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View Full Version : How Similar is Celtic and Germanic Culture and Physical Appearance?



Goomer
Thursday, May 26th, 2011, 07:30 AM
My apologies if this post repeats any previous post ahead of time. I am new here so please bear with me.

I've always thought of Celtic and Germanic culture to be, from an ethnic standpoint, very similar.

For example, I am a 100% admixture of Celtic and Germanic. Because my heritage includes every country from the British Isles, as well as Germany, Holland, and France....it would seem to me that I can't really separate the Germanic side of me from the Celtic side!! Basically, I see myself as 100% Germanic overall....am I wrong?

The two cultures have similar myths and art. Celts and Germanics LOOK almost identical to me....

Is there really that much of a distinction? I'd be very interested in hearing the input from those who know a lot more about this topic than I do!

Thank you very much.

The Aesthete
Thursday, May 26th, 2011, 09:24 AM
Physically there is virtually no difference

Culturally it is greater but not that great

I can think of few countries more culturally similar to Ireland than England

Goomer
Thursday, May 26th, 2011, 09:28 AM
Physically there is virtually no difference

Culturally it is greater but not that great

I can think of few countries more culturally similar to Ireland than England
So, do you see the two as the same? For example, can a person belong to this website who is say....100% Irish or Welsh?

The Aesthete
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 10:18 AM
I put most emphasis on racial identity so yes I virtually do

SpearBrave
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 10:46 AM
So, do you see the two as the same? For example, can a person belong to this website who is say....100% Irish or Welsh?

Well I think it more has to do if they identify with being Germanic, I think we may have discussed this before but I'm not sure where the thread is.

Since most Irish seem to identify with being Celtic and not Germanic I think there is where the stumbling block is so to speak. I might be wrong but I think it based more on cultural identity than racial identity.

Goomer
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 02:40 PM
I put most emphasis on racial identity so yes I virtually do

Thank you. I was wondering about this for a long time. I have another question....how would I determine which subrace I belong to? Based on my ancestry alone....it is my guess that I am some mix of Alpinid and Nordid.

Thanks again!

Goomer
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 02:41 PM
Well I think it more has to do if they identify with being Germanic, I think we may have discussed this before but I'm not sure where the thread is.

Since most Irish seem to identify with being Celtic and not Germanic I think there is where the stumbling block is so to speak. I might be wrong but I think it based more on cultural identity than racial identity.

How about for the person that identifies themselves as both? That's how I see myself...and the understanding I have of both cultures is that they are extremely similar in nearly every way.

Gall-Gaidheal
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 02:55 PM
that's ridiculous, if you strictly go off of the racial identity of people. There are dark haired people capable of producing blonde hair offspring, with the right people. My ancestry has had a recent irish addition, but that still doesn't denote the fact or the matter my dna is germanic.

Irish and English have quite a good amount of genetic ties. the difference is culture, and language.

Alfadur
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 02:58 PM
"Germanic" is not even a race. Maybe it used to be that way, but now it's just a cultural group. Even different "Germanics" don't look alike - the typical Scandinavian look is very different from the English look.

So no, I wouldn't have a problem raising a family with a Celt or a Slav or a fair-skinned South European. The differences are mostly cultural, and those can easily be overcome.

Goomer
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 03:12 PM
that's ridiculous, if you strictly go off of the racial identity of people. There are dark haired people capable of producing blonde hair offspring, with the right people. My ancestry has had a recent irish addition, but that still doesn't denote the fact or the matter my dna is germanic.

Irish and English have quite a good amount of genetic ties. the difference is culture, and language.

Is this directed at me?

Svartljos
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 03:41 PM
My apologies if this post repeats any previous post ahead of time. I am new here so please bear with me.

I've always thought of Celtic and Germanic culture to be, from an ethnic standpoint, very similar.

For example, I am a 100% admixture of Celtic and Germanic. Because my heritage includes every country from the British Isles, as well as Germany, Holland, and France....it would seem to me that I can't really separate the Germanic side of me from the Celtic side!! Basically, I see myself as 100% Germanic overall....am I wrong?


In my opinion you are wrong for several reasons. Firstly, as someone has already said, Germanic is actually a linguistic term for the most part, originally spoken by various small groups of genetically related people, but this doesn't have to be the case today. From what I've seen, people's genetic similarity (as far as indigineous population is concerned) is more related to geographic proximty than language.

Another note is that the Celts were at one point wide spread in Europe, as far as Turkey. I don't know if you would consider these people Celtic today.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Celts_in_Europe2.png/360px-Celts_in_Europe2.png

As far as Celtic and Germanic being the same thing that's wrong too. From a linguistic perspective, Celtic and Italic languages share features that suggest they were either descended from the same branch of proto-indo-european (not the same one as Germanic) or that they were in proximity to eachother and retained similar features. The same is the case for Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages. The languages are very different, and consider the sentence structure in Irish: verb subject object. Very foreign. Although the cultures in the remaining Celtic nations are probably pretty similar to the major countries near them (they are all peripheral areas. Ireland/Wales/Man etc. to England, Brittany to France, Galicia to the rest of Iberia). I think it was probably always the case that they were similar to their neighbours.

