one Marleigh Meisner.

that was involved in this tragedy was also involved in instigation an almost identical stand off against a group of Mormons.

It was this that forced me to reconsider the governments motives in this incident, and my current belief is that it was in fact a act of Genocide, perpetrated by a Jewish, Leftist, and anti-Germanic Child Protective Services.

Funny coincidence that all the children happened to be not only white Germanic, but from the photos that I seen, very Nordic in Appearance.

Granted most of the people here are not, Mormons, or are you Branch Davidians, but I grant you it would not stop these Peticular bunch from killing you and smearing your name.


Check out some of the Truth Here (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/06/backpedaling-cps-cheerleaders-jumping.html)

Hamar Fox
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 08:48 PM
I've never understood the 'coward's way out' position. Fear evolved as an emotion precisely to ward organisms from injury and, ultimately, death. To stare death in the face isn't cowardice, since cowardice is the succumbing to fear. People like to build up the idea of 'facing life and soldiering on despite adversity' as opposed to 'chickening out of the race', but the truth is that it's relatively easy to go on living a life of misery, because no matter how prolonged that misery might be, it's dispersed throughout the rest of your days. No given point that person will ever experience is going to match the pure unbridled fear of that moment of overcoming everything your organism was ever built to avoid and stepping into that ultimate unknown.

To me, suicide is always a tragedy. It's a tragedy that anyone -- and often it's the deepest and most beautiful among us -- can be so miserable as to be compelled to quit life. That level of internal torment is hard for many, and certainly the less introspective and isolated, to grasp, but boy do they like to judge.

I think the lack of sympathy that commonly greets news of a suicide, the hideous mocking and judgement that follows, is possibly the ugliest human vice, and in many ways justifies the suicide victim's choice to leave such a vile mob. That said, I do think suicide is very often selfish. Anyone who leaves behind a family, especially when those people aren't even the root of his misery, is undeniably cruel, and I have less -- but still a lot of -- sympathy for him. Often, though, it's the lack of anyone to care about them that's that actually drives them to suicide.

I'd never consider suicide myself (I didn't even when I suffered from a bout of manic depression, and I certainly don't think about it now I'm relatively content in life) but I don't judge others for making the decision. I would always try and convince them to have another go at life, though, and if they needed a friend to get them through, I'd happily be that person.

Stanley
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 10:46 PM
To me, suicide is always a tragedy. It's a tragedy that anyone -- and often it's the deepest and most beautiful among us -- can be so miserable as to be compelled to quit life. That level of internal torment is hard for many, and certainly the less introspective and isolated, to grasp, but boy do they like to judge.

I think the lack of sympathy that commonly greets news of a suicide, the hideous mocking and judgement that follows, is possibly the ugliest human vice, and in many ways justifies the suicide victim's choice to leave such a vile mob. That said, I do think suicide is very often selfish. Anyone who leaves behind a family, especially when those people aren't even the root of his misery, is undeniably cruel, and I have less -- but still a lot of -- sympathy for him. Often, though, it's the lack of anyone to care about them that's that actually drives them to suicide.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I'm going to comment on the bolded portions, because there's stuff in there I take issue with, and since you generally have some of the best insights on Skadi it'd be a shame if it went unchallenged and taken as the irrefutable truth on the matter.

First is that I dislike the criticism of humanity as being too judgemental. I find it's mostly used by those with ugly, depraved lifestyles who incessantly rail against what has ever been seen as right by society. I know you're a libertarian so you'll no doubt disagree with me here, but a healthy society needs to have social stigma directed against antisocial behavior, which leads me into something more on topic.

The problem with suicide is that it almost always has a negative impact, as most people--even the most lonely--have relationships of substance with other people. Those who commit suicide either don't see how (i.e. they don't realize there are people who care about them and will be devastated by their death) or they just don't have a modicum of concern for how those people might feel if they do kill themselves. The former are generally the teenagers and young adults who feel alienated from the world, and the latter are those who usually have a family, abuse one substance or another, and don't care to live life any longer, and it's this latter group that comprises most of the suicides I've encountered in real life and epitomizes the selfish and irresponsible nature of suicide. The brilliant mind that decides to kill themselves because of utter isolation and despair is a rarity.

I also feel you're hyperbolizing the judgement passed on suicides, because, in my experience, it's been quite the opposite, where there's an overwhelming influx of feigned sympathy for the person, even if that person was an absolute bastard for severely damaging the lives of whomever they left behind.

If that makes me judgemental, fine, but I will never condone suicide as long as we still have a social structure built on our intimate relationships with other people.

Naglfari
Tuesday, October 11th, 2011, 10:55 PM
Looking at it in my case I can see a point where I am either vegetative or terminally ill or just at the very end. I could see myself committing suicide so as no longer to be either a financial or an emotional burden on my family.

Otherwise I have never been at a point in my life where I saw that as a viable option.

As to others who do it due to emotional or financial crises and such I feel sad for them but I don't condemn it as I am unable to experience it from their perspective.

Patrioten
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 12:32 AM
Once you have overcome your fear of death and are ready to take your life at any point you choose life signifficantly changes. He can do now whatever he wants, without much conseuquences. Too dangerous ? Who cares, its not like you want to live anyway. Debt at the bank ? Who cares, its not like i am artound to actually have to pay for all that. It opens you up to experiences a normal person would really have trouble to have for fear of consequences. Unprotected sex ? As if any std has the potential to scare you. Drugs ? Who cares if i get hooked and OD has also lost all its horrors. Basejumping or any other adrenalin junkie sport ? Why not. He is actively planning a tour through afghanistan. I have never see him happier. He says if he is evert in a situation where he feels he fucked up enough he will finally end his life. I frind that a strangely alluring philosophyAlot of these experiences are dependent not so much on personal choice as they are on opportunity. What happens if he finds that those opportunities aren't open to him (whatever they may be, it needn't be those listed here)? Basing your continued existence on fantastical experiences yet to be realized or the prospects of them occuring might work for a while, but eventually you will have to come to terms with your actual, day-to-day existence. This is in reference to the last part about it being an alluring philosophy. To me this amounts to day-dreaming, and I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but in a cautionary way, in that it does not serve as a sensible guide in life nor does it facilitate one coming to terms with one's existence. We all have hopes and dreams, some of them we know to be out of reach and impossible to achieve, yet we still hold on to them, nurture them whilst still being grounded in reality and dealing with life as it stands. Having reasonable expectations on life and learning to work with the opportunities that life has to offer is key.

I have never understood suicide in the way that it is used in modern society, nor the people who commit suicide. In some cases I can understand it, if a person has suffered an extreme trauma, mental or physical. But in most cases this does not appear to be the case from my casual and highly unscientific observations. In most cases it seems as though there exists no obvious reason as to why the person would want to kill himself, if we disregard the mandatory "depression" diagnosis. To me it seems as though suicide becomes the consequence of certain thought patterns in the individual, and that the "power of the mind" plays a large part in letting on the depression that sometimes end in suicide. After all, humans are known to believe in just about anything under the sun, and to do so with a passion. If a person believes in the central ideas that seem to be common among depressive/suicidal individuals (my life is crap, nobody loves me, i have nothing to live for, the future is pitch black, i dont deserve to live etc.), then it is reasonable to think that they can become strong enough to influence a person's passions and feelings.

I therefor view suicide first and foremost as a failure of the individual towards himself. He has turned his mind against himself, his mind then influencing his emotions. This is not a condemnation of the individual but my attempt at making sense personally of depression and suicide, both of which I am a stranger to. It seems to me that the only person that can keep you on the straight and narrow, is yourself. If it was reassurance from others that those depressed and suicidal needed to ultimately walk away from their inner darkness and embrace the light again then it wouldn't be as serious of a problem that it is. But if the war is waged within oneself, with oneself against oneself, then it becomes clear why the answer to the problem lies not in the outside world but on the inside of the individual. Beyond a certain point it will probably be difficult to step back from the abyss, but based on my understanding of depression and suicidal thoughts, these are not formed over night or are inherent in those individuals. They have started off more or less with a normal state of mind, and drifted over time into a thinking which is self-destructive in the literal sense. Where their insticts of self-preservation should step in and safe themselves from themselves, this does not happen and instead you are allowed to progress down a path which leads to a decreased quality of life which in turn might stoke the depression further.

My point then is that suicide is wrongful from the perspective of oneself in that it represents the culmination of a war against oneself. With people suffering extreme trauma it's one thing, and those people I can understand as I don't expect people to be able to hold together mentally after such events. But in those cases where there is no satisfying explanation or reason why the person would want to end his or her life I view this from the perspective outlined above. They themselves are ultimately their own destroyer, and so should also have the power in their hands to reverse the process, at least up to some point, which I will leave undefined for the time being, beyond which it might be too late, resulting in the person ending his life. With mankind's capacity for thinking and reflecting about herself comes also the potential for suboptimal thought patterns that conflict with the interests of the individual herself and the basic instincts of self-preservation. That the correct response to these thoughts should be suicide is a notion which I strongly object to. But the problem then lies not in the suicide itself but the path towards it, and the individual's responses and actions (mental and physical) preceeding it.

TSPagan
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 12:50 AM
I have no problem with suicide, it can be sadness or a ritual experiment. My high school girlfriend was found hanging earlier this year. She had a lot to live for, so that is sad. We all think either her drug addict abusive husband did it or drove her to it. I think I would harm him should we cross paths, glad I live far away, I'm not going to jail again. But suicide as ritual, to trancend into change or extinction/void, well that just begs my curiosity, I always want to know more.

Van Wellenkamp
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 01:34 AM
It is a tricky subject. My best friend committed suicide, and I had the unfortunate luck of finding his remains. The hardest thing I ever had to do was inform his daughter, who is also my God daughter. I pray no one ever has to do that, it broke my heart and still weighs heavy on me to this day. Good post thanks for bringing back the memories, that is how we live on. He was a good friend just wish I could have prevented this.

Feyn
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 01:50 AM
I would like to thank TSPASGAN for his point. Strangely too many here have a rather narrow idea about why someoone would commit suicide, or what suicide even is. Let me quote another website here ( newsgroup alt.suicide.methods,alt.suicide.holiday, talk.euthanasia: a practical guide to suicide ) :


we need to devise scenarios for the typical experiences people are having when they are suicidal, like those who:

* are sick and dying anyway and want an easy way
out that doesn't involve a lot of mobility

* are depressed and can't find the motivation to
go great distances

* are disgusted with life and want a way out that
isn't too painful, messy or likely to fail

* want to die for any reason and are afraid of
being discovered, seen as a coward, or judged as
evil by those she loves and is obsessed with

* want to go out in a blaze of glory, making a
strong statement against all their enemies

* want revenge on some society, group or person,
and want to use their suicide as a means of
achieving this

* want to become an enigma or a media sensation,
challenging the boundaries of narcissus

karolvs
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 02:09 AM
Interesting. As far as my situation is concerned it would be a cowardly way out. I have a wife and 3 (soon 4) kids. I could never do that to them. I have no fear of death. Whether this is a good characteristic or a flaw I am not sure. I have stared down the barrel of a gun, been in a warzone, seen death first hand from violence and drugs and natural causes, maybe that has eased my worries of it. I do not seek it out however. I believe we must seperate that. Being afraid of death or seeking it. Death may not be a release, it may only make it worse for you, no one can possibly know, so though I do not fear it, I do not seek it. It must be considered on an individual basis as to whether it is a valid option. Waco, yes it was valid. An alcoholic father, it was cowardice. My uncle committed suicide mainly due to drugs and a terrible wife and kids who treated him like crap. I still believe it was a cowards move on his part. Most worldly pitfalls can be overcome and the challenge of overcoming it is a character building excersize. Anyway, it is just my thoughts on it.

Ocko
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 04:34 AM
I can understand your friend who is not afraid anymore of death. Once I scratched by (through an accident falling in and out of consciousness for days) at one point I gave up to fight for life and it was fine whether I die or I don't.

I woke up but from then on my life only belonged to me, it was a gift, I didn't owe anybody anything anymore. Sure a lot of fear left and without fear life is different.

For suicide there are different reason, some noble, some understandable and some are plain nonsense.

