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norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Intermarine race (Czupkiewicz) - Light pigmented, mesocephalic, medium to wide faced, possessing lower orbits and proportional face, straight and narrow nosed type of early Slavs. Metrically close to ancient steppe Aryans http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5622
The most important racial element of contemporary Slavs. The most frequent in the early settlements.
Poland
http://i.wp.pl/a/i/spotkania2/0/0/0/14/86/60.jpg
Sweden?
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12317
Bosnia
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15037
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15038
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15039
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15040

Polak
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:03 PM
But isn't this just a type of Nordic? Eastern Nordic?

Is there enough of a difference to make this a seperate phenotype?

Keltic Nordics are more different from Halstatts than this intermarine race.

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Silesian girl- according to v. Eickstedt she was Nordic- well in the range of Arya type
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11493

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Czupkiewicz differenced both types by CI – 75,9 and FI – 90 UFI 57? , and shape of oculus.
Czekanowski also pointed that so called North-west Nordic types are partly (originally 50%) descendants of Mediterranean Cro-Magnons (dark, dolichocephalic narrow faced types)

Polak
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Czupkiewicz differenced both types by CI – 75,9 and FI – 90 UFI 57? , and shape of oculus.
Czekanowski also pointed that so called North-west Nordic types are partly (originally 50%) descendants of Mediterranean Cro-Magnons (dark, dolichocephalic narrow faced types)



In which case, how did the intermarine race form?

Does it not also include Med strains?

So are we to conclude that north-west Nordics and north-east Nordics evolved seperately?

But isn't it a bit too much of a co-incidence that both the north-west and north-east Nordic nucleui ended up side by side (around the North and Baltic seas).

Johannes de León
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:37 PM
If anyone says 'osteuropid' I'm going to faint! :D Osteuropid.

EDIT: ok, sorry to hi jack this highbrow discussion. just ignore me. :D

Awar
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:45 PM
:faints: :D

Are there any mentioned differences in the skin-type between the Slavic/Arya type and other Nordid types? To me, Slavs seem to have a bit thicker, meatier skin. Or am I just imagining it?

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 06:52 PM
In which case, how did the intermarine race form?

Does it not also include Med strains?

So are we to conclude that north-west Nordics and north-east Nordics evolved seperately?

But isn't it a bit too much of a co-incidence that both the north-west and north-east Nordic nucleui ended up side by side (around the North and Baltic seas).

Czupkiewicz point Eastern Europe as a place of orign of Arya type while Czekanowski- also Central Europe
http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=120120&postcount=1
Med strain is really rare in NE Europe and CE now. As far as I know dolichocephalic dark element was noted by Krzywicki and later by Bunak around Human/ Ukraine - 6%- Pontics
I do not think they evolved seperately. Presence of HG3 in Skandinavia is important trait and could not be omited. Whether HG2 was oryginally depigmented in the Northern Europe is another question.

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Previously posted Pomeranians
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3311
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3314
this one is closer to Littoral Nordic but still rather medium faced
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3322

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Serbia
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4155
Russia
http://quickfound.net/images/sports/wta_2003/sharapova_190x200_los_angeles_08_04_2003 _press.jpghttp://www.onlineathens.com/images/070103/tennis.jpg
http://www.model.ru/cgi-bin/sizepic.pl/3397/1.jpg
http://www.model.ru/cgi-bin/sizepic.pl/3397/2.jpg
http://www.model.ru/cgi-bin/sizepic.pl/3397/3.jpg
http://www.model.ru/cgi-bin/sizepic.pl/3397/4.jpg

norda
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 10:46 PM
:faints: :D

Are there any mentioned differences in the skin-type between the Slavic/Arya type and other Nordid types? To me, Slavs seem to have a bit thicker, meatier skin. Or am I just imagining it?
I am not very sure about skin structure differeces but from my observations Arya type tends to be stronger built. This type used to be shorter then NW types but it seems it was due to different conditions of life. Its interesting that 100 years ago metrically proper Nordics (CI<75, FI >90) among Slavs were even shorter (1660mm) then light mesocephalic types (Arya).
Good examples of Arya type Czech
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12798
http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=119682&postcount=2
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12808
and Polish girl
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12895
http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=120394&postcount=3

Awar
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 03:25 AM
Great set of pictures, and great explanations.
I have nothing to add, just to ask what do you think about the pictures I posted?

norda
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 06:52 AM
Great set of pictures, and great explanations.
I have nothing to add, just to ask what do you think about the pictures I posted?
Its hard say whether FI is lower then 90. I think its on the border what could be sign that she is altered or just closer to proper Nordic or rather Corded type which also appeared among Slavs but is much less frequent. The other features fits quite good into Arya category.

Triglav
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 03:07 PM
It's quite a common type here as well. Walking back home I've seen a few nice damsels of that type in the streets. ;) Perhaps one third of all gracile Nordics could be attributed to that type.

How about these examples?

Slovenia:

http://www.lepotainstil.net/LepotainStil/lis_sprasuje/barbra_drnac/images/Img_1717.jpg



White Russia:

http://staryolsa.com/img/2003-09-mensk/fota05.jpg



Great thread, nords. Forgot to mention that in your rep points. I got carried away a bit. ;)

Awar
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 03:08 PM
That type I've mostly seen in Vojvodina, but there are individuals all around the Balkans.