Finally, being French doesn't necessarily mean you are "celtic" or "germanic" tracing from that ancestor. Depending on where your ancestor came from and where their ancestors came from, they could have had Arab, Roman, Greek, Spanish, Basque, or whatever else ancestors in addition to Celtic and Germanic ones.

Gall-Gaidheal
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 04:40 PM
Is this directed at me?

it was a comment in general. MY point is you can not separate germanics and celts ethnically. they are hard to distinguish on the basis on anthropology, genetically one can, but that can be argued on micro scales too.

Celtic and Germanic are cultural and linguistic spheres. Germanic is linguistically unique among Proto-indo-european. There is a belief that German could be a pidgin of PIE and the native language people spoke back then.

Hence you have many philologists regarding the germanic languages and the evolution. Like Grimm's law, Verner's law, and Holtzmann's law. The gemanic Substrate hypothesis is intriguing, and believable.

Unregistered
Friday, May 27th, 2011, 08:58 PM
Actually there were two types of Celts.The orginal Iron age Celts lived in Austria and Switzerland during Iron age or before and spread to other countries and were racially similiar to Germanic peoples of the Germany and other Germanic countries,orginal Slavs,Finnic peoples etc.Another type of Celts were the duplicate Celts who were living in Great Britain who adopted the Celtic culture,language but basically they were of the meditarranean stock.Present English are partly of meditarranean blood like the Irish,Welsh.

Naglfari
Saturday, May 28th, 2011, 03:06 AM
Sorry not on topic.

Neophyte
Saturday, May 28th, 2011, 04:05 AM
The two cultures have similar myths and art. Celts and Germanics LOOK almost identical to me....

Of course they do. If you look at this article:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0040004

you will see that the Irish and the Scandinavians and the English cluster together. From this analysis, you could not really distinguish a Swede, a Dutchman and an Irishman genetically. What we see here is really tight Western European cluster, including both Celts and Germanics, and a somewhat looser Mediterranean one.

Goomer
Saturday, May 28th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Thank you all. These replies are very helpful:)

Wodens Day
Saturday, May 28th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Of course they do. If you look at this article:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0040004

you will see that the Irish and the Scandinavians and the English cluster together. From this analysis, you could not really distinguish a Swede, a Dutchman and an Irishman genetically. What we see here is really tight Western European cluster, including both Celts and Germanics, and a somewhat looser Mediterranean one.

There are Celtic, Irish and English genes in England but they are not necessarily melded into one block. The Irish and English gene maps overlap because there are a lot of Irish economic immigrants in England and a lot of Germanic migrants in Ireland, not because the English and the Irish, or their mixed offspring, have the same genetic makeup.

Social factors prevent intermixing. I once dated a a girl for years who I pursued, in my naivety, because she looked as saxon as I do. Her mother did too and I got on with her mother, but her father never accepted me, banned me from the house in the beginning, and now I recognise that he had scottish ancestry. My ex always seemed to be attracted to men with celtic names and ended up marrying one, and so has her sister. So I believe there are powerful factors which prevent intermixing, even between closely related tribes.

Germaniathane
Sunday, April 8th, 2018, 08:11 AM
Celtic and Germanic cultures are quite similar due to the fact that they all originate from the Beaker Folk people and culture as recent studies show. Slight physical differences show that blond hair is a little more frequent among Germanics, while red hair, freckled complexions are more frequent among the Celtics. Genetically they will cluster really close.

Aelfgar
Sunday, April 8th, 2018, 09:46 AM
Celtic and Germanic cultures are quite similar due to the fact that they all originate from the Beaker Folk people and culture as recent studies show. Slight physical differences show that blond hair is a little more frequent among Germanics, while red hair, freckled complexions are more frequent among the Celtics. Genetically they will cluster really close.