The person makes the decision and they are responsible for it.

May the Gods have mercy on their souls

Sigurd
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 11:25 AM
Suicide is like any murder IMHO grouped into several groups which should be judged by those around them differently, graded on the level at which the choice of ending one's life prematurely contributes to any benefit for those who will be around to mourn:

1.) Morally sound and potentially indispensable, even honourable suicide: Killing oneself to be one less mouth to feed, killing oneself to prevent continued life from acting as involuntary betrayal to one's comrades, sacrificing oneself for the benefit of those around one.

2.) Morally understandable or ritual suicide: Being terminally ill, or as dictated by an honour codex of a people, profession, group in a given situation - including a religious reason.

3.) Morally ambivalent, but not comdemnatory suicide: Seeing no quality in life and acting to pre-empt a situation in which a #2-suicide is called for. Fleeing from a difficult situation and opting that free death is a favourable choice to living enslavement.

4.) Condemnable or non-understandable suicide: Choosing to take the easy route out. Picking the "seeing no quality" option with remaining obligations in life (such as dependent children, etc.) Blowing oneself up in an act of misguided holy wars; or of course the classic, killing oneself for the heck of it, etc.

Jäger
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 12:09 PM
In German there are two distinctive words for suicide: "Selbstmord" [self-murder] and "Freitod" [voluntary-death], these words should explain it very well :)

Feyn
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 12:46 PM
Sigurd i found your last comment a little hypocritical. One the one hand you say it is very noble and honourable to kill yourself for the benefit of those around you, to help your comrades. Then in your 4th point you condemn blowing yourself up in a holy war. Just because you dont like their goals its not any less noble to kill yourself for the benefit of those around you.
One surely has to differentiate between suicide bombers who attack soldiers in a war and those who attack inncocent civilians sometimes even kids. The latter is surely to be condemned but the first isnt any less noibler because you hate their goals.

Unity Mitford
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 01:08 PM
i am bipolar and i often have these thoughts (for a variety of reasons) but the truth is, i could never kill myself for the sake of elder family members.

if, however, i died naturally and on a career high, i would not mind so much, as long as everyone knew i was happy and how much i loved them.

The Aesthete
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 01:58 PM
No way

Our people need us

Thorolf
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 02:07 PM
Well then let me share the story of a very good friend since my childhood. He was depressed for many years to the point he got suicidal. But what stopped him from actually doing it was am immense fear of dying. He had aquired quite an interesting collection of ways to kill himself (and i dont want to know where he got some of the stuff, he even had cyanide capsules and phenobarbital, which is used to euthanize animals). He also had a whole collection of books, you wouldnt believe what you can get your hands on if you are determined enough like spreadsheets from actual henchmen with bodyweight and drophight to secure breaking the neck without decapitation (apparently that happened quite a lot in earlier days ).
Then one day his attitude seemed quite changed. His depression seemed gone, I kinew this is a warning sign in people with suicidal tendencies, so i wanted to talk to him as quick as possible. We had a conversation that blew my mind, and is the reasaon i started this thread. He explained to me he has finally overcome his fear of death and made an interesting discovery. Once you have overcome your fear of death and are ready to take your life at any point you choose life signifficantly changes. He can do now whatever he wants, without much conseuquences. Too dangerous ? Who cares, its not like you want to live anyway. Debt at the bank ? Who cares, its not like i am artound to actually have to pay for all that. It opens you up to experiences a normal person would really have trouble to have for fear of consequences. Unprotected sex ? As if any std has the potential to scare you. Drugs ? Who cares if i get hooked and OD has also lost all its horrors. Basejumping or any other adrenalin junkie sport ? Why not. He is actively planning a tour through afghanistan. I have never see him happier. He says if he is evert in a situation where he feels he fucked up enough he will finally end his life. I frind that a strangely alluring philosophy


Your friend seems to have taken the path I did when I was younger. I used to be suicidal when I was around 14, my first year of high school. The 3 years of middle school prior were almost as bad as 9th grade, but it got worse that year so I gave up on life. At some point I hit a breaking point where I felt about like what he was telling you. I didn't fear death though I just was tired of living because home life was awful and I had no friends at school and got picked on a lot at the time and had no friends. so I would go from being hit and made fun of at school to being hit and yelled at home.

For me not to long after that point breaking point, I evolved past that and found a new lease on life basically. I decided I matter more than the people being ass holes and it was time to make a place for me to be happy. I fought off everyone mean to me at school and I fought off my dad. Thank god I did, me and him got a much better relationship after I stopped him from being the way he was. At school I tried harder to make friends. By my third year I had a good group of friend, no one really messed with me and my home life was good. Life still is good, no matter what life throws at me it doesn't matter now, I can take anything.

Since I got out of being suicidal I have had a very harsh view of those looking to commit suicide. The ones with real issues wanting to die I feel bad for and I hope they get help because they are being completely stupid. Suicide is the probably the most selfish act you can commit. Not to mention stupid, if people are the cause like it is for a lot of teens. They need to learn to take it out on the people, not themselves. Obviously not going as far as columbine, but they really just need to stand up for themselves.

Though there are also situations where suicide isn't so awful. If a cancer patient who had no chance shot themselves, i would understand. I could understand if someone gets crippled and did it, though this day in you shouldn't give up to early. Who knows what device will be made in the next 10 years to help cripples. Also the people in 9/11 who had 0 chance of being saved and didn't want to die in the fire, in my opinion had full right to commit suicide.

Stanley
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 03:48 PM
In German there are two distinctive words for suicide: "Selbstmord" [self-murder] and "Freitod" [voluntary-death], these words should explain it very well :)

It's unfortunate English doesn't make such a distinction between what are obviously two different things, because in an argument like this, the fact that there are honorable situations to kill yourself (voluntary-death) seems to be used as justification for suicide in general, which is disproportionately dishonorable (self-murder).

Anyway, this discussion is rather irritating in that those who aren't sympathetic to suicide (of the self-murder variety) are deemed ignorant and incapable of understanding the fragile, tormented minds of those who end up killing themselves. In that way it reminds me a lot of everyday politically correct discourse.

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 04:01 PM
There are so many factors that can lead to suicide that it's impossible to make a general statement as to whether the act is reprehensible or not.

As far as ending one's own life when terminally ill is concerned, I've watched both my parents die lingering deaths from cancer and would have fully understood if they'd ended their own suffering. I will certainly do so if I ever find myself in a similar situation and a bullet in the head would be my preferred choice.

Alfadur
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 04:02 PM
I don't have much to add to this topic, as Sigurd explained it well enough. There is the honorable kind of suicide, the understandable kind, and the downright dishonorable kind. Dying to protect someone you love or sacrificing yourself for a higher ideal and the common good would fit the first one. Killing yourself when you're suffering from a terminal disease or old age, that's understandable and would fit the second one (I totally accept that some people want to be put out of their misery). Finally, committing suicide just because you don't want to try harder in life would be the third one, the dishonorable kind.

And indeed, as someone else stated before, it's a product of the bourgeois-Christian cowardly morality to value material comforts above all and shun the idea of the voluntary death.



In that way it reminds me a lot of everyday discourse where I have to be careful not to say something politically incorrect.
Stanley, cut out that crap.

This is the Skadi version of "Reducto Ad Hitlerum"; when you don't like what someone else has to say, you immediately resort to comparing them with liberals or political correctness.

Stanley
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Stanley, cut out that crap.

This is the Skadi version of "Reducto Ad Hitlerum"; when you don't like what someone else has to say, you immediately resort to comparing them with liberals or political correctness.

I was mostly referring to this. I think it's an appropriate response.


I would like to thank TSPASGAN for his point. Strangely too many here have a rather narrow idea about why someoone would commit suicide, or what suicide even is. Let me quote another website here ( newsgroup alt.suicide.methods,alt.suicide.holiday, talk.euthanasia: a practical guide to suicide ) :


we need to devise scenarios for the typical experiences people are having when they are suicidal, like those who:

* are sick and dying anyway and want an easy way
out that doesn't involve a lot of mobility

* are depressed and can't find the motivation to
go great distances

* are disgusted with life and want a way out that
isn't too painful, messy or likely to fail

* want to die for any reason and are afraid of
being discovered, seen as a coward, or judged as
evil by those she loves and is obsessed with

* want to go out in a blaze of glory, making a
strong statement against all their enemies

* want revenge on some society, group or person,
and want to use their suicide as a means of
achieving this

* want to become an enigma or a media sensation,
challenging the boundaries of narcissus

NoClue
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 09:22 PM
I can't imagine just completely giving up on life. We're all gonna die eventually anyway, can't they just wait it out and keep themselves busy :(

Sigurd
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Sigurd i found your last comment a little hypocritical. One the one hand you say it is very noble and honourable to kill yourself for the benefit of those around you, to help your comrades.

On the comrades part I was more thinking of the type of suicide where a grenade gets thrown into the group and one guy sits down on the grenade, sacrificing him so the rest of his group can survive instead of losing let's say five out of ten.

Alternatively the wounded man who kills himself because vital signs might betray their position on a field of modern warfare with heat & movement radar.


Then in your 4th point you condemn blowing yourself up in a holy war. Just because you dont like their goals its not any less noble to kill yourself for the benefit of those around you.

Um, no. I don't think there's something particularly "noble" in walking into a group of civilians and then blowing oneself up holding the unarmed crowd for unknowing collaterals. It's no single bit more honourable than ABB firing at youths on Utřya, in fact you could say it's worse because at least Breivik's victims had the chance to see what killed them and some still had the chance to say hasty goodbyes to their families.

I thought it was pretty evident that f.ex. the Kamikaze flyers of Japan's WWII force weren't included in Group #4, but somewhere between #1 and #2. It's also clear that the guy who blows himself up when captured by alien soldiers (his faith or code of honour may commandeer him so) might fall under #2 and the guy who blows himself up near soldiers about to enter his home village actually falls under #1. These aren't acts of "holy war", these are acts of defense.

Some Islamist suicide bomber blowing himself up in the middle of an underground train hardly committed a noble suicide; at least it wouldn't be any nobler than if I stormed into the local synagogue and gunned down everyone present during service for the Jewish influence over my country. ;)

Sybren
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Finally, committing suicide just because you don't want to try harder in life would be the third one, the dishonorable kind.
I don't think you can judge another on that. What goes on in anothers' mind might be so excruciatingly unbearable that we cannot even imagine it. It's one of those things that we want to look at objectively, but we really can't. Trying to understand someone like that will get us nowhere.

Ţoreiđar
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 10:42 PM
I believe some people simply aren't meant for this World, in several aspects, and deserve to feel the ease of not living anymore, instead of keep living a life that just keeps gnawing on them. Sure, it will in most cases be very hard for the person's near family to bear their suicide, but I don't think that's the responsability for any person that has not chosen to be granted the (in their case) curse of life. Of course, that doesn't not apply to anyone who has children of their own to support, in my opinion.

Sigurd
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 10:48 PM
I believe some people simply aren't meant for this World, in several aspects, and deserve to feel the ease of not living anymore, instead of keep living a life that just keeps gnawing on them.

Then let them volunteer for the draft or something. If you really want to die because life seems so pointless to you, then at least have the decency to do something worthwhile before you go. You'll either find a purpose in life and be glad to be able to live for another day --- or you'll die. Win/win situation. ;)

Unity Mitford
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 10:56 PM
my friend is suicidal. i think love and reason can cure his problems, but he does not. he is single and unemployed, so considers himself useless.
he is a very good man and perfectly intelligent, but his family and his society has really failed him.

Ţoreiđar
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 11:01 PM
Then let them volunteer for the draft or something. If you really want to die because life seems so pointless to you [...]Not necessarily just life, but the World/Cosmos in itself. What then is the purpose of going into battle?

Sigurd
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 11:46 PM
Not necessarily just life, but the World/Cosmos in itself. What then is the purpose of going into battle?

(Insert "world/cosmos" into "life/death" in the first paragraph if you please).

Finding something worthwhile to do until life or death takes its course anyway. He could just be going from battle to battle as a mercenary, without any obligations, without anything to live for, just to try and see how far and how long he can run from what he wishes to embrace before it catches up with him.