Triglav
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 03:18 PM
That type I've mostly seen in Vojvodina, but there are individuals all around the Balkans.

Since Vojvodina belongs to the Pannonian racial continuum, I'd be surprised to learn otherwise.

Allenson
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Good thread folks. :)

I'm somewhat in line with Polak as they all seem rather Nordid to me except maybe the young fellow in the suit (four pics) who might show a bit-o-Baltid.

I would be surprised if Nordids in the NW and Nordids in the NE came to be under different conditions and in loactions remote from each other--except maybe the Keltic type as Polak has already alluded to. After all, there is the North Sea-Baltic Sea corridor and of course little in the way (physically speaking) to inhibit gene flow across the N. European Plain. From Amsterdam to Moscow! ;)

Übersoldat
Tuesday, October 5th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Those 'Arya types' are infact de-pigmented Alpines. Similar types you can find in Switzerland. I think we are speaking here about the Central European (basically Alpine) race, and not some semi-mythical race of the steppe.

http://www.rugbybasel.ch/players/jennysaunders.jpg
http://www.swisssemester.org/news/lucerne/groupandcar.jpg
http://www.agapeeurope.org/images/JenClaudia%2072.jpg
(Ignore the recent immigrant in the orange outfit)
http://ctech.e-technik.uni-ulm.de/picture_album/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Bangkok2002%20032.jpg

Triglav
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Those 'Arya types' are infact de-pigmented Alpines. Similar types you can find in Switzerland. I think we are speaking here about the Central European (basically Alpine) race, and not some semi-mythical race of the steppe.



Arya is more or less West Baltid. Alpine skull dimensions also differ considerably. By that token they should resemble Alpinid Borrebies more closely (Alpinism is, after all, a condition rather than a clear-cut type), which they don't. The people in the pictures you posted are by no means exclusively Alpinid either.

Awar
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 02:39 AM
Alpines are brachycephalic, with a lower-rooted nose than the Arya/Intermarine type.

Übersoldat
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 02:53 AM
Arya is more or less West Baltid. Alpine skull dimensions also differ considerably. By that token they should resemble Alpinid Borrebies more closely (Alpinism is, after all, a condition rather than a clear-cut type), which they don't.

Brachycephaly is a condition, but Alpinism is a subrace. Not every brachycephalic is Alpine.



The people in the pictures you posted are by no means exclusively Alpinid either.

Yes they are not because they are intermixed with northern races, it makes them less brachycephalic and less pigmented, almost identical to 'Arya type' posted by Norda.

http://i.wp.pl/a/i/spotkania2/0/0/0/14/86/60.jpg

Awar
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 02:57 AM
Not all brachycephals are Alpine, but, every Alpine is brachycephalic.

Dinarids, Borrebies, Armenoids etc. can be brachycephal, but Alpines are paedomorphous brachycephals.

Stríbog
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 03:00 AM
West Baltidz rule :D

norda
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 07:37 AM
Those 'Arya types' are infact de-pigmented Alpines. Alpinic or East-Alpine theory is quite interesting however:
a)evolution of mesocephalic Intermarine race is not connected with Alpines
b)alpines weren’t noted in the regions of Arya ethnogenesis
c)they can’t be found in pure form in the regions of contemporary Arya concentration neither
d)moreover there are no signs of stronger anthropologic Alpine influence
d)both types create transition areas as well as transition types.

Ross
Thursday, October 7th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Intermarine race (Czupkiewicz) - Light pigmented, mesocephalic, medium to wide faced, possessing lower orbits and proportional face, straight and narrow nosed type of early Slavs.

sounds like the Baltic type


Metrically close to ancient steppe Aryans

to robust bearers of the Dniepr-Donetzk culture


The most important racial element of contemporary Slavs.

In Poles, Western Byelorussians and Western Russians.

Majority of Russians belong to the differnt type.

Genetic similarity between Northern Slavs can be explained as the result of intermixture of the same elements, thus thou proportions are different (when it comes to anthropology) the same elements make us close to each other, or maybe it's because of the same origins of the two types in question, or both theories are true.


The most frequent in the early settlements.

I think it was a somewhat less robust mix on average (speaking about Poland).

norda
Saturday, October 9th, 2004, 12:53 PM
sounds like the Baltic type

It depends how we define Baltic. Generally it’s a synonym of East Baltic so the answer is no.


to robust bearers of the Dniepr-Donetzk culture
http://img2.imgspot.com/u/04/204/18/anthrotribes.JPG
I can not see other corelation with contemporary pigmentation.

btw Not only, also to northern branch of Steppe cultures. Southern indeed shared more Corded features.


In Poles, Western Byelorussians and Western Russians.

Majority of Russians belong to the differnt type.

I think we are all aware of higher Corded types presence in Russia.


Genetic similarity between Northern Slavs can be explained as the result of intermixture of the same elements, thus thou proportions are different (when it comes to anthropology) the same elements make us close to each other, or maybe it's because of the same origins of the two types in question, or both theories are true.

Genetic is indded a clue to reveal the thruth of ethnogenesis in the nearest future.


I think it was a somewhat less robust mix on average (speaking about Poland).
Demediteranization and nordicization (brachycephlization to typical Nordic mesocephaly) of N. Europe is common process.