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CroatPower
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Philology: Croats as Hrvatis
Let us commence our investigation with the Croats. The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves "Hrvati" and their country "Hrvatska", whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name "Hrvati" is derived from the Avestan province "Harahvaiti" (Greek: "Arachosia"). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1955, pp. 33-36; Sakac 1949, 1937) As Dvornik notes, "P.S.Sakac thinks that he discovered the name 'Croats' in Darius' inscriptions from the sixth century B.C. There an old Persian province and people are mentioned, called Harahvaitai, Harahvatis, Horohoati..." (Dvornik 1956, p.26) Further, the Roman leader Ammanius Marcellinus mentioned that two cities arose in ancient Persia called Habroatis and Chroates. In this regard, Prof. Mandic writes,


"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1) Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam. Moreover, certain authorities note that the name of the Carpathian mountains is derived from Croatia:


"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration:


Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic
It is important to note that the Avesta - the sacred scriptures of the ancient Aryan Zoroastrians - mentions the lands settled by the Iranic peoples. Hapta-Hindawa (ie. the Punjab, "Sapta-Sindhu" in Prakrit) is mentioned in the Avesta amongst the Irano-Aryan lands. Even today, the Punjab is the primary home of the Jats. Since the Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River, and the Jats are the present-day inhabitants of the lost Harahvaiti, it would appear that Jats and Croats would be very closely related indeed.

Vexillology
Further compelling evidence comes from vexillology (the scientific study of flags). Thus, the Croatian flag is based on the chessboard, whence many Croatian historians consider Croats as eponymic descendants of the Sassanid chess master & minister Bozorgmehr, just as the Kambojas are eponymic descendants of Cambyses and Georgians are viewed as the eponymic descendants of King George II. In this regard, Prof. Mandic notes,


"Ancient Croatian folk art bears eastern and Iranian traces, particularly the Croatian "troplets". The Croats also brought over from Iran their national coat of arms with its 64 red and white checkers. (11: Strzycowskyi, 15-63, 156-181; Dado-Peranic, op.cit., 21-24; Mandic Hrvatski kockasti grb, 639-652)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Furthermore,


"The organization of the state among the southern Croats with the king, bans and zupans at its head similar to that of the northern Croats; in addition the religion, national customs, dress and arts of the southern Croats bear Iranian traces, just like the Croats in the north. " (Mandic 1970, ch.3) Indeed, a total of 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have published 249 research works elaborating the Old Iranic origin of Croats (Tomicic 1998).

Folklore
A researcher notes similarities in folklore as well,


"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II) Research studies on Croatian clothing reveals similarities with Sassanian and other Iranic styles both in terms of male and female clothing.

White Croatia, Red Croatia, Green Croatia
The Iranic origin of Croats is in fact the only way one can comprehend the traditional distinction existing between White Croatia, Red Croatia and Green Croatia:


"After the Iranian fashion the ancient Croats ascribed a specific colour to each of the four cardinal points of the compass in the territory which they inhabited. The colour white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. (10: Saussure, Le Systeme 235-297; idem, L'origine des noms 23; Sakac, op. cit., 37-40) Hence White or West Croatia, Red or South Croatia and Green or East Croatia." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Further, Dobrovich notes,


"It should be noted that only the thesis of the Iranian origin of the Croats can explain the name "Horvath", the title of a Croat dignitary Banus, the names "White" and "Red Croatian", and the Bogumile phenomenon. According to this theory, the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors. The Caucasian Anten were another branch of this group." (Dobrovich 1963) Let us conclude this section on Croats with the words of the learned Prof. Mandic: "The oldest historical evidence, the ancient Croatian social organization, religion, national customs and art indicate that the Croats are of Iranian origin." (Mandic 1970, Concl.)


Personally I dislike slavs and I dont see myself as slav. I and every croat I know look german like. I am proud to say I am Aryan even though it is also known that Croats have been mixed with austrians and italians since the croatian part called Dalmatia has been italian for hundreds of years.

Croats are NOT slavs and never will be and I am greatful for this.

CroatPower
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 08:43 PM
And also (addition for the ignorant)...

"the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors."

Zrinski
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Only Croatian name is of Iranian(Aryan) origin so you can hardly call the population Iranian or Germanic since they are not both. Truth to be siad there are some minor celto-germanic leftovers in northwestern Croatia, but they make only about 10% of Croatian population. The rest are Slavs(29%) proto-Illyrians(45%) and Mediterranids(Greeks and Anatolians 15%).

Übersoldat
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Christ, not another thread about Croat origins! :doh

Ill better make things easier for Triglav and Slav-Anthro gang and post the mongolian article my self:


Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism was analysed in a sample of 108 Croatians from the Adriatic Island isolate of Hvar. Besides typically European varieties of human maternal lineages, haplogroup F was found in a considerable frequency (8.3%). This haplogroup is most frequent in southeast Asia but has not been reported before in Europe. The genealogical analysis of haplogroup F cases from Hvar suggested founder effect. Subsequent field work was undertaken to sample and analyse 336 persons from three neighbouring islands (Brac, Korcula and Krk) and 379 more persons from all Croatian mainland counties and to determine if haplogroup F is present in the general population. Only one more case was found in one of the mainland cities, with no known ancestors from Hvar Island. The first published phylogenetic analysis of haplogroup F worldwide is presented, applying the median network method, suggesting several scenarios how this maternal lineage may have been added to the Croatian mtDNA pool. source: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tolk2001.pdf

Worthy of note is the finding of considerable frequency of haplogroup P*(xM173) in the population of the island of Hvar. According to Wells et al 44 this lineage displays a maximum in Central Asia while being rare in Europe, Middle East and East Asia. Its presence in Hvar recapitulates our finding of mtDNA haplogroup F on the island of Hvar and in mainland Croatian population that is virtually absent in Europe but, again, common in populations from Central and Eastern Asia. 51 There are several possibilities for the occurrence of the ancestral lineage of M173. One is the well-documented alliance of Avars (a Mongol people) and Slavs (Croatians) that followed Avar arrival to the eastern Adriatic in 6th century AD. The other is the expansion of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th to 18th century AD when refugees from the western Balkan frequently immigrated to the islands. Lastly, the ancient Silk Road linking China with western Asia and Europe could be a possible path of P(xM173) lineage, too. Any of these migratory patterns could have introduced this mutation to the investigated population. source: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Barac2003.pdf

We're all Mongols from Hvar, and we all look like this:
http://www.euro2004.com/MultimediaFiles/Photo/Euro2004/Players/189021_MEDIUMSQUARE.jpg


Happy now? :nut

Triglav
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Christ, not another thread about Croat origins! :doh

Ill better make things easier for Triglav and Slav-Anthro gang and post the mongolian article my self:

Slander (http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=2729). There is no such thing as the aforementioned "gang". Not everyone is a gangster like you. ;) Don't judge others by your own actions.



Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism was analysed in a sample of 108 Croatians from the Adriatic Island isolate of Hvar. Besides typically European varieties of human maternal lineages, haplogroup F was found in a considerable frequency (8.3%). This haplogroup is most frequent in southeast Asia but has not been reported before in Europe. The genealogical analysis of haplogroup F cases from Hvar suggested founder effect. Subsequent field work was undertaken to sample and analyse 336 persons from three neighbouring islands (Brac, Korcula and Krk) and 379 more persons from all Croatian mainland counties and to determine if haplogroup F is present in the general population. Only one more case was found in one of the mainland cities, with no known ancestors from Hvar Island. The first published phylogenetic analysis of haplogroup F worldwide is presented, applying the median network method, suggesting several scenarios how this maternal lineage may have been added to the Croatian mtDNA pool. source: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tolk2001.pdf

Worthy of note is the finding of considerable frequency of haplogroup P*(xM173) in the population of the island of Hvar. According to Wells et al 44 this lineage displays a maximum in Central Asia while being rare in Europe, Middle East and East Asia. Its presence in Hvar recapitulates our finding of mtDNA haplogroup F on the island of Hvar and in mainland Croatian population that is virtually absent in Europe but, again, common in populations from Central and Eastern Asia. 51 There are several possibilities for the occurrence of the ancestral lineage of M173. One is the well-documented alliance of Avars (a Mongol people) and Slavs (Croatians) that followed Avar arrival to the eastern Adriatic in 6th century AD. The other is the expansion of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th to 18th century AD when refugees from the western Balkan frequently immigrated to the islands. Lastly, the ancient Silk Road linking China with western Asia and Europe could be a possible path of P(xM173) lineage, too. Any of these migratory patterns could have introduced this mutation to the investigated population. source: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Barac2003.pdf

A fact but insignificant in the greater picture.




We're all Mongols from Hvar, and we all look like this:
http://www.euro2004.com/MultimediaFiles/Photo/Euro2004/Players/189021_MEDIUMSQUARE.jpg


Happy now? :nut

Slander and a lie again. You slander me and lie about me all the time. It was I who pointed out that they do not look like average Croatians - in fact I've always pointed out that they are most likely not Croats - just like you did.

Here are just two instances:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/viewtopic.php?t=89&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=141305&postcount=148

You're barking up the wrong tree again. You hate me because I'm Slovenian, but I'm not the evil ugly Bolshevik from your Ustasa bedtime stories, and you're not the noble freedom fighter.

Übersoldat
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Victory over Awars:


Vojnomir (c.790 - c.800)

Vojnomir (dux) appeared on the political scene when much of Central and Southern Europe was being raided by the Avars. Croatia fell victim to numerous attacks and many of its towns and cities were destroyed. In 791 Vojnomir assembled an army and launched a joint counteroffensive with Frankish troops under King Charlemagne. Despite the Avars' military superiority (largest cavalry in Europe), he drove them out of Northern Croatia and recompensed Charlemagne by recognising Frankish suzerainty. Vojnomir and Charlemagne continued the offensive beyond Croatia's borders and dealt the Avars a crushing defeat on the plains of present-day Hungary in 796.

Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus noted Croatia's victory over the Avars in his treatise on foreign affairs: De Administrando Imperio. He also mentioned the difficult wars fought between Avars and Croats when the latter first settled in the Roman provinces of Illyricum and Pannonia in the 620s.

Archaeologists have discovered numerous tools and weapons used by the Croats in their wars against the Avars. At the time it was customary for Croatian warriors to be buried with their weapons. Various swords, shields, arrowheads, knives, axes, spearheads, chains, spurs and buckles have been excavated from sites near Zagreb, Velika Gorica, Varazdin, Cakovec, Koprivnica, Slavonski Brod, Knin, Benkovac, Koljane, Nin, and Prijedor.

However the practice of burying objects with the dead was not limited to warriors. Women were quite often buried with elegant gold and silver earings, necklaces, pendants, bracelets and rings. Interestingly, a grave near Nin was found to contain goblets, a glass carafe and silver coins. This ancient Croatian tradition rapidly disappeared in the early 800s; around the time they converted to Christianity. It is widely believed that Vojnomir himself was Christian but the date of his conversion is unknown. Many of these artefacts are on display at the Archaeological Museum in Zagreb and Museum of Croatian Archaeological Monuments in Split.

http://members.tripod.com/royalcroatia/vojnomir.htm

Vojvoda
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 02:15 AM
Why don't Croats just stop speaking a Slavic language altogether,throw in some Iranian and Gothic words here and there,do something please! :D As Shapur would say, "Shooby doo wee,shooby doo waa" or something like that :P

CroatPower
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 11:15 AM
Only Croatian name is of Iranian(Aryan) origin so you can hardly call the population Iranian or Germanic since they are not both. Truth to be siad there are some minor celto-germanic leftovers in northwestern Croatia, but they make only about 10% of Croatian population. The rest are Slavs(29%) proto-Illyrians(45%) and Mediterranids(Greeks and Anatolians 15%).
That may be true, I could not say I know for sure since I am not an scientist myself but I believe they have a point. I have some Iranian friends and when I look at them I can sort of see a recemblense. They look very European like and thinking about how they would have mixed with germans and so forth I do believe it could be true. It sounds nice to "Croats, the true aryans". ;-)

Anyways whatever can be said I am sure about one thing, true Croats are NOT slavs. I see no recemblens when looking at other slavic people and Croatians. I for one dont look slavic at all and nor does my friends. We look more Swedish like. Not one single person have ever even guessed I am from any other part of the world then northern Europe. The same thing cant be said about serbs. They are much darker and "rubust". There is a big difference even my friend who is Italian can see it.

Shapur
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 04:02 PM
The genetic of Croats show that they were the old Aryan ruler caste of Europe.
Look on old Slavs. Their leaders were black haired, tall, yellow/green/brown eyed people. This look you can find under every Croate more or less.
Also we know that the Croats have a strong conection to Sarmatians!
Nothing speak against an Aryan origin of Croats maybe als an eastern Aryan influence of different Iranian tribes.
It show only that the Croats are like most Iranians of different Aryan origin.
The mummies who were found in south Russia of Sarmatians were highheaded, tall, black/brown haired who look like some Croats of Iranians I know.
Also the fact that the Greeks/Romanians wrote about their Iranian origin speak for an Aryan origin of Croats and southeastern Europeans.
The Bulgars are also an Iranian tribe. I know a Bulgar and he looks 90% simmilar to me. Tall, highhead, has a hooked nose, black hairs.
The only thing what is not on him pure Aryan is a little mongolian appearance.
The Slavs are called by old Iranians as slave which explain the Iranian/Aryan rule about them.

norda
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 05:16 PM
Their leaders were black haired, tall, yellow/green/brown eyed people (...)Tall, highhead, has a hooked nose, black hairs.

I have read about this „Master Race” of Europe. You may be right. I will give you some rep.points. It could be really connected with presence of Hg 9 in Europe. http://www.dnaconsulting.ws/conversion.html

Thanks to Shapur the next important discovery was made. Old Slavic dynasties were “true Iranians” [Semitic?] but they were suffering from phenylketonuria just like some blue eyed N. Indians or Kurds ;)

J.P. Slovjanski
Wednesday, July 7th, 2004, 09:37 PM
That may be true, I could not say I know for sure since I am not an scientist myself but I believe they have a point. I have some Iranian friends and when I look at them I can sort of see a recemblense. They look very European like and thinking about how they would have mixed with germans and so forth I do believe it could be true. It sounds nice to "Croats, the true aryans". ;-)

Anyways whatever can be said I am sure about one thing, true Croats are NOT slavs. I see no recemblens when looking at other slavic people and Croatians. I for one dont look slavic at all and nor does my friends. We look more Swedish like. Not one single (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=409,28092623,skadi.ne t) person have ever even guessed I am from any other part of the world then northern Europe. The same thing cant be said about serbs. They are much darker and "rubust". There is a big difference even my friend who is Italian can see it.

You can't see the visual similarities between Slavs and Croats? You're either blind or not Croatian then!!! I bet if I saw your picture the first thing I would say is "some kind of Yugoslav". Second, Serbs have a wide variety of looks and for every "dark" Serb you find you can find a Croat somewhere that looks the same. You know it's true.

Croats and Slovenes, as well as some Western Slavs, can sometimes be harder to spot due to mixing with Germanic groups(which in my opinion are rather plain), but you can usually always tell.

Shapur
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 12:34 AM
I have read about this „Master Race” of Europe. You may be right. I will give you some rep.points. It could be really connected with presence of Hg 9 in Europe. http://www.dnaconsulting.ws/conversion.html

Thanks to Shapur the next important discovery was made. Old Slavic dynasties were “true Iranians” [Semitic?] but they were suffering from phenylketonuria just like some blue eyed N. Indians or Kurds ;)
HG9 has his higest rates in Zagros, northern Iran, Kurdistan so it is not Semitic.
Also we know about the fact that the many Arabs have Aryan ancestors like Amus, Hykos etc.! :D

Polak
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 06:27 AM
Croats Iranians???

Crap.

Croats are Slavs through and through.

Even the original Balkanoids they mingled with were a minority, and only make up a small amount of the Croat gene pool.

Not only is the R1a1 in Coats of Slavic origin, but so is the Ib.

The proof is in the pudding...



An interesting read for several reasons. Please note the low level of the Scandinavian marker in England. And the extremely low level of the Dinaric marker in Italy.

In fact, the Dinaric marker may even be some sort of a Slavic marker. It's not only high in Croats, but in Russians, Belos and Ukes. Hmmmm...

Much less common in Poland, where both markers have the same incidence.


Dinaric and Nordic Modal Haplotypes

The Dinaric Modal Haplotype (DMH: 16 –24–11– 11 –13, defined by DYS19 –390–391–392–393, respectively) has a focus of distribution in the Balkan peninsula and the Nordic Modal Haplotype (NMH: 14 – 23 – 10 – 11 – 13) has a focus of distribution in Scandinavia. It should be noted that two Y chromosomes having the same haplotype are not necessarily related, since the same haplotype may be observed on different backgrounds. The ancient ancestral origins of Y chromosomes are determined by unique event polymorphisms (UEPs) for which there are currently no open-access databases. By contrast, there are a few short-tandem-repeat (STR) databases, as STRs are heavily used in the forensic community. Both the DMH and the NMH are associated with Haplogroup I.

A search for the NMH in YHRD reveals as expected, a high frequency in Sweden (13%), Southern Norway (16%), Värmland, Sweden (12%), Northern Norway (16%), Oslo (9%), Östergötland/Jönköping, Sweden (10%), Uppsala (11%), Skaraborg, Sweden (13%), Central Norway (15%), Blekinge, Sweden (14%).

A search for the DHMH reveals it in Byelorussia (10%), Kiev (13%), Ljubljana, Slovenia (10%), FYROM (12.1%), Moscow (11%), Zagreb Croatia (16%).

A few other observations:

NMH/DMH: European Americans from NYC (2/3%), Maryland (2/2%), Missouri (2/0%), Pennsylvania (3/0%)

NMH/DMH: Athens (3/5%), Macedonian Greeks (0/7%), Peloponnesians (0/6%), Thessaliots (7/7%), Epirots (7/0%)

NMH/DMH in Italy: Latium (4/0%), Liguria (2/0%), Lombardy (2/1%), Marche (2/2%), Puglia (3/0%), Sicily (1/0%), Tuscany (0/0%), Veneto (2/0%), Emilia Romagna (0/1%)

NMH/DMH: Warsaw (4/4%), Moscow (2/11%), Vilnius (1/1%), Albania (1/5%), London, UK (2/1%)

Triglav
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 10:05 AM
I for one dont look slavic at all and nor does my friends. We look more Swedish like. Not one single person have ever even guessed I am from any other part of the world then northern Europe.

Yes, Swedes are Mediterraneans just like you. :anieyes

norda
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 10:33 AM
HG9 has his higest rates in Zagros, northern Iran, Kurdistan so it is not Semitic.
Also we know about the fact that the many Arabs have Aryan ancestors like Amus, Hykos etc.! :D
I thought that among Bedouins. :arab They surely look just like Aryans were described in the Vedas- blond hair, light eyes and white skin ;)

Sigrun Christianson
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 11:55 AM
Pardon me for butting in here, but why is it so imporant that Croats not be included with Slavs? But rather with Iranians?!

If I were given a choice between descending from Slavs or Iranians, well.. make room for me, Triglav. And if I were a product of Iran, I certainly wouldn't brag about it. (No offense, Shapur) ;)

Shapur
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 12:20 PM
I thought that among Bedouins. :arab They surely look just like Aryans were described in the Vedas- blond hair, light eyes and white skin ;)
Since when is in the Vedas blond hair? Please the sentence!
Bedouins? LOL!

Awar
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 01:53 PM
Oh! And ZAGROS, it's so totally the same as ZAGREB! :D

norda
Thursday, July 8th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Since when is in the Vedas blond hair? Please the sentence!
Bedouins? LOL!
Yes Shapur.. Bedouins
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
And Hg 9 marker's popular name is Jewish/Semitic..
http://www.dnaconsulting.ws/conversion.html
Anthropologically connected with Semitic element and in mix with Caucasoids - Armenoidal race


THE RIG VEDA DESCRIBES RACIAL CONFLICT
Quotes from the Rig Veda, the original Holy Book of the Aryan conquerors of India (which has now been corrupted but is still to this day in use as the main Hindu religious text) contains a great many references to the race of the conquerors and the conquered.
According to the Rig Veda, the leader of the Aryan invasion was one Indra, and his role in “slaying the Dasyus” (the Negroids in India) is prominent in the Rig Veda:
"Thou, Indra, art the destroyer of all the cities, the slayer of the Dasyus, the prosperer of man, the lord of the sky." - RgV. VIII 87.6
The Rig Veda goes on to use the word “black” in a number of instances to describe the Dasyu:
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb." RgV. II 20.6
THE “ARYAN COLOR” – THE RIG VEDA
The Rig Veda praises the god who "destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour." - Rg.V. III 34.9
It then goes on to thank the god who "bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters." - Rg.V. I 100.18
Black skin is repeatedly referred to with abhorrence in the Rig Veda: starting with a description of the "black skin" (`Krishnam Vacham') in RgV. IX 41.1, Sam. V I.491 and II.242.
For example in RgV. IX 73 it is said that “stormy gods who rush on like furious bulls and scatter the black skin", and it claims that “the black skin, the hated of Indra" will be swept out of heaven - RgV. IX 73.5
Rg.V. I 130.8 tells of how the “black skin” was conquered:
"Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin."
The Rig Veda thanks god for "scattering the slave bands of black descent", and for stamping out "the vile Dasyan colour." - Rg.V. II.20.7, II 12.4
It also contains this choice remark which sums up the Aryan’s opinion of their non-white subjects: "Black skin is impious" (‘Dasam varnam adharam’) -Sans., Rg.V. II.12.4
Other extracts from the Rig Veda further illustrate the sharp racial divisions in this time:
Indra - 1.130.8 - "Indra in battles help his Aryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven. Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, 'twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away."
Indra - 4.16.13 - "Thou to the son of Vidathin, Rjisvan, gavest up mighty Mrgaya and Pipru. Thou smotest down the swarthy fifty thousand, and rentest forts as age consumes a garment."
Indra - 5.29.10 - "One car-wheel of the Sun thou rolledst forward, and one thou settest free to move for Kutsa. Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home o'erthrewest hostile speakers." ("Noseless Dasyus" would suggest a reference to flat nosed Negroid types)
Soma Pavamana - 9.41.1 - "ACTIVE and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, driving the black skin far away."
Soma Pavamana - 9.73.5 - "O'er Sire and Mother they have roared in unison bright with the verse of praise, burning up riteless men, Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates."
RIG VEDA DESCRIBES ARYAN GODS AS BLONDS
Indra - 10.23.4 - "With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard. When the sweet juice is shed he seeks the pleasant place, and stirs the worshipper as wind disturbs the wood."
Indra - 10.96.8 - "At the swift draught the Soma-drinker waxed in might, the Iron One with yellow beard and yellow hair. He, Lord of Tawny Coursers, Lord of fleet-foot Mares, will bear his Bay Steeds safely over all distress."
Indra - 1.9.3 - "O Lord of all men, fair of cheek, rejoice thee in the gladdening lauds, Present at these drink-offerings."
INDRA’S WEAPON: THOR’S LIGHTENING BOLT?
In what could easily be another indicator of the common cultural origins between the Rig Veda and the Indo-European gods, Indra’s greatest weapon is said, in the Rig Veda, to be a lightening bolt – identical to the weapon of Thorburn, the Northern European God:
Indra - 1.100.18 - "He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows. The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters."
Indra - 1.101.1 - "SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away. Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend."
Indra - 1.103.3 - "Armed with his bolt and trusting in his prowess he wandered shattering the forts of Dasas. Cast thy dart, knowing, Thunderer, at the Dasyu; increase the Arya's might and glory, Indra.
4 "For him who thus hath taught these human races, Maghavan, bearing a fame-worthy title, Thunderer, drawing nigh to slay the Dasyus, hath given himself the name of Son for glory."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
http://www.white-history.com/hwr5c.htm

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 12:09 AM
LOL! A translation from 100 years back.



so cin nu vRSTiryUthyA svA sacAnindraH shmashrUNiharitAbhi pruSNute:
With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard.
Entry: pruS, pruSNoti, pruSNute
Meaning: ({pruSyati}), pp. {pruSita3} sprinkle, wet, [[,]] moisten. -- {abhi} M. sprinkle anything on one's self. {pari} sprinkle about. {vi} drip off or down.

