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Ocko
Wednesday, July 6th, 2011, 06:22 PM
http://heithanissa.nl/_media/images/irminsul.jpg
The Irminsul is a symbol of saxons. To its meaning there are various options but finally nobody knows for sure. So here is what I think:

As Odin slaughtered the giant Ymir it is a representation of consciousness attacking energy/matter. Consciousness without energy is not able to accomplish anything therefore it needed to take energy and control and use it.

Matter had the nasty tendency to fall into pieces (to multiply). Consciousness therefore had to break down accordingly. Hence the creation of humans. (As a counteract consciousness tries to keep matter together, thats why we have a body while alive, when dead it falls apart)

In the creation of humans Odin blew Odem/breath into a little piece of wood his 'brothers' Vi and Veli blew too their gifts into the human being.

The Irminsul of the saxons was made out of wood and it had 3 elements. Thus for me it is the allegory of the human being. through the religious services and sacrifices they 'blew' allegorically elements into the pillar in a recreation-ritual. thus infusing matter with consciousness. It was allegorically meant to show outwardly what everyone should do inwardly: infuse his/her body with consciousness.

Through the religious services and rituals around that pillar it became charged with the intentions of the people around it. Thus it got its own 'power' as people around were influenced by it.

As christians destroyed it they destroyed the meaning of the religion of the saxons. obtaining consciousness was destroyed and replaced with 'belief' into a foreign God. Thus the human beings were robbed of their destiny and given a vile corruption instead, which turned them from diginfied free human beings into dumb submissive sheep, ready to be used by their manipulative religious overlords.

The Irminsul forsure had more meanings than that but it is one which seems to me part of it.











[/LEFT]

Neophyte
Wednesday, July 6th, 2011, 06:44 PM
The Irminsul forsure had more meanings than that but it is one which seems to me part of it.

The centre of the world, axis mundi, for sure; and the connection between the three worlds. Interestingly, these are properties that Christianity later came to ascribe to the cross at Golgotha.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 01:22 AM
It also had the shape of female reproductive organs which is another hint of the creation process. It is there were a new human being is created.

And as well a new spirituell human being should be created too

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 06:17 AM
the saxon (the tribename most likely comes from the german word Sassen, meaning something like settlers) believed that when the Irminsul would be destroyed the sky would be falling on them.

Now in german we use the word Himmel (Himmin in older german)for sky, but it also has the meaning of heaven. So the word means sky as well as heaven. The use of the meaning 'sky' is there fore intentional derogative, it is meant to show the saxons as mental imbeciles and that Christianity brought 'the light' to them. It is therefore a selfjustifying propaganda tool by christians.

So what it really meant is not that the sky would fall on them but heaven. As that is what christian said who justified that sacrileg of felling that column we have to be a bit more careful, as that is most likely propaganda to denigrate the heathen belief and to glorify the 'light' of christianity.

In christianity heaven is the place were God resides. It is a place where you go when you lived a 'sinless' life and became 'holy' (holy most likely derives from the german word Heil, which means something as heal in very broad sense. It describes most likely the lifeforce which heals not only the body and spirit but also the fate). The Gods and heaven are intricately connected to 'heil'.

As the Irminsul most likely presented the whole of their spirituel wisdom, their customs, their folkway, their lawsystem (it is related to the rune Tyr, the God of Justice and Law), their self-government etc, basically the whole make-up of their life they certainly believed if all that is breaking down their 'heaven' that means their inner connectedness and their consciousness will fail. Hence 'the heaven will fall down on them'. What it meant was the spirituell destruction.

Their whole life was centered on spirituell wisdom and maturity. The celebrations of the year, the lore, the honoring of ancestors, nature, spirits etc, their work was intricately connected to the Gods, the sacrifices at harvest, the praying for rain (still done as I was young but by the christian priest) and on and on and on, there was not a moment where things were not connected. They lived in a spirituell world. All that crushed down with christianity and the felling of their holy symbol.