Also, very few people fully understand and respect life unless they've had a close encounter with death, very few people fully understand and respect death unless they've had a close encounter with life. ;)

Hamar Fox
Wednesday, October 12th, 2011, 11:52 PM
First is that I dislike the criticism of humanity as being too judgemental. I find it's mostly used by those with ugly, depraved lifestyles who incessantly rail against what has ever been seen as right by society. I know you're a libertarian so you'll no doubt disagree with me here, but a healthy society needs to have social stigma directed against antisocial behavior, which leads me into something more on topic.

I think our differences on the nature of society are going to be an obstacle to reaching an agreement on this. If anything, I see typical reactions to suicide as a window, maybe the window, into the shaky foundations of civilisation and the supposed bonds between man and man. I haven't found anything that more clearly portrays the inherent schadenfreude in our attitude toward one another. But I think I really need to explain what I've experienced before I explain the whys, so I'm going to have to respond to your post a bit backwards.


I also feel you're hyperbolizing the judgement passed on suicides, because, in my experience, it's been quite the opposite, where there's an overwhelming influx of feigned sympathy for the person, even if that person was an absolute bastard for severely damaging the lives of whomever they left behind.

Believe me, there was no hyperbole whatsoever. I've always been intrigued by the human condition. In my late teens I ran a whole bunch of informal studies (and by that I mean I was dicking around, but for a purpose) out of sheer curiosity about what people really are underneath all the pretense. These usually consisted merely in visiting a site, writing X on my profile, and waiting for the responses to X. There was a complete series of these, but the one thing that always struck me was the peculiar hate I received when 'X' was 'I'm feeling down and thinking about killing myself'. It was unbridled. There was an unfathomably high ratio of insults, mocking, encouragements to follow through with my threats, etc., to sympathetic responses (which were often nil). And, yes, I tried it on a whole different bunch of sites: formal ones, informal ones, public, private, professional, casual, British, American, etc. My experience was always essentially the same, with degree of anonymity being pretty much the only variable.

I've noticed traces of this attitude in real life, although nowhere near as extreme. The phenomenon of baiting crowds, to me, shows it's not just an internet thing, and that I was tapping into something real in the human psyche. It's not unrare to hear the 'coward's way out' line in everyday life, but, as I say, you don't see the full brunt of it in polite society. Religious groups tend to be more open about their lack of sympathy in public and outside of anonymity, but online or in private there's no such ecclesiastical distinction, and I'll give my theory on that below.


The problem with suicide is that it almost always has a negative impact, as most people--even the most lonely--have relationships of substance with other people. Those who commit suicide either don't see how (i.e. they don't realize there are people who care about them and will be devastated by their death) or they just don't have a modicum of concern for how those people might feel if they do kill themselves. The former are generally the teenagers and young adults who feel alienated from the world, and the latter are those who usually have a family, abuse one substance or another, and don't care to live life any longer, and it's this latter group that comprises most of the suicides I've encountered in real life and epitomizes the selfish and irresponsible nature of suicide. The brilliant mind that decides to kill themselves because of utter isolation and despair is a rarity.

There's a whole host of reasons why people choose to kill themselves, but I honestly believe our reaction is unconnected to any of those specifics (except the 'honourable'/'dishonourable' distinction, which, again, I'll come to later). And this, I think, is where I need to sketch a picture of how I see society. I think society, or civilisation, is an artificial throwing together of autonomous and highly selfish subjects that spurn each other's existence, but for the sake of greasing the wheels of everyday interaction, and in consideration of the fact that the pros of a truce (however uneasy it may be) between a man and his neighbours far outweigh the cons, we learn to dissimulate our true feelings for each other very effectively. But we don't expunge these feelings, they don't abate, not even partially -- they linger on, ever bubbling beneath the surface of our relations with others. They continually ache to express themselves, and wherever the opportunity arises (i.e. when free of the risk of such consequences as they were originally suppressed in order to avoid), they do. We see true, natural humanity in children. The cruelty we observe in them isn't lost on entry to adulthood. We don't learn to be moral: we learn to appear to be moral. It's all fragile artifice, and easily gives way to a much darker human underbelly in any kind of private exchange. In short, where there's no motivation for kindness (as in preserving a reputation), the dark forces usually working beneath the surface of human interaction dominate.

By no means all, but many, delight in the misfortune of others. We especially resent having to feign upset and concern for others, and feigned, I agree with you, is what most of the time it is. I've spent a bit of time wondering why it is that suicide garners more contempt than, say, the victim of an accidental death. I think the main reason is that in accident the victim, although annoying us by making us feign pity, isn't directly responsible for his lot. We can't hold him accountable for being hit by a bus or eaten by a Chinaman, so we give him a touch more slack. The suicide victim, however, is the direct cause of the type of thing that really gets under our skin: having to strain ourselves in squeezing out a false emotion. Of course, there's also the possibility that people just love to rub salt in the wound, out of pure malice, or perhaps that need to exert some kind of (profound) influence over another to redress the complete impotence we feel in real life. But I don't think this more obvious theory explains why a terminal patient would receive less scorn than someone threatening suicide (although believe me, they get some -- any kind of perceived request for understanding or sympathy is bound to meet with at least some scorn).

I also don't think it's fair to say Christianity is the cause of most attitudes to suicide, as some have suggested, although I understand it has a cultural impact; rather it's probably just seized upon as a convenient pretext to express what in others is usually bottled up. I think that actually explains a lot of the characteristics of the devoutly religious, to be honest. Their religion and its sanctions serve as an excuse for the release of less than desirable traits that nonetheless exist in us all and are constantly seeking justification.


If that makes me judgemental, fine, but I will never condone suicide as long as we still have a social structure built on our intimate relationships with other people.

My post is a lot longer than I wanted it to be. I wanted to add a bunch of sub-clauses and disclaimers to allay the (understandable) impression of being a rabid misanthrope. Everything I said above is exaggeration. I really just wanted to get a certain point across, which wouldn't have been made in less than three million words if I'd constantly introduced counter-arguments. Obviously, most people aren't walking around with a burning hatred for everyone they see, and many people genuinely do care for others, even people they don't know. I just wanted to illustrate the tendencies that I believe exist in us as a species, and the reasons we can be quite shockingly callous about things. I also don't believe it's truly inherent in us. Violence and cruelty are, yes. But I believe in a small communal gathering we can genuinely have a naturally positive disposition toward one another. I think living in too large a community, a global one nowadays, is unnatural and creates the kind of indifference to or hatred of others that makes us not want to be inconvienced with thinking about their problems.

I know I could have made my replies more pertinent to your own points, but I just wanted to clear up why I thought it was ugliness and why I think it exists. I'm making no judgements about you or human nature as such.

Feyn
Friday, October 14th, 2011, 02:24 PM
First of all i must say i find it interesting what a lifely discussion that toppic has sparked pretty quick ! It seems everybody here has a pretty strong position on the subject !


@ Sigurd :

QUOTE:"Um, no. I don't think there's something particularly "noble" in walking into a group of civilians and then blowing oneself up holding the unarmed crowd for unknowing collaterals."

I think you should read my post again, i clearly made the distinction between suicide bombers attacking soldiers and s.b. attacking civilians, condemning the latter (though american smartbombs in the second gulf war alone killed way more innocent bystanders and civillians then all suicide bombers combined since that tactic became popular after world war II,)

QUOTE:"One surely has to differentiate between suicide bombers who attack soldiers in a war and those who attack inncocent civilians sometimes even kids. The latter is surely to be condemned but the first isnt any less noibler because you hate their goals."


You seemed not to differentiate at all in your post between the 2 ways, and simply condemning all suicide bombers. Strapping a bomb to your body and blow yourself up is a desperate way to fight a war, but if you look at what happens in the midle east one can at least understand why they do it. The jews are killing the palaestine (i hope its written correct ^^)people. Its a slow genocide down there. I clearly condemn attacking civilians that way. but i also condemn what the israeli do. Its not only the soldiers fighting in that war. Also the civillians do a lot of damage with their illegal settlements and other action. So while i condemn it, i can also understand why they attack civilians.

StoneCold
Saturday, November 26th, 2011, 04:39 PM
When it comes to suicide the japanese got it right: my view on valid suicide is the same that aplies to seppuku.

That is, a) when its a matter of honour; b) to avoid being captured by enemies.

Myself, I would consider suicide in the case of terminal diseases (like cancer), after I left mundane obligations settled. Its not honorable to rot until death like catholic morale says - and that is a matter in wich I'm in disaccord with the Holy Church (I'm sure I would burn in hell for this, but I would do it anyway).

Kauz R. Waldher
Saturday, November 26th, 2011, 06:37 PM
Suicide bombers are some brave mothers. THAT is conviction. I admire their dedication and sacrifice and any attack on Israel gets my full support. But as far as suicide not relating to war ... that's up to the individual. Do I think it's "wrong"? No. Would i do it? No. Well, maybe in a very extreme case of sorrow. Maybe I wouldn't even then? Suicidal people are odd. They are very selfish most of the time as well. They kill themselves in the basmeent of a loved ones house, or in their rooms so their mothers can find them .. or leave children behind without even a note. It's a weird phenomenon. People who are truly suicidal are ther ones who never talk about it. They just suddenly do it.

Ţoreiđar
Saturday, November 26th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Suicide bombers are some brave mothers. THAT is conviction.Conviction - surely, but bravery - not so much. Beside taking the step into the unknown realm of afterlife, there is not much bravery involved in merely sneaking up on a crowd of unsuspecting people (usually including women and children) and blowing oneself up, without any possibility of personal repurcussions and consequences, which usually are directed towards one's family and comrades instead.

If anything, I'd say it's a highly disrespectful and cowardly way of warfare.

Sindig_og_stoisk
Saturday, November 26th, 2011, 07:44 PM
The ancient Stoics believed that as one was allowed to decide matters of life, so one should be allowed to decide matters of death. This meant that to the Stoics one was allowed to decide to commit suicide.

However, the Stoics did not have any scientific knowledge of mental issues that could influence and derail one's thinking. Someone suffering from depression or having been bullied into a shadow of their former selves by family, schoolmates, co-workers or what not simply are not in a position to make such an important decision about their own life.

Their have been cases of honourable suicide in world history. The Japanese have already been mentioned, but the cases of Socrates, Seneca or Erwin Rommel also deserve to be mentioned. But I simply would not trust most modern people to decide if they should commit suicide or not. It makes much more sense to treat suicidal people not as being in the progress of making an sound, independent decision but instead treat them as being mentally unstable people in need of medical attention.

My girlfriend was at one point being treated for bipolar personality disorder. The medicine they gave her caused her to have suicidal thoughts. She had the good sense to not follow through on any of these thoughts but instead treat them as side effects. She insisted that her doctor provided her with a different kind of medicine and the suicidal thoughts vanished in a matter of days. She said that she could not recognise herself in those weird thoughts in her head and would never contemplate suicide herself. I for one am glad that no one allowed her to take these thoughts serious.

l-ucy
Saturday, November 26th, 2011, 10:54 PM
It depends on the situation really. If they are physically suffering and are in pain and request assisted suicide, then maybe yes. If they are depressed, I feel extremely sympathetic and I do not see it as cowardly but rather at a cry for much needed help.

Erlkönig
Sunday, November 27th, 2011, 05:21 AM
Suicide seems to me to be proactive natural selection. From a purely logical perspective if someone wants to die, they should; that mentality is not beneficial to a community.

At any rate someone once said "Death comes easy, Life comes hard", the nobility of suicide is overrated, only those who fear death would consider otherwise.

Kauz R. Waldher
Sunday, November 27th, 2011, 05:32 AM
Conviction - surely, but bravery - not so much. Beside taking the step into the unknown realm of afterlife, there is not much bravery involved in merely sneaking up on a crowd of unsuspecting people (usually including women and children) and blowing oneself up, without any possibility of personal repurcussions and consequences, which usually are directed towards one's family and comrades instead.

If anything, I'd say it's a highly disrespectful and cowardly way of warfare.