In this case wet make sense and not yellow! And also when it would mean blond it would use a special word for it. No IE language I know use the color yellow for blond hair. Also Iranian doesn`t do it! Zard for yellow and Burr for blond!
So my nordish superior you showed that you have no knowledge about this stuff. You thought you can to wind up me? LOL!
A guy who read 10 times the Avesta and begin to learn it by heart
can analyze every old Indo-Iranian texts.

Btw in Indo-Iranian language has Yellow and Rain the same root!
But Blond has something to do with hairs not like Yellow and Rain!

So go and bring me real arguments not something like that!

LOL... :D

The correct translation by an Avestan master speaker!


With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his wet beard.

;)

Vojvoda
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 12:16 AM
LOL! A translation from 100 years back.

Entry: pruS, pruSNoti, pruSNute
Meaning: ({pruSyati}), pp. {pruSita3} sprinkle, wet, [[,]] moisten. -- {abhi} M. sprinkle anything on one's self. {pari} sprinkle about. {vi} drip off or down.

In this case wet make sense and not yellow! And also when it would mean blond it would use a special word for it. No IE language I know use the color yellow for blond hair. Also Iranian doesn`t do it! Zard for yellow and Burr for blond!
So my nordish superior you showed that you have no knowledge about this stuff. You thought you can to wind up me? LOL!
A guy who read 10 times the Avesta and begin to learn it by heart
can analyze every old Indo-Iranian texts.

Btw in Indo-Iranian language has Yellow and Rain the same root!
But Blond has something to do with hairs not like Yellow and Rain!

So go and bring me real arguments not something like that!

LOL... :D
Wow very colorful post but yeah,as Polak said,Croats are Slavs through and through.:P

Zrinski
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 12:48 AM
Wow very colorful post but yeah,as Polak said,Croats are Slavs through and through.:P
Well yes Slavic by language, what more is there? But through and through...not quite.

bocian
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 12:56 AM
Well yes Slavic by language, what more is there? But through and through...not quite.

Has anyone seen this report?

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 12:57 AM
To 10.96: With yellow drops? Since when is water yellow?
I think the whole texts is misstranslated! And we can speak no where from any blond hairs. Also it is strange that there is nowhere use BLOND but everytime yellow/wet/sprinkle...! I am not an expert of Rig Veda and I had not time to yet to read it because I am deepened on my Iranian studies!
But how I can see is that the guy who translated the texts to English was swamped with this. The special thing on Indo-Iranian languages is that one word can have 10 meanings what we can mostly find only in Indo-Iranian languages. On Persian shir can mean milk, lion or tap. You see 3 words who has not real connection. The connection was maybe for 6000 years a long time befor the RigVeda was write. Also when we thought that the translation was for 100 years and the Sanskrit dictionary was not so greate then it sure that he misstranslated the whole texts. To use this translation for any proof is so laughable and I get advise everyone who will speak about this stuff learn Sanskrit or get a good Sanskrit dictionary and learn the ground grammar like me to understand those texts.
;)

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 01:09 AM
Yes Shapur.. Bedouins
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
And Hg 9 marker's popular name is Jewish/Semitic..
http://www.dnaconsulting.ws/conversion.html
Anthropologically connected with Semitic element and in mix with Caucasoids - Armenoidal race


THE RIG VEDA DESCRIBES RACIAL CONFLICT
Quotes from the Rig Veda, the original Holy Book of the Aryan conquerors of India (which has now been corrupted but is still to this day in use as the main Hindu religious text) contains a great many references to the race of the conquerors and the conquered.
According to the Rig Veda, the leader of the Aryan invasion was one Indra, and his role in “slaying the Dasyus” (the Negroids in India) is prominent in the Rig Veda:
"Thou, Indra, art the destroyer of all the cities, the slayer of the Dasyus, the prosperer of man, the lord of the sky." - RgV. VIII 87.6
The Rig Veda goes on to use the word “black” in a number of instances to describe the Dasyu:
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb." RgV. II 20.6
THE “ARYAN COLOR” – THE RIG VEDA
The Rig Veda praises the god who "destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour." - Rg.V. III 34.9
It then goes on to thank the god who "bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters." - Rg.V. I 100.18
Black skin is repeatedly referred to with abhorrence in the Rig Veda: starting with a description of the "black skin" (`Krishnam Vacham') in RgV. IX 41.1, Sam. V I.491 and II.242.
For example in RgV. IX 73 it is said that “stormy gods who rush on like furious bulls and scatter the black skin", and it claims that “the black skin, the hated of Indra" will be swept out of heaven - RgV. IX 73.5
Rg.V. I 130.8 tells of how the “black skin” was conquered:
"Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin."
The Rig Veda thanks god for "scattering the slave bands of black descent", and for stamping out "the vile Dasyan colour." - Rg.V. II.20.7, II 12.4
It also contains this choice remark which sums up the Aryan’s opinion of their non-white subjects: "Black skin is impious" (‘Dasam varnam adharam’) -Sans., Rg.V. II.12.4
Other extracts from the Rig Veda further illustrate the sharp racial divisions in this time:
Indra - 1.130.8 - "Indra in battles help his Aryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven. Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, 'twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away."
Indra - 4.16.13 - "Thou to the son of Vidathin, Rjisvan, gavest up mighty Mrgaya and Pipru. Thou smotest down the swarthy fifty thousand, and rentest forts as age consumes a garment."
Indra - 5.29.10 - "One car-wheel of the Sun thou rolledst forward, and one thou settest free to move for Kutsa. Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home o'erthrewest hostile speakers." ("Noseless Dasyus" would suggest a reference to flat nosed Negroid types)
Soma Pavamana - 9.41.1 - "ACTIVE and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, driving the black skin far away."
Soma Pavamana - 9.73.5 - "O'er Sire and Mother they have roared in unison bright with the verse of praise, burning up riteless men, Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates."
RIG VEDA DESCRIBES ARYAN GODS AS BLONDS
Indra - 10.23.4 - "With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard. When the sweet juice is shed he seeks the pleasant place, and stirs the worshipper as wind disturbs the wood."
Indra - 10.96.8 - "At the swift draught the Soma-drinker waxed in might, the Iron One with yellow beard and yellow hair. He, Lord of Tawny Coursers, Lord of fleet-foot Mares, will bear his Bay Steeds safely over all distress."
Indra - 1.9.3 - "O Lord of all men, fair of cheek, rejoice thee in the gladdening lauds, Present at these drink-offerings."
INDRA’S WEAPON: THOR’S LIGHTENING BOLT?
In what could easily be another indicator of the common cultural origins between the Rig Veda and the Indo-European gods, Indra’s greatest weapon is said, in the Rig Veda, to be a lightening bolt – identical to the weapon of Thorburn, the Northern European God:
Indra - 1.100.18 - "He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows. The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters."
Indra - 1.101.1 - "SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away. Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend."
Indra - 1.103.3 - "Armed with his bolt and trusting in his prowess he wandered shattering the forts of Dasas. Cast thy dart, knowing, Thunderer, at the Dasyu; increase the Arya's might and glory, Indra.
4 "For him who thus hath taught these human races, Maghavan, bearing a fame-worthy title, Thunderer, drawing nigh to slay the Dasyus, hath given himself the name of Son for glory."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
http://www.white-history.com/hwr5c.htm
All in all you don`t bring any real proof. You only showed that there were no nordish people described. You showed me that the Dravidians were the true inhabitants of India and the "white" Caucasoids invated it.
Caucasoids don`t need to be nordish. Also Iranians are white if you compare them with black Dravidians. We have enough proofs who showed that often in the history white don`t mean nordish but lighter then a population.
So would a Norwegian write the blacks live in south German.
Mean this that Germans are black? No! But in the contrast to Norwegians they are darker and for Norwegian standards black.
The same for Iranians. They call the Arabs and Dravidians blacks and their self white, because the skin color of them is 10 times lighter as of Arabs or Dravidians. This is only the contrasts.
Also I read often the Avesta. And I can say that no where is something of a blond race. But I can read often of noble blackhaired birth.
Which refer that the old copper tribes of Iranians were black haired.
;)

bocian
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 02:10 AM
Has anyone seen this report?

Well? Opinions? Thoughts?

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 02:40 AM
Well? Opinions? Thoughts?
Yes! Beer is proof that God loves me and wants me to be happy. :D

bocian
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 02:41 AM
Yes! Beer is proof that God loves me and wants me to be happy. :D

No kidding?
;)

Übersoldat
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:50 AM
Has anyone seen this report?

Interesting infos, thanks for posting.

From this source:


These results indicate that one of the main characteristics of the Croatian population is the great diversity of HLA haplotypes due to historical influences. The first influence is the relationship between the Croatian population and other Slavic and Baltic populations before their migration to the Balkan peninsula. The second influence is the mixture of Croatians with former populations from south-east Europe (Illirians and Thracians). The third influence is the recent admixture with neighbouring populations (Hungarians, Austrians, Italians, Germans and Turks). The pattern of haplotypes observed in this study is in agreement with this historical information.

This does not exclude the possibility of early Scyto-Sarmatian origins. Sarmatians were iranophone nation of Eastern Europe, and many of them transformed gradually into Slavic speakers. First mention of the Croat name is Tanais on Don river. on tablets of Sarmatian kings at Tanais: Sauromates (175-211 A.D.) and his son Rescuporides (ca 220 CE)



During the first century B.C., the Sarmatians penetrated westward, crossing the Don, and driving the Scythians from their former homes. About 200 A.D., the Goths took the Scythian country from the Sarmatians, and in turn adopted much of the Scytho-Sarmatian culture, becoming great horsemen and learning to live in wagons. The Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to retain their integrity in face of this Germanic onslaught. They built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, reaching as far as the Caucasus, including in it most of northwestern Turkestan. Between 350 and 374 A.D., the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom. Some of the Alans went westward with the Huns, others accompanied the Vandals to North Africa, and a few, as previously mentioned, survive in the Caucasus as Ossetes.

Although these Iranians (if the Scythians and Sarmatians really were Iranians) were replaced by Altaic speakers in southern Russia, and throughout the breadth of their Asiatic domain, this process took some time, and Iranian languages clung on for a long while in Kashgaria and in the oases of Russian Turkestan. Undoubtedly, the Scythians and their relatives were not destroyed, but were absorbed and reinccrporated.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI5.htm

Polak
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Interesting infos, thanks for posting.

From this source:



This does not exclude the possibility of early Scyto-Sarmatian origins. Sarmatians were iranophone nation of Eastern Europe, and many of them transformed gradually into Slavic speakers. First mention of the Croat name is Tanais on Don river. on tablets of Sarmatian kings at Tanais: Sauromates (175-211 A.D.) and his son Rescuporides (ca 220 CE)




http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI5.htm




Most people are missing the real issue here.

When I say Croats are Slavs through and through, I mean they are very similar, if not identical, to other Slavs.

All Slavs have steppe Iranian roots...Poles, Russians, Croats, Serbs...that can't be denied.

But these roots don't mean that Slavs are Iranian today.

The Iranian nations of the north helped to form our ethnicity, but they were only one part of the puzzle.

Today, Croats are Slavs through and through.

They are no more Iranian than the Ukes or southern Russians, that's for sure. And probably no more Iranian than most Slav speakers.

Croats carry a lot of R1a, and a lot of the Slavic 1Ib....I say Slavic, because this 1Ib is most common in Slavs, and it's very different from the Germanic 1Ic. It's also a bit different from the other 1Ib strains found in southern Europe.

Croats are also very similar to other Slavs in terms of HLA.

There are no arguments anyone has yet shown me that make Croats Iranian, or significantly Iranian, or more Iranian than other Slavs.

Also, Croats are not any more closer to Germanic or Celtic populations than northern Slavs.

More detailed data from the last few months has shown that clearly.

So, anyone wanna give me something more? I'd love to see it, I really would.

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Interesting infos, thanks for posting.

From this source:



This does not exclude the possibility of early Scyto-Sarmatian origins. Sarmatians were iranophone nation of Eastern Europe, and many of them transformed gradually into Slavic speakers. First mention of the Croat name is Tanais on Don river. on tablets of Sarmatian kings at Tanais: Sauromates (175-211 A.D.) and his son Rescuporides (ca 220 CE)




http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI5.htmYes a Scytho-Sarmatian origin is really possible.
Also there is a theory from a famous scientist who think,
that the Near East and the Balkan were already Indo-European.
But later a so called "Aryan" language came by war and expansion of the people to Europe and replace the original IE language of Europe.
Also the founds of Sarmatian skulls show a Dinaric/Irano-Afghan/Armenoid mix which you can say as Iranoid! Also when we think about the traditional Crotian folk stories.
But all what happen the Croatian nation has direct IE ancestors from their genetical view.


;)

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Most people are missing the real issue here.

When I say Croats are Slavs through and through, I mean they are very similar, if not identical, to other Slavs.

All Slavs have steppe Iranian roots...Poles, Russians, Croats, Serbs...that can't be denied.

But these roots don't mean that Slavs are Iranian today.

The Iranian nations of the north helped to form our ethnicity, but they were only one part of the puzzle.

Today, Croats are Slavs through and through.

They are no more Iranian than the Ukes or southern Russians, that's for sure. And probably no more Iranian than most Slav speakers.

Croats carry a lot of R1a, and a lot of the Slavic 1Ib....I say Slavic, because this 1Ib is most common in Slavs, and it's very different from the Germanic 1Ic. It's also a bit different from the other 1Ib strains found in southern Europe.

Croats are also very similar to other Slavs in terms of HLA.

There are no arguments anyone has yet shown me that make Croats Iranian, or significantly Iranian, or more Iranian than other Slavs.

Also, Croats are not any more closer to Germanic or Celtic populations than northern Slavs.

More detailed data from the last few months has shown that clearly.

So, anyone wanna give me something more? I'd love to see it, I really would.
Look Polak you use a study where 58! Croatians were tested.
I read only one study about paternal HGs!
Also the fact that Croatian has many Iranian words.
Or explain me why Croatians use the word Dushman for enemy like all Iranian people? An Iranian influence is not deniable. I will speak as first from an Iranian influence. Maybe some one have here more studies, because I know only one? ;)

Zrinski
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 02:48 PM
@Polak: Ib is not slavic haplotype but autochtonous balkan haplotype which spread in eastern europe. It is closely related to other I haplotypes namely Ia and Ic.

@Bocian: interesting stuff. It confirms what I have been saying all the time.... ;)

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 02:53 PM
Are you for real Shapur???

The word Dushman exists in Serbian and other languages in the Balkans... it's probably imported through Turks.

The rest of the words you mentioned, all these words aren't strictly Croatian but exist in ALL Slavic languages ( result of Sarmatians and Slavs beign closely related ), and it's also what happens when Slavic languages belong to the same IE Satem family of languages that Iranian languages belong to. No big weird thing. Lithuanian is close to Sanskrit.

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 03:02 PM
Are you for real Shapur???

The word Dushman exists in Serbian and other languages in the Balkans... it's probably imported through Turks.

The rest of the words you mentioned, all these words aren't strictly Croatian but exist in ALL Slavic languages ( result of Sarmatians and Slavs beign closely related ), and it's also what happens when Slavic languages belong to the same IE Satem family of languages that Iranian languages belong to. No big weird thing. Lithuanian is close to Sanskrit.
We have also other samples. I read somewhere that in old Croatian texts the frequence of Iranian words i by 20%! And that only 20% of the old Crotian language was Slavic!

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Where did you read that? In the Croatian-Persian Friendship Journal?
Whatever you're trying to prove here, you're doing a poor and annoying job.
Whatever 'Iranian' word you've found in Croatian, it also exists in Serbian and other Slavic languages. By that you're confirming that Slavs and Sarmatians are close ( just like it's said in many history texts ), but your little theory that Croats are Persians doesn't work.

Croats are a European nation, Persians are middle-eastern.

rusalka
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 03:38 PM
There are similar words in Farsi and French too, does that mean the French are also Iranian? It's about IE languages, all IE languages, to an extent, share some vocabulary and grammar rules. I don't see what the big deal is.

Vojvoda
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 03:55 PM
The word Dushman exists in Serbian and other languages in the Balkans... it's probably imported through Turks.
I had a conversation with a Turk one day about that and he told me that they borrowed those words from us or that they are old Balkanic words that don't belong to anyone.Who knows really.

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:04 PM
Interesting.

We have no idea how many words that we use are of
old Balkanic, Illyrian and Thracian origin.

Perhaps many Slavic words were just the same
as in these languages ( and also closely related to Lydian, Luwian and other extinct Anatolian IE languages ).

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:29 PM
LOL! IE make not simmilarities like that. Which simmiliarties with Farsi and French? The Iranian languages changed by a special way k->s, th->h, e/u/a->a.
So when we find a word which is from old Iranian then it is IRANIAN and not IE.
You can find an IE word which is near to it but not simmilar.
And when we find know old Iranian words in Croatian then this had nothing to do with IE but with old Iranian.
:D

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:40 PM
LOL! IE make not simmilarities like that. Which simmiliarties with Farsi and French? The Iranian languages changed by a special way k->s, th->h, e/u/a->a.
So when we find a word which is from old Iranian then it is IRANIAN and not IE.
You can find an IE word which is near to it but not simmilar.
And when we find know old Iranian words in Croatian then this had nothing to do with IE but with old Iranian.
:D

Uh huh. And when you find that same 'old Iranian word' in ALL other Slavic languages, what does that say to you?

:lol You've been trolling for quite some time here. How come it still hasn't become boring to you?
If someone was joking around and made up a DB1c haplogroup existing among Croats, you'd say the DB1c exists among Persians too. :eyes

Vojvoda
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:44 PM
The DB1c haplogroup exists among Croats and also Persians as well.Sorry, no source available at the moment.

EDIT- Damn you, AWAR!:D

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Uh huh. And when you find that same 'old Iranian word' in ALL other Slavic languages, what does that say to you?

:lol You've been trolling for quite some time here. How come it still hasn't become boring to you?
If someone was joking around and made up a DB1c haplogroup existing among Croats, you'd say the DB1c exists among Persians too. :eyesFirst I am not Persian! Second read some expert books of this stuff and then you can discuss with me on the same level!

Polak
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:11 PM
@Polak: Ib is not slavic haplotype but autochtonous balkan haplotype which spread in eastern europe. It is closely related to other I haplotypes namely Ia and Ic.

@Bocian: interesting stuff. It confirms what I have been saying all the time.... ;)


There's no evidence that 1Ib and 1Ic are related haplotypes.

If you have any such proof, then show me.

Übersoldat
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Whatever 'Iranian' word you've found in Croatian, it also exists in Serbian and other Slavic languages.

Croatian accents - Čakavian and Kajkavian are distant to Serbian, containing many words non-existing in Serbian.
If you observe royal glagolic scriptures like Baska tablet you can notice Old Croatian was Slavic, but different in respect to Serbian, much like Bulgarian or Slovenian are now. Modern linguistic similarity of Croatian and Serbian is mostly the result of 19. century linguist reformations of Ljudevit Gaj in Croatia and V.S. Karađić in Serbia. This simmilarrity is also the product of Yugoslav hybridization and "Serbo-Croatian"

Take a look at the ORIGINAL Croatian tongue, and try to reed it:

(Tablet from Baška, king Zvonimirs royal inscription on glagolic letter):

Old-Croatian

AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA AZ'
OPAT' DR'ZhIHA PISAH SE O LEDNINE JuZhE
DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V'
DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu I SVEDO -
MI ZhUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) -
CE PRB'NEBZhA S' POSL' VIN(0)DOLE JaK(O)V' V O-
TOCE DA IZhE TO POREChE KL'NI I BO(G) I *BI* AP(OSTO)LA I *G* E -
VANJELISTI I S(VE)TAJa LUCIJa AM(E)N' DA IZhE SDE ZhIVE -
T' MOLI ZA NE BOGA AZ OPAT' DBROVIT' Z' -
DAH' CREK'V' SIJu I SVOEJu BRATIJu S DEV -
ETIJu V' DNI K'NEZA KOS'M'TA OBLAD -
AJuChAGO V'SU K'RAINU I BJeShE V' T' DNI M -
IKULA V' OTOCh'CI S' SVETUJu LUCIJu V' EDINO

Modern Croatian (Serb influenced)

Ja, u ime Oca i Sina i Duha Svetoga. Ja
opat Držiha pisah ovo o ledini koju
dade Zvonimir, kralj hrvatski, u
svoj dane, svetoj Luciji. I svjedo-če mi Desimir, župan u Krbavi, Mratin u Li-
ci, Pribineg zastupnik u Vinodolu i Jakov na o-
toku. Tko to poreče, neka je proklet od Boga i 12 apostola i 4 e-
vanđelista i svete Lucije. Amen. Da tko ovdje živi,
moli za njih Boga. Ja opat Dobrovit sa-gradih ovu crkvu sa svojih deve-tero braće u dane knez Kosmata koji je vla-dao cijelom Krajinom. I bijaše u te dane samostan sv. Mi-kule u Otočcu sa crkvom sv. Lucije u jedinstvu.