They most likely lived a life 'in heaven' meaning in a certain state of consciousness, which allowed them to be connected to the Gods (Irmin is most likely Odin). Their way of life was meant to stay in this consciousness which was most likely called Himmin, or Himmel. When that state of consciousness was destroyed their state came crushing down into the wilderness of unrelgious life. Hence the heaven would fall down.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 06:45 AM
The Irminsul was also a Thingplace. At the thing there was also the 'court'. A rectangular space marked with a barrier (to day in english common law, the lawyers have to make the 'bar' exam). On the barrier only people were allowed to stand, who had 'standing' (Even today you have to have 'standing' in order that your case is treated at a court). the people who had 'standing' where the head of a clan/Sippe. That was connected to property rights. Property rights were not bound to individuals but to a clan/Sippe. The one of the Sippe who had 'standing' had the 'mundrecht'. (mund means mouth but transfigural speaking). In german we still use the Wort 'Vormund' meaning you take the cases and responsibility for someone (today children and mentally impaired people, in the past it was for all members of the clan/Sippe.

The judges (in german Richter, which means something like 'righter', somebody who is making something right again) were long trained and did not rule by law but by customs and general guidelines (for ex. Jedem das Seine = To everyone what is his). Their job was to find the right thing, the right decision, which brought everyone back into the right relationship with the whole. They were 3. one who defended, one who accused and one who should find the right balance between the contrahends and make a decision that satisfied everybody. Punishment was the last and least favored option as it did not heal the situation) The decision then was divined to see whether it was in line with the will of the Gods, who would override any decision made by humans.

In order to get things back in harmony one had to have a very high state of consciousness, The Godsoul. there was no way a judge could be corrupt or could favor anybody or misjudge for his own reason. There was no separation between 'religion' and daily life and everything. The consiousness and the will of the Gods penetrated everything.

The place for the Irminsul was also the thingplace, because it was a holy place. Therefore it had a stronger connection to the Gods. the place, the symbol of the Irminsul and the actions around it stood under the direct influence of the Gods. Destroying that destroyed everything a heathen stood for. A heathen itself was not separable from the Gods but was part of it.

Destroying the Irminsul was destroying the life of the heathens. Cast him into a destitute of inimaginable baseness and corruption, whatever was holy was destroyed by christians.

Charle-le-magne deceived the saxon chieftain and made them come unarmed to a negotiation. then he let them kill, over 5,000 of them. That most likely had been the spirituell elite of the saxon. With the holy men murdered there was not so much resistance in the common saxons therefore they could fell the Irminsul. An act of vile characters just finishing of a betrayed people who trusted the word of a 'christian'.

Ælfrun
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 07:01 AM
Irminsul is also perceived to be the world tree of Ash (Yggdrasil in old norse beliefs). This is from which Odin is created some say :)

Kaiserglb
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 07:52 AM
Though the Irminsul as a symbol is a subject of great debate regarding its importance, it can be said, at least, that what it represents is vastly important to all beings everywhere. Not just mankind but to all the beings in all the nine worlds which exist because of Yggdrasil.

paraplethon
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 02:18 PM
http://heithanissa.nl/_media/images/irminsul.jpg

The Irminsul of the saxons was made out of wood and it had 3 elements. Thus for me it is the allegory of the human being. through the religious services and sacrifices they 'blew' allegorically elements into the pillar in a recreation-ritual. thus infusing matter with consciousness. It was allegorically meant to show outwardly what everyone should do inwardly: infuse his/her body with consciousness.[/LEFT]

This axis could well be the same axis upon which numerous charkras are situated in the Vedic tradition, and the infusion of conciousness you speak of - the activation of said chakras, particularly if one were to consider the Yggdrasil/Nine Worlds connection.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 03:03 PM
the word 'sul' is the older version of 'Saeule' in german which means column.

As the axis you are talking about is running along the spine and that in german is named 'Wirbel-Saeule' (Whirl-column in a one to one translation) it could also be a representation of that.

As the Wirbelsaeule has the head on top of it and the head is considered the place for 'consciousness' the place of the Gods, the upper chakras (third eye and head chakra) are clearly connected to the cosmos and this would be destroyed through the destruction of their religious exercise the meaning could be explained through that as well.

It most likely is a blueprint of design in the human body to be found in other circumstances too and it is clearly divine.

wittwer
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 06:41 PM
The Irminsul is nothing less than the universal all sustaining pillar...

There's a recent one which was erected in the 1990's at Harbarnsen-Irmensul.