I didnt mean that it's barve to kill innocents. When I made my comment, I was not considering motive. I was just thinking about the actual "planning" part of it. To die in battle in the heat of the moment is truly marvelous .. but to calmly strap a bomb to yourself knowing it's going to turn you to crumbs is pretty brave. If not insane ...

Powmia
Thursday, March 29th, 2012, 05:41 PM
There are some very good posts in here, it seems everythings been said that I would have mentioned.

The thing I never understood was why suicide is considered a sin?
I personally think religion got this subject wrong, especially Dantes Inferno (unless it was because they were already in a hell?? and on the other hand not all people in hell/inferno were there voluntarily...)

Unity Mitford
Friday, March 30th, 2012, 07:00 PM
On Suicide Bombers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-VkW-cjlME ;)

renownedwolf
Friday, March 30th, 2012, 09:13 PM
Only to alleviate unnecessary suffering or in a situation when it is honourable to do so to prevent secrets etc falling into the hands of the enemy. Sometimes 'suicide' is a sacrifice (and not in the crazy Islam way).

Dvergr
Friday, March 30th, 2012, 10:42 PM
I support every version of it except the killing other people part to get yourself killed. In this aspect I don't consider dying by revolution or war to be considered suicide, I am talking just simply killing yourself for whatever reason. First and foremost, you are going to die anyway. I say it is better you die healthy by your own hands then in distress by a disease or another. At least then you get to chose your circumstances that you go, can say your goodbyes, know where you came from and perhaps where you are going.

As it is mentioned in the Havamal, it is no better to just grow grey. But for the sake of your immediate family, take life into consideration. If a mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, sibling or close family pet wouldn't be the same without you then think first. The problem today is that you cannot make people understand, if you want to openly discuss this option.

The Horned God
Sunday, April 1st, 2012, 08:14 PM
JlULTovh9mo

I concur with most of Schopenhauer's thoughts on suicide. The only point on which I differ with him is that he refuses to place any limits upon the range of circumstances within which a person is ethically entitled to commit suicide. According to Schopenhauer a man has at all times a complete right to take his own life regardless of his state of health or of whoever might be depending on him for guidance or support.

Powmia
Sunday, April 1st, 2012, 10:51 PM
Only to alleviate unnecessary suffering or in a situation when it is honourable to do so to prevent secrets etc falling into the hands of the enemy. Sometimes 'suicide' is a sacrifice (and not in the crazy Islam way).

Thank you for pointing this out. I now think sacrifice is the difference. :-O

liveevildevil
Thursday, April 5th, 2012, 06:18 PM
1.) Morally sound and potentially indispensable, even honourable suicide: Killing oneself to be one less mouth to feed, killing oneself to prevent continued life from acting as involuntary betrayal to one's comrades, sacrificing oneself for the benefit of those around one.

2.) Morally understandable or ritual suicide: Being terminally ill, or as dictated by an honour codex of a people, profession, group in a given situation - including a religious reason.

3.) Morally ambivalent, but not comdemnatory suicide: Seeing no quality in life and acting to pre-empt a situation in which a #2-suicide is called for. Fleeing from a difficult situation and opting that free death is a favourable choice to living enslavement.

4.) Condemnable or non-understandable suicide: Choosing to take the easy route out. Picking the "seeing no quality" option with remaining obligations in life (such as dependent children, etc.) Blowing oneself up in an act of misguided holy wars; or of course the classic, killing oneself for the heck of it, etc.

1) - "sacrificing yourself" vs 4) - "misguided holy war" ... I suppose a Jihadist would put himself in category 1, while you would put him in #4... but who's to judge what's correct ? Kamikaze-pilots... 1 or 4 ?

3) - "fleeing from a difficult situation/enslavement" vs 4) "take the easy route out" ... aren't these very much the same ? Under which category would Adolf Hitler be placed for instance ?

..and anyways... "easy way out".. ? how common is that ? could you give an example of where suicide is the "easy way out" ? I suppose Hitler is ONE example.. but if it REALLY was so easy to pull the trigger I'm not sure of...

..most classical despair-suicides of the western world are committed in temporary insanity.. that's my belief...... where I sit now, I can't think of ONE example of suicide truly being a "easy way out"....

psycheexplorer
Thursday, April 5th, 2012, 07:03 PM
I used to be pretty close to dying because I just felt so misplaced on this planet. As I got older I started understanding that the problem wasn't me but the rest of world. So now instead, I feel a need to change everything in this meaningless place. Most of the suicidal people I've known were like this and if only they'd have stuck around and grew up a bit more we'd have more powerful warriors on our side. Then again, maybe natural selection has got rid of some unintelligent people who just couldn't grow up? I'm a big fan of letting nature do it's thing. When people try to curb a healthy and sometimes violent evolution do we start seeing problems.

EQ Fighter
Thursday, April 5th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Suicide is like any murder IMHO grouped into several groups which should be judged by those around them differently, graded on the level at which the choice of ending one's life prematurely contributes to any benefit for those who will be around to mourn:

First and Fore most Murder and Killing are NOT the same thing.
Murder is a premeditated act of killing or a crime, tolerate that in your society and you will not have a society long.

Killing is ambiguous act of ending a life. It can be Honourable if the individual who is being killed is a threat to others around them, IE they are a criminal in the "Moral Since" this would exclude the "Political Criminal".

In any case Suicide is an act taken by a mentally unbalanced person, and to view it as courage is complete stupidity. For one Courageous people SOLVE problems they DO NOT run from them, which is what suicide is in the most part.

Point by Point



1.) Morally sound and potentially indispensable, even honourable suicide: Killing oneself to be one less mouth to feed, killing oneself to prevent continued life from acting as involuntary betrayal to one's comrades,sacrificing oneself for the benefit of those around one.

Well the "One Less Mouth to Feed" is a typical cop-out taken by population demographics individuals. Refer to the Above Courageous people SOLVE problems they DO NOT run from them, Meaning you invest what ever resources are necessary to solve the population problem not whine about the fact that it exist.



sacrificing oneself for the benefit of those around one.
This is acceptible if done for a viable outcome, but it DOES NOT qualify as Suicide



2.) Morally understandable or ritual suicide: Being terminally ill, or as dictated by an honour codex of a people, profession, group in a given situation - including a religious reason.

Ritual=Stupidity and uninformed action with no real purpose. That pretty much invalidates that one.

Being terminally ill is a possible valid reason for Suicide, assuming it is fully agreed on by the participant and has been determined that there is no other option by a qualified position. This would also assume that the "One Less Mouth to Feed" nonsense is not in play here by the establishment.



3.) Morally ambivalent, but not comdemnatory suicide: Seeing no quality in life and acting to pre-empt a situation in which a #2-suicide is called for. Fleeing from a difficult situation and opting that free death is a favourable choice to living enslavement.

Agreed in the since both are options of the Mentally unbalanced and the Gutless. Not to be commended. Live Slaves rebuild societies, dead heroes do nothing. Also as a general historical Rule once the Slave, next the Slave Master. Slavery is not a reason for suicide. So more times than not the descendants of slaves will outlive the slave master.



4.) Condemnable or non-understandable suicide: Choosing to take the easy route out. Picking the "seeing no quality" option with remaining obligations in life (such as dependent children, etc.) Blowing oneself up in an act of misguided holy wars; or of course the classic, killing oneself for the heck of it, etc.

Well you are right on the first part but maybe not on the second.

Once again suicide for personal benefit is a cowards way out. Blowing ones self up in a "Holy War" though is an act of war, and is not part of this designation, as far as I can see.

And in the end if it deals a blow to the enemy there is a benefit for the majority you are fighting for. As things stand, one day whites may have to be doing the same thing to fight a Muslim or Globalist Establishments, so don’t prematurely knock it.

Sehnsucht
Thursday, April 5th, 2012, 08:16 PM
I always wonder if the people that say suicide is cowardly have ever truly pondered about taking their own life, or tried to? I would not say it is cowardly at all.

I've particularly admired the Viet Minh volunteers who would suicide bomb French tanks, by running at and ramming a stick with explosives at the end into the tank. I don't think somebody sacrificing their life for faith, an ideal or nation is necessarily crazy and definitely not cowardly.

The argument that suicide is selfish has always baffled me. Think about the others it would upset? And the people that say they are angry with people for killing themselves for the upset it caused? I think the selfishness works both ways there, and if somebody has enough justification to kill themselves and upset those they hold dear they probably have good reason to do so.

Insanity, psychosis and delusions may be a cause of suicide, so I think there should be an effort to stop these people carrying it out if they truly want to live despite their illness that sometimes makes them feel otherwise. But one does not need to be insane, or 'mentally ill' to commit suicide.

Curiosity for the world, history and the chances of life improving are what stops me thinking of death during my worst lows.

I do not see any moral wrong with suicide in general.

liveevildevil
Thursday, April 5th, 2012, 08:52 PM
I do not see any moral wrong with suicide in general.

At least not in the ordinary moral sense.
What is referred to as "selfish suicide" is first and foremost a sin against oneself.

As it is written:

"Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.
The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory. He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings. "
- AL II,73-74

And... why rush? ....

“Life’s greatest gift is the freedom it leaves you to step out of it whenever you choose.”
― André Breton, Anthology of Black Humor

“The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Hrafn Odinnsson
Saturday, April 7th, 2012, 04:06 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutons
According to Valerius Maximus and Florus (who both lived much later), the Teuton King, Teutobod, was taken in irons after their defeat. By the conditions of the surrender, three hundred married women were to be handed over in slavery to the Romans. When the Teuton matrons heard of this stipulation, they first begged the consul that they might be set apart to minister in the temples of Ceres and Venus; then, when they failed to obtain their request and were removed by the lictors, they slew their children and next morning were all found dead in each other's arms having strangled each other in the night. This act passed into Roman legends of Germanic heroism.

OneWolf
Saturday, April 7th, 2012, 04:14 AM
Honestly,if my back was against the wall or if I ever hit rock bottom,I would consider suicide as a way out.I was always taught that it was a "Sin' to consider such an act but I find it much more appealing than wasting away!

Sĺgverksarbetaren
Saturday, April 7th, 2012, 07:18 PM
I failed to commit suicide once which caused a lot of stigma. I don`t think that it should be any stigma concerning suicide, but i still don`t promote it.

Btw, the mayans had a suicide goddess, Ixtab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtab

liveevildevil
Saturday, April 7th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Honestly,if my back was against the wall or if I ever hit rock bottom,I would consider suicide as a way out.I was always taught that it was a "Sin' to consider such an act but I find it much more appealing than wasting away!

Aye.. but didn't you see my quotes above, of Nietzsche amongst others..?.. the THOUGHT of it should be comfort enough.... as long as we still don't have the sci-fi-possibility of putting your brain in an "eternal-agony-box" the suicide-escape is always just a single gun-shot or knife-cut away.... and it's a one-way-ticket.. so why rush ? ..... if you're going to kill yourself anyways... why not just live through some days/months/years of masochism first.... you might even end up happy after all.... ;)

The Horned God
Saturday, April 7th, 2012, 08:04 PM
I failed to commit suicide once which caused a lot of stigma. I don`t think that it should be any stigma concerning suicide, but i still don`t promote it.


I'd be grateful if you could describe your frame of mind leading up to your suicide attempt. Were you experiencing extreme anguish or fear, for instance fear of the future? Was there an overwhelming sense of being trapped by your circumstances? Or were you in more of a depression where you just felt "there wasn't any point" in continuing to live? I'm interested in what drives someone to attempt to take their own life.



Btw, the mayans had a suicide goddess, Ixtab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtab

Ixtab would accompany such suicides to paradise (thus playing the role of a psychopomp). Here, joined by people who died as soldiers or as sacrificial victims, by women who died in childbirth and by members of the priesthood, they enjoyed a delectable existence rewarded with delicious food and drink and resting under the shade of a pleasant tree, Yaxche, free from all want.

It's a conception of suicide amazingly at odds with that handed down to us through the christian tradition.

Personally I hope I never feel seriously tempted to take my own life. However, if at some point in the future I find myself experiencing extreme agony either mental (Alzheimer's disease, serious psychosis, untreatable depression) or physical (cancer treatment, etc etc) and can look forward only to more of the same then I would want the option of choosing to end my own suffering to be available to me.