English translation:

I, in the name of Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, I
abbot Drzhiha, wrote this about the plot of land which
was given by Zvonimir, the Croatian King, in
his days to St. Lucy (Sv. Lucija) and witnesses (are):
Desimir, Prefect of Krbava, Martin (Mratin) in
Lika, Pribinezha, clerk in Vinodol, Jacob (Jakov) on the
island. If anyone denies it, let him be cursed by 12 Apostles and 4
Evangelists and St. Lucy (Sv. Lucija). Let anyone who lives here
prays God for them. I abbot Dobrovit
built this church with my nine brethren
at the time of Prince Kosmat who ruled
the whole Country. In those days
Mikula was in Otochac with St. Lucy (Sv. Lucija) together.

http://www.hr/darko/gif/bassc2.jpg

Does Serbs have anything resembling? No. You canot even compare Croatian and Serbian linguistic evolution because they are totally separate. The only simmilarity betwen Croatian and Serbian is they are both Slavic.

http://www.hr/darko/etf/baska.html

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Thx Zvaci! Those scripts look like old Sarmatian inscriptions? Az is an Iranian word for I and it used by Kurds as Ez by Pashtuns as Az and by Avestan as Azam by Persians as Adam. Ja is the Slavic version I guess?

Johannes de León
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Ethnologues usually group croatian with other South Western Slavic Languages such as Slovenian and Romano-Serb, it is usually classified as Serbo-Croatian.


[ source (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=656) ]

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:30 PM
OK, Zvaci, to illustrate how little sense you make, I'll write a translation
into Serbian.

[I] AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA
As/Ja U' IME OCA I SINA I SVETOGA DUHA
( Az = as sometimes used in rural southeastern Serbia instead of 'Ja' ).

AZ' OPAT' DR'ZhIHA PISAH SE O LEDNINE JuZhE
As/Ja OPAT DRZIHA PISAH OVO O LEDINI koJU

DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V'
DAde ZVONIMIR, KRALJ HRVATSKI U

DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu
DANE SVOJE, SVETOJ LUCIJI,

I SVEDO - MI ZhUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) - CE
I SVEDOCE MI ZhUPAN DESIMIRA KRBAVE MARTIN U LICI

Etcetera etcetera. It's even more resembling Serbian if you take
into account the many dialects of Serbian language.



Does Serbs have anything resembling? No.

As I illustrated, YES, we do. You can however lie a lot, but that doesn't change the truth, you just sweep it under the rug.



You canot even compare Croatian and Serbian linguistic evolution because they are totally separate. The only simmilarity betwen Croatian and Serbian is they are both Slavic.

You are again wrong. Anyone can see the previous comparations and it doesn't take knowledge of Serbian or Croatian, or any of the dialects to notice that we're speaking about IDENTICAL languages who have many varying dialects, just like any other language.

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Here runes from my book Iranian World History - Part 1 The Expansion of the Iranian tribes

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Yes sometimes instead Ja Az? Sure it is Iranian!

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:39 PM
'Az' or 'As' is a form of 'Jas' still used among Macedonian Slavs and Southern Serbians in both forms, the 'As' and 'Jas'.

So, a Serb from some southern village will say:
'As v's traz'm'
and a Serb from a city will say:
'Ja vas trazim'

It's all a matter of dialect, and how much Slavic and other archaisms are preserved in
some area.

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Wow, Shapur, then EVERYONE is an Iranian.

'As', 'Az', 'Jas', 'Ja' are almost the same as English 'I" ( I'm )
does that mean that Anglo-Saxons are Iranians too?

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Wow, Shapur, then EVERYONE is an Iranian.

'As', 'Az', 'Jas', 'Ja' are almost the same as English 'I" ( I'm )
does that mean that Anglo-Saxons are Iranians too?
No because I->J, I->A and Az come not from Jaz but from Azam.
Maybe you could give me a word of word translation of the Old Croatian texts?
Thx! ;)

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:46 PM
No because I->J, I->A and Az come not from Jaz but from Azam.

Azam, meaning 'Ja Sam' in Serbian.


Maybe you could give me a word of word translation of the Old Croatian texts?
Thx! ;)

I already did, the bolded text is the Serbian translation of the Old Croatian text. You can see they are almost identical. It's even more similar to modern Serbian than modern Croatian.

Johannes de León
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Wow, Shapur, then EVERYONE is an Iranian.

'As', 'Az', 'Jas', 'Ja' are almost the same as English 'I" ( I'm )
does that mean that Anglo-Saxons are Iranians too? Portuguese is not iranian then. :D
Eu = I.
Já (the similar i could found) = now.
as = the plural of "the", for instance a mulher (the woman); as mulheres (the women).
Jaz (the similar i could found) = lie dead.

And this was my portuguese lesson of today. :)

btw, AWAR, from your translation it seems to me that Croatian is closer to Serbian than Portuguese to Castilian. :P

Übersoldat
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:49 PM
OK, Zvaci, to illustrate how little sense you make, I'll write a translation
into Serbian.

You had to use neo-Croatian in order to do this.



( Az = as sometimes used in rural southeastern Serbia instead of 'Ja' ).

I believe you. :anieyes


It's even more resembling Serbian if you take
into account the many dialects of Serbian language.

Well...lets not forget all Slavs came from Serbs :lol
Even the little kids know Serbs are 'nebeski narod' (the chosen people) :giggle



IDENTICAL languages who have many varying dialects, just like any other language.

lol is this letter also identical to serbian? :rotfl

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:49 PM
Azam, meaning 'Ja Sam' in Serbian.



I already did, the bolded text is the Serbian translation of the Old Croatian text. You can see they are almost identical. It's even more similar to modern Serbian than modern Croatian.
I meant if you could give me a word to word translation from Old Croatian to English? Thx! :)

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Zvaci, again what you say makes no sense at all.
Your lie has been exposed, now you're free to use all the smilies you can to try to cover it all up. Pathetic.

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 06:58 PM
1. Old Croat text
2. Serbian
3. English

[I] AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA
As/Ja U' IME OCA I SINA I SVETOGA DUHA
I, IN the NAME of the FATHER AND SON AND HOLY GHOST

AZ' OPAT' DR'ZhIHA PISAH SE O LEDNINE JuZhE
As/Ja OPAT DRZIHA PISAH OVO O LEDINI koJU
I ABBOT DRZHIHA, WROTE THIS OF A LAND ( parcel of land, plot of land ) WHICH.

DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V'
DAde ZVONIMIR, KRALJ HRVATSKI U
GAVE ZVONIMIR< KING of CROATS IN

DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu
DANE SVOJE, SVETOJ LUCIJI,
DAYS of HIS, SAINT LUCIA


I SVEDO - MI ZhUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) - CE
I SVEDOCE MI ZhUPAN DESIMIRA KRBAVE MARTIN U LICI
AND WITNESS BE(is) ZhUPAN ( zhupan = noble, feudal lord ) of DESIMIR KRBAVA in LIKA.

Shapur
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Thx! ;)

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 09:25 PM
OK, Shapur, but read it slow this time :P.

Old Croatian language
Serbian language
English language

AZ = JA ( also JAS and AS ) = I
V' = U = IN
IME = IME = NAME
OTCA = OCA = FATHER
I = I = AND
S(I)NA = SINA = SON
SVETAGO = SVETOGA = HOLY
DUHA = DUHA = GHOST

OPAT' = OPAT = ABBOT
PISAH = PISAH = WROTE
SE = OVO = THIS
O = O = ABOUT
LEDNINE = LEDINE = LANDS, plots of land
JuZhE = KOJU ( JU ) = WHICH

DA = DADE, DAO, DA = GAVE
KRAL' = KRALJ = KING
HR'VAT'SKI = HRVATSKI = CROATIAN ( of the Croats)

DNI = DANI, DANE, DAN = DAYS
SVOE = SVOJE = HIS ( belongs to someone )
SVETUJu = SVETU = SAINT ( holy )

etc.

White Falcon
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 10:38 PM
:throwup :[]!! :headbang :burst :shoot :stabbed

Awar
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 10:49 PM
:throwup :[]!! :headbang :burst :shoot :stabbed

???

White Falcon
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 12:21 AM
???
sick of this thread , sick of the thread starter who was provocateur,
sick of bickering , sick of Shapur
and everything of this was said in "What are Croats?" wasnt it?

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 02:43 AM
Yeah, I agree that this topic has been molested for far too long.
Perhaps we need a Croat moderator ;)

Zrinski
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 02:44 AM
There's no evidence that 1Ib and 1Ic are related haplotypes.

If you have any such proof, then show me.Yes they are different...thats why they are all called I haplotype... :rotfl

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:06 AM
It wouldn't be the only haplotype that is labeled with the same
letter that other completely unrelated haplotypes are labeled.
Are you saying that all R haplogroups are the same?

rusalka
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:27 AM
LOL! IE make not simmilarities like that. Which simmiliarties with Farsi and French? The Iranian languages changed by a special way k->s, th->h, e/u/a->a.
So when we find a word which is from old Iranian then it is IRANIAN and not IE.
You can find an IE word which is near to it but not simmilar.
And when we find know old Iranian words in Croatian then this had nothing to do with IE but with old Iranian.
:D
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you would make it easier for me to understand your post, I'll be happy to reply in more detail. The only thing I can make out of it is that you don't think there are any similarities between Iranian and French which I never said so myself. Similarity of two languages and having similar words is a very different thing. Take the word brother for example:

English - brother
Turkish and Kurdish - birader
Persian - baradar

As for its etymological information:

brother - O.E. broţor, from P.Gmc. *brothar, from PIE base *bhrater (cf. Gk. phratér "a brother," L. frater "a brother," O.Ir. brathir, Skt. bhrátár- "a brother," Goth. bróţar "a brother," O.Prus. brati "brother," O.C.S. bratru).

So, does that now mean that Iranians, Anglo-Saxons, Gothic tribes, Turks and Kurds are all related?

As for similar words in French and Iranian, here is an example of cognates, the verb "is"

English: is
German: ist
French: est (ę)
Latin: est
Greek: esti
Sanskrit: asti
Persian: est (ę)

To me it's rather clear that the reason for common words in Persian and any other IE rooted language is just that: IE roots.

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:31 AM
English: is
German: ist
French: est (ę)
Latin: est
Greek: esti
Sanskrit: asti
Persian: est (ę)


Add Serbian and Croatian 'Jeste' to that list :)

rusalka
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:36 AM
Add Serbian and Croatian 'Jeste' to that list :)
I thought Serbian and Croatian is the same language. ;)

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:45 AM
:p

Übersoldat
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:19 AM
I thought Serbian and Croatian is the same language. ;)

:nope

Neutral source:


Croatian language

The Croatian language is a language of the western group of South Slavic languages which is used primarily by the Croats. It is one of the standard versions of the Central-South Slavic diasystem, formerly (and still frequently) called Serbo-Croatian.

(...)

The Serbian connection

The 19th century language development overlapped with the upheavals that befell Serbian language. It was Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, an energetic and resourceful Serbian language and culture reformer, whose scriptory and orthographic stylisation of Serbian linguistic folk idiom made a radical break with the past; until his activity in the first half of the 19th century, Serbs had been using Serbian variant of Church Slavonic and a hybrid Russian-Slavonic language. His "Serbian Dictionary", published in Vienna 1818 (along with the appended grammar), was the single most significant work of Serbian literary culture that shaped the profile of Serbian language (and, the first Serbian dictionary and grammar thus far).

Following the incentive of Austrian bureaucracy which preferred some kind of "unified" Croatian and Serbian languages for purely practical administrative reasons, in 1850, Slovenian philologist Franc Miklošič initiated a meeting of two Serbian philologists and writers, Vuk Karadžić and Đuro Daničić together with five Croatian "men of letters": Ivan Mažuranić, Dimitrija Demetar, Stjepan Pejaković, Ivan Kukuljević and Vinko Pacel. This, so-called "Vienna agreement" on the basic features of unified "Croatian or Serbian" or "Serbo-Croatian" language was signed by all eight participants (including Miklošič).

Karadžić's influence on Croatian standard idiom was only one of the reforms for Croats, mostly in some aspects of grammar and orthography; many other changes he made to Serbian were already present in Croatian. Both languages shared the common basis of South Slavic neoštokavian dialect, but the Vienna agreement didn't have any effect in reality until a more "unified" standard appeared at the end of 19th century when Croatian sympathisers of Vuk Karadžić, so-called "Croatian vukovites", wrote first modern (from the vantage point of dominating neogrammarian linguistic school) grammars, orthographies and dictionaries of language they called "Croatian or Serbian" (Serbs preferred Serbo-Croatian). Monumental grammar authored by pre-eminent fin de sičcle Croatian linguist Tomislav Maretić (Grammar and stylistics of Croatian or Serbian language) and dictionary by Broz and Iveković (Croatian dictionary) temporarily fixed the elastic (grammatically, syntactically, lexically) standard of this hybrid language.

Unification and separation with Serbian

(...)

Croatian language is today the official language of the Republic of Croatia and, along with Bosnian and Serbian, one of three official languages of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Croatian_language


Croatian linguistic purism

One of the features of Croatian language, common to many Central-European languages (Czech, German, Polish) is word coinage.

Croatian tradition of neologisms and linguistic purism goes back to the earliest documents of literacy (11th to 12th century), but it was in the Renaissance Croatian literature that this characteristic has become dominant.

(...)

The purism was suppressed during the Yugoslav period, from 1918 to 1990, while the Croatian language had been submitted to forced "unification" with the Serbian language.

The only brief exception was in the puppet "Independent State of Croatia", 1941 to 1945, when totalitarian dictatorship of Ante Pavelić pushed purist tendencies to extremes. No Croatian dictionaries or grammars were published during this period because of the opposition of the Croatian linguists. This era is best covered in Marko Samardžija's "Hrvatski jezik u Nezavisnoj Državi Hrvatskoj", (Croatian language in Independent State of Croatia), 1993.

To understand the processes during the Yugoslav period, one must take into account at least three factors:

Serbian language is "unfriendly" toward neologisms. One of basic tendencies of this language is to prefer loan-words over neologisms and calques. Ironically, a non-negligible part of Slavic neologisms in this langauge was adopted from Croatian, for instance "računovodstvo" (bank accountancy) or "vodovod" (waterworks).
Forced "unification" into one, Serbo-Croatian language was preferred by neogrammarian Croatian linguists (the most notable example was influential philologist and translator Tomislav Maretić). The recipe was simple: if a term is described by two words in Croatian (a neologism and Greek/Latin Europeanism) and one word in Serbian (Europeanism) — the "choice" was to suppress Croatian neologism and "promote" Europeanism. For instance, "geography" is "geografija" in Serbian, and "zemljopis" and "geografija" in Croatian. The policy was to try to establish "geografija" as the norm and to eliminate "zemljopis". However, this school was virtually extinct by 1930s and since then Croatian linguists have been unanimous in re-affirmation of purist tradition.
While during monarchist Yugoslavia "Serbo-Croatian" unification was motivated mainly by the Greater Serbia policy, in the Communist period (1945 to 1990) it was the by-product of Communist centralism and "internationalism". This period is described in the "Novi Sad agreement" and "Declaration" section of Croatian language page. Whatever the intentions, the result was the same: the suppression of one of basic features of Croatian language.
In Communist Yugoslavia, Serbian language and terminology were "official" in a few areas: the military, diplomacy, Federal Yugoslav institutions (various institutes and research centres), state media and jurisprudence at Yugoslav level. Also, language in Bosnia and Herzegovina was gradually Serbianised in all levels of educational system and the republic's administration. For Croatian tradition of neologisms, these were "no go" areas.

No Croatian dictionaries (apart from the historical "Croatian or Serbian" dictionaries, conceived in the 19th century) appeared until 1985, when Communist centralism was well in the process of decay.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Croatian_linguistic_purism

rusalka
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:29 AM
Thanks for the information, I only speak a very limited Serbian (which my family didn't even call "Serbian") consisting of mostly names of dishes, a couple of folk tongue twisters and some sayings, and I'm certainly not the authority on either Croatian or Serbian. I only know for a fact that when Croats speak Croatian to Serbians to reply in Serbian, they can get on perfectly fine. The detail on word coinages in Croatian being very common was definitely interesting. Most of the time I support making up new words instead of borrowing the English word for it and changing it into one's native language's transliteration.

In any case, I certainly don't think Croatian and Iranian share a more specific bond other than the common PIE origin.

Polak
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 08:59 AM
Yes they are different...thats why they are all called I haplotype... :rotfl



Now you're just being ignorant.

It depends on how Y-chromosome markers are typed.

1Ib and 1Ic need not be related.

If you type them using a different background, not Haplotype I, then they don't show any links.

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 12:47 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you would make it easier for me to understand your post, I'll be happy to reply in more detail. The only thing I can make out of it is that you don't think there are any similarities between Iranian and French which I never said so myself. Similarity of two languages and having similar words is a very different thing. Take the word brother for example:

English - brother
Turkish and Kurdish - birader
Persian - baradar

As for its etymological information:

brother - O.E. broţor, from P.Gmc. *brothar, from PIE base *bhrater (cf. Gk. phratér "a brother," L. frater "a brother," O.Ir. brathir, Skt. bhrátár- "a brother," Goth. bróţar "a brother," O.Prus. brati "brother," O.C.S. bratru).

So, does that now mean that Iranians, Anglo-Saxons, Gothic tribes, Turks and Kurds are all related?

As for similar words in French and Iranian, here is an example of cognates, the verb "is"

English: is
German: ist
French: est (ę)
Latin: est
Greek: esti
Sanskrit: asti
Persian: est (ę)

To me it's rather clear that the reason for common words in Persian and any other IE rooted language is just that: IE roots.
LOL!!! :D Look I study linguistic not something like you to set some words beside each other and say oh look how equal. The Indo-Europeans languages developed by changing of special voices.
So is in Persian is not east how you write it is ast because all i/e/u became in Iranian languages A! Man Shapur hastam. I am Shapur!
On Kurdish the sound change from a to ae. So on Kurdish Maen Shapur destaem. I am Shapur. Kurdish and Persian or both Iranian languages and they are so simmilar that every who speak one of these language could learn the other in 2 months perfectly! I showed you that in Croatian language and mostly in the dialects of Krk are the Indo-Iranian words by 20% the Slavic by 50% and the rest by other languages. Ja can never be Jas or something like that. This is foolish because the original word of IE was so that Ja was developed from it and by Iranian languages it was Azem/Azam in later periods am/em was not more in use so it is today Az. By Kurds it is Aez or Ez.
;)

rusalka
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 02:26 PM
LOL!!! :D Look I study linguistic not something like you to set some words beside each other and say oh look how equal. The Indo-Europeans languages developed by changing of special voices.
So is in Persian is not east how you write it is ast because all i/e/u became in Iranian languages A! Man Shapur hastam. I am Shapur!
On Kurdish the sound change from a to ae. So on Kurdish Maen Shapur destaem. I am Shapur. Kurdish and Persian or both Iranian languages and they are so simmilar that every who speak one of these language could learn the other in 2 months perfectly! I showed you that in Croatian language and mostly in the dialects of Krk are the Indo-Iranian words by 20% the Slavic by 50% and the rest by other languages. Ja can never be Jas or something like that. This is foolish because the original word of IE was so that Ja was developed from it and by Iranian languages it was Azem/Azam in later periods am/em was not more in use so it is today Az. By Kurds it is Aez or Ez.
;)
First of all, you do not know what I study, so you might as well stop guessing and "LOL"ing.

Secondly, I have nothing against Iranian and Persian culture and have always support Persians' claims in their non-Arabic roots, I know how mad it makes many Iranians to be put into the same category with Iraqis and Syrians etc. and rightly so.

But thirdly; I still don't have a clear idea about what you are trying to prove. I wish your linguistic studies have given you a clearer idea on English semantics as well, alas, that is not the case. What I'm saying is: all IE languages have common roots and to an extent common grammar rules. It is apparent in the PIE words like deiwos which is zeus in Greek, deus in Latin, dieu in French etc. There are common roots in all Indo-European languages because they are Indo-European languages. I'm not saying French or old Gothic language is Iranian -that is absurd- but I think it's equally absurd to claim Croatian is actually Iranian based on the same system.

Of course talking to ideologically determined people is like talking to a brick wall, so might as well reply all "LOL LOLOLOLOL" ing (I'm beginning to think it's an Eastern thing) and "refute" my claims in some unique syntax so that it looks like you are actually saying something logical.

I am not convinced that Croatians are more Iranian (a npeople they supposedly broke up with more a dozen centuries ago) than Slavic (a people they have been living and mingling with for the last millenium and a half).

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 02:26 PM
So, you're saying that Extinct Croatian ( Slavic ) 'az' is unrelated to the nearby Slavic languages in which it exists as 'as' and 'jas', but it's related to 'azem' and a language thousands of miles away. Ridiculous.

Next up: Shapur explains how words 'Tele' and 'Vision' recently originated from the word 'television'. :P

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:14 PM
First of all, you do not know what I study, so you might as well stop guessing and "LOL"ing.

Secondly, I have nothing against Iranian and Persian culture and have always support Persians' claims in their non-Arabic roots, I know how mad it makes many Iranians to be put into the same category with Iraqis and Syrians etc. and rightly so.

But thirdly; I still don't have a clear idea about what you are trying to prove. I wish your linguistic studies have given you a clearer idea on English semantics as well, alas, that is not the case. What I'm saying is: all IE languages have common roots and to an extent common grammar rules. It is apparent in the PIE words like deiwos which is zeus in Greek, deus in Latin, dieu in French etc. There are common roots in all Indo-European languages because they are Indo-European languages. I'm not saying French or old Gothic language is Iranian -that is absurd- but I think it's equally absurd to claim Croatian is actually Iranian based on the same system.

Of course talking to ideologically determined people is like talking to a brick wall, so might as well reply all "LOL LOLOLOLOL" ing (I'm beginning to think it's an Eastern thing) and "refute" my claims in some unique syntax so that it looks like you are actually saying something logical.

I am not convinced that Croatians are more Iranian (a npeople they supposedly broke up with more a dozen centuries ago) than Slavic (a people they have been living and mingling with for the last millenium and a half).
Look we don`t say oh it is equal it must be so or so.
We know how proto-Slavic voiced and we know how old Iranian voice!
So we have a big dicitionary about the old Iranian and the proto-Slavic language. So how there come IRANIAN words in Croatian?
Why it is Dushman an 100% clear Iranian word.
When the Croatian would use a word which has 100% old Iranian origin and you can not find it in this form in proto-Slavic then it is Iranian word.
Also there were enough studies about the Croatian language an its Iranian words.
And because my English. I am not so good in English but good enough to understand you well. Btw I am more fixed on Germanistik/Iranistik and not on Angelistik so my German language is perfect. :D

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:27 PM
So, you're saying that Extinct Croatian ( Slavic ) 'az' is unrelated to the nearby Slavic languages in which it exists as 'as' and 'jas', but it's related to 'azem' and a language thousands of miles away. Ridiculous.

Next up: Shapur explains how words 'Tele' and 'Vision' recently originated from the word 'television'. :P
Tele is an Arabic word as first for you. Second we have enough proofs of Iranian words in Croatian. The old Iranian languages are like an art and not every can understand and feel these languages! :)

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:29 PM
I already refuted that claim,
Dushman also appears in Serbian and other Balkan languages.