108697 Hey! It worked...

Neophyte
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 07:06 PM
(mund means mouth but transfigural speaking). In german we still use the Wort 'Vormund' meaning you take the cases and responsibility for someone (today children and mentally impaired people, in the past it was for all members of the clan/Sippe.

In Swedish: Förmyndare. -mynd- having to do with the mouth, as in harmynt (cleft lip and palate; har- from hare, which is hare in English, only pronounced differently).


Punishment was the last and least favored option as it did not heal the situation) The decision then was divined to see whether it was in line with the will of the Gods, who would override any decision made by humans.

Compensation was the leading principle of Germanic law. Crimes were seen primarily as being committed against the victim, not society. This is something those who fault Muslim countries for allowing criminals to escape punishment by paying blood money should bear in mind.


There was no separation between 'religion' and daily life and everything. The consiousness and the will of the Gods penetrated everything.

This is the great crime of the Christianity and the church, that is has externalized spirituality. Not that it could be in any other way with this foreign concoction.


Charle-le-magne deceived the saxon chieftain and made them come unarmed to a negotiation. then he let them kill, over 5,000 of them. That most likely had been the spirituell elite of the saxon. With the holy men murdered there was not so much resistance in the common saxons therefore they could fell the Irminsul. An act of vile characters just finishing of a betrayed people who trusted the word of a 'christian'.

Again: Kill the best of the Gentiles.

Well, back on topic now... ;)

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 07:18 PM
@ wittwer

as the allsustaining pillar upholding the cosmos that is a metaphor of the order of the cosmos, made by Odin as he slaughtered Ymir.

this order could be meant by that too.

I think it was part of the thinking of heathen to study that order so one could best participate in the creation process which is still ongoing and not finished. To be in harmony and uphold the order of the cosmos might have been a prime interest of the holy men of the saxons.

wittwer
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 07:23 PM
@ wittwer

as the allsustaining pillar upholding the cosmos that is a metaphor of the order of the cosmos, made by Odin as he slaughtered Ymir.

this order could be meant by that too.

Quite true. The fact of the matter is, the Irminsul is a powerful symbol of great antiquity. Both prechristian and post-christian. ;)

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 08:16 PM
On second thoughts the milky way looks like a column too and one even could also imagine the 2 arms.

Thus the order of the cosmos might be represented by the milky way and as an abstract of it by the Irminsul. (Also as Yggdrasil, the primeval tree).

The rule: as above so below

that that feature on the sky had mythological interpretation as the 'writing' of the Gods could also have led to the form of the Irminsul.

But as one sees more and more connection it becomes clear that it had been a central place in the spiritual believe of the saxons.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 11:41 PM
Snorri wrote many centuries ago:

This Odin with his brothers will be ruling heaven and earth

(me: heaven and earth: consciousness and matter)

Another name of Odin is Allfather: the father of all.


What it meant is that Odin is the consciousness forming everything. Most likely he formed everything as he was himself, meaning whatever forms one find it is a design which also is contained in Odin himself, in consciousness.

The Irminsul as a symbol contains most likely the core of Odin. Found at the foundation of many things.

Whatever form one finds it is connected to the most high, it is infact the most high.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 11:51 PM
given that forms are because Odin shaped it so then the form of the Irminsul IS Odin. If it were 'worshipped' then, then as Odin, not as a pillar.

paraplethon
Sunday, July 10th, 2011, 03:27 AM
On second thoughts the milky way looks like a column too and one even could also imagine the 2 arms.

Thus the order of the cosmos might be represented by the milky way and as an abstract of it by the Irminsul. (Also as Yggdrasil, the primeval tree).

The rule: as above so below

that that feature on the sky had mythological interpretation as the 'writing' of the Gods could also have led to the form of the Irminsul.

But as one sees more and more connection it becomes clear that it had been a central place in the spiritual believe of the saxons.

In bringing in the Milky Way into consideration one could also see various connexions with both the Swastika and the Black Sun: the swirling spiral of the galaxy mirrored in the likewise movement imparted by the Swastika, at its centre - its axis (the Irminsul as axis/pole) the unmoving centre imparting movement; The Black Sun.

The "Whirl" at the centre, the axis, being generation... coming into being, the expanding generative force towards a multiplicity of creation.