Feyn
Sunday, April 8th, 2012, 06:03 AM
I think euthanasia should be made an option for the terminally ill. If it's acceptable to gradually administer morphine to dying patients, in order to alleviate their pain, although it has a double effect, in that it may precipitate their death, it should also be acceptable to give them a morphine OD from the beginning, and let them die with a bit more dignity if they so wish.






In many cases they DO give them an OD morphin, but in a way that the doctors etc. can officially claim it to be solely to manage the pain and not to euthanize the patient, since that is not allowed here. But i know many cases where doctors fully knowing gave to much morphin. Inofficially they talk to the patient, sometimes they talk a bit in code, but its very clear that both parties understand they are talking about euthanasia, but still in a way that the doctor always can deny that. Our laws force us to handle it this way, which is sad, downright nuts if you ask me. Euthanasia happens daily hundredfold in every western country, yet always illegally.
One of the main argument against euthansia from the opponents is that they fear that old people would be rushed to to end their life simply because the people looking after them want to get rid of them, which i find a pretty stupid argument. Its about time we face the fact that euthanasia is already happening, and we need to get it out of this grey area of pain management, so we can finally have euthanasia like in holland or the suisse, where they have special care facilities for this, with psychologically trained professionals to help people deal with this situation in a humane way with all the help they need !!! We should stop finding excuses and deal with the reality we have, which is way worse then real, official euthanasia !

Ilva
Sunday, April 8th, 2012, 08:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutons
According to Valerius Maximus and Florus (who both lived much later), the Teuton King, Teutobod, was taken in irons after their defeat. By the conditions of the surrender, three hundred married women were to be handed over in slavery to the Romans. When the Teuton matrons heard of this stipulation, they first begged the consul that they might be set apart to minister in the temples of Ceres and Venus; then, when they failed to obtain their request and were removed by the lictors, they slew their children and next morning were all found dead in each other's arms having strangled each other in the night. This act passed into Roman legends of Germanic heroism.

That makes perfect sense to me. One's life would no longer be one's own if enslaved.
I'm sure those totally miserable wild animals kept captive in zoos and circuses would have welcomed the chance to die fighting rather that live a thoroughly reduced existence as an exhibit.

Sĺgverksarbetaren
Friday, April 13th, 2012, 09:18 PM
I'd be grateful if you could describe your frame of mind leading up to your suicide attempt. Were you experiencing extreme anguish or fear, for instance fear of the future? Was there an overwhelming sense of being trapped by your circumstances? Or were you in more of a depression where you just felt "there wasn't any point" in continuing to live? I'm interested in what drives someone to attempt to take their own life.



It's a conception of suicide amazingly at odds with that handed down to us through the christian tradition.

Personally I hope I never feel seriously tempted to take my own life. However, if at some point in the future I find myself experiencing extreme agony either mental (Alzheimer's disease, serious psychosis, untreatable depression) or physical (cancer treatment, etc etc) and can look forward only to more of the same then I would want the option of choosing to end my own suffering to be available to me.

There where many reasons for why i tried to commit suicide (and still wants to, occasionally). I don`t respect myself and who i am, my character and so on, but i would say that the most important reason is that i suffer from OCD, Obsessive-compulsive disorder, a mental disorder that pretty much ruins my life.

Svanhild
Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 12:51 PM
I agree completely. Look at Hitler - rather than being promenaded about and letting the liberal allies make a pony show of his trials, he kept some dignity and honor even in his defeat. Of course, this is only my opinion, but it's how I feel.
Scattered instances like Hitler or Goebbels were different cases and not comparable to normal suicides of the boy or girl next door. They knew that their life will end either way. Their only remaining choice was a) 'End life by myself' or b) 'Getting executed by others'.

With all the background info in mind they took the right decision.

Svanhild
Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 01:05 PM
I forget to add that my opinion of suicide has changed. As a matter of fact, I thought of suicide as something 'heroically' and a 'darking enterprise' of people who lost everything and see no sense in life. But that was just naive, premature thinking. Shortly after New Year's Day I was confronted with the suicide message of a girl I get to know on the Internet and met in RL at one point. I knew she had lots of serious problems and troubles in her life but I still had the impression that she will learn to cope with it and surmounts the difficulties as she grows older and gains help from professionals. Despite everything she had some achievable bright outlook, people who cared for her and great potential. When I heard that she jumped off a large dam in sheer desperation I was shocked and needed to change my opinion of suicide in the subsequent days.

What if we live just once? Should we throw away everything for the uncertainty of nothingness?

If there's a choice between 'To live on and keep fighting' and 'Give up everything' then the first choice is the advantageous option. There you have some prospect and own influence on what happens in future. The latter option gives you no influence, no options and no hope.

Schmetterling
Tuesday, March 7th, 2017, 02:13 AM
It totally depends on the context. Suicide is more understandable in someone who has lived his life and is suffering from pancreatic cancer or some other terminal disease in old age and who wants to go in peace and with dignity instead of having their ordeal prolonged by machinery. They lived their lives and aren't comparable to a teenager who has a whole life ahead of him but takes it because bullying has become unbearable. I don't think suicide is a coward's way out but a choice when someone feels they have no other choice. It may be selfish or it may be altruistic, depending on the context. For example if someone has murderous instincts and can't help themselves and they decide to take their lives because they are too dangerous for society, I won't judge them the same as someone who does it impulsively, not caring what they leave behind.

Wulfaz
Tuesday, March 7th, 2017, 10:50 AM
The Suicide like as the Homicide too is a sin against the Lord God, because only God can give life and only God can take off life. Hence the persons who made suicide, th one makes a sin agaisnt God, a horrible sin, hence this people are in the Hell and they never entrance through Saint Peter's Gate. Well, it is the Christian interpretation, I never burn anybody who does not believe this.

Catterick
Wednesday, March 8th, 2017, 02:39 PM
Jack Kervorkian opposed abortion whilst he performed euthanasia on the consenting: seems fine to me.

Leliana
Wednesday, March 8th, 2017, 09:09 PM
Shortly after New Year's Day I was confronted with the suicide message of a girl I get to know on the Internet and met in RL at one point. I knew she had lots of serious problems and troubles in her life but I still had the impression that she will learn to cope with it and surmounts the difficulties as she grows older and gains help from professionals. Despite everything she had some achievable bright outlook, people who cared for her and great potential. When I heard that she jumped off a large dam in sheer desperation I was shocked and needed to change my opinion of suicide in the subsequent days.
You're talking about Inese, right? It shattered Apricity for weeks. Such a sad story, I experienced that wrecking, fucking feelings back then. :/ The mobbers are still out there.


I think that suicide is not cowardice per se. Example: Both of my parents told me that they would commit suicide if the incurable illness dementia would crawl into their head. As their child I must understand that. They are right. Life has lost all meaning when you lay in a bed with your soul and personality switched off, spittling salvia all day long. Everyone has the choice to not become a soulless body in the future. Dementia doesn't come over night. It takes years to take over the head.

I'd cry rivers if my parents commit suicide. But behind the desperation I'd understand their reasoning. And I'd do the same in the distant future, a future I hope that will never come. :|

Panda
Wednesday, October 18th, 2017, 11:29 AM
Well, personally, if I were to ever commit suicide (will never happen) but it would be because I am ready to give up. However, I may have down moments and all but even cutting myself as some people do is insane to me. I always go by the rule of not giving up because life is precious. Yet, I do know more depressed people are likely to do this and for them it is tougher so they need support. I actually know of a girl who tried to cut her wrists to kill herself and other attempts. This started in high school for her because she became depressed always thinking she doesn't fit it as is fat. However, she is very pretty but her self esteem/ self worth is poor and she feels not good enough. She is still depressed, is anorexic, and closed in. We try to help her best we can since she feels no one cares or values her and she wants out.

Idis
Wednesday, October 18th, 2017, 11:44 AM
Suicide is a sad topic, however I believe in one's right to do with their life as they will. It is one of our basic freedoms. Naturally, we should try to prevent the suicide of those who are just going through a bad time and offer them support. The terminally ill and those living with immense suffering should have the right to die with dignity however.

Siebenbürgerin
Thursday, October 19th, 2017, 06:33 AM
I'm viewing suicide as a sin against God and nature. We were given this life, we didn't decide on our own to come into the world, so taking out life is not a granted right. God and nature decide when it's the time to leave this world. Peoples who think of suicide are often just needing a hand in help, the suicide attempt is a cry for help and attention. Yes, we've many obstacles in our life and challenged with loss and depression, but we're fighters. We've to pull through. Suicide is against our natural survival skills.

LillyCaterina
Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018, 01:59 AM
All I can say is, this is an issue that strikes too close to home for me to be able to discuss. But, please don't blame those who die by their own hand. We really don't understand the kind of suffering they must have been trying to endure before they just couldn't take it anymore.

Finnish Swede
Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018, 10:04 PM
Finns are one of the happiest people in Europe but Finland is also leading country (in Europe) what comes numbers of suicides. Strange?

Most of the suicides are done by single young adult men or younger middle age men.

Finns (like their neighbours Scandinavians) are one of the least religious people in Europe. So here God issues (or morals...like mentioned earlier) means next to nothing to them (those who will end to make suicide).

They do it if they got bothered/dissapointed life too deeply ... life/living does not feel good at all and future will not look any better.

Gareth Lee Hunter
Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018, 10:36 PM
Finns are one of the happiest people in Europe but Finland is also leading country (in Europe) what comes numbers of suicides. Strange?

Most of the suicides are done by single young adult men or younger middle age men.

Finns (like their neighbours Scandinavians) are one of the least religious people in Europe. So here God issues (or morals...like mentioned earlier) means next to nothing to them (those who will end to make suicide).

They do it if they got bothered/dissapointed life too deeply ... life/living does not feel good at all and future will not look any better.

It's called existentialist depression. I was deeply troubled by it during my teens and early twenties. Questions such as what is life all about. Why am I here, etc., combined with self-doubt plagued my troubled mind... And yes, I did contemplate suicide on more than one deeply depressed occasion.

jagdmesser
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 05:46 PM
Drink, Debt, Drugs, can’t talk, lack of support and help from own family. . .

Job, assets, relationship all serious affected by the interplay and the downward spiral increases.

No one sees it coming.

Ultimate act of selfishness.

Absolute Devastation for partner, children, parents, relatives, friends, associates, community and everyone.

All these, never forget it or get over it.

One can get through and over everything except terminal illness.

There is no justification for taking one’s own life.

Alice
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 06:30 PM
What a heartbreaking topic. :( The suicide rate is relatively high in the country where I live, and most victims are men, of course. Recently, I read that nearly 80% of suicides in the European Union concern males.

I think many who die by suicide have diminished culpability, especially if they're mentally ill, frightened or have suffered some very traumatic event. But if suicide is done with malice and freely chosen, it is gravely immoral.

schwab
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 06:46 PM
I would ad a lack of any spirituality. Lack of love by anyone around. Criticism by others is deadly.

Gareth Lee Hunter
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 07:25 PM
Treating potential suicide victims involves much more than confining them to mental health facilities, psychoanalyzing them, and pumping them full of pharmaceuticals with unpredictable side effects that suppress problems as an alternative to taking the time to actually listening to patients so as to be able to effectively address the issues that created the suicidal situation.

Society definitely needs to shoulder much of the responsibility for creating many of these tragic cases of suicide.

"Suicide Statistics

While this data is the most accurate we have, we estimate the numbers to be higher. Stigma surrounding suicide leads to underreporting, and data collection methods critical to suicide prevention need to be improved. Learn how you can become an advocate. (https://afsp.org/our-work/advocacy/become-an-advocate/)


Additional Facts About Suicide in the US
(https://afsp.org/our-work/advocacy/become-an-advocate/)



The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.
The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.
In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.
On average, there are 129 suicides per day.
White males accounted for 77.97% of suicide deaths in 2017.
In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.


https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/)

Finnish Swede
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 08:30 PM
What a heartbreaking topic. :( The suicide rate is relatively high in the country where I live, and most victims are men, of course. Recently, I read that nearly 80% of suicides in the European Union concern males.