You're out to prove that Croats are Iranian, even though you don't
have any facts that support that claim. You don't stop even when
your silly 'evidence' are ripped to shreds.

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:34 PM
I already refuted that claim,
Dushman also appears in Serbian and other Balkan languages.


You're out to prove that Croats are Iranian, even though you don't
have any facts that support that claim. You don't stop even when
your silly 'evidence' are ripped to shreds.
Sure it is also in other southeastern languages in use.
When we think about the Bulgars who are racial Iranians then it is clear.
Half Europe were controlled by Iranians.
Paradise also an Iranian word come in every language in the world.
But we speak about percentages about 20%!
Not 1-2%!

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Sure it is also in other southeastern languages in use.
When we think about the Bulgars who are racial Iranians then it is clear.
Half Europe were controlled by Iranians.
Paradise also an Iranian word come in every language in the world.
But we speak about percentages about 20%!
Not 1-2%!

Again, you make no sense. Dushman is a word commonly used in Serbia.
Does that mean Serbs are Iranians?

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:44 PM
Again, you make no sense. Dushman is a word commonly used in Serbia.
Does that mean Serbs are Iranians?
Not Crotian and also not Serbian is an Iranian language!
Dushman is an IRANIAN word this mean there were for a time conntact between Slavs and Iranians. We know that the Crotian language was for 1000-1500 years not Slavic and became step for step Slavic.
Also the dialects of Krk use 20% Iranian words.
In Serbian language you will find maybe 1-2%!

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:51 PM
bhrata = brat (brother)
gatha = ganga (hymn)
behsha = besjeda - older bjesys (speak)
devas = djeva (girl - goddess)
angira = andjeo - older angjel (angel)
visa = ves - selo (village)
maria = marjan (hero)
vaeyah = zavicaj - older vejaan (homeland)
;)

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:56 PM
In Serbian language you will find maybe 1-2%!

Oh, and please then, tell me how many words in Croatian are of Iranian
origin, if 1-2% is in Serbian. :eyes

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Oh, and please then, tell me how many words in Croatian are of Iranian
origin, if 1-2% is in Serbian. :eyes
In general schoolary Crotian I don`t know but the dialects of Krk have 20%.

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:01 PM
bhrata = brat (brother) = brat in Serbian also ( brother )
gatha = ganga (hymn) = ganga ( clan song )
behsha = besjeda - older bjesys (speak) = beseda ( speech )
devas = djeva (girl - goddess) = deva, devojka ( girl )
angira = andjeo - older angjel (angel) = andjeo ( angel )
visa = ves - selo (village) = selo ( village )
maria = marjan (hero) = marjan ( warlike ), from the Roman god of war Mars. ( it's a personal name also )
vaeyah = zavicaj - older vejaan (homeland) = Zavicaj ( homeland )

Your 'evidence' only proves that whatever percentage the Croats are 'Iranian', the Serbs and other Slavs are also.

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:06 PM
In general schoolary Crotian I don`t know but the dialects of Krk have 20%.

Post some examples of Iranian words used on Krk.
If I can translate them, then they aren't so Iranian.

Zrinski
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Now you're just being ignorant.

It depends on how Y-chromosome markers are typed.

1Ib and 1Ic need not be related.

If you type them using a different background, not Haplotype I, then they don't show any links.


Ib and Ic are subgroups of haplotype I... :rotfl

White Falcon
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Perhaps we need a Croat moderator ;)
It should be Zvaci :D

Zrinski
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:17 PM
gatha = ganga (hymn) = ganga ( clan song )
It's gange and it's old croatian song probably of illyrian origin.


devas = djeva (girl - goddess) = deva, devojka ( girl )
Deva? You mean as a Camel? :rofl


visa = ves - selo (village) = selo ( village )
You don't use 'ves'.


maria = marjan (hero) = marjan ( warlike ), from the Roman god of war Mars. ( it's a personal name also )
Extremly rare in Serbs. Croatian banner was also called 'marjan'


vaeyah = zavicaj - older vejaan (homeland) = Zavicaj ( homeland )
Don't you Serbs use otadžbina? ;)

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:25 PM
It's gange and it's old croatian song probably of illyrian origin.

Yes, probably.


Deva? You mean as a Camel? :rofl

It's the root word to Devojka, Djeva, Djevojka, Devica, Djevoja itd.


You don't use 'ves'.

Not that I know of.



Extremly rare in Serbs. Croatian banner was also called 'marjan'

It's rare now, wasn't until a couple of decades ago.
I doubt many Croats know what Marjan means.



Don't you Serbs use otadžbina? ;)

Yes, and a load of other synonims.

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 04:26 PM
It should be Zvaci :D

I vote for Shapur :rotfl

Shapur
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Many Iranian name their daughters Marjan.

White Falcon
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Many Iranian name their daughters Marjan.Here in Croatia it's male name :D

Odin Of Ossetia
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Yes Shapur.. Bedouins
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
And Hg 9 marker's popular name is Jewish/Semitic..
http://www.dnaconsulting.ws/conversion.html
Anthropologically connected with Semitic element and in mix with Caucasoids - Armenoidal race


THE RIG VEDA DESCRIBES RACIAL CONFLICT
Quotes from the Rig Veda, the original Holy Book of the Aryan conquerors of India (which has now been corrupted but is still to this day in use as the main Hindu religious text) contains a great many references to the race of the conquerors and the conquered.
According to the Rig Veda, the leader of the Aryan invasion was one Indra, and his role in “slaying the Dasyus” (the Negroids in India) is prominent in the Rig Veda:
"Thou, Indra, art the destroyer of all the cities, the slayer of the Dasyus, the prosperer of man, the lord of the sky." - RgV. VIII 87.6
The Rig Veda goes on to use the word “black” in a number of instances to describe the Dasyu:
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb." RgV. II 20.6
THE “ARYAN COLOR” – THE RIG VEDA
The Rig Veda praises the god who "destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour." - Rg.V. III 34.9
It then goes on to thank the god who "bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters." - Rg.V. I 100.18
Black skin is repeatedly referred to with abhorrence in the Rig Veda: starting with a description of the "black skin" (`Krishnam Vacham') in RgV. IX 41.1, Sam. V I.491 and II.242.
For example in RgV. IX 73 it is said that “stormy gods who rush on like furious bulls and scatter the black skin", and it claims that “the black skin, the hated of Indra" will be swept out of heaven - RgV. IX 73.5
Rg.V. I 130.8 tells of how the “black skin” was conquered:
"Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin."
The Rig Veda thanks god for "scattering the slave bands of black descent", and for stamping out "the vile Dasyan colour." - Rg.V. II.20.7, II 12.4
It also contains this choice remark which sums up the Aryan’s opinion of their non-white subjects: "Black skin is impious" (‘Dasam varnam adharam’) -Sans., Rg.V. II.12.4
Other extracts from the Rig Veda further illustrate the sharp racial divisions in this time:
Indra - 1.130.8 - "Indra in battles help his Aryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven. Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, 'twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away."
Indra - 4.16.13 - "Thou to the son of Vidathin, Rjisvan, gavest up mighty Mrgaya and Pipru. Thou smotest down the swarthy fifty thousand, and rentest forts as age consumes a garment."
Indra - 5.29.10 - "One car-wheel of the Sun thou rolledst forward, and one thou settest free to move for Kutsa. Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home o'erthrewest hostile speakers." ("Noseless Dasyus" would suggest a reference to flat nosed Negroid types)
Soma Pavamana - 9.41.1 - "ACTIVE and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, driving the black skin far away."
Soma Pavamana - 9.73.5 - "O'er Sire and Mother they have roared in unison bright with the verse of praise, burning up riteless men, Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates."
RIG VEDA DESCRIBES ARYAN GODS AS BLONDS
Indra - 10.23.4 - "With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard. When the sweet juice is shed he seeks the pleasant place, and stirs the worshipper as wind disturbs the wood."
Indra - 10.96.8 - "At the swift draught the Soma-drinker waxed in might, the Iron One with yellow beard and yellow hair. He, Lord of Tawny Coursers, Lord of fleet-foot Mares, will bear his Bay Steeds safely over all distress."
Indra - 1.9.3 - "O Lord of all men, fair of cheek, rejoice thee in the gladdening lauds, Present at these drink-offerings."
INDRA’S WEAPON: THOR’S LIGHTENING BOLT?
In what could easily be another indicator of the common cultural origins between the Rig Veda and the Indo-European gods, Indra’s greatest weapon is said, in the Rig Veda, to be a lightening bolt – identical to the weapon of Thorburn, the Northern European God:
Indra - 1.100.18 - "He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows. The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters."
Indra - 1.101.1 - "SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away. Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend."
Indra - 1.103.3 - "Armed with his bolt and trusting in his prowess he wandered shattering the forts of Dasas. Cast thy dart, knowing, Thunderer, at the Dasyu; increase the Arya's might and glory, Indra.
4 "For him who thus hath taught these human races, Maghavan, bearing a fame-worthy title, Thunderer, drawing nigh to slay the Dasyus, hath given himself the name of Son for glory."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
http://www.white-history.com/hwr5c.htm





And just where down here is mentioned anything about a blond-blue-eyed race?

To see that the ancient Indo-Aryans were swarthy and dark-haired you should read the Ramayana.


The above texts of Rig Veda only describe a conflict between a relatively light swarthy race, and a black one.


Shapur, I really doubt that all those Gypsie-looking Iranians were really some kind of a ruling elite of the Slavs; but they were surely a ruling elite of the Teutons (and not just that - they were their "gods" :P ).


Check this link:


http://michalw.narod.ru/SlavicSpain.html

Plaku
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 07:06 PM
gatha = ganga (hymn)
Interesting, In Albanian (gheg dialect) kanga = song/s.

norda
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Linguistic closeness of Slavic language(s) (and less Baltic) to old Indo-Iranian is quite well known and has nothing to do with supposed Croat-Iranian similarities. Vocabularies are close in older layer.
God- Bog- Baga,
Saint -Swienty, Sventy- Spenta
Birch- Brzoza, Bereza- Buria
Mother- Matka, Mat – Mata
Son- Syn- Sunus
Brother- Brat – Bratar
Mother in Law- Swiekra- Swasru
Ewe- Owca, Avca- Awi
Cock- Kur- Kurn
Grain-Ziarno- Zarai
Plough, Socha – Sacha
Meat, Mieso, Maso- Mamsa
Cheese- Ser- Sara
Honey- Miod, Med. – Madu
Village- Wies, Wes – Wesa
Door- Drzwi, Dvery- Dwara
Fire- Ogien, Agon- Agni
Month- Miesiac, Mesac- Mas
Winter- Zima- Zim
Spring- Wiosna, Wesna- Wasanta
Knowledge- Wiedza,Veda- Weda
Two- Dwa- Dwa
Four- Cztery, Czetyre- Czetwar
Five- Pienc, Piat – Pancza
Ten- Dziesec, Deset- Daszcza

Also grammatical forms show greater similarity to extinct languages- Vedic, Sanskrit and Latin. Slavic languages (and Indo-Iranian to some degree) preserved in the pure form declension and conjugation by the change of endings and vowel “r”.

White Falcon
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 08:09 PM
OK , Lets make this thread even stupider :D

Iranians!!!!

http://www.teammelli.com/Gallery/pics/teams/TM-PEKING%20AG.jpg
http://www.teammelli.com/Gallery/pics/teams/TM%2096.jpg

http://www.teammelli.com/Gallery/pics/teams/2000-usa-tour.gif

http://www.teammelli.com/Gallery/pics/teams/Team%20LG%20cup2000.jpg

http://www.teammelli.com/Gallery/pics/teams/tm%20VS%20Ghana78.jpg

White Falcon
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Croatians !!!! the resemblance with Iranians is striking:yippee , lol ;)

http://www.soccer999.com/football/worldcup/2002/team/Croatia/team.jpg

http://www.soccer.on.ca/OntarioCup/Photo/Outdoor/2003/U16B%20T2%20Champions.jpg


http://www.amb-croatie.fr/images/mondial_vatreni.jpg

http://www.capones.net/g01goran/split16.jpg

http://www.makarska.com.hr/nogomet/tim-dinamo.jpg

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 10:08 PM
OK , Lets make this thread even stupider :D

You failed! Your last two posts are actually one of the rare that make sense here :D

Zrinski
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 10:38 PM
It's the root word to Devojka, Djeva, Djevojka, Devica, Djevoja itd.Yes maybe a root, but not actual word. I doubt someone would use 'deva' for some chick. Not to mention someone might took it wrong and think you just called her a camel. :D :P


It's rare now, wasn't until a couple of decades ago.
I doubt many Croats know what Marjan means.And I doubt many Serbs know what it means not to mention most people probably don't know what their name means. Also I must say I never heard about any Serb with that name.


Yes, and a load of other synonims.The point is that neither Croats nor Serbs will use the word 'zavičaj' or they will use it rarely mainly in designation of their local place not homeland as Shapur suggested. Croats will use 'domovina' and Serbs 'otadžbina'.
IMO zavicaj is neither Serbian nor Croatian but actually word with old slavonic roots.

btw. I think Ladic could pass for an Iranian. :D

Awar
Saturday, July 10th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Yes maybe a root, but not actual word. I doubt someone would use 'deva' for some chick. Not to mention someone might took it wrong and think you just called her a camel. :D :P

Serbs don't use the word 'deva' for Camels or any other animal.


And I doubt many Serbs know what it means not to mention most people probably don't know what their name means. Also I must say I never heard about any Serb with that name.

The popularity of certain names fluctuates. There are thousands of 50-year old people who have the name 'Sinisa', and I doubt there's more than a few dozen of younger 'Sinisa's :)

My generation ('78) was mostly named 'Dragan', 'Marko', 'Petar', a bit younger guys ( '80 and onwards ) are frequently named 'Mario', 'Marjan', 'Stefan', 'Nemanja' etc. The 90's kids usually have names with a more traditional 'sound', like: 'Aleksa', 'Dusan' etc. It's a matter of fashion.


The point is that neither Croats nor Serbs will use the word 'zavičaj' or they will use it rarely mainly in designation of their local place not homeland as Shapur suggested. Croats will use 'domovina' and Serbs 'otadžbina'.
IMO zavicaj is neither Serbian nor Croatian but actually word with old slavonic roots.

Wrong, actually the word 'Zavicaj' is very frequently used in Serbia, but not for 'home country', but for 'home land, town, village, region' etc.
One could say that Serbia is his 'Zavicaj', but more frequently you'll hear a Serb say that a specific region in Serbia is his 'Zavicaj'.

Zrinski
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 01:24 AM
Serbs don't use the word 'deva' for Camels or any other animal.
Ah yes, you use 'kamila' or soemthing like that. It is in Croatia that camel is deva. Yet another "similarity" between Croatiana and Serbian language. :rofl


My generation ('78) was mostly named 'Dragan', 'Marko', 'Petar', a bit younger guys ( '80 and onwards ) are frequently named 'Mario', 'Marjan', 'Stefan', 'Nemanja' etc. The 90's kids usually have names with a more traditional 'sound', like: 'Aleksa', 'Dusan' etc. It's a matter of fashion.
I think this is not just trend in Serbia, but in all now former Yugoslavian countries. Older people in Croatia have rather mixed names even sometimes with strong pan-slavic or from other ex-yu countries. In the few last decades though the names are more and more traditional.


Wrong, actually the word 'Zavicaj' is very frequently used in Serbia, but not for 'home country', but for 'home land, town, village, region' etc.
One could say that Serbia is his 'Zavicaj', but more frequently you'll hear a Serb say that a specific region in Serbia is his 'Zavicaj'.
The word is equally used in Croatia as well no matter what I said before. But it is not used for 'home land' but it is more "localized" term for town or region, etc...

Awar
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 02:52 AM
Ah yes, you use 'kamila' or soemthing like that. It is in Croatia that camel is deva. Yet another "similarity" between Croatiana and Serbian language. :rofl

It's a recently acquired foreign word.
I hope there aren't many Camels on the loose in Croatia :D

Zrinski
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 04:10 PM
It's a recently acquired foreign word.
Yes I know. 'kamila' is obviously word borrowed from english. Anglicizam we would say. :)


I hope there aren't many Camels on the loose in Croatia :D
We try, but hell it's a tough job. :P

Polak
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Ib and Ic are subgroups of haplotype I... :rotfl


Am I talking to a monkey here, or what? Do you read English?




The Dinaric Modal Haplotype (DMH: 16 –24–11– 11 –13, defined by DYS19 –390–391–392–393, respectively) has a focus of distribution in the Balkan peninsula and the Nordic Modal Haplotype (NMH: 14 – 23 – 10 – 11 – 13) has a focus of distribution in Scandinavia. It should be noted that two Y chromosomes having the same haplotype are not necessarily related, since the same haplotype may be observed on different backgrounds. The ancient ancestral origins of Y chromosomes are determined by unique event polymorphisms (UEPs) for which there are currently no open-access databases. By contrast, there are a few short-tandem-repeat (STR) databases, as STRs are heavily used in the forensic community. Both the DMH and the NMH are associated with Haplogroup I.

Zrinski
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 05:23 PM
You are an idiot....all Eu7/I haplotypes have common ancestry through the m170 mutation. We have three distinct sub groups of this mutation that are not related as can be seen in the exceprt you posted. This is because the m170/Eu7 haplotypes(Gravettian culture) split in two after the ice age. The third subgroup appeared later than the two.

And yes it seems I am speeking to a monkey...

Shapur
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 09:10 PM
The same HG mean nothing. Banuts have HG E like most south Europeans have HG E. Make this south Europeans Negroid? No in no way because HG E3b was developed with the proto-Caucasoid race. So the same HG I don`t mean to be the same racetype or race!

:)

Shapur
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 09:14 PM
And just where down here is mentioned anything about a blond-blue-eyed race?

To see that the ancient Indo-Aryans were swarthy and dark-haired you should read the Ramayana.


The above texts of Rig Veda only describe a conflict between a relatively light swarthy race, and a black one.


Shapur, I really doubt that all those Gypsie-looking Iranians were really some kind of a ruling elite of the Slavs; but they were surely a ruling elite of the Teutons (and not just that - they were their "gods" :P ).


Check this link:


http://michalw.narod.ru/SlavicSpain.html






Which Gypsie-looking Iranians? Have I pass something?
The Iranians were an important part of the ancient world.
Maybe Iran will one day be again so important under the flag of pan-iranism! :D

White Falcon
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Which Gypsie-looking Iranians? Have I pass something?

Those football teams I posted maybe ;)

Vojvoda
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 11:41 PM
Am I talking to a monkey here
Probably,he seems to be an idiot :D

Vojvoda
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 11:43 PM
Which Gypsie-looking Iranians? Have I pass something?
The Iranians were an important part of the ancient world.
Maybe Iran will one day be again so important under the flag of pan-iranism! :D Give it up.Croats do not look like gipsy-looking Iranians :P

Zrinski
Monday, July 12th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Probably,he seems to be an idiot :D
Thank you master, I learned from the best. :rofl

Kamangir42
Monday, July 12th, 2004, 01:43 AM
Zdravo!

As an Iranian I would have to say that Croats are not Iranians. Moreover, I could not care less even if they were.

But Iranians are not gypsies nor do we look like them. In Iran we do not have too many gypsies (certainly far less than in Europe) and we shun them. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said in Europe. Despite all the abuse I hear hurled at gypsies, it appears that some Europeans have been "fooling around" with these people who even the Indians rejected for centuries.

I wish Croats and Serbs much prosperity and peace in the future.

Zrinski
Monday, July 12th, 2004, 02:00 AM
Well said!

Awar
Monday, July 12th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Zdravo!

As an Iranian I would have to say that Croats are not Iranians. Moreover, I could not care less even if they were.

But Iranians are not gypsies nor do we look like them. In Iran we do not have too many gypsies (certainly far less than in Europe) and we shun them. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said in Europe. Despite all the abuse I hear hurled at gypsies, it appears that some Europeans have been "fooling around" with these people who even the Indians rejected for centuries.

I wish Croats and Serbs much prosperity and peace in the future.

Thank you! I wish all the best to Iranians.

Gypsies are a very divided sort. Even now, more than a thousand years after the Gypsies left India, their vast majority is still very dark, much darker and very different from Europeans, and many have Dravidian-like and Australoid-like features.

There are sadly many examples where Gypsies kidnapped, or adopted European orphans to use for begging etc.

There are also some groups of Europe, like the British "travellers" who were living a life similar to that of Gypsies, and as outcasts, they intermixed with Gypsies.

oskar
Monday, April 17th, 2006, 01:11 AM
Both Serbs and Croats are slavic people, no doubt about that. There's a theory that their ruling casts were of Iranian descent. Various etymological clues seem to put them in the Caucasus and, perhaps, Afghanistan. According to this theory the Iranian Serbs and Croats ruled and mixed with slav peoples, taking on their languages and customs - but keeping their original name.

There's plenty of other examples of this in the early medieval Europe. The Kievan Rus, later Russians, got their name from the Vikings invited to rule them (from Roslagen, north of Stockholm). They were assimilated with the slavic population within a couple of generations. Today's Bulgarians speak a slavic language although their ancestors are the Turkic Bulgars. In pre-arab Spain the Visigoths made up a small ruling caste while the population was the same as under Roman times. Todays spanish is a latin language. Likewise the Germanic Lombards conquered northern Italy but were soon assimilated into the Latin culture.

Sturmann
Friday, May 19th, 2006, 08:16 AM
lol "Croats are true aryans"
I only can answer "HAHAHA"
i had read all that theme...and i see that croatians trying somehow to prove that they are Aryans ,but its going bad by them... your still cant prove it...
Maybe you just wannabe it ?

Zrinski
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 01:33 AM
Some would say that by the sole fact we are European/"White" makes us Aryan. Don't know what is so funny...

Oswiu
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 02:06 AM
Both Serbs and Croats are slavic people, no doubt about that. There's a theory that their ruling casts were of Iranian descent. Various etymological clues seem to put them in the Caucasus and, perhaps, Afghanistan.
Spot the Serbs!
http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/geocities.com1729.jpg

sunwheel_cro
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 11:04 PM
Again, you make no sense. Dushman is a word commonly used in Serbia.
Does that mean Serbs are Iranians?


maybe Serbians are also Iranians. I have read that word Serb also comes from Iran, and that Serbais were sarmartian tribe, and they where closely related with other neirby sarmatian tribe .. Croats.

In fact lot of Slavic words have Iranian orgin, and Sarmatians as i know history have entered Eastern Europe.

Maybe all Slavs are in fact Iranians or Perzians or other Middle East Aryans????

Oswiu
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 12:21 AM
maybe Serbians are also Iranians. I have read that word Serb also comes from Iran, and that Serbais were sarmartian tribe, and they where closely related with other neirby sarmatian tribe .. Croats.