Lorithis
Thursday, June 14th, 2012, 05:40 PM
I was possibly wondering if anyone knew where to find a said "source"/ translation if you will, regarding the Runic insignia around that of the black sun (often thought to imbue within the outer ring a runic formulae most commonly attributed and apparently used by the Irminsul')? Any insight regarding this would be extremely helpful!!!!

Jamey Martin
Friday, June 15th, 2012, 06:09 PM
There is in fact no difference between the sky and heaven. Both are the same place, and it was in fact the Christians who were imbeciles.

The sky is where the gods and heroes of a peoples myths and legends dwell. This is best shown forth amongst the ancient Greeks, with their names of the planets and constellations, but we see it hinted at in ancient Hinduism where Dyaus (Divine/Heavenly Radiance) was sometimes perceived as a black horse (the night sky) draped in pearls (the stars) and in the Tir stanza of the Old English Rune Poem; a rune believed to have been be originally named for the diety Tiw; who's name is related to Dyaus' and the basic Indo-European word for god ... tiv in North Germanic.

To "go to heaven" once originally meant to ascend into the night sky and take one's place amongs tthe other "stars" of one's folk; ie. to enter into their myth and legendary. Naturally, this could never be the fate of everyone; and so most of us just go to the halls of our ancestors.

Catterick
Tuesday, April 19th, 2016, 05:29 PM
The name *Irmin is obviously related to Aryaman and such, but there is a lost mythology in the Germanic instance. Historical references to the Irminsuls are not especially informative. People therefore feel as though they are free to impose any so-called facts on the evidence they wish.

An Irminsul sounds like a maypole to be honest.

Leliana
Tuesday, April 19th, 2016, 06:58 PM
The name *Irmin is obviously related to Aryaman and such, but there is a lost mythology in the Germanic instance.

Mehhh! You really have the habit to link a lot of Germanic stuff with exotic cultures. :shutup I begin to see an agenda, and I don't like what I see. :shutup It's unfunded to relate Irminsul with 'Aryaman' and in the same way it's far-fetched that you equate the goddess Skadi with Athene like you did yesterday. That are some fragile assumptions! You could link anything with anything if you ignore causalities and flaws in logics and history. :uhoh I'm for evidence-based arguments. You've written that you're into Indian-/Vedic-/Aryan mythology and esoteric practices and sorry, I don't think that you're without bias.

'Irminsul' and its ending '-sul' is related with German 'Säule' which means pillar and that's what Irminsul was. A pillar. Prefix 'Irmin-' is a perfectly Germanic word btw, meaning 'large'.

And 'No' we aren't emigrated Indians and 'No' Hinduism is not part of our culture. You can happily feel a 'spiritual bond' with that filthy wogs who bath in that reeking sewage Ganges but I don't take delusion as data.

Catterick
Tuesday, April 19th, 2016, 07:05 PM
Mehhh! You really have the habit to link a lot of Germanic stuff with exotic cultures. :shutup I begin to see an agenda, and I don't like what I see. :shutup It's unfunded to relate Irminsul with 'Aryaman' and in the same way it's far-fetched that you equate the goddess Skadi with Athene like you did yesterday. That are some fragile assumptions! You could link anything with anything if you ignore causalities and flaws in logics and history. :uhoh I'm for evidence-based arguments. You've written that you're into Indian-/Vedic-/Aryan mythology and esoteric practices and sorry, I don't think that you're without bias.

'Irminsul' and its ending '-sul' is related with German 'Säule' which means pillar and that's what Irminsul was. A pillar. Prefix 'Irmin-' is a perfecly Germanic word btw, meaning 'large'.

And 'No' we aren't emigrated Indians and 'No' Hinduism is not part of our culture.

No one has said we are Indians. Instead people from the Black Sea went both to India and Germania. And if you think German, Greek and Hindu myths are unrelated, are without common structure, you are wrong. Read some comparative religion before talking about it, Leilana.

Now for the German notion of the Milky Way as Irmingweg, there is a connection here to Vedic Aryman that you would find exotic. Aryaman is connected both to milk and to the Milky Way. It would just be nice were there more knowledge.

Comparative myth as an agenda indeed. Whatever next. :D :D :D

Shadow
Tuesday, April 19th, 2016, 08:46 PM
The Irminsul is the world axis. The world axis is also represented by Metternachsberg, Midnight mountain. Over this center point resides the Schwarzesonne, the black sun.