I think many who die by suicide have diminished culpability, especially if they're mentally ill, frightened or have suffered some very traumatic event. But if suicide is done with malice and freely chosen, it is gravely immoral.

True. Still Finland has made good progress:

Numbers of suicides in Finland 1970 to 2014

Men = blue.
Women = red.
https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload//w_1198,h_674,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_auto/13-3-8628803.png


The same bit other ways. Numbers of suicides per 100 000 inhabitants (2017)

From up to down
Lithuania
Latvia
Hungary
Belgium
Finland
Germany
Sweden
Italy
Greek
Cypros

https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload//w_1198,h_674,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_auto/13-3-10313839.png


As we see Finland starts to approach the average level of Europe. That is simply result of great hard work (society). Still the risks are there (dark winters, culture of keeping problems inside, habits to drink etc.).

One of the most saddest suicides are those which happens on the roads ... one will drive a car against lorry/truck (some truck drivers have needed to change their job because of becoming traumatized) or even worse ... against another car .... killing/injured other totally innocent people.

ravenseyes
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 09:54 PM
It's a personal choice whether to end one's life. I hold no judgement.

Uwe Jens Lornsen
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 11:07 PM
I have no thoughts on suicide anymore .

Formerly I had been no friend of people committing suicide ,
but that had been during a time , when Germany still had been
somewhat "German" .

Germany is not real anymore .

Things have changed drastically during the past ten to fourty years .





A recent report from a Swiss newspaper citing the WHO , with a list of Top-10 suicide countries :
https://www.blick.ch/baa/10-laender-mit-der-hoechsten-suizidrate-der-welt-id15113387.html


Guayana / Guyana : average 44 ; 4× world's average ; 70% males ; easy access to insect killing poisons

North Corea / Korea : average 38,5 ; whole families commit suicide fearing prison

South Corea / Korea : average 28,9 ; social pressure and family problems

Sri Lanka / Ceylon : average 28,8 ; no apparent reason

Lithuania : average 28,2 ; missing social and financial prospects

Surinam / Suriname : male average 44 ; female average 12

Mosambic / Mozambique : average 27 ; high AIDS/HIV quota

Tansania : average 24,9 ; increased at pupils and students

Nepal : average 24,9 ; female's average 20

Cazachstan / Kasachstan : young females in the 16-19 years range ; 3,2% of world's suicides ; average 23,8

Kauriraris
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 11:16 PM
100% support suicide. Life is misery and we have the right to end it should we choose to do so.

Sigurdsson
Saturday, February 9th, 2019, 11:17 PM
It's not a good way to go. I feel that a lot of the reasons why, especially men, commit suicide is because of the feeling of purposelessness, lack of community and lack of love, to name a few. Those feelings all culminate into depression and other mental health issues, which are, it seems, on the rise as of late.

Uwe Jens Lornsen
Sunday, February 10th, 2019, 12:14 AM
100% support suicide. Life is misery and we have the right to end it should we choose to do so.

But people should then define some kind of "enemy" , and make some kind of "final stand" : Amok !


We all are aware , that people are "replaceable" by immigrants , and immigrants are replaceable , too .

Each dead immigrant will be replaced by another immigrant : Life has no real worth anymore ,
nothing will last in future .

The future will be death anyway , so if one commits suicide , he or she should not do it silently !

Alice
Sunday, February 10th, 2019, 06:02 AM
True. Still Finland has made good progress:


It is excellent that progress is being made!


The same bit other ways. Numbers of suicides per 100 000 inhabitants (2017)

From up to down
Lithuania
Latvia
Hungary
Belgium
Finland
Germany
Sweden
Italy
Greek
Cypros


In Belgium, I wonder if the suicide rate higher in Flanders, as opposed to Wallonia. Was it Chlodovech who mentioned something along those lines?



As we see Finland starts to approach the average level of Europe. That is simply result of great hard work (society). Still the risks are there (dark winters, culture of keeping problems inside, habits to drink etc.).


Finland has made tremendous strides in the area of mental health. :thumbup

Terminus
Sunday, February 10th, 2019, 07:33 AM
There is no justification for taking one’s own life.In war, better to die quickly than to be caught and tortured or paraded around in a spectacle.

Hitler suggested that a lover's quarrel could be a good reason.

Plotinus and Plato justified suicide when one could no longer be of service to the community. Undoubtedly there are still consequences even when justified in this manner.

jagdmesser
Sunday, February 10th, 2019, 01:23 PM
Causing one’s own death intentionally makes every related person curious to know the reason why he or she did it. I have though never lost somebody close due to suicide but still I have seen number of people left behind who are close to the person who committed suicide. The devastation, pain, anger, guilt and regret which I have seen in them are unexplainable. It’s obvious that if a person had taken such a big step he or she must be desperate to die, but the question is simply why? How much harder you try, you just can’t reach the actual reason if you are not aware of person’s feeling and physiology exactly. According to the major research work regarding the suicidal attempts, it is found that no matter what’s the age or race, how rich or poor the person is, is suffering from some strong emotional or mental disorder.

World Health Organization has reported that in past fifty years the suicide rate have increased by 60% almost. The percentage mainly comprises of teenagers and the people of around forty to forty-five years of age. China and India have the highest suicide rating. Well it’s clear and understood that suicide attempt is not the state of mind that is set overnight or the next day of a normal day. The problem must be lingering for so long in life and when it became unbearable, life is over. People always criticize the suicide attempts but nobody tries to figure out the reason. In my opinion it is the due combined personal and socioeconomic problems. Here we are providing you top 10 reasons why people commit suicide. You must help those people to manage their life in a good way, they needs your help, if they are facing any one of these 10 problems in their life:


10. Philosophical Desire To Die

Usually people commit suicide based on some reason that may be an illness or a problem, from which there is no hope of recovery or reprieve exists. But the people, who are not ill, depressed or involved in some big problem attempts a suicide it means they have a philosophical desire to die. They have a thought that they can shorten their life and can take control of their destiny by causing their own death early than written in fate. If such people have been evaluated by some professional physiologist they would definitely be categorized as a people with serious mental disorder.


9. Sexual Orientation

In teenage most of the kids have a chance to get aware of their sexuality in true terms as they have grown up have a relatively mature state of mind, hence it’s obvious there are complications. If someone realizes that he or she is a gay, lesbian or bisexual at this stage of life, it’s surely very difficult to admit and telling relatives and friends. At this point, in shame and complex the person can think of the easiest way to get rid off of this situation to end up his or her own life.

8. Domestic Abuse

Domestic abuse is one of the most common reasons of committing suicide in teenagers. They are physically and mentally abused by their own family members. The non-supportive behaviour of the family is the biggest disappointment and can have the damaging effect on person’s life. Another case can be if the person himself or herself is not the victim of the abuse but is a witness to such abuse on daily basis then this can also have a devastating effect on mind. Moreover if the person is treated in such a way that he or she feels demeaning can make a person to attempt suicide.


7. Bullying And Complexes

Bullying among friends is very common now a day. It is practiced in most of the high schools bit more than usual. The teenagers have to experience bullying, but some of the teens are already complex and sensitive about their personality. This bullying and pranking all the time beat their confidence and lower their self-esteem. They feel that they are not capable of anything and cannot do anything productive. This feeling keeps on lingering in their life and they find it meaningless and worthless. This ends up them in taking their own life. Parents and teachers should teach their children to ignore such comments before they join any social place.


6. Emotional Neglect

When parents are busy in their own lives they may have no time for their children. Especially teenage is such an age when children actually know the world. They may suffer from some sort of depression or some physical problems where they need their parents help and attention. If they are being ignored and forgotten all the time this may develop the feeling of loneliness in them. They may feel that their existence makes no difference in their parent’s life. This could be one of the most dangerous and worst reasons to commit suicide.


5. Depression

The most common reason to commit suicide is depression. Depression is the feeling always accompanied by hopelessness. The person is thinking all the time that everything would have been much better without me. The biggest issue is that person is thinking all this silently and planning suicide. The depression is always treatable. If any of your friend or relative or children is sharing something with you saying “I am depressed” just don’t ignore it or make fun of her or him at the problem. Support the depressed person and assure him/her that everything is fine. You can save a life by being helping and supportive in this way.


4. Drugs Abuse

The most common but unpredictable reason to attempt suicide is being impulsive which is mostly related to drugs addiction and alcohol. Here as well are two cases. First is when the addicted person is calm and sober he may develop the feeling of shame and regret. The sense of shame is genuine but this is no reason to be so emotional to commit suicide. If you know any person in such state you must not let him give away their life just in regret. The second case is that when an addicted person don’t have an access to the drugs anymore. In pain and in aggression he takes his life away. Something needs to be done to help such people in both the tough situations.

3. Mental Disorders

When person’s brain starts to work in some different orientation than usual the thoughts that came in mind usually leads to suicide. The different thoughts are due to the mental disorders such as depression, schizophrenia, bipolar illness in brain commands self-destruction. They feel that they are not the part of existing society and have no right to live. They feel frustrated from themselves. They feel trouble while adjusting for the society they live in. The mental disorders can be very severe and they need to be detected and treated at the very early stages otherwise the results are heartbreaking.

2. Sexual Abuse

The most common reason of suicide in teens is that grow up by being sexually abused. This is one of the main causes of being physically and emotionally damaged. Sexual abuse has forever and long lasting effect on one’s life. Anger, guilt and irritation become the part of the effected person. The unimaginable pain through which the person is going through leads her/him to take away her own life. The percentage of the rape victims is increasing in country such as India day by day. The hypocrisy of society and frustration of being abused can make someone attempt suicide easily.

1. Stress

Person who is stressed commits suicide to take pressure off once for all. It’s one of the top reasons why people commits suicide regardless of the fact to which age group person belongs to. If we talk about the teenagers the stress may be related to the good grades and marks in school exams, the teenage love breakups, picking up a career at the young age and many others, it can be. The pressure and stress is mostly increased by parents and family to make children live up to their standards ignoring the capacity, liking’s and capability of their own child.
In the same way the elders may be stressed due to the burden of family expenses and less income or may be due to some incurable illness. In all the situations the family support and attention can be the best treatment to get rid of the stress and can save lives.

Reasons People Commit Suicide - Top Ten List (http://yandex.ru/clck/jsredir?bu=231j&from=yandex.ru%3Bsearch%2F%3Bweb%3B%3B&text=&etext=2059.AsONy2JAtcTwJbwvIIu2hw4Vi9NpA UynupnYCxaMvnJ2OvUvP98loaqjlyaLhtbvZlGhY 4IzZUm96celQzjJuw.97394b848061e4de2ea39e 3808493b3919be1b00&uuid=&state=PEtFfuTeVD5kpHnK9lio9dFa2ePbDzX7fH _cbK-eu2V8J4cbFpzDXW9rYi7SZhqEJIq8fXhATr5ZDzT C0wt8G5NugjsS9BAsBeCvIwn5QlQ,&&cst=AiuY0DBWFJ5Hyx_fyvalFLFfOiIpZKkuWKuM iVL_0z28AblzcHUSfuja-jiqeyewI1kOxK415rE1FSwWIjXV5u-O39SeVyxF9TNLgaGbE9dMyGbSlY5Wtp7MU4AT0hA GQs1KtbgEoyrrliCUFMpdbYA7FOZCeAPuSqBGotJ X_5e9Wruq4BI4ArTR-LRYjsBUe-UXDL7SBmoZ93qHJDRdA0mKU2Tj-v2M2nOOcTvRRpJZbhb3nGZMrbmdVF_gWtokkzi87 PqOO1NzwZ1IpoRypAWEkvsLo6gabH31t3YljsIJX _xQyf-JfsXDHOtytCCluMPJ62iH-CHELhee2M__xcK4dS5_NyUFdLvELIIrtbixUADdp 9SbZvbUInsx2pO70qeeK1Q7aa1FSn6mRMrqFN8w0 rCpYCbINafx7xhzzLeRw9_dh1sbjfDkPXrE7JoM&data=UlNrNmk5WktYejY4cHFySjRXSWhXSUNjQnd aVUlvel9Zb2hfQnJRajBOakxHLW83MUdGekQ1Zml GLXEtQ0ljZEcwYUJ0MnJXdENfOHdXNTFsNmtJRVk xTUpOc3NrSW5URzBTQ3kyN0VWNWtWNXhDTWRsX0Z VUEVVc3FORW8xWVNFVnRjOEZsaDZ6RGNDVG5oTDB oNlJRLCw,&sign=c93d1ab415aece2a4f976e2b9b1b064e&keyno=0&b64e=2&ref=orjY4mGPRjk5boDnW0uvlrrd71vZw9kpsPc4 uoJkk1eJ4ROkfHTk3p7bJXJBizOAY9NCtjhmNmxa qPg6_DdFHJOkKiB2qEvlEXaz4Ovmnm4qWD03y1lM dKEkM6rdVasQ&l10n=ru&rp=1&cts=1549804326901&mc=4.74216111958126&hdtime=62096) 10 Feb 2019.