In fact lot of Slavic words have Iranian orgin, and Sarmatians as i know history have entered Eastern Europe.

Maybe all Slavs are in fact Iranians or Perzians or other Middle East Aryans????
Good God, No!
THere WERE no 'mideast Aryans' until they migrated INTO the area, FROM the lands nextdoor to the Slovene! Both groups came ultimately from the area around the Volyn in the present day Ukraina.

Bioblitzkrieg
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 02:31 AM
According to this thread's optimists, should we also associate Ireland and Iran as being closely related? words associated with millenia old reference are weaks point to use alongside personal facial comparisons of friends to make a genetic/cultural statement about the Croats. Personally I think slavs and germans were one prototypical celtic people long after aincent Iranians and europeans diffused culturally and geographical to thier modern regions.

Hohenheim
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 01:11 PM
I think that the only conection between Slavs (an so including Croats and Serbs) and Iranians, is their language, They are many common words, but that's the only thing. And there is some Aryan blood in all Europeans, including Croats and Sebs, but I do not belive that Croats, or any other Slavic people, are 100 % Aryan.

Oswiu
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 06:17 PM
According to this thread's optimists, should we also associate Ireland and Iran as being closely related? words associated with millenia old reference are weaks
Fair point to question this association. We have Aryana and Eriu.
Speakers of the respective languages will tell you that one is understood as 'noble' etc., and the other is a Goddess's name of unsure provenance. Eire first comes to the notice of the Oikumene as 'Ierne', most likely referring to an original *Iverni, which later gave us Latin Hibernia.
Iverni is associated for some reason I can't fathom with the historical Erainn, a group of probably P Celtic invaders of the island in question who gave us the Fir Bolg and Ulaid, and were later overwhelmed by the invasions of the Fir Domnann, Lagin and Galeoin, not to mention the later Goidels who gave the country its present native tongue.

point to use alongside personal facial comparisons of friends to make a genetic/cultural statement about the Croats.
You're missing the point here of language and cultural spread. It's often associated with an incoming elite, so we shouldn't be surprised if two supposedly related groups differ quite markedly in physical appearance, as the genetic contribution in both of the unrelated substrate populations will have made its mark on the descendants of the previously near identical elites.

Personally I think slavs and germans were one prototypical celtic people long after aincent Iranians and europeans diffused culturally and geographical to thier modern regions.
The problem with this is that linguistically the Slavs [with the Balts] and Germanics form a Northern PIE group [defined more by lexica than anything else] implying a prolonged period of intimate contact. In the same terms, the Celts form a Western group with the Latins.
In the days before the divergence there were neither Celts, Germanics nor Slavs, just IndoEuropeans.

I think that the only conection between Slavs (an so including Croats and Serbs) and Iranians, is their language, They are many common words, but that's the only thing. And there is some Aryan blood in all Europeans, including Croats and Sebs, but I do not belive that Croats, or any other Slavic people, are 100 % Aryan.
This Aryan term is horrendously inconvenient and unsuitable. How many times do I have to say this? The word was only used as an ethnonym in the EAST, out of Europe.
As for Slavonic-Iranic connections, I believe the evidence points very strongly to a time when the ScythoSarmatians controlled or worked with the protoSlavs in some kind of political structure, lending the latter a ruling class, or at least Iranicising an existing layer to some extent. We see an echo of this in the Polish Szlachta, as well as the names of the Croats and possibly Serbs.
The Slavs of Thrace later did the same sort of thing with the Turkic Bulgars [who may also have had a Sarmatian element themselves].

sunwheel_cro
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 11:18 AM
Alans
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Alans or Alani (occasionally but more rarely termed Alauni or Halani) were an Iranian nomadic group among the Sarmatian people, warlike nomadic pastoralists of varied backgrounds, who spoke an Iranian language and to a large extent shared a common culture.

Name
The various forms of "Alan" (Greek Αλανοι, Αλαννοι; Chinese O-lan-na), as well as the "Iron" — self-designation of the Alan's modern Ossetian descendants, and not to be confused with the metal iron — are an Iranian dialectical form of "Aryan". The ancient Alans inhabited what is generally conceded (although not without contest) to be the original or one of the original ranges of the Aryans, or Indo-Iranians, the common ancestors of the Indo-Aryan and Iranian peoples. The use of "Aryan", "Iron", "Iranian", etc. as a self-designation was common among all these peoples.

The Alans were also known over the course of their history by another group of related names including the variations "Asi", "As", and "Os" (Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi). It is this name which is the root of the modern "Ossetian




Alans and Slavs
Alan tribes living north of the Black Sea may have moved northwest into what is now Poland, merging with Slavic peoples there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations (notably Serbs and Croats). Third-century inscriptions from Tanais, a town on the Don River in modern Russia, mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos or Chorouatos. The historian Ptolemy identifies the 'Serboi' as a Sarmatian tribe who lived north of the Caucasus, and other sources identify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the third century.

Accounts of these names reappear in the fifth century, with the Serboi, or Serbs, established east of the river Elbe in what is now western Poland, and the Croats in what is now Polish Galicia. The Alan tribes likely moved northeast and settled among the Slavs, dominating and mobilizing the Slavic tribes they encountered and later assimilating into the Slav population. In 620 the Croats and Serbs were invited into the Balkans by Eastern Roman Emperor Heraclius to drive away the Turkic Avars, and settled there among earlier Slavic migrants to become ancestors of the modern Serbs and Croats. Some Serbs remained on the Elbe, and their descendants are the modern Sorbs. Tenth-century Byzantine and Arab accounts describe a people called the Belochrobati (White Croats) living on the upper Vistula, an area later called Chrobatia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
some connection about Croats , Serbs with Sarmatians.
source , wikipedia

Oswiu
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 01:24 PM
I will say first of all that I broadly agree with the general thrust of those wikipedia articles, but hope you will understand my doubts about their authority, especially considering the fierce politics over questions of ethnogenesis in the Balkans.

Third-century inscriptions from Tanais, a town on the Don River in modern Russia, mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos or Chorouatos.
This sounds a little too good to be true. Do we have any more details?

Clibanarii_I
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 05:23 AM
I have a cousin of pure Persian blood who looks exactly like Davur Suker. Hi Croatian bros!

sunwheel_cro
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 10:32 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k319/tezcatilpoca/250px-DavorSuker.jpg

Hohenheim
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 02:31 PM
Davor Suker is Dinarid. I don't know, but I think it won't be that easy to find soemone Dinarid in Iran, or?

http://www.voetbalfocus.nl/imgs/suker-d1.jpg

http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20000525/images/ngmt5.JPG

Clibanarii_I
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 03:49 AM
Reza Kianian:

http://www.hamvatansalam.com/images/news/n015879-n.jpg
http://www.cinetmag.com/Fajr24/Photo/Neshast/2/Zagros_Reza_Kianian.jpg
http://www.iranactor.com/ARTISTS/actors/image/Reza-Kianian.jpg
http://www.filelodge.com/files/hdd2/23897/Reza-kianian.jpg :D

Is he Dinarid? (I'm not expert...)

Oswiu
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 01:07 PM
We don't NEED Dinarids in Iran to allow the idea that the early Croats were intimate with Iranian speakers. The Iranian speakers they did meet were ALREADY distant cousins to those in Iran anyway. Sarmatian/Slavonic contacts are an accepted linguistic fact. The name Khorvat cannot be explained through Slavonics, but can with Sarmatian. It's all so simple really!

Hohenheim
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 01:45 PM
ok then. Croats don't have Iranian orgins, but they were intimate with with Iranian speakers... or?
I think it is time to close this thread. Everything has been said, and it dose not make sense any more.
OSWIU CLOSE IT!!! :D ;)

Oswiu
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 03:03 PM
ok then. Croats don't have Iranian orgins, but they were intimate with with Iranian speakers... or?
I think it is time to close this thread. Everything has been said, and it dose not make sense any more.
OSWIU CLOSE IT!!! :D ;)
Ekh, let it run... ;)

Modern Croats are a base of Illyrian + Celt + Roman + forgotten ancient people, transformed into something new by a large Slavonic migration. The leaders of this migration [or possibly a second wave] were probably half Slavonicised Sarmatians, or Sarmaticised Slovene...

SO, there's a little bit of Sarmat there, but not MUCH! :D

Hohenheim
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 05:29 PM
Ekh, let it run... ;)

Modern Croats are a base of Illyrian + Celt + Roman + forgotten ancient people, transformed into something new by a large Slavonic migration. The leaders of this migration [or possibly a second wave] were probably half Slavonicised Sarmatians, or Sarmaticised Slovene...

SO, there's a little bit of Sarmat there, but not MUCH! :D

Some of us say that we (the Croatians) are half germanic, but I do not belive in this :)

Oswiu
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 05:44 PM
Some of us say that we (the Croatians) are half germanic, but I do not belive in this :)
Oops, I knew there was one major group that I'd forgotten, and it was my own! There probably is a bit of Gepid, Langobard and Goth in yous, too! But tiny in proportion.

sunwheel_cro
Thursday, November 2nd, 2006, 11:44 AM
mixed of lot of white nations like the most other European

White Falcon
Thursday, November 2nd, 2006, 02:15 PM
This sounds a little too good to be true. Do we have any more details?

http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath1.jpg

http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath.jpg


Two stone inscriptions in Greek language, dating from around the year 200,
found by the Black Sea (more precisely in the seaport Tanais on the Azov sea, Krim).
Both tablets are held in the Archeological museum in St Petersburg, Russia.

Oswiu
Thursday, November 2nd, 2006, 03:52 PM
http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath1.jpg

http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath.jpg


Two stone inscriptions in Greek language, dating from around the year 200,
found by the Black Sea (more precisely in the seaport Tanais on the Azov sea, Krim).
Both tablets are held in the Archeological museum in St Petersburg, Russia.
Excellent! Now how is the rest of the text translated? One is in very good condition, and should be easy to read.
http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath1.jpg

White Falcon
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 02:28 PM
Excellent! Now how is the rest of the text translated? One is in very good condition, and should be easy to read.


I've never seen entire translation, but there seems to be controversy over translation.
Two modern Croatian historians dealt with the inscriptions.

Mato Marcinko says that on the plates that were part of entry gates on the public building at the time in Tanais, next to the name of
Tiberius Julius Sauromat is carved official name of the building ,
and it mentions Synodos Horouathon which would mean in modern translation Croatian council or assembly.

Ivan Biondic says inscription mentions Archon Horoathos , translated as Croatian ruler and also Synodos Horoathon , already mentioned before.

Now the controversy is that these two "Iranists" are politically motivated
and are basically bullshiting and twisting facts to serve their agenda.
This is coming from very good poster in one Croatian history forum,
who claims that on the tablets are mere personal names that resembles Croatian name, and that do not represent people or a tribe at all.

Here is what I gathered from the inscription.

ΑΓΑΘΗΓ ΤΥΧΗΙ....Ε ς
.... ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙ ΡΗΣΚΟΥ ..ΟΡΙΛΙΥ ΙΩ.... ΜΕΓΑΛΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΣΑΥΡΟΜΑΤΟΥ
K..ΗΝΩΝ ΦΑΝΝΕΩΣ ΠΡΕΣΒΕΥΤΗ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΡΗΣΚΟΥ ΠΟΡΙΔΟΣ ς

ΚΑΙ ΧΟΦΑΡΝΟΥ ΣΑΝΔΑΡΖΙΟΥ ς
ΒΑΒΟΣΒΑΙΟ ΡΑΣΝΟΥ ς
.ΙΒΛΟΒΩΡΟΣΔΟΣ ΥΜΟΞΑΡΘΟΥ ς
ΧΟΡΟΑΘΟΣ ΣΑΝΔΑΡΖΙΟΥ
ΑΡΧΟΝΤΕΣ ΤΑΝΑΕΙΤΩΝ ς

ΧΟΦΡΑΖΜΟΣ ΦΟΡΣ.ΡΑΚΟΥ ς
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΔΗΣ .ΕΟΝΕΙΚΟΥ
ΕΛΛΗΝΑ ΙΧΗΣΕΞΑΡΤΙΣΑΣ ΤΗΝΑΓΟΡΑ
ΝΕΚΤΩΝΙΔΙΩΗ ΑΝΑΛΩΜΑΤΩΝΑΠΕΚΑ ΤΕΣΤΗ. ΑΤ.ΠΟΛΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΙ
ΣΕΜΠΟ...ΔΙΑΕΠΙΜΕΑΗΤΩΝ ΖΝΝΩΝΑ ΦΑ..ΕΩΣ ς
ΦΑΡΝΟΞΑΡΘΟΣ..ΑΥΡΕΟΥ
ΒΑΛΔΑΡΑΝΟΣ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΙΟΥ
ΚΑΙ ...ΕΚΤΟΝ..Ν ΔΙΟΦΑΝΤΟΥ
ΝΕ........ΟΥ ΑΝΤΩΝΕ...ΕΥΑΚΟΥ
......Ω...


Do you speak Greek? :D
Anyone?

Oswiu
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 09:22 PM
http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath1.jpg
ΑΓΑΘΗΓ ΤΥΧΗΙ....Ε ς
.... ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙ ΡΗΣΚΟΥ ..ΟΡΙΛΙΥ ΙΩ.... ΜΕΓΑΛΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΣΑΥΡΟΜΑΤΟΥ
K..ΗΝΩΝ ΦΑΝΝΕΩΣ ΠΡΕΣΒΕΥΤΗ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΡΗΣΚΟΥ ΠΟΡΙΔΟΣ ς

Maybe the third word of the second occurence is the same as that of the first? Some KING, anyway!

In blue it says SAUROMATOU and to me, the occurence of this word seems to clinch it. The ONLY reason we are looking for Khorvats in the Steppe is the perceived linguistic connection with the word Sarmat. If the inscription contains this word in the usual form, why would it also show the distorted form? Indeed, at this time, we shouldn't expect the new form to have evolved yet.

ΚΑΙ ΧΟΦΑΡΝΟΥ ΣΑΝΔΑΡΖΙΟΥ ς
ΒΑΒΟΣΒΑΙΟ ΡΑΣΝΟΥ ς
.ΙΒΛΟΒΩΡΟΣΔΟΣ ΥΜΟΞΑΡΘΟΥ ς
ΧΟΡΟΑΘΟΣ ΣΑΝΔΑΡΖΙΟΥ

More repetition, and therefore a misreading in either Xoroathos or Xofarnou?

ΑΡΧΟΝΤΕΣ ΤΑΝΑΕΙΤΩΝ ς

King of the Don colony?

ΧΟΦΡΑΖΜΟΣ ΦΟΡΣ.ΡΑΚΟΥ ς
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΔΗΣ .ΕΟΝΕΙΚΟΥ
ΕΛΛΗΝΑ ΙΧΗΣΕΞΑΡΤΙΣΑΣ ΤΗΝΑΓΟΡΑ
ΝΕΚΤΩΝΙΔΙΩΗ ΑΝΑΛΩΜΑΤΩΝΑΠΕΚΑ ΤΕΣΤΗ. ΑΤ.ΠΟΛΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΙ
ΣΕΜΠΟ...ΔΙΑΕΠΙΜΕΑΗΤΩΝ ΖΝΝΩΝΑ ΦΑ..ΕΩΣ ς
ΦΑΡΝΟΞΑΡΘΟΣ..ΑΥΡΕΟΥ
ΒΑΛΔΑΡΑΝΟΣ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΙΟΥ
ΚΑΙ ...ΕΚΤΟΝ..Ν ΔΙΟΦΑΝΤΟΥ
ΝΕ........ΟΥ ΑΝΤΩΝΕ...ΕΥΑΚΟΥ
......Ω...
Lots of names and titles and nationalities/places? A genealogy?

White Falcon
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 09:55 PM
It's interesting, but we are ,obviously, only into speculations.

Just one thing, why do you say Khorvats?

Oswiu
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 10:14 PM
Just one thing, why do you say Khorvats?
I'm transliterating from Cyrillic Russian - Белие Хорваты. :)

symmakhos
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 10:33 PM
Excellent! Now how is the rest of the text translated? One is in very good condition, and should be easy to read.
http://www.hr/darko/gif/horoath1.jpg

Shouldn't one perhaps read an omicron for 'w'? Khoroathos? certainly it is not unusual for inscriptions to have deficient and inconsistent spelling, and the letter 'w' does not occur in the koine alphabet, only in much older dialectal ones...

symmakhos
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 10:37 PM
Shouldn't one perhaps read an omicron for 'w'? Khoroathos? certainly it is not unusual for inscriptions to have deficient and inconsistent spelling, and the letter 'w' does not occur in the koine alphabet, only in much older dialectal ones...

Sorry, I had not studied the problem actually, just focused on the text marked with green.

Crow
Sunday, November 12th, 2006, 04:36 AM
Those two stone inscriptions are not in case with Croats but, in case with all Slavs and dating from time when all Slavs used some form of Serbian name as universal (general) Slavic name.

We speak about Sarmatian name, about name of Proto Slavs which went thru Greek and Latin transcription.

Later, I would say more on this and not in this thread.

White Falcon
Wednesday, November 15th, 2006, 06:53 PM
, in case with all Slavs and dating from time when all Slavs used some form of Serbian name as universal (general) Slavic name.


LOL, what are you talking about?

Hohenheim
Wednesday, November 15th, 2006, 08:09 PM
LOL, what are you talking about?

The usual stuff Serbs always talk about. We, are all Serbs :blueroll:

Crow
Wednesday, November 22nd, 2006, 10:54 PM
The usual stuff Serbs always talk about. We, are all Serbs :blueroll:
As I said all Slavs share Sarmatian heritage.


But, I know. You point on political situation on Balkan. It’s another topic but, if you insist…


Why should I- `all of you` considered as Serbs? Because once all Bosnian and Herzegovian highlanders were Serbs? Because people of Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Lika, Banija, Kordun, Baranja- in today’s Croatia originate from Catholic or Orthodox Serbs? Because you can read about it in Catholic Encyclopedia, Britannica, etc, etc?

No, I’m not that small-minded.

There is no rule in case with that. Man can be who knows what, no matter on his ethnic origin and for all sorts of reasons.


You know, it’s not easy to be a Serb. Serbs are first on the list of bad guys and well known troublemakers. It’s not easy to myself to be a Serb but, what can I do. I’m not accommodated.


Believe me you are happy as non Serb or even happier as anti Serb.

Something telling me that you agree with me. I mean, I see you live in free, modern Bosnian-Herzegovian society where mujahedine volunteers from Arabia got place to live and walk freely.

Hohenheim
Wednesday, November 22nd, 2006, 11:45 PM
You know, it’s not easy to be a Serb. Serbs are first on the list of bad guys and well known troublemakers. It’s not easy to myself to be a Serb but, what can I do. I’m not accommodated.


Believe me you are happy as non Serb or even happier as anti Serb.

It's not easy to be a Bosnian! We are the dumb one. Glupi bosnaci! ;)


Something telling me that you agree with me. I mean, I see you live in free, modern Bosnian-Herzegovian society where mujahedine volunteers from Arabia got place to live and walk freely.

One of them lives 3 floors under my apartment. His wife look like a fucking ninja :thumbdown

Do I agree with you? well somehow.

Crow
Thursday, November 23rd, 2006, 02:30 PM
It's not easy to be a Bosnian! We are the dumb one. Glupi bosnaci! ;)



One of them lives 3 floors under my apartment. His wife look like a fucking ninja :thumbdown

Do I agree with you? well somehow.
No you are not- `Glupi Bosanac`. I appreciate your answer.

I know that is not easy to be a Bosnian Christian in Bosnian-Herzegovian federation. That is the price that must be paid for collaboration between Western governments and mujahedines. Only good God knows who paying bigger price, we who resisted or you who didn’t.


I travel to Bosnia from time to time because of business and my friend who is Catholic told me that he hardly can find pig in Sarajevo in Christmas time. He said that, if there is no Republic of Srpska in neighborhood he would be forced to give up from pig meat.

My God, what’s happened to all of us, to Yugoslavia. Unbelievable.


Tell me, is it truth that now even Catholics of Bosnia start to hope that Serb of Republic of Srpska could try something and that way create situation that Catholics also could escape from Bosnian-Herzegovian (Muslim) federation?


Catholics continue to flee Bosnia

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/globe-article.php?yyyy=2006&mm=11&dd=20&nav_category=123&nav_id=38091

20 November 2006 | 11:37 | Source: The Universe

SARAJEVO -- A decade after the war, Catholics continue to flee from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

“Nothing has changed for the better for the Church in Bosnia-Herzegovina,” the country’s Franciscan provincial, Fr Mijo Džolan said.

“Catholics are still discriminated against by the constitution of Dayton [the Balkans peace agreement reached in 1995].”

Talks earlier this year aimed at bringing respite to Catholics by altering the constitution had failed to bring about any agreement, revealed Fr Džolan.

“At a political level there is still division – some are pressing for the first steps of change, while others simply don’t see it as essential,” he said.

Until the constitution was changed, it was difficult to see an end to the crisis which had driven more than half of Bosnia-Herzegovina’s Catholics out of the country since the start of the Balkans war, said the priest.

“We need to adjust the constitution to make people feel they can live safely and prosperously in Bosnia-Herzegovina,” he said, adding that Catholics continued to seek refuge abroad, especially in Croatia, the USA and Australia.

“Catholics do not have a good political or cultural frame to live in. They feel helpless. They have no confidence there will be an improvement and psychologically now they have no wish to participate in any improvement.”

Nor were refugees who fled their Bosnian homes during the conflict returning, added Fr Džolan.

“The reasons to leave were simple – fear and danger. The reasons for returning are more complicated,” he explained.

“People must forgive and must have confidence in a new life of reconciliation and rebuilding in a pattern of Europeanism and human rights.”

Catholics’ despair at the situation was a far cry from their enthusiasm in the wake of the Dayton Accord, continued Fr Džolan.

“There has been no change in ten years,” he said.

“People have lost that dynamism. They are tired, they have lost all confidence. The most sensitive issue for the Church is how to help our sisters and brothers live in hope.”

He added: “Pope Benedict XVI talked about justice and reciprocity. The Church must speak out where basic human rights are being ignored,” he said.



Let me tell you something, Tvrtko…

When you heard that Serbian knights arriving > forget about `ninja`, forget `3 floor under your apartment`, forget d*** building.

Just, put cross on yourself (no matter Catholic or Orthodox version) and run fast as you can from evil place.

Then, when you see that White Rose’s grow on place where building was, come back.


But hold on, Serbian wounds are serious, we are disabled for some time. NATO and AL Qaeda gave to us what we `deserved`.

Until now, Serbs were objects of Croatization and Islamization. There wasn’t mercy for us. Soon, if they take Kosovo and Matohija, our national being can get mortal wound. Gates of White Garden would be broken.

Situation is serious.