The whole establishment simply doesn't want to know.
A massive swath of public expenditure is today spent on the 'replacement' mass invasion.

ravenseyes
Sunday, February 10th, 2019, 05:00 PM
They forget and purposefully fail to mention suffering from disease such as a cancer or other such pain. I refuse to sit back judge when someone has or has not had enough. They get to decide

jagdmesser
Saturday, February 16th, 2019, 01:39 PM
The Gap (Sydney)




https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/The_Gap_looking_north.JPG/800px-The_Gap_looking_north.JPG

The Gap is an ocean cliff on the South Head peninsula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Heads) in eastern Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney), New South Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales), Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia). The area, which faces the Tasman Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_Sea), is located in the eastern suburb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Suburbs_(Sydney)) of Watsons Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watsons_Bay,_New_South_Wales), in the Municipality of Woollahra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipality_of_Woollahra), near South Head (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Heads). Although the cliff is a popular visitor destination, it has an infamy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamy) for suicides.

History


Prior to European settlement, The Gap was inhabited by the Birrabirragal Aboriginal clan who were part of the coastal Darug people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darug_people). Shortly after the arrival of the First Fleet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fleet) in 1788, the British established a makeshift signalling station on the ridge above The Gap. Its role was to give early warning to the colony of any approaching ship. A formal signal station was established in 1790, serviced by a bridle trail (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridle_path) that developed into the Old South Head Road (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_South_Head_Road,_Sydney) by 1811. Pilots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot) based at Camp Cove in Watsons Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watsons_Bay) would meet ships at the entrance to Port Jackson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Jackson) in order to guide them safely into Sydney harbour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_harbour). [1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-1)

In 1871, a year after the official withdrawal of Imperial British forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army), the headland around The Gap became a military garrison when work began to build coastal artillery emplacements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_artillery) to defend the Port of Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Harbour_defences). Construction was undertaken by the colonial government's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales) militia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_forces_of_Australia)under the command of British military engineers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers). The first barracks, which were occupied by members of the New South Wales Artillery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Australian_Artillery), were completed by 1877. Extensions were added in 1880 to accommodate additional personnel. Many of the early barracks are still standing near The Gap.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-HMAS_Watson-2)

By 1895, the area was being used by the fledgling Australian Army as a gunnery school. In 1942 the Royal Australian Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Australian_Navy) had established a radar training school nearby.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-Oldham126-3) The facility was initially named HMAS Radar, but was later commissioned as HMAS Watson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Watson) on 14 March 1945. Torpedo and anti-submarine warfare training were relocated to Watson in 1956.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-4) Visitors are sometimes permitted to visit the clifftop chapel that was dedicated in 1962 to service personnel who served at The Gap. The Gap has been part of Sydney Harbour National Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Harbour_National_Park) since 1982. In 1990, the area was opened to the public to offer access to the spectacular cliff views and walks.


Ship wreck

In 1857 the sailing ship Dunbar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar_(shipwreck)) carrying 63 passengers and 59 crew struck the rocky cliff at the foot of The Gap. The Dunbar, which was captained by James Green, had left England on 31 May 1857 arriving off Botany Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botany_Bay) shortly after dark on 20 August 1857.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-5) In poor visibility and stormy weather, Captain Green misjudged the entrance to the harbour. The Dunbar drove into the rocky cliff at the foot of The Gap causing the ship's topmasts to snap and the ship to turn broadside against the rocks because of the pounding of the waves. By light next day, crowds watched as breakers pounded victims' corpses against the rocks. Other bodies amid cargo and wreckage were washed inside Sydney harbour with the incoming tide; many of the dead were naked and had been mutilated by sharks.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-6) The funeral of the Dunbar victims was one of the longest processions ever seen in Sydney. The unidentified dead were buried in a common grave at Camperdown cemetery.

A young sailor named James Johnson was the only survivor. He was rescued after clinging to a rocky ledge below The Gap for 36 hours. Johnson, who was later employed at the lighthouse near Newcastle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle,_New_South_Wales), rescued another lone survivor from the wreckage of the steamer, SS Cawarra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Cawarra), in July 1866.

The Dunbar's anchor was recovered more than fifty years later and placed on the cliffs at Watsons Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watsons_Bay,_New_South_Wales) with a memorial tablet.


Geology, fauna and flora

The Gap is formed from Sydney sandstone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_sandstone) making it part of Sydney basin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_basin). The cliff was laid as sediment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sediment) more than 200 million years ago in the Triassic period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic_period). During the Jurassic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic)era, 40 million years later, a cataclysmic event resulted in an enormous crack forming within the strata. This fault allowed erosion from wave action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_action) to create the cliff line around Sydney. Tessellated basalt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt) rock platforms lie at the base of the cliff because The Gap is bordered to the south and west by an older sequence of largely low-grade metamorphic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphic) and granitic rocks of the Lachlan Fold Belt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachlan_Fold_Belt). Northwards these rocks pass into the Hunter Region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Region) sequence that is transitional between the Sydney Basin and New England Fold Belt. The Gap itself forms a sequence that continues offshore to the edge of the Sahul Shelf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahul_Shelf). The total maximum thickness of rock formations within the Sydney Basin are in depth ranges of 5,000 metres (16,000 ft).

The rock is a very porous stone. It is composed of very pure silica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_dioxide) grains and a small amount of the iron mineral siderite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderite) in varying proportions, bound with a clay matrix. The Gap's warm yellow-brown colour is due to oxidation of the stone.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-flan-8)

Skinks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skink) and eastern water dragons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_water_dragon) can often be seen moving among the rocks. Seabirds, such as the silver gull (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_gull) and the Pacific gull (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_gull) use the cliff for nesting sites.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-9) The sandstone cliff has created nutrient-poor soils similar to those found around Sydney.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-10) As nutrients are scarce, plants which survive on The Gap cannot afford to lose leaves to herbivores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore) so they defend their foliage with toxins. Vegetation includes the eucalypts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus) which produces such toxins.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-flan-8)


Suicide location

The Gap is a well known place for suicides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide) in Australia. The tall cliffs have made it a location for those wishing to end their lives. Between 2008 and 2011 numerous measures have been implemented to dissuade those at risk of suicide, these include security cameras to monitor the area, several purpose-built Lifeline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(Crisis_Support_Service)) counselling phone booths, and information boards from the Black Dog Institute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dog_Institute) and Beyondblue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyondblue). An inward-leaning fence has also been erected to deter people from jumping.

On the afternoon of 20 April 1936, noted Australian diarist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diarists) Meta Truscott (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_Truscott) recorded how she and her uncle, Christopher Dunne, witnessed a suicide at The Gap. By chance, the pair shared a bench with a well-dressed, middle-aged man who was later identified as William Albert Swivell. As the three watched a ship sail through the Sydney Heads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Heads), her uncle asked the man if he knew its name, to which Swivell replied, "The Nieuw Holland." Soon afterwards, the smartly-dressed man stood up and walked away; he climbed to the top of the cliff and jumped to his death.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-11)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-13)

In June 1995, a 24-year-old model, Caroline Byrne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Byrne), fell to her death at The Gap. Due to the notoriety of the area, police did not initially suspect foul play. However, in 2008, her then-boyfriend was convicted of pushing her over the edge.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-14) He was later acquitted of murder in February 2012.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-tedeschi-15)

In November 2007, Charmaine Dragun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charmaine_Dragun), a 29-year-old newsreader who worked for 10 News First (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_News_First), jumped from The Gap after battling depression and anorexia.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-16)


Angel of The Gap

In 2009, Don Ritchie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Ritchie), a former Second World War Naval veteran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Navy) and retired insurance agent, was awarded a Medal of the Order of Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_the_Order_of_Australia) for preventing suicides at The Gap.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-17)From 1964, Ritchie saved 164 people from jumping from the cliffs by crossing the road from his property and engaging them in conversation, often beginning with the words, "Can I help you in some way?" Afterwards Ritchie would invite them back to his home for a cup of tea and a chat. Some would return years later to thank him for his efforts in talking them out of their decision. Ritchie, who was nicknamed the "Angel of The Gap", died in May 2012.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney)#cite_note-18)

The Gap (Sydney) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_(Sydney))






"the notoriety of the area" - Should there be publicity about the area and the deeds?

SaxonPagan
Saturday, February 16th, 2019, 02:02 PM
Beachy Head was always the spot chosen for this particular type of suicide in England ...

https://i.ibb.co/rZXVXZd/BEACHYHEAD.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/dark-history-of-beauty-spot-where-hundreds-have-died/news-story/27720b63cf174316ed3d479f8ca25bf0

jagdmesser
Saturday, February 16th, 2019, 03:33 PM
Never associated the ‘Cliffs of Moher’ Clare, Ireland with suicide.

Should there be publicity about the area and the deeds?

I have a health respect for heights, verging to vertigo.




Cliffs of Moher rise to 702 feet (214 m) at their highest point and range for 8 kms (5 miles) over the Atlantic ocean.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Cliffs-Of-Moher-OBriens-From-South.JPG/800px-Cliffs-Of-Moher-OBriens-From-South.JPG


For some of you intending to holiday in Ireland soon these lines are the most important I will write and you will read for the rest of the year. I am shocked to be penning this message, but if it saves a life I will be doing a very good deed indeed.

The message is stark and simple. If you or anyone in your party is in a low state of mind, or has a pressing personal problem of any kind in their lives, DO NOT VISIT THE CLIFFS OF MOHER ON THE CLARE COAST.

I speak from long experience.

They recovered another body from below the famed cliffs a few evenings ago. The rescuers have been doing that on an increasingly regular basis for years now.

There was always a suicide toll at this awe-inspiring wonder of nature but, beyond doubt, for those with troubled minds, the Cliffs of Moher (https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/travel/The-legends-surrounding-the-beautiful-Cliffs-of-Moher-PHOTOS.html) has become even more dangerous with every year that passes.

Typically a lone person travels in their car to the car park at the magnificently developed visitor center, which now attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors annually. Typically their friends and families have no warning that a tragedy is imminent.

Often it is the deserted car, alone in the car park, early the following morning which tips off the locals to the possibility of a tragedy having happened again during the dark hours. Typically, too, those who take the long horrific fall leave a suicide note in their cars. It is a weird ritual by now.

Typically, and horribly also, the recovery of their broken bodies, even for the experts, is a very difficult task, especially if the weather is bad. Often it takes weeks rather than days before there is recovery. I think some of the lost souls are never recovered at all, God love them.

I have reported down the years on some of the suicides at Moher. I have seen a couple of bodies away down below in the surf line after the events.

One sight that stays with me is that of a female body wearing a bright red dress, tossing and turning in heavy seas which prevented the rescuers from reaching her. I will never forget that sight.
Her story later emerged and it was almost standard for the scenario. She was a middle-aged Dubliner, with no mental or personal problems her family and friends were aware of, and she travelled down to Moher as a passenger on a coach tour.

She was missing when the party boarded the coach again after viewing the mighty cliffs and enjoying one of the most scenic vistas along the Wild Atlantic Way that has been so successful as a tourist attraction in recent years. There was no warning for anyone who traveled with her about her dread intentions.

I think I told ye before about a conversation with a Cork taxi driver who picked up a male fare in Cork city a few years ago. The thirty-something passenger was a pleasant young man who talked freely about life and sport on the journey.