I think that corrupt Western governments preparing terrain for Islamic/Turkish expansion. Nothing is Sacred to them. All other are just excuses.


Call me naive but, I still count on Russia and Slavic solidarity but, also on awaken people from West.

Let God give strength to us that we endure, until understanding and support arrive.

Hohenheim
Thursday, November 23rd, 2006, 04:06 PM
When you heard that Serbian knights arriving > forget about `ninja`, forget `3 floor under your apartment`, forget d*** building.

Just, put cross on yourself (no matter Catholic or Orthodox version) and run fast as you can from evil place.

Then, when you see that White Rose’s grow on place where building was, come back.

Wow, you really write long posts :). Where to start...

Well... I live in Sarajevo. Many of my friends are Bosnian muslims (they are born muslims, but don't practice the muslim faith, you know what I mean). They are fully European and as long as they stay like now (I would say atheist or agnostic, the majorety of them) I have no problems.

I just want to free Europe from this non-European muslims. So... when Bosnian muslims drop their religion, they are my brothers and allies.

About those white roses... I don't want this city to be destroyed. I love it. So just free it from this non-European culture, and everything will be alright ;).

I also belive that the only way to win this war is some kind of Slavic-unity.

And about your friend and pig meat. I have no problems buying any pig product here. I mean, ok, you can't buy it in every market, but no matter that, because there are plenty of places where you can find it (just don't go in a thing called "halala mesnica", where those wehhabis works ;) ).
My father for example buys always "Dalmatinsku pršut" . He loves it! My mother dose not eat pig meat. She says it has to much fat.

What I'm trying to say. Come here, try to convert those misleaded Slavic brothers (Bosnian muslims), and the one who want to stay traitors of their own blood, attack ;)

Crow
Thursday, November 23rd, 2006, 10:51 PM
Wow, you really write long posts :). Where to start...

Well... I live in Sarajevo. Many of my friends are Bosnian muslims (they are born muslims, but don't practice the muslim faith, you know what I mean). They are fully European and as long as they stay like now (I would say atheist or agnostic, the majorety of them) I have no problems.

I just want to free Europe from this non-European muslims. So... when Bosnian muslims drop their religion, they are my brothers and allies.

About those white roses... I don't want this city to be destroyed. I love it. So just free it from this non-European culture, and everything will be alright ;).

I also belive that the only way to win this war is some kind of Slavic-unity.

And about your friend and pig meat. I have no problems buying any pig product here. I mean, ok, you can't buy it in every market, but no matter that, because there are plenty of places where you can find it (just don't go in a thing called "halala mesnica", where those wehhabis works ;) ).
My father for example buys always "Dalmatinsku pršut" . He loves it! My mother dose not eat pig meat. She says it has to much fat.

What I'm trying to say. Come here, try to convert those misleaded Slavic brothers (Bosnian muslims), and the one who want to stay traitors of their own blood, attack ;)
Don’t worry for Sarajevo, Olympic city of former Yugoslavia.

It is hard to Serbs to think about Islamized Serbs (Bosniak/Muslims) as enemies. We know that they avoided mixing with Turks during Ottoman occupation and, we still hope that they could return to Christianity, no matter as Catholics or Orthodox.

But, we can not trust them. Remember, in critical moments they always chooses side of Serbian enemies, ready to support Semitic Croatian ustashe and Albanian (Shiptar) mujahedines.

That convinced Serbs that Islamized Serbs/Slavs can’t be considered as part of Slavdom. When Islamized, Slav belong to Muslim world and he is lost for us if can’t find strength to return to Christian way.

There are Slavs who are atheists (or who knows what) but, that doesn’t negate their Slavic being. Islam is dangerous.


When you mentioned Slavic Unity…

Yes, Slavic Union will be ultimate Slavic answer to advancing Islam, because European Union failed to offer appropriate respond and concept for future.

European Union endangers fundaments of White Race. That isn’t multiculturalism. That is suicide.

Take for example what’s happening on Balkan.

For 350 years Balkan Slavs fights to liberate them from Ottoman occupation and in just few years European Union reversed situation, on behalf of Turkish interests.

We now have new Muslim country in the region (Bosnian-Herzegovian federation) and there is another on the way if Kosovo becomes independent. There is Albania, too. That means- three Islamic states in the region.

Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania are systematically populated with Muslim mujahedines from Near East and Africa. Those countries are Promised Land for drug smugglers and criminals from Islamic world.


One can conclude that all that happened because Western world wanted to weaken Slavic element on Balkan but, no. Situation all over the Western Europe is tragic, too. Islam is everywhere and that is welcomed religion by Western governments.

Problem is in Western governments. They are corrupt by Semitics. They are their instrument. That’s how it is. Semitics have final solution for White Race.

On the other side, way of life in West is fast and people hardly can be aware what’s going on, or at least aren’t capable for respond. Maybe, just maybe they could be awaken from night mare and resist.


We Slavs, don’t have much time. We are on the first line, as always. Especially, South-Slavs.

Our respond on situation must be decisive. Islam can’t pass!

Glory to mother Slavia! Eternity to White Rose!


Germanics! Join us in this battle! Let we save future of our children.

Hohenheim
Thursday, November 23rd, 2006, 11:24 PM
Our respond on situation must be decisive. Islam can’t pass!

Glory to mother Slavia! Eternity to White Rose!

Germanics! Join us in this battle! Let we save future of our children.

Yes. I agree wirh you. And your last three sentences... I just love them (the second is the best). :thumbup
I was always proud to be a Slav, and it breaks my heart when I see that some Slavic countries fight, and hate each other. My greates wish is to see all Slavs united, together, for a better Europe.

SLAVA!!!

HakenTT
Saturday, November 25th, 2006, 03:20 PM
You know, it’s not easy to be a Serb. Serbs are first on the list of bad guys and well known troublemakers. It’s not easy to myself to be a Serb but, what can I do. I’m not accommodated.


Believe me you are happy as non Serb or even happier as anti Serb.

Something telling me that you agree with me. I mean, I see you live in free, modern Bosnian-Herzegovian society where mujahedine volunteers from Arabia got place to live and walk freely.Yes serbs lost the media war as well, Serbs are not worse that any other peoples in balkans, but it is just the media war that they lost. The reason why they lost the media war is that serbs had the concentration camps for male prisoners first, plus they did not give them a lot of food and the guys got skinny, next thing you know red cross showes the pictures to the whole world. Then you got executions of srebrenica men and that will give you bad reputation. Serbs lost a lot of respect because of that in the world. When it comes to bosnian muslims they always looked like they were the victims so they gained simpathy in the world.
Bosnian muslims are very secular to a point that it mocks islam. You can find caffe bar right next to dzamija and that is very wrong in islam, you can't sell alcohol right next to mosq. Bosnian muslims were recognised by biggest racist in history to be white people and that person is Himmler, he organised SS handzar just for bosnian muslims, so your serbian propaganda can not list them as non whites.

Hohenheim
Saturday, November 25th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Bosnian muslims were recognised by biggest racist in history to be white people and that person is Himmler, he organised SS handzar just for bosnian muslims, so your serbian propaganda can not list them as non whites.

You are right. And ofcourse they are fully European. They only have the wrong religion for this part of the world. But "Crow" didn't say they are non-Europeans.


It is hard to Serbs to think about Islamized Serbs (Bosniak/Muslims) as enemies. We know that they avoided mixing with Turks during Ottoman occupation and, we still hope that they could return to Christianity, no matter as Catholics or Orthodox.

Crow
Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 10:37 PM
LOL, what are you talking about?
That what you wrote and more important how you wrote (present) about connections between modern Croats and ancient Sarmatians is serious and dangerous staff.

Persons who exist as Croats can’t take something what belong to all Slavs and, in the same time declare that Croatians aren’t Slavs. That way you steal something from Slavs, same as Greaks and Romans before you.


It is one if Croats claim that they aren`t Slavs but please, leave to us who are Slavs to preserve what is ours. Don’t leave as devastated. You can go (Good luck to you!) but, we- Slavs need to continue our existence.

Sarmatians were ancient Slavs and that’s how it is.

Via connections between Serbian and Croatian name (same name, different transcription) we can say that Croats same as many other Slavs preserved memory on Sarmatians. Czechs did it via name of Bohemia and Boii (short form of Serboi- registered by old authors as Sarmatian tribe). Poles did it via `Sarmatia schlachta` and thru martial arts based on use of sword (Balkan Serbs also). Don Cossacks preserved memory that they originate from Serboi. In Enciclopedia Britannica can be seen scholarly article about connections between Serbian/Sorbian (Balkan/Lousatsian) and Sarmatian name (based on position of linguistic science).

Read more hire…

Continuity and traces of Slavic existence in history

http://forums.skadi.net/continuity_and_traces_slavic_existence_h istory-t67840.html


Croat scholars (intellectuals of kajkavian dialect speaking regions- Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin- true Croats) more the once harmed Slavic heritage.

First victims were Catholic Serbs which were almost completely brutally Croatinized (transformed into Croats) and assimilated with cultural violence and administrative measures. Complete cultural achievements of Catholic Serbs (language- Serbian shtokavian dialect, culture, people) was separated from rest of Serbian national being/heritage and declared as part of Croatian heritage.


Have in mind that term/name `Croatia` in not that distant past represented geographical designation for regions populated with Serbs under Roman Catholic influence. Just in last 200 years that term started to spread from kajkavian speaking regions (Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) as national name and start to be imposed on all Catholic Serbs of: Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Baranja, Lika, Banija, Kordun, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Boka (in Montenegro), Northern Albania- Malesia.


Just some quotations from Britannica and Catholic encyclopedia about Catholic Serbs, as proof that their existence was registered…You also can notice that name Croat was used for designation of Catholic Serbs because they shared Catholicism with Croats from kajkavian regions…


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, see in editions from 1907, 1908, 1912

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

``…The revival of the national aspirations of Albania dates from the Congress of Berlin (1878), when Austria, in order to compensate Servia and Montenegro for her retention of the Servian lands of Bosnia and Herzegovina, thought to divide the land of Albania between them…``

``…While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith remained secure in the fastnesses of northern Albania.``

``…Since 1848 the Catholic Serbs, who are in large part subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, have bee under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Bishop of Diakovo, in Slavonia. Although freedom of religion was constitutionally guaranteed by the Congress of Berlin, the position of the Catholic Church is a disadvantageous one, as the Orthodox clergy put various difficulties in the way of parochial work…``


CLASSIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

Based on the 11th Edition of Encyclopedia Britannica 1911

entry...Servia

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Servia

3. Dalmatian Literatur

While among the Servians belonging to the Eastern Church all literary work had practically stopped from the middle of the r 6th century to the middle of the 18th, the Roman Catholic Servians of Dalmatia, and more especially those of the semi-independent republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik), became more active. Being for centuries politically, ecclesiastically and commercially connected with Venice, Rome and Italy in general, they came under. the influence of Italian civilization, and during the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries were the most cultured branch of the Servian nation. The awakening of literary ambition among these Servians of the Adriatic coast was originally due to the influence of immigrant Greek scholars who came to Ragusa after the fall of Constantinople in 1453.


To rightfully claim on population of Catholic Serbs, to consider them as Croatian population, modern Croatia need to live in real democracy at least 50 years (minimum) and to allow that people decide on plebiscite (democratic referendum) about its own destine. I mean, people need to decide what they are- Serbs (because of their ethnic origin) or part of Croatian nation.

Democratic process is necessary because assimilation of Catholic Serbs wasn’t natural process of assimilation. It was brutal and violent action. So, our Catholic brothers and sisters deserve to make their own choice.

That will be in the spirit of democratic principles. That demand eternal justice. Truth is essential for scientific progress.


Then, no matter what would Catholic Serbs decide in case with their future path, their- cultural and linguistic achievements must stay part of Serbian heritage and in the same time- Slavic. All what Catholic Serbs achieved, until the moment when they were brutally separated from rest of Serbian (and Slavic) national being, will stay Serbian and Slavic heritage. Yes, that will also belong to Croatian heritage but for the sake of science and justice; truth about Serbian cultural achievements will stay preserved.

I suggest to Croats that they learn to share past with Serbs, for the sake of our future.

It is impossible for Serbs to forget their past. People without past, also losing its future.

Serbian past is part of Slavic heritage and that`s why Serbs are target for Semitic NWO.


Hire are few related links which could show how Catholic and Orthodox Serbs were distributed and how they were violently assimilated and destroyed on territory of today’s Croatia.

Croatian propaganda wants to negate Serbian existence on the right side of Drina River (especially in destroyed and occupy Serb Krajina) before Turkish interference in Balkan/European history. But truth is that only one number (minor if compared with domicile Orthodox and Catholic Serbs) of Orthodox Serbs comes later under pressure of Turkish invaders and they come and settled among their Serbian brothers. Arriving of more Serbs in the region didn’t affect balance between Serbs and Croats because in that time Catholic Serbs still were proud Serbs. In that time there wasn’t Croats in that region. Arrival of new coming Orthodox Serbs just increased/strengthen Orthodox Serbian element in the region.

Religious balance is serious staff on Balkan. That’s the matter of concerning for World Powers. That’s why Orthodox Serbs of Krajina were destroyed. Destine of Catholic Serbs is just collateral damage in the eyes of World Powers. Croats were used as tool for destruction of Orthodox Serbs and it was allowed to them that they profit. Croats/kajkavian scholars decided to swallow Catholic Serbs as reward for they deal with Orthodoxy in the region.


So, Serbs were/are old autochthonous/domicile population in Krajina, Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Bosnia, Herzegovina.


Why I mentioned this?

Simply. When speak about Croatian heritage, have in mind historic facts. You need to speak about Croatian heritage, not about stolen Serbian heritage.


RESISTANCE TO CROATIZATION

http://www.suc.org/culture/library/genocide/k3.htm

Fragment:

The Serbs very early realised the true sense of the Croatian policy insofar as croatization and the creation of a big Croatian state were concerned. This is convincingly witnessed by the letter from a Great Zupan of the Zupanija of Srem, Svetozar Kusevic, addressed on February 11, 1863, to the Great Zupan of the Zupanija of Zagreb, Ivan Kukuljevic Sakcinski. With reference to the dispute about where Srem belongs and the refusal of the zupanija of Zagreb to support the decisions by the National Serbian Congress of 1861, under which Srem was to be a part of Vojvodina, Kusevic wrote to Kukuljevic: "Your explanations have generated a great mistrust of Zagreb and extreme bitterness against the Croats; the opinion is now rife that our Croat brothers are the worst enemies of the Serbs, that they hate them because of their nationality and their religion, that they wish them the same as the Hungarians, to strangle their national consciousness and on this basis to spread their own glory and might". Having warned Kukuljevic that the Serbs, "as a people equal with the Croats, cannot sit and look while the Croats deny them their political existence", told him: "Accept these words as a token of friendship and hope that our mutual love may grow stronger instead of being destroyed. I beseech you to endeavour to prevent hatred from taking over, for this is where our downfall will come. See what concessions you can make over there for you are in a better position, nor would any concession do you much harm. Try to put out the fire which is being inflamed from Zagreb, to allay the fears over here that the Croats will destroy the Serbs and spread Catholicism, otherwise believe me, there will be great bitterness with unforeseeable consequences, and history will curse him who was able to but did not prevent the evil." (Underlined by V.K.) This and many other friendly warnings from the Serbs remained the cries in the desert, because he who was able to, impelled by selfish national and narrow religious interests, not only failed to forestall the evil, but from year to year inflamed and spread it.


GENOCIDE IN THE SERVICE OF THE IDEA OF A GREATER CROATIA

http://www.suc.org/culture/library/genocide/k7.htm

Fragment:

Croatia's tendencies toward territorial expansion are of old date. Numerically small, also small in the area they occupy, the Croatian people had great imperial ambitions. This is borne witness by the names which they use: "Alpine Croats" (for Slovenes), "Orthodox Croats" (for Serbs), "flower of the Croatian people" (for Moslems), followed by "Turkish Croatia" (for Bosnia), "Red Croatia" (for Montenegro), "White Croatia" (for Dalmatia) and "Carinthian Croatia" (for Slovenia). These names had been carefully nurtured for hundreds of years and rooted in the consciousness of the Croat with the idea of developing in him a conviction of the greatness of Croatia and of the numerical strength of the Croats.


Relationship Towards Serbian Monuments in Konavle

By Djordje Capin

http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-bo/istorija/djcapin-konavli_e.html

When Konavle came under the rule of Austria in 1815 began a systematic action of denationalization and uprooting of ancient Serbian customs and destroying or remodeling of Serbian monuments. The action had lasted until the fall of Austria-Hungary in 1918 and continued with more intensity during the short rule of "NDH" (independent state of Croatia) and after during the communist Socialist Republic of Croatia in the former SFR Yugoslavia. All the time until the beginning of Austro-Hungarian annexation and even later the term "Croatia" or "Croatian" is completely unknown in the region of Konavle. Not until the second half of the nineteenth century when all Roman-Catholics who spoke Serbian language were announced Croatians gradually they began to declare themselves under the pressure of authorities and Church as Croats.


THE MEDIAEVAL CULTURE OF SERBS ON THE BORDER TOWARDS WESTERN EUROPE, by Dr. Djordje Jankovic

http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/djankovic/djankovic-zapadni_c.html

Although Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenet wrote that the Serbs by agreement settled Roman-Byzantine Dalmatia at the time of Emperor Heraclius (610-641), archaeological data from the environs of Grahovo and Drvar speak of this as occurring at the end of the IV century. In the Early Middle Ages, the Serbs can be recognized archaeologically by their stone mounds. These are remnants of graves and monuments in the form of tumuli in which as a rule there are no remains of either burned or buried people but rather traces of a burial feast and ritual places or only hearths. From Podrinje to Lika these are frequently to be found. Near Knin (Uzdolje) shards of pottery have been found in mounds which precede the Frankish attempt to conquer the whole province of Dalmatia at the outset of the IX century.


The Serbs in the Former SR of Croatia, Jovan Ilic

http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/jilic-croatia.html

Serbian Territories within the Boundaries of the former SR of Croatia

When one observes and analyses adequate historical and other sources, ethnic maps and statistics before World War I, between the two World Wars and the post-war period, one notices that the Serbs live on a continuous territory within the boundaries of the former SR Croatia, precisely from the close environs of Zadar, Biograd, and Sibenik across the regions of Ravni Koran, Bukovica, the Knin region, the greater part of Lika, Kordun and Banija to the Sava river in the region of Pounje. The Krajina covers most of this territory. This is the vastest Serbian area in the former Croatia.


The Serbian Origin of the Montenegrins

http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-cg/povijest/vlahovic.html

The name Serbs is one of the old Slav tribal names. This is attested by the traces from Polablje, Velikopoljska, and Pomorje (the three provinces belonging to Poland today). As early as in the mid 10th century the Serbs on the Balkan peninsula were aware of their links with the Serbs living in the north of the Slav original homeland. Even the learned emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (913-959) of Byzantium and his intellectual circle heard about the Serbs who had been brought from their homeland "White Serbia" by one of the sons of the ruler of the "unbaptised Serbs" in the time of Emperor Heraclius (610-640).[1]

The Serbian name has been mentioned in these parts since 822. Then, it was recorded that Ljudevit, the ruler of Posavina (the Sava river basin), when he was attacked by the Frankish army from Italy fled from the town of Sisak "...to the Serbs who, people say, live in the greater part of Dalmatia."[2] A century later, the Serbs were described by Porphyrogenitus as the landlords and inhabitants of the region between the town of Ras and the Pliva and Cetina rivers.[3] According to Porphyrogenitus, in the mid 10th century, they settled in the regions which were said to be Serbian and which extended from the Cetina river to the Ibar river and the Bay of Kotor.[4] In these regions lived the Neretljani, Zahumljani, Travunjani, and Konavljani that considered themselves to be Serbs, but there also lived the Serbs in the narrow sense who called their land "Baptised Serbia".[5]

Under the Serbian name Porphyrogenitus understood all the cubes which constituted the State of Czaslav. The tribes were those of Bosnia, Rashani, Trebinje, Konavle, Duklja, Zahumlje, and Neretva. So, the first Serbian tribal gathering in our past took place in the times of the rule of Czaslav. In the mid 10th century, Czaslav's state was the first to bear the name 'Serbia'.[6]


ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF SLAV CULTURES ON THE EASTERN ADRIATIC COAST IN MEDIEVAL TIMES

Translated from Serbian by Jelena Stojicevic

1st International Conference on Succesion of Adriatic Sea & on Borders Inside Former Yugoslavia, Belgrade, September 2003

http://www.rastko.org.yu/projekti/klio/sk/djankovic_e.html

Epistles of Pope George I (590-604) indicate that the Slavs lived in the vicinity of Salona in the 600s AD and that they were penetrating Italy.(1) Paul Deacon (720-797AD) noted Slav conflicts with Langobards in Northern Italy, and the Slav attack on the Langobard Benevent in 662.(2) Written sources from the 10th century contain data related to earlier centuries; these are facts from the work De administrando imperio of czar Constantine VII Porphiorgenitus (DAI)(3) and Historia Salonitana Maior of Thomas the Archdeacon.(4) These scriptures contain stories about the Slavs on the Adriatic. Serbs were allowed to inhabit Dalmatia by czar Iraklije (610-641); The Serbs were baptized then by Roman priests.``

And then…

`` Apart from indisputably Croatian traits, which had not been recorded in Dalmatia before and which had a characteristic Franc influence, these cemeteries contain traits of previously settled Slavs, including Serbs (pottery).(14)

This layer of society was clearly differentiated in Istria, and there are no archeological cites characteristic of Croats from that period.(15)


The Serbs in the Balkans in the light of Archaeological Findings, by Djordje Jankovic

http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/djankovic-serbs_balkans.htm

The archaeological science has established a link, which dates back to the 7th century, between the Danube river near Brza Palanka and the region of Pljevlja.[2] This may mean that the Serbs from today's Northeast Serbia moved to the Dalmatian province of the time.


TVRTKO KOTROMANIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvrtko_I

The title of King Tvrtko was "King of Serbs, Bosnia and the Seacoast".

Family Connections

``All House of Kotroman siblings, Tvrtko and Elizabeta in particular, were very close, calling themselves, even in official documents, as my beloved brother and my beloved sister, respectively. Thus, Tvrtko was, in fact, the brother-in-law, vassal and trusted ally of Louis I, and the brother-in-law of Hermann I of Celje. Tvrtko was also a descendant, on both paternal and maternal sides, from the Arpad dynasty that ruled Hungary and Croatia, and House of Nemanja, that ruled the Serbian Lands and at its peak the Greek lands. Tvrtko's paternal grandmother was Jelisaveta Nemanjic, the daughter of the Catholic Serb King Stefan Dragutin of Nemanja and his wife the Arpad Princess Katalin, the daughter of the Cuman Koteny Princess christened Elizabeth and her husband Istvan V who was the son of King Bela IV. Tvrtko's maternal great-grandmother was Ursa Nemanjic, Jelisaveta's sister.``


Always Serbian, sometimes Latin, never Croatian, by Slobodan Jarcevic

http://www.yugouk.co.uk/forum/read.php?f=1&i=3248&t=3248

Fragments:

"In Dubrovnik, the main language ever since the olden days was Serbian which was spoken by commoners, as well as by nobles - in the households, as well as in the municipal administration", wrote the Croatian historian Natko Nodilo.

The Croatianization of Dubrovnik’s Serbs and Serbs from other regions was often done by theft of, among other things, lyric and heroic national songs which were gathered by Catholic Serbs, and even by Catholic priests. Those songs were published by “Croatian Motherland“ as “Croatian National Songs“. This behavior of “Croatian Motherland“ editors inspired a Dubrovnik Catholic (Serb) Lujo Vojinovic, the brother of poet Ivo Vojinovic, to respond in Serbian publication “Dubrovnik“ (1897, number 35) with sharp criticism of “Motherland’s“ actions, prophetically claiming the disapperance of Catholic Serbs, because of Croatian genocide to be committed against them. He ends his article with these words:

“Serbs over the Drina River! And that codeword is blindly listened to and it will be listened to until the final day which must come, a final day when a great cataclysm will destroy all the artistic fences, or... or, ohh, destroy the final bastions of Serbian national culture and that is when the Croats will be satisfied!


Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Serbs

The Serbian rule in Bosnia crumbled after Ceslav's fall. It would take King Constantine Bodin of Doclea and Dalmatia's conquest of Bosnia against the Byzantines in 1082-1085 to restore it. There he implaced a related courtier of his, Stefan as Ban, whose heirs continued to rule Bosnia. Bosnia became less independent of Duklja over the ages, only formin an allience with King Kočapar against Rascia in an attempt to reunite all former Serbian lands.``


About 1/3 of Serbian nation was assimilated by Croats (Catholic Serbs but also Orthodox Serbs who were converted to Catholicism by force and then Croatianized). Also, in that process was killed about 1/4 of Serbian population in genocide (mostly Orthodox Serbs). International community, never punished Croatian state and kajkavian ideologists from Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin. On the contarary, they were rewarded and Croatian hegemony even continue to spread and to assimilate, kill and expell more Serbs.


To underline all what I said, I would present one article which will confirm that Croatian ustashe (kajkavian intellectuals from Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) were in deep connection with extreme Jewish ideologists. Together with them in their attack on children of White Rose...


The Ustase's "Honorary Aryans"

Author: Hannah Arendt on the destruction of Croatia's Jewish Community, and the manner in which "assimilated" Jews lingered on until rather late in the war in Zagreb.

http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/jasenovac/ja0009.html

The great body of middle class Jews, so characteristic of Western and Central Europe, did not exist in the East; in its stead we find a thin layer of upper-middle-class families who actually belonged to the ruling classes and the degree of whose assimilation - through money, through baptism, through inter-marriage - to Gentile society was infinitely greater than that of most Jews in the West.

Among the first countries in which the executors of the Final Solution were confronted with these conditions was the puppet state of Croatia, in Yugoslavia, whose capital was Zagreb. The Croat government, headed by Dr. Ante Pavelic, very obligingly introduced anti-Jewish legislation three weeks after its establishment, and when asked what was to be done with the few dozen Croat Jews in Germany, it sent word that they 'would appreciate deportation to the East.' The Reich Minister of the Interior demanded that the country be judenrein by February, 1942, and Eichmann sent Hauptsturmfuhrer Franz Abromeit to work with the German police attache in Zagreb. The deportations were carried out by the Croats themselves, notably by members of the strong fascist movement, the Ustashe, and the Croats paid the Nazis thirty marks for each Jew deported. In exchange, they received all the property of the deportees. This was in accordance with the Germans' official 'territorial principle,' applicable to all European countries, whereby the state inherited the property of each murdered Jew who had resided within it boundaries, regardless of his nationality.

...The original deadline of February, 1942, could not be met, because Jews were able to escape from Croatia to Italian-occupied territory, but after the Badoglio coup Hermann Krumey, another of Eichmann's men, arrived in Zagreb, and by the fall of 1943 thirty thousand Jews had been deported to the killing centers.

Only then did the Germans realize that the country was still not judenrein. In the initial anti-Jewish legislation, they had noted a curious paragraph that transformed into 'honorary Aryans' all Jews who made contributions to 'the Croat cause.' The number of these Jews had of course greatly increased during the intervening years. The very rich, in other words, who parted voluntarily with their property were exempted. Even more interesting was the fact that the S.S. Intelligence service had discovered that nearly all members of the ruling clique in Croatia, from the head of government to the leader of the Ustashe, were married to Jewish women. The fifteen hundred survivors among the Jews in this area - five per cent, according to a Yugoslav government report - were clearly all members of this highly assimilated, and extraordinarily rich, Jewish group. And since the percentage of assimilated Jews among the masses in the East has often been estimated at about five per cent, it is tempting to conclude that assimilation in the East, when it was at all possible, offered a much better chance for survival than it did in the rest of Europe.

Oswiu
Monday, December 11th, 2006, 12:29 AM
Sarmatians were ancient Slavs and that’s how it is.
Not a lie as such, but still a horrendous exaggeration. :(

Via connections between Serbian and Croatian name (same name, different transcription) we can say that Croats same as many other Slavs preserved memory on Sarmatians.
Truer than it might immediately seem.

Czechs did it via name of Bohemia and Boii (short form of Serboi- registered by old authors as Sarmatian tribe).
Absolute RUBBISH!
You complain about people stealing the history of other peoples, and now you're stealing my Celtic history! :-O

Poles did it via `Sarmatia schlachta` and thru martial arts based on use of sword (Balkan Serbs also).
The sword stuff doesn't convince me, but the Szlachta thing is reasonable enough.

Don Cossacks preserved memory that they originate from Serboi.
SOURCE????!?!?
I've seen better attempts to link them to the Khazars, for God's sake!

In Enciclopedia Britannica can be seen scholarly article about connections between Serbian/Sorbian (Balkan/Lousatsian)
'Lusatian' from Lausitz [Luzhice].

and Sarmatian name (based on position of linguistic science).

Read more

....


Your posts are far too long and full of various things to possible comment on. This is a shame because some of what you publicise is interesting and worth reading [the Croatianisation of Dalmatian Serbs, for instance], but you bundle it all together with nonsense and propaganda. :shrug

some_one_number_one
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 10:51 AM
To date, 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have compiled 249 research works of which many have been printed in various publications and thereby have proven that Croats are of Iranian origin.

There are many real evidences about the identity of ancient Croats which all dismiss the theory that Croats are of Slav origin. Although research works on the Iranian origin of the Croats could not be publicized due to the censorship that was widely practiced at the time of the former regime in Yugoslavia, however, the available documented evidences reveal that the initiator of the effort on research about the Iranian origin of the Croats lived two centuries ago.

In his thesis in 1797, the researcher made a study on the Iranian origin of the Croats and reached the conclusion that the present day Croats migrated from the western part of ancient Iran.

Following the formation of Yugoslavia in 1918, the bigot Slavs known as the "wolves" collected the original copies of the research work and destroyed them in an attempt to conceal the truth about the Iranian origin of the Croats. To date, only some part of the research work that has been quoted in a report prepared by the academy of sciences of former Yugoslavia in 1938 is available.

One of the articles has quoted some police reports that the then government in former Yugoslavia mounted pressures on Iranologists within the period 1918 to 1990. The article further proves that upon official instructions by the then government, Croats had to be considered as the middle ages Slavs. For this same reason, all the research works conducted over the origin of the Croats were considered as criminal acts and thus prohibited for a period of 70 years. All the research papers compiled by Iranologists were confiscated as documents against state interests and the researchers were imprisoned or sent to detention camps. Even four researchers were killed by the Yugoslav secret police for making investigations over the issue.

However, there are other research works proving that 75 percent of the Croats are different in origin from the Slavs and more similar to Kurds and Armenians from genetic point of view. On the other hand, studies show that there are less similarities between domestic livestock, poultry and plants in the old time Croatia with those in Europe, lending further proof to the fact that Croats had most probably migrated from a region close to Asia to their present area.

Former Croat homeland and their migration
A manuscript dating back to 1370 B.C. has named the present day Croats and their language as Hurrvuhe (resembling Hrvati).

In the era of the Achaemenid, especially at the time of Cyrus II and Darius I, the name of the eastern Iranian province Harauvatya and the Croats of the ancient Iran Harauvatis and Harahvaiti have been mentioned for 12 times. In addition, two unearthed manuscripts belonging to the Croats living in the second and third centuries B.C. in ancient Iran have referred to the inhabitants of Horooouathos and Horoathoi. In the year 418, the Aryans were dubbed as Horites and Zachariasrhetor, in 559 the Aryan horse riders were referred to as Hrwts who lived in the vicinity of Krima and Azova and in the 7th century Croats were called as Slavs.

Other articles offered to the symposium discussed formation of the empire at the time of Cyrus the Great, history of the Croats in ancient Iran and Croat's development from the time of ancient Indians to the time of their migration in the middle ages from the Caucasus through ancient Persian to the present Adriatic and emergence of the first traces of Croats which could be classified as follow:

* Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
* Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
* Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
* Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic

First contacts between old-time Slavs and Croats of ancient Iran
Research works have been conducted on the relationship between the language spoken by the Croats and the language the present-day Slavs speak with an aim to identify the possible similarities. However, the studies do not dismiss the possibility that the old-time Croats were part of the ancient Iran at the time of the Persian Empire who later migrated to Europe and their language was changed into the Slav.

Meanwhile, studies on the Croats indicate that the old-time Slavs did not share the same race with the East European nations and that with the migration of the Croats with the Iranian origin, they established common cultural and lingual ties with each other.

Stolen from Iranian Aryan National Front ;-)
http://ianf.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=8

Klegutati
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Please look at this link..:thumbup
http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.vandenheuvel/slavs2.html

some_one_number_one
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 07:03 PM
i heard that Croatians was living in Poland, and since VIII centaury they go to Balkan area. In Poland we have "White Croatia" (not only in Poland, in Czech Republic also).

this map: http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.vandenheuvel/slavs2_html_m620b5078.gif
is fake, in Serbs are located in Polans area, and Weleti slavs was on north-east part of modern Germany. "Croatian" area was settmed by Lachs/Lechians (In persian language Poland is Lechistan - coutry of Lachs)

Regards,

Ps. Also is book of Karol Szajnocha, in his theory Poles have origin from germanic tribe, and they was slavised in VII centaury. Szajnocha was btw. one of best polish historics.

Crow
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 07:19 PM
Not a lie as such, but still a horrendous exaggeration. :(
Truer than it might immediately seem.
Absolute RUBBISH!
You complain about people stealing the history of other peoples, and now you're stealing my Celtic history! :-O
The sword stuff doesn't convince me, but the Szlachta thing is reasonable enough.
SOURCE????!?!?
I've seen better attempts to link them to the Khazars, for God's sake!
'Lusatian' from Lausitz [Luzhice].
Your posts are far too long and full of various things to possible comment on. This is a shame because some of what you publicise is interesting and worth reading [the Croatianisation of Dalmatian Serbs, for instance], but you bundle it all together with nonsense and propaganda. :shrug
What to tell you Oswiu, my posts are long because I obviously have to say something. He, he…:) :thumbup

But, I will tell you what I can do. I would segment my posts, in few shorter- step by step replies.


In this `reply` I would on the first place correct myself in something. I made one technical error in my previous post in case with Cossacks.

Russians in general (about Cossacks latter) didn’t preserve memory on Sarmatians (form of original/universal Slavic name) primarily thru name `Serboi` but, thru name of `Siberia`. That is what I had in mind but, I obviously replaced Siberia with Serboi (having in mind my previous comment in case with Czech Boii). And, when I noticed that mistake, you already gave your reply and that stay in my post. So, this way I correct that and, I apologize to auditorium of SKADI.

Now, I would propose few interesting links in case with this topic…


Wikipedia (on the base of Encyclopedia Britannica)

Theories on the origin of the Serbs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Serbs

The Slavic theory about the origin of the Serb name

``There is a theory that the name Serbs was a designation for all Slavic peoples in history. The earliest possible association of Serbi with Slavs is from Procopius (6th century), who says that Antae and Sclavenes (Slavs) originally had the common name Sporoi, which has been claimed as a corruption of Srbi (Serbs).``

Traces and possible migrations of Serbs

``There is a theory that the other branch of Sarmatian Serbs maybe moved northeast to the southern base of the Urals, and settled there for a time. We can call them 'Volga Serbs'. They possibly moved eastwards, deep into Siberia, leaving traces in the names towns along the coast of the Sea of Japan. They faded out with the onslaught from the Mongols. These we can call 'Siberian Serbs'. It is even possible that Siberia was named after this Old Serb tribe.``

Possible connection with names of Sarmatians and Sabars

``Some historians suggest the connection between the name of Serbs and names of Sarmatians and Sabars…``

Name of Sarmatians

``Some suggest that the name "Serb" is derived from the ancient homeland of Serbs, Sarmatia, an ancient country between the Vistula River and the Caspian Sea, occupied by the Sarmatians [Lat. Sarmatae]...``

S > H

``Maybe Sarmoi > Serboi, Srb from lit. sarma `gray, white weasel' [common PIE b > w mutation]. Both root names Hrv (Croat) and Srb (Serb) are interchangeable: s > h, b > v phonetic mutations. Srb (Serb) could be the origin of the latter Hrv (Croat).``


Serbs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

Name

``The etymology of the word "Serb" (root: Srb) is not known. Numerous theories exist, but none can be said to be certain or even probable:

1. Some believe that the name is of Sarmatian/Iranian origin. From which particular word it derives is unclear. However, one theory suggests it derives from the word "Sarv" which means "cypress" tree.

2. Some [6] believe that the name comes from srkati, meaning "to suck in", referring to people so closely united as if they share mother's milk.

3. Also, others argue that all Slavs originally called themselves Serbs, and that Serbs (and Sorbs) are simply the last Slavs who retained the name.

4. There is also theory that name Serbs derived from the Caucasian word "ser", which means "man".

5. There is theory that name Serbs connect with elite soldiers in Russia, "Sarbi".

However, one thing is certain: the name is very old. It is clearly a self-identification and not a given name as its root cannot be found in western European languages.

It is interesting that the etymology of the name of the Croats (root: Hrv) is also unknown. Some suggest that the names actually originate from the same root: indeed, the roots are distinctly similar (Srb/Hrv).

However, it is not known whether this is merely coincidental or indicative of a common origin.``


Hutchinson encyclopedia

Slav

http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Slavs

``Member of an Indo-European people in central and Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and parts of northern Asia, speaking closely related Slavonic languages, some written in the Cyrillic and some in the Roman alphabet. The ancestors of the Slavs are believed to have included the Sarmatians and Scythians. Moving west from central Asia, they settled in eastern and southeastern Europe during the 2nd and 3rd millennia BC.``

NOTE: [Comment by Crow] They (Slavs) didn’t settle `during the 2nd and 3rd millennia BC`. They really originate from Denude and they were there much, much earlier. Genetic science already offered some answers (you will get links).


I again recommend this link for more informations…

Continuity and traces of Slavic existence in history
http://forums.skadi.net/continuity_an...ry-t67840.html


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

The Slavs

http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/s/slavs.html

A. Slavs

``At present the customary name for all the Slavonic races is Slav. This name did not appear in history until a late period, but it has superseded all others.``

``Alexandrian scholar Ptolemy (about A.D. 100-178) mentioned in his work, "Geographike hyphegesis", a tribe called Stavani (Stavanoi) which was said to live in European Sarmatia between the Lithuanian tribes of the Galindae and the Sudeni and the Sarmatic tribe of the Alans. He also mentioned another tribe, Soubenoi, which he assigned to Asiatic Sarmatia on the other side of the Alani. According to Safarik these two statements refer to the same Slavonic people.``


Sarmatians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

``The Sarmatians, Sarmatae or Sauromatae were a multi-ethnic confederacy…``

Sarmatian tribes

``On the whole however the ancients recognized a separate unity, whether of political affiliations, language, or both, called the Sarmatian. We do not know its languages for certain. From its location, it must have included some form of Balto-Slavic,…``


I am sure (and not only me) that hire we have trace of one ancient Slavic brotherhood (conglomerate) consisted from many Slavic tribes. It was in time when Slavs used some form of Serbian name for their universal designation. Name of Sarmatians- as I mentioned, just went thru Greek and Latin transcription. For those languages (and for other non-Slavic languages) was/is impossible to use form with root `SRB` and regularly that form changed with addition of `O` or `A`, `E` `I` even `U`, etc. So, we got SARB > SARM,… Later, Greek authors insisted on form SERB, SORB, SARM and Roman authors in some cases proposed form with root `CRO` (S > C) which was more in spirit of Latin language.

On the base of many articles that I sow…

It was prefix SRB (in some form) > SRBATIA (looks similar with Serbian/Slavic word `bratia` and means brotherhood and on that principle, as linguistic science propose), members of that ethos called themselves `brothers`- BRACA (read C as `c` in Italian Ciao). `SR` was addition (further development) of form BRAT (but on Serbian also SABRAT!) and we got SRBAT > SRBATIA > SABRATIA, etc.

Form `SR` probably represent (by meaning on Serbian/Slavic languages) just short designation (indication) for `NUMEROUS BROTHERS`, numerous people/tribes, many brothers, brothers united in something (in defense, military action, to bring some decision, society, etc.). Even today we have words like SABOR, ZBOR with meaning of SKUPSTINA (parliament).

Name of SRBATIA is in fact remaining of ancient brotherhood and form of government in the same time (memory on ancient time of Slavic and White race beginning and social development/evolution). Thanks to Polish `Sarmatian Schlachta` as one more big proof, we can be absolutely sure (100%!) in this scenario (not sure just in technical details!).

After word SRBATIA (some form of that name) was adopted for Latin speakers we got SARBATIA > SARMATIA (even STAVANIA, etc, etc) > CARBATIA > CARMATIA > CROATIA.

So, same way how Lusatian and Balkan Serbs preserved memory on original Slavic name (some form on name with root SRB), Croatians (kajkavian speaking regions of former Yugoslavia- Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) preserved memory on that name in its Latin form and that is CROAT/CROATI/CROATIA and domestic version (when foreign form CROAT was rewritten/adopted for domicile use in Churches and for state purposes)- HRVAT, HRVATSKA.


If we want to give honest conclusion (free from any political influence), we must say that name SERB (SRB) represent domestic (original) form and that name CROAT (HRV) represent foreign designation which was adopted (or imposed).

Further, we must conclude that it doesn’t mean that SERBS and CROATS (modern nations with those names) must be same population (of same ethnic origin). In fact, it is possible that Serbs and Croats don’t have more in common then any other Slavic ethoses between each others. We maybe just have same phenomenon as in case with Lusatian Sorbs and Balkan Serbs- we preserved memory on original Slavic name with root SRB. Just, evolution of that term was different in today’s Croatia.

NOTE: We also can’t exclude possibility about direct connection between Lusatian, Balkan Serbs and Croats (same ethnic origin/same Slavic tribe/clan). Just, if we accept theory that some form of Serbian name was universal Slavic name, we must say that original tribal name of that ethos was replaced with universal Slavic name based on root SRB (Serb. `braca`, `sabraca`, `bratstvo`; brothers > brotherhood).

Or, if we accept theory that all Slavs originates from Danube, we must conclude that Lusatian, Balkan Serbs and Croats in fact never had other name for themselves then name based on root SRB. In that case, we are becoming aware that other Slavs (how population expand arround Danube and further) maybe replaced their original names (form with root SRB) with new tribal names.

NOTE in case with comment above:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

B. Wends

II. ORIGINAL HOME AND MIGRATIONS

http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/s/slavs.html

``Consequently if we were to follow strictly the written historical authorities, of which a number are very trustworthy, we would be obliged to support the theory that the original home of the Slavs is in the countries along the Danube and on the Adriatic coast.``


BUT, to finalize this conclusion correctly (for the sake of science and truth- to be precise!) we must say that original ethnic Croatian population (by definition) represents just population of KAJKAVIAN (kajkavski dialect) speaking regions- as I already mentioned (those are true Croats). That is only (approximately) 15% of today’s Croatia (Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) in territorial sense.

Population of Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Krajina (Lika, Banija, Kordun, Baranja), Bosnia, Herzegovina- represents Serbian ethnic population/territory (by genetic/linguistic origin), which was declared as Croatian population/territory (in my previous post in this thread I offered links about it!). Originally (before brutal assimilation and cultural/physical violence/genocide on them), it was Catholic and Orthodox Serbian population. This population uses even today their own SHTOKAVIAN Serbian dialect (on Serb. - stokavski).

cielblanc
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 08:45 PM
I'm a serb, you're a serb, we are all serbian.Aren't we a happy family? :-D:

Crow
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 10:42 PM
I'm a serb, you're a serb, we are all serbian.Aren't we a happy family? :-D:
He, he...

I expected that somebody from family must say some comment.:D


But Hey, we are far from happy family and you know it.:~(

;)


And, I don’t believe that all of us are Serbs, even if science proves that all Slavs used some form of Serbian name (that is only a name, for God’s sake!:) ) as universal Slavic name in some period of past or even if science prove that old primordial European population used some form of Serbian name as universal name for white race. Even, if science (different scientific branches- archeology, climatology, genetics, ethnology, linguistics, etc.) proves that all Slavs and Whites originate from Danube that wouldn`t convinces me that `all of us are Serbs` (it wouldn`t be interesting, after all:) ).

Simply, that would only explain why population around Danube (in Lusatia and on Balkan- Serbs and Croats) preserved memory on that name. That would only prove that around Danube and especially on Balkan was core of White Garden- in genetic/ethnic and in cultural/spiritual sense.

If we accept all this, we need to understand that old primordial population migrated in all directions around Danube and that all Europoids share that genetic stock- which, don’t forget constantly evolved thru time.

For sure, possibility that some form of Serbian name was universal name doesn’t negate existence of numerous European nations (no matter- Slavic or non-Slavic) which possibly adopted new name thru time.


So, if you have intention to provoke me in case my statements about possibility (proposed by science) that some form of Serbian name maybe was universal Slavic name, I would tell you- forget about it. Free your mind from political influences and open yourself for Information Age. Don’t exclude any possibility because of politics. That only feed stupidity and helps to those (magnates) who have interests to hide truth from people.

If that satisfy you- you can use approach that maybe Balkan Serbs were in fact Bulgarians before they adopted universal Slavic name based on root SRB.

No matter what would satisfy you in your seek for answers, I suggest you scientific approach.

Oswiu
Thursday, January 4th, 2007, 02:39 AM
I would segment my posts, in few shorter- step by step replies.
Slava Bogu!