Initially he said he wished to go to nearby Lahinch resort but, when they reached there, he changed his mind, said the taxi driver, and asked to be brought the few extra miles to Moher. When they arrived there he paid the agreed fare, gave his bottle of water to the driver, and wished him safe home. Then he went off to his death just like that.

I've stood on the verge of the attraction myself many times down the years. Before the splendid visitor center was established you could position yourself right on the edge of the fearful void and look downwards at the foaming Atlantic far below.

Personally, I've always thought how dreadful it would be to trip and accidentally take the final tumble. There is certainly for most a high level of awe and wonder and fear involved in standing there.

For some, clearly, there is much more.

Nowadays it is not really possible to have an accidental fall because of the fencing. Those who go over, tragically, are doing so deliberately. And it is happening far too often.

Accordingly, on any occasion now when I hear of another broken body being brought ashore by the dedicated first-responders, the phrase which leaps into my mind is “the terrible beauty..."

And that is why I am writing this way this week of the peak holiday season. The stupendous sight of the Cliffs of Moher is totally worthwhile and stimulating for almost all who come there.

But far too often, also, there are the lonesome cars at dawn in the car park or nearby. And the notes on the dashboard.

Isn't there an old saying, “See Naples and die…” Truly there is a wider context, for whatever reason.

Be careful out there.

The tragic reality of deaths at the Cliffs of Moher (https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/the-tragic-reality-of-deaths-at-the-cliffs-of-moher)16 Feb 2019.

Chlodovech
Thursday, February 28th, 2019, 09:01 PM
It's affecting so many men these days and it's always a tragedy for those who remain behind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrax1s4U5QA

jagdmesser
Saturday, March 2nd, 2019, 10:13 AM
Good vid.

Its a deliberate war on the Western family by redefining the female male roles.

Civilization and barbarism are paradoxical.






What our new study reveals about the genetics and biology of suicidal behaviour


More than three quarters of a million people take their own lives every year, to devastating personal, social and economic cost. Recent research (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6165520/)has detailed the strong connection between suicide and mental illness, particularly depression.

Past studies (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440417/) have also shown that those who have lost a relative this way are more likely to consider suicide. This paints a complex picture of suicide as something that has been shown to have both environmental and biological causes.

Now our research (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352396419300775) has identified specific DNA risk markers which are involved. Our analysis has also shown that people who died by suicide had more of these risk markers, and has indicated the extent of overlap with risk markers for mental illness.


Complex behaviour

Suicidal behaviour is complex and poorly understood. It includes a range of thoughts and actions, from thinking about self-harm through to suicide attempts. Thoughts about self-harm are relatively common (https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/s/self-harm) in the general population, even in those with no history of mental illness.

Genetic variations influence personality types as well as the risk of mental health problems and alcohol or drug use. But it is also clear that genetic predisposition is only part of the issue – broader factors such as personality (impulsivity, pessimism), social (loneliness), economic (deprivation), lifestyle (drug or alcohol use) and environmental (loss of a loved one) also play an important role in suicidal behaviour.

Even without mental illness, negative life experiences (such as bereavement, divorce, financial worries) can trigger distress and despair in people. This can be worse in people with low optimism or perfectionist personalities and can lead to suicidal thoughts and behaviours. People with impulsive or aggressive personalities, or those under the influence of drugs or alcohol, might also act in a way that could injure themselves without realising the severity of the consequences. Access to lethal methods (such as guns) is an important factor in the outcome being self-harm or suicide.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/259266/original/file-20190215-56208-fq47tb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip

Approximately six years after the study began, UK Biobank asked 157,000 participants (from the 500,000 people in the initial study), with and without mental health problems, to complete a comprehensive thoughts and feelings questionnaire (http://biobank.ctsu.ox.ac.uk/crystal/label.cgi?id=146). This included a range of questions on mental health and self-harm. Participants were asked whether they had ever:

1. considered that life was not worth living

2. contemplated self-harm

3. self-harmed

4. attempted suicide in the past

We used this range of suicidal behaviours – from thoughts about self-harm and ending life to suicide attempts – analysed in order of increasing severity, and identified three regions of DNA containing genetic variations that were associated with suicidal thoughts and behaviour.

By linking to death certification records (a small proportion of the UK Biobank have died by suicide), we were also able to show that having more genetic variants associated with suicidal tendencies were observed in individuals who died by suicide. When considering summary results (rather than individual data) across the genome, we found that, as expected, there was an overlap (a genetic correlation) between the genetic variants for suicidal behaviours and those that increase risk for several mental illnesses, most notably major depressive disorder and anxiety disorders.


Important work

Understanding the genetics and biology of suicidal behaviour is challenging but important work because it will help to inform our understanding of mental illness more broadly. Further study of the three regions of DNA can help us to understand the biology of suicidal behaviour – do the genetic variants influence personality traits? Do the genetic variants increase the risk of suicidal behaviour only when combined with lifestyle, social or negative life events? Can these genetic variants be useful in predicting an individual’s risk of suicidal behaviour?

More accurate models of suicide risk prediction are urgently needed and are vitally important for public health around the world. Our long-term ambition is that researchers in genetics will work more closely with social and psychological scientists to develop useful models of suicidal behaviour that are informed by evidence from biological, social, psychological and medical research.

It is very clear that both nature and nurture are important (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938407002338?via%3Dihub) factors in suicidal behaviour. Now we need to study how these complex areas interact to influence risk at a personal level, as well as how society as a whole can have an effect on risk of suicide, such as raising awareness about the dangers of loneliness and lack of social connection.

What our new study reveals about the genetics and biology of... (http://yandex.ru/clck/jsredir?bu=8taj&from=yandex.ru%3Bsearch%2F%3Bweb%3B%3B&text=&etext=2078.8rrbWdRq0HAhJZVfMSL6WmYGDS5gA WU0jiOyvT-2TXOFwSHxoR-aLKrmXUDSf5618_oVIalH5WNKL767v8i3YTMXNqf ngByfVSv23n_Li_mZfYQ84yx5NkHGq7_p0c9mUJ8 JA-gh9CT5zq_qCq24sYtXD5OmNPBh93PKFaJOhq2h0B rzDtGWOh4T_L6QE0yZD2Mn5SoSbuPszF_9pl6HpF LTO5Wx0uZUn0GzWEinX6k_1d1v81fTAbi9BwmUHG Z9mSWURF7FCO0Iv_8zUaWXbUbPitW-ccnGUwRygDsn6jX-cKONOGgTObu9PWUwSoH-BWDIJ5RJiPjQx-sSFphxevO0464cmTHME3LDoV-03NI.dc142961801ef63b45d03f403513cbe72e1 1c1e3&uuid=&state=PEtFfuTeVD5kpHnK9lio9daDl0Ow0EQqBn wXqr2CGSTlhSDEzIy2U1LCcDQlKH1Xusf5-P8d-RAV1WBos9vZ39_-dAc8OfpLchPzB16k5V-o7hPwz3vyP_kJlO5cVrORaqX5QQje_8uFbfv4VGe Vsg,,&&cst=AiuY0DBWFJ5Hyx_fyvalFLFfOiIpZKkuWKuM iVL_0z28AblzcHUSfuja-jiqeyewI1kOxK415rE1FSwWIjXV5ulqy2Qs4d1aG sZTv1ja2KPGNVTgkTxWQiajhp4WYVyNwdtw7eFOH 1yEpOrplmgeppmMPKzmGHHZIMpNckB0ayThQ1dPY 5PuPRNXkrycG-ro7idiY6lKI11ong2ah7-FPnzBuQfrjnhjz0u8AqF5UniVCMnYtb6eZDHrEzi onyJRsTo6Nom5JpFUnCJ59Mwz9NvYEDqwqJO21m_ fbYAyQ6k-PkNEfxPj2mthIOA5_MDFyQTJWrDAxcxO0GUtqxJX xf_UGdrKyd6teBnpavcmxdSkBXU7nfi07uSuKCn0 weKfy7YVlNEnWtjhQ3_41mzlLXaT2UJrZBVF1OoJ pnpiHN1FMYuFVUhe--nwmRy7igUs9btBr0G5JHY2yvqe1J6kuNG25lU6Oe jOBG4RwlWBIcd2ZFRMgovQeMU5jK3iSq4pyjikbS Glq2PcImJkB5M_Uvr4Xj-kAC_v&data=UlNrNmk5WktYejR0eWJFYk1Ldmtxai1STGR 4WHRoSC15UVhzaUNaN2JhU2IzSGdQaWpCcTR0b3Z MamZGLURyQk1RRHFuVVBjOXpzZ1FkODZabE9ETmp pb3V4QWxjRTh5YldYcEFTWGFhLUN3QmRlSDBuM3B hRlY5azRFUmJmN1kwdFNTOTM4cXlGdXpWSHZrRUt ZOGoxcFpuMERSVmVzSUQwS0VfYzUzYUpwT3JFMk9 YVUNQcEU2SlRIb29JYUd6UE9KbU53NkFVLUxMNDR SSk5oZ1c3SFdGR3NHZnZneDk,&sign=8168008d88ccbf5a9e7a8e01ab1a1138&keyno=0&b64e=2&ref=orjY4mGPRjk5boDnW0uvlrrd71vZw9kpjly_ ySFdX80,&l10n=ru&cts=1551471184472&mc=4.703464940522037&hdtime=902345)01 Mar 2019.

Leliana
Thursday, March 7th, 2019, 11:15 PM
It's called existentialist depression. I was deeply troubled by it during my teens and early twenties. Questions such as what is life all about. Why am I here, etc., combined with self-doubt plagued my troubled mind....
That existentialist depression was one of the main reasons for the evolution of the Black&DeathMetal scene in Scandinavia. No wonder that most Metal bands are in Scandinavia plus Finland. It's a good valve for the anger and mouthpiece for sharing thoughts with others that are affected.

schwab
Thursday, March 7th, 2019, 11:55 PM
In GOD I trust, suicide is murder in my view, never entered my mind.

Víđálfr
Wednesday, March 13th, 2019, 12:22 AM
Suicide is a terrible thing. However, I can understand some people's reasons to think about it. A family member who's very close to me had a failed suicide attempt. It was because of unrequited love. Several years after, the same person was almost decided to do it again, and firstly wrote farewell letters. While reading their own letters, that person realized how sad it was to leave behind all those who loved them, so that person changed their mind. Fortunately.

I have to admit, sometimes I had (and still have) thoughts like that too... and each time it was (is) because of unrequited love. For me this was and still is a real struggle. :(



Usually someone who commits suicide is very unhappy.

I feel terrible for anyone in that situation :(
Indeed! :(



Look at Hitler - rather than being promenaded about and letting the liberal allies make a pony show of his trials, he kept some dignity and honor even in his defeat.
Cases like these are exceptional. The last great Dacian king, Decebal, committed suicide too when the capital of Dacia was finally conquered by the Romans. :(



I'm viewing suicide as a sin against God and nature. We were given this life, we didn't decide on our own to come into the world, so taking out life is not a granted right. God and nature decide when it's the time to leave this world. Peoples who think of suicide are often just needing a hand in help, the suicide attempt is a cry for help and attention. Yes, we've many obstacles in our life and challenged with loss and depression, but we're fighters. We've to pull through. Suicide is against our natural survival skills.
... No comment...

Leliana
Monday, March 18th, 2019, 10:56 PM
It's important to die with a weapon in your hand, regardless of the reason of your death. There's no honorless death when you lead a good life. Suicide can be an option, a last resort. But when you go, take some enemies with you.

SaxonPagan
Tuesday, March 19th, 2019, 02:38 AM
I'm viewing suicide as a sin against God and nature. We were given this life, we didn't decide on our own to come into the world, so taking out life is not a granted right. God and nature decide when it's the time to leave this world.

What? This same 'God' who made life **** for so many people?

Let me tell you that when I finally get to meet him he has a lot of explaining to do! :mad

Rodulf
Tuesday, March 19th, 2019, 01:55 PM
It's important to die with a weapon in your hand, regardless of the reason of your death. There's no honorless death when you lead a good life. Suicide can be an option, a last resort. But when you go, take some enemies with you.

Damnit, Leliana, I like the cut of your jib! All Heathen women take a step forward!