Russians in general (about Cossacks latter) didn’t preserve memory on Sarmatians (form of original/universal Slavic name) primarily thru name `Serboi` but, thru name of `Siberia`.
Nonsense. It's a Turkic word, and is found first among the Kok Turks in the 6th Century, long before Slavs got anywhere near the Urals.

Procopius (6th century), who says that Antae and Sclavenes (Slavs) originally had the common name Sporoi, which has been claimed as a corruption of Srbi (Serbs).``
There MUST be an online Procopius somewhere! Can you find it for me, so I can check this with my own eyes? Even in Serbian I could read it, if you showed me the exact place.

``There is a theory that the other branch of Sarmatian Serbs maybe moved northeast to the southern base of the Urals, and settled there for a time. We can call them 'Volga Serbs'. They possibly moved eastwards, deep into Siberia, leaving traces in the names towns along the coast of the Sea of Japan. They faded out with the onslaught from the Mongols. These we can call 'Siberian Serbs'. It is even possible that Siberia was named after this Old Serb tribe.``
SHOCKINGLY absurd fantasy! As if!

Why no details? Possibly because it would dawn on any impartial reader that it was pure nonsense?

Is this an oblique reference to the Sabir, however? That might be interesting. In Russian, their name became Severyane, according to Gumilyov and they named the area around Chernigov, having prior to Slavonicisation been Turkic or Ugric...
No possibility of a connection with the name Serb though.

``The etymology of the word "Serb" (root: Srb) is not known. Numerous theories exist, but none can be said to be certain or even probable:

1. Some believe that the name is of Sarmatian/Iranian origin. From which particular word it derives is unclear. However, one theory suggests it derives from the word "Sarv" which means "cypress" tree.
No internal logic or analogies.

4. There is also theory that name Serbs derived from the Caucasian word "ser", which means "man".
Coincidence. And WHICH Caucasian language is this? There are at least five MAJOR linguistic groups in the area. Such lack of detail once again ruins the impression of what you post as a whole.

5. There is theory that name Serbs connect with elite soldiers in Russia, "Sarbi".
Details? Time period? Usage?
I lived for years in Russland, and have never heard this word in my life.

What's wrong with the nice understandable theory that connects the name with the Ukrainian verb poserbitisya [to adopt, absorb into a clan/community]? Makes perfect sense to me.

the roots are distinctly similar (Srb/Hrv).
Apart from the inconvenient fact that the latter is always followed by an immovable suffix -at.

Roman authors in some cases proposed form with root `CRO` (S > C) which was more in spirit of Latin language.
This supposes that 'Croat' is the result of bad Roman pronunciation of Srovat! :roll
What nonsense! How do you dare post it here?
Czechs preserved the name as Harvat, with a minimum of Latin influence. The Croats themselves would hardly take their own Hrvat from a Latin word, and the Greek influenced Russians were familiar with the name Khorvaty.

It was prefix SRB (in some form) > SRBATIA (looks similar with Serbian/Slavic word `bratia` and means brotherhood and on that principle, as linguistic science propose), members of that ethos called themselves `brothers`- BRACA (read C as `c` in Italian Ciao). `SR` was addition (further development) of form BRAT (but on Serbian also SABRAT!) and we got SRBAT > SRBATIA > SABRATIA, etc.
How many of these forms have ever been recorded? None?

Form `SR` probably represent (by meaning on Serbian/Slavic languages) just short designation (indication) for `NUMEROUS BROTHERS`, numerous people/tribes, many brothers, brothers united in something (in defense, military action, to bring some decision, society, etc.). Even today we have words like SABOR, ZBOR with meaning of SKUPSTINA (parliament).
Sabor is obviously the same as Russian Sobor, meaning Cathedral/Council/Gathering. From the verb sobirat'sya to gather/collect. Related to the word 'brat'' to take.

http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/s/slavs.html

``Consequently if we were to follow strictly the written historical authorities, of which a number are very trustworthy, we would be obliged to support the theory that the original home of the Slavs is in the countries along the Danube and on the Adriatic coast.``
Pure drivel.

BUT, to finalize this conclusion correctly (for the sake of science and truth- to be precise!) we must say that original ethnic Croatian population (by definition) represents just population of KAJKAVIAN (kajkavski dialect) speaking regions- as I already mentioned (those are true Croats). That is only (approximately) 15% of today’s Croatia (Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) in territorial sense.

Population of Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Krajina (Lika, Banija, Kordun, Baranja), Bosnia, Herzegovina- represents Serbian ethnic population/territory (by genetic/linguistic origin), which was declared as Croatian population/territory (in my previous post in this thread I offered links about it!). Originally (before brutal assimilation and cultural/physical violence/genocide on them), it was Catholic and Orthodox Serbian population. This population uses even today their own SHTOKAVIAN Serbian dialect (on Serb. - stokavski).
This is interesting. Do you have any maps of your version of the ethnolinguistic divisions?

Mac Seafraidh
Thursday, January 4th, 2007, 09:40 AM
http://album.foto.alice.it/MmY3NTczNjU3MjczMmY3NjY5NzI3NDc1NjE2YzVm NzU3MzY1NzI3MzJmNjY2Zjc0NmY3MDcyNjU3NjY5 NjU3NzJmMzEzMjMyMmY3MjZmNjI3NTcyNzI2ZjZl NjU2MTc2NjE2ZTc0Njk2MTc2NjE2ZTc0Njk0MDc0 Njk2ZTJlNjk3NDJm/medium_df2921aef61227543cee56ec09d20a0a/view_foto.php

some_one_number_one
Thursday, January 4th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Crow:
Some about Sorbs is in general, typical. Lusatian Sorbs (from Poland, Czech rep and Germany) are very relative by look to your nation - strong dinarid and nordoid component.
Anyway concept of slavinisation iranian nations/tribes is imo from one point good, but also irracional.

Oswiu:
"Nonsense. It's a Turkic word, and is found first among the Kok Turks in the 6th Century, long before Slavs got anywhere near the Urals."
Nope, from turko-tatar language, that mean brave man


---
maybe all slavs are iranians? 'Saqualiba' / 'Svants' that dont mean for you? :D

Oswiu
Friday, January 5th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Anyway concept of slavinisation iranian nations/tribes is imo from one point good, but also irracional.
I myself actually support the idea, but only for a minority of the Slavs and their elites back in the 6th Century. Many overexaggerate it.

Nope, from turko-tatar language, that mean brave man
THen why was it recorded in Old Turkic, before the Tatar language even existed?

'Saqualiba' / 'Svants' that dont mean for you? :D
What is this 'svant'?
I know your Svantovit [not personally :wsg], but His name is just a Polski form of what elsewhere became Svetovit.

Crow
Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 06:51 PM
Crow:
Anyway concept of slavinisation iranian nations/tribes is imo from one point good, but also irracional.

some_one_number_one


You said: ``Anyway concept of slavinisation iranian nations/tribes is imo from one point good, but also irracional.``


Listen, you didn’t understand me correctly or I wasn’t clear.

Nobody say that `` slavinisation iranian nations/tribes`` ever happened (some theories just speculate- probably for political reasons; latest scientific results showing in other dirrection).

What I want to say (on the base of numerous articles that I sow) is that Slavs (read Proto Slavs) exist in continuity from very long time ago and on continental (even on intercontinental) level.

So, it isn’t about `slavificatiuon of Iranians`. It’s probably opposite. It’s clear to me that old Slavs of Iran (Persia) were pushed from their territories from Ind-Persia. Those Slavs who didn’t chose to migrate in direction of Europe, stays and were assimilated by advancing black races.

Now, somebody can say that I point on possibility that Iran was place from where Slavs originate and that they lately come in Europe.

No, it’s not that what I point on!

Story about Proto Slavs is more fascinated than that.

As Holly Nestor of Kiev mentioned: ``All Slavs originates from Danube`` and they reached (populated) even territories of old Persia (name Persia probably represent just one proof for that- PERSIA). I am sure that myth about Aryans represent old Proto Slavic story and historic trace how blacks pushed Whites far from Ind river.

So, those Slavs who were pushed from Iran/Persia just come back to Europe/Danube, from where starts their story and where was spring of White Garden. They come back among their brothers as ancient refuges.

Modern science abandons myth about great migration and, starting to confirm continuity of Slavic existence on their European territories (genetic results-on the bases of archeological findings (based on old data) are crucial for this). But, in the same time we know for constant inter Slavic migrations (inside of Slavic world/on the level of tribes). One of those migrations was initiated because Proto Slavs were pushed from their far Eastern territories (Ind-Persia).


Remember, crucial thing in all this is that Slavs were populated on continental/intercontinental level. For that reason we have so many differences on sub-racial level among Slavs (characteristics of all Europoids). For that reason, we mistake if we think that all Slavs must be blond. No, how could be that possible if they were/are spread on such a huge geographical territory for very long time and when they were adopted on very different climatic/geographical conditions.

Slavs adopt on different climatic conditions but, all of us originate from Danube, from Balkan part of Danube were our ancestors come after Ice Age was finished. That was among first regions in Europe free from ice (genetics confirmed this -you’ll get links!).

There is only one thing what I’m not sure. I’m not sure about Proto Slavic situation when they come on Danube after Ice Age was finished.

We can’t be sure when Proto Slavs were extracted as unique ethos in genetic, cultural and linguistic sense. I mean, we just have to see are that happened hire in Europe (on Balkan) or maybe even before Ice Age was finished, on territories from where they come on Balkan.

If so, that could mean continuity from more then 25.000 years and that’s quite fascinated if true.

For now, I would stay on position that Slavs exist minimum 4000 to 10.000 years as unique ethos.

How? On the base of facts from linguistic science.

Linguistics is on position that it was needed minimum 2000 years that modern Slavic languages diverse from old Proto Slavic.

We know that Slavic languages are diverse more then 2000 years. That, plus 2000 years for process of diversification and that is minimum 4000 years.

Now, we need to add thousands of years how much was needed that one language can be form.

So, its obvious to me that ethnic grupation which created Proto Slavic must be formed even maybe 10.000 years before Christ.

What is fascinated in this is that entire modern science showing exactly in direction of this scenario.

Moreover, entire European history will be rewritten when we get final results for Proto Slavs and we will get batter picture about Germanic history and history of other Europeans. Revolution in historic science is in front of us.


But, what we can say for sure is that all Europeans are on their own in Europe. We just need technical details from past which we share between us.


We don’t need that politicians create our history. For progress, we need true facts.

Crow
Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 09:06 PM
What's wrong with the nice understandable theory that connects the name with the Ukrainian verb poserbitisya [to adopt, absorb into a clan/community]? Makes perfect sense to me.

Oswiu,


You said:

``What's wrong with the nice understandable theory that connects the name with the Ukrainian verb poserbitisya [to adopt, absorb into a clan/community]? Makes perfect sense to me.``


Hire is what I said:

``It was prefix SRB (in some form) > SRBATIA (looks similar with Serbian/Slavic word `bratia` and means brotherhood and on that principle, as linguistic science propose), members of that ethos called themselves `brothers`- BRACA (read C as `c` in Italian Ciao). `SR` was addition (further development) of form BRAT (but on Serbian also SABRAT!) and we got SRBAT > SRBATIA > SABRATIA, etc.

Form `SR` probably represent (by meaning on Serbian/Slavic languages) just short designation (indication) for `NUMEROUS BROTHERS`, numerous people/tribes, many brothers, brothers united in something (in defense, military action, to bring some decision, society, etc.). Even today we have words like SABOR, ZBOR with meaning of SKUPSTINA (parliament).``



After all, that what you said doesn’t exclude my approach. Just, your approach can be in fact very genesis of evolution of Serbian name (as universal Slavic name).

It is possible that word for BRAT (brother on Serbian), SABRACA (just different form of brother with addition of prefix `SA`), evolutes from form POSERBITSYA (on Serbian- `prisvojiti`.

So, it can be possible that designation SABRACA coming from fact that Slavic ancestors [(in very beginning; before they developed agriculture and before they find way to spread with reserves of food!!! Evolution of this word is one more big proof for long continual existence)] were people which collected something (food for example; foragers) or, even as you mentioned (in further social evolution)- `to adopt, absorb [[people (many!?)]] into a clan/community`.

On the end, we again coming to designation for `numerous people/brothers`, no matter what makes them brothers and how come to that- that they are SABRACA (brothers).

Polish `schlachta` and fact that linguistic science established connection between some form of Serbian name and Sarmatian name telling us that SARMATIAN name can be remain of universal Slavic name and that we in fact have proof that possible tribal Serbian (Sarmatian) name (in time when that was universal Slavic name!) evolved into some form of designation for type of some ancient government/society (possible tribal alliance).

After, destruction (end) of that old Slavic society/alliance, forms of Sarmatian/Serbian name stays preserved in some regions and somewhere was replaced by local tribal names.


Possible scenario (on example of Poland)…

For example, on territories of today’s Poland existed Slavs which way of life closely was connected with agriculture, with land (peasants). On Serbian we would say POLJANI, or exactly POLJACI (people who uses/depend on land).

So, it was possible that POLJANI/POLJACI were SARMATIANS/SERBS (some form of Serbian name) who lived from agriculture. Further, POLJANI were part of great Slavic (Serbian) tribal alliance and they preserved memory on that time thru `Sarmatian schlachta` or even thru Serbian/Croatian name on their territory (original form or Latinized version of that name- if so!?).

I would say that it must be that, in old days Poland was very important for entire Slavdom if Poles preserved memory on Serbian name on Polish territory but, what is most (!) important Poles preserved memory on social dimension of that name `Sarmatian schlachta`. I would underline that from all Slavs only Poles remembered that tribal (Sarmatian/Serbian) name evolved into social organization alliance/form of government`.

It must be that my polish brothers gave many nobility/warlords to ancient `Slavic brotherhood`. Polish tradition in martial arts makes me even surer in this. Yes, on territory of Poland existed CORE of Slavdom in one period of time. For some reason, that core was transferred on territory of Poland (deeper in Slavic inland!) from the territories of key trade routes in today’s Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, North Italy (RASENA- Etrurians), Baltik. Possible reason? [It could be catastrophic-destructive Semitic attack on Slavic centers on Mediterranean coast. Very possible Egyptians or latter- Greek hoplites and Roman legions].


You see, Lusatian and Balkan Serbs (maybe even Croats and Czech Boii- if so!? :) ) can be proud because we preserved old universal Slavic name in use (some form of Serbian name) but, Poles did even more.

They preserved memory on `pick of meaning` of that name and true sense of last period of existence of that name.

Latter, that name was replaced by name SLAVJANI (in many different forms) with meaning `people who can communicate between each other`. So, BRACA/SABRACA which can communicate between each others.

On Serbian/Slavic…

BRACA/SABRACA koja mogu (which can) SLOVITI medju sobom (between each others).

Replacement of old SERBIAN name probably occurred in condition when ancient Slavic society/alliance was destroyed and when numerous Slavic/Serbian/Sarmatian (tribes) often starts to face with people which used different language. It happened possible when our ancestors were turned into slaves/often object of slavery (not only because of that, of course). Maybe, from that time Latin word for slaves coming from Slavic name (`SCLAVUS`) and before that word `SERVANT` comes from Serbian name (everything is perfectly logic, for people who wants to see facts).


So, in some conditions Sarmatians/Serbians/Slavs become aware that `they still can communicate between each others` and that their connection continues but, now primarily thru language and not primarily on blood brotherhood (not united in formal society/alliance based on blood/origin).

Crow
Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 11:15 PM
The sword stuff doesn't convince me, but the Szlachta thing is reasonable enough.

I know what I speak.


In middle Ages, Polish nobility was very closely connected with Serbian noblemen’s, no matter on differences- Catholicism/Orthodoxy. Our nobility was connected with marriages and intensively exchanged their martial (military) traditions.

Poles were first Slavs who came in aid on call of Serbian nobility for brotherly help against advancing Ottoman Turks.


I will use this opportunity to say one GREAT thanks to sons of Poland who were above things which divided Slavs (all Christians) and who reacted on the base of ancient genetic code and principles of Slavic solidarity and brotherhood.

Without Poles, Russians wouldn`t get enough time to prepare their respond on Ottoman threat. In that time, Russia was still weak because of clash with Mongol hordes. Without Poles, Russian aid would come too late for Serbs and Bulgarians.


Just to mention- the famous Polish King, Jan Sobieski (the architect behind the great Turkish defeat at the gates of Vienna) dedicated his life to struggle against Turks (even when Turks already occupy Balkan Slavs) and was one of the `Draconists` and even Grand master of `Sacred Order of the Dragon of Saint George.` He and his knights, valiantly beats Turks.


So, I say- thank you Poles for every single drop of your blood that you gave against Turkish beasts. Thank you from the bottom of my being. Thank you in the name of all Serbs. Thank you for all Balkan Slavs. Thank you for Mother Slavia and for all children of White Garden, for Europe. Thank you. Thank you very much. We- Serbs won’t forget!


Oswiu, you are familiar with Slavic languages. You would understand this...


Polish Martial Arts


http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/hetman.gif


Library SIGNUM POLONICUM

Biblioteka SIGNUM POLONICUM

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/strona1.html

TRAKTAT SZERMIERCZY
O SZTUCE WALKI
POLSKĄ SZABLĄ HUSARSKĄ

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/tn_okladkat.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img5/zbyszekzszabla.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img5/pojedynek.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/tn_rys3.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/tn_rys4.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/tn_rys8.jpg

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img5/autorzszabla2.jpg


Untill XV century

do XV wieku

http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/bibliotekadoXVw.html


Thietmar /975-1018/, Kronika

Bruno z Kwerfurtu / - 1009/, List do króla Henryka II

Anonim tzw. Gall, Kronika Polska

Wincenty Kadłubek /ok. 1150 - 1223/, Chronica Polonorum

Jan Długosz /1415-1480/, Roczniki, czyli Kroniki sławnego Królestwa Polskiego

Jan Ostrorog, Monumentum pro comitiis generalibus Regini sub Rege Casimiro pro Reipublicae ordinatione congestum Księgi brzeskie


JAGIELLONIAN UNIVERSITY

http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/UJ

Tadeusz Sulimirski (1898-1983), historian and archaeologist, experts on the ancient Sarmatians

Sarmatism

http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Sarmatism

Sarmatism was the dominant culture and ideology of szlachta (nobility social class) in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 16th century to 19th century. Together with Golden Liberty it formed the unique aspects of the Commonwealth culture.

The name came from alleged ancestors of the szlachta (Sarmatians). This belief became an important part of szlachta's culture and penetrated into all aspects of life and served to differentiate Polish szlachta from Western nobility (pludracy) and its culture. Sarmatian concept enshrined traditions, provincial village life, peace and pacifism, popularised eastern (almost oriental) clothing and looks (żupan, kontusz, sukmana, pas kontuszowy, delia, szabla), served to integrate the multiethnic nobility by creating an almost nationalist sense of unity and pride of the szlachta's political Golden Freedoms.

In its early, ideal form sarmatism looked like a good cultural movement: it supported religious belief, honesty, national pride, courage, equality and freedom. However as any doctrine that put some social class above others it became perverted in time. Late sarmatism transformed belief into intolerance and devotion, honesty into political naivity, pride into arrogance, courage into stubborness, queality and freedom of szlachta into nihilism.

Sarmatian art and writings

Sarmatian architecture was based on gothic architecture. Much of the szlachta residences were wooden.

In 19th century the sarmatian culture of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was portrayed and popularised by Polish writer, Henryk Sienkiewicz in his trilogy (Ogniem i Mieczem, Potop, Pan Wolodyjowski). In the 20th century, Sienkiewicz's trilogy has been filmed, and sarmatian culture became the subject of many modern books (by Jacek Komuda and others), songs (like that of Jacek Kaczmarski) and even role-playing games like Dzikie Pola.


Here are some Polish uniforms in Sarmatian (szlachta) tradition:

Jan Zamojski XVI

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/9527/461pxjanzamoyskifa8.jpg

Uniform from XVIII

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/7344/strjszlacheckivz3.jpg

Uniform from XIX

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7571/434pxmikolajzyblikiewictj7.jpg

some_one_number_one
Tuesday, January 9th, 2007, 03:50 PM
We (Poles) are specific nation, with our own typical mentality and i can say nobody can uderstand us. Our tradition, culture, mentality are not this same as in other slavic nations. We are pessimists and also optimists, realists, friendly, brave, naive etc. peoples.


Sarmatism

http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Sarmatism

Sarmatism was the dominant culture and ideology of szlachta (nobility social class) in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 16th century to 19th century. Together with Golden Liberty it formed the unique aspects of the Commonwealth culture.

The name came from alleged ancestors of the szlachta (Sarmatians). This belief became an important part of szlachta's culture and penetrated into all aspects of life and served to differentiate Polish szlachta from Western nobility (pludracy) and its culture. Sarmatian concept enshrined traditions, provincial village life, peace and pacifism, popularised eastern (almost oriental) clothing and looks (żupan, kontusz, sukmana, pas kontuszowy, delia, szabla), served to integrate the multiethnic nobility by creating an almost nationalist sense of unity and pride of the....
look on my signature ;-)



Just to mention- the famous Polish King, Jan Sobieski (the architect behind the great Turkish defeat at the gates of Vienna) dedicated his life to struggle against Turks (even when Turks already occupy Balkan Slavs) and was one of the `Draconists` and even Grand master of `Sacred Order of the Dragon of Saint George.` He and his knights, valiantly beats Turks.
Im far "relive" of Sobiesky, and of Janin's Clan. Our (Sobieski and also my) arms of coast on polish eagle:
http://www.waleczny.yoyo.pl/godla/orzel8.jpg

Btw. Hussary in Polish army is from "ancient" middle ages serbian worriors(soliders of fortune).

Regards!

Ps. what is slavdom?

Articles about slavs in PL language:
many of them: http://taraka.pl/spis.php?filter=temat&value=O
origin of slavs (concepts, genetics and others): http://www.mikilo.prh.pl/slavic/articles.php?id=10
also many articles: http://www.slavinja.prv.pl/

Immortal Warrior
Saturday, January 13th, 2007, 11:00 PM
Here is a video of the Croats from Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnkKQfqj3TE

I have never met a Croat in my life.Very interesting none the less.

some_one_number_one
Sunday, January 14th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Here is a video of the Croats from Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnkKQfqj3TE

I have never met a Croat in my life.Very interesting none the less.

...zumba zumba zumba...
:D
nope, this video is not so good

Sami
Tuesday, January 16th, 2007, 03:13 AM
those swords are typical Mongol-Turkic products
where do Polish or Serbian guys found that?

Oswiu
Tuesday, January 16th, 2007, 04:12 AM
those swords are typical Mongol-Turkic products
where do Polish or Serbian guys found that?
And guns are from China.
We shouldn't be above recognising that the Turkics were very good at making weapons, and we shouldn't be surprised that the style of an effective piece of equipment was borrowed.