Below are two GEDmatch 'Oracle' results for Danish people. For anyone who doesn't know, GEDmatch compares the fine scale DNA data of an individual to the average data of other populations and lists those populations in order of 'best fit' like finding how closely different shoes fit a certain foot. The lower the number, the better the fit. These calculators are not perfect but they give a pretty good idea:

Swedish 2.06
Norwegian 2.75
Danish 3.75
North_Dutch 3.85
North_German 4.11
Orkney_Islander 5.89
Irish 6.6
West_Scottish 7.32
Southeast_English 7.44
North_Swedish 8.13
Southwest_English 8.71
South_Dutch 10.49
West_German 10.99
East_German 11.65
Austrian 12.33
Southwest_Finnish 16.24
Hungarian 16.39
French 16.71
South_Polish 19.48
Croatian 21.14

Norwegian 3.15
North_Dutch 4
Danish 4.05
Swedish 4.86
Orkney_Islander 5.38
North_German 6.03
Irish 6.05
West_Scottish 6.21
Southeast_English 6.85
Southwest_English 7.94
North_Swedish 10.46
South_Dutch 11.31
West_German 12.11
East_German 14.46
Austrian 14.86
French 17.06
Southwest_Finnish 18.6
Hungarian 18.96
South_Polish 22.45
Croatian 24

Wulfram
Saturday, April 14th, 2018, 08:26 PM
For the record, the Romans could not tell the difference between Celts and Germanics. :D

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, April 14th, 2018, 10:29 PM
Germanic Caledonians? Germany part of Gaul? That is how it was.

Etain
Tuesday, April 17th, 2018, 01:14 AM
Germanics and Celts are the most similar people genetically and culturally. But there are distinct differences,such as in myth.

Teutonic gloom overspreads Teutonic Mythology. Odin and his Asa clan live ever under the shadow of Ragnarok, "The Dusk of the gods". This gloom hangs heavily as northern storm-clouds over early "Teutonic"literature. It haunts the Eddas and Sagas; it permeates Anglo-Saxon poetry. Dr. Clark Hall says of Beowulf, "There is undoubtedly less colour about the second part than the first, and more gloom. The habit of foreboding which is noticeable in Part I is so prominent in Part II as to give a general tone of fatalistic hopelessness to it. Sunshine and shadow no longer alternate shadow is over all." The same comment might be applied with equal force to the Nibelungenlied. Although "gloomy" and "Celtic" have become synonymous terms of late years, yet Celtic (Irish) Mythology and old Gaelic literature both in Scotland and in Ireland strike, in comparison with what is termed Teutonic, a brighter and more cheerful note. It may be that the gloom is aboriginal--pre-Celtic and pre-Teutonic--a shadow of primitive but persistent mental habits.

Comparisons may also be drawn between Teutonic and Greek Mythologies. But these will be found to be of slighter character. Those elements, common to both, which are not Asiatic may be of early Mediterranean origin, for as ancient cities lie below ancient cities) so do ancient mythologies rest upon the wrecks of others of still greater antiquity. As Jubainville has shown in Le Cycle Mythologique Irlandais et la Mythologie Celtique, Greek and Celtic are closely related and mainly of common origin. They are children of one mother; but Scandinavian Mythology cannot be regarded as other than a distant relation.
In all three Mythologies there is a central Nature-myth tragedy. In Greek it is the slaying of Night by Dawn. Hermes, surnamed Argeiphontes, in his character as Dawn-god, slays Argus, the many-eyed, who is Night, with a round stone, which is the Sun. In Celtic (Irish) Mythology the Dawn-god, Lugh, kills Balor of the Evil-eye, who is Night, with the same round sun-stone. The myth also applies to the slaying of Winter by Summer and of Evil by Good. The tragedy of Scandinavian Mythology, on the other hand, is the slaying of Day (or Summer) by Night (or Winter). Blind Hoder shoots Balder (in his Edda character as Summer Sun-god) with the wintry mistletoe-arrow. He is prompted by Loke, the Scandinavian Mephistopheles, who plots to hasten the downfall of the gods. Light is thus overcome by Darkness, Summer by Winter, and Good by Evil.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/tml/tml05.htm

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Tuesday, April 17th, 2018, 03:11 PM
Celtic stories are somewhat gruesome and macabre. I don't see that in Greco-Roman stories so much, but the Germanic story where Loki is constantly attacked by a bird trying to eat his liver would seem to fit with them, as does having the world made from the body of Ymir.

Aelfgar
Tuesday, April 17th, 2018, 10:51 PM
On average, the Irish have certain looks which are not so common in England. But any individual native of one country can easily pass in the other. The Scots and Welsh can go either way.

The Irish singer Enya is my idea of a classic Celt: https://mairedubhtx.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/enya-smile-one-hand1.jpg

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, April 18th, 2018, 03:51 AM
I've never found that phenotype in Ireland to be particularly Celtic. It seems Mediterranean. Here's my idea of native Irish, in Colm Meaney:

113448

See also Brendan Gleeson:

113449

SpearBrave
Wednesday, April 18th, 2018, 10:16 AM
I think if we are looking at modern Irish they have a lot of Germanic admixture from the Anglo/Saxons and Norse, so genetically they are going to be very similar.

Pure Wisdom
Thursday, April 19th, 2018, 12:49 AM
Both Celtic and Germanic People were described as extremley White, pale by the ancient Romans and Greeks. Keep in mind that blondism, blue eyes were also common among ancient Romans and Greeks. Many of the Roman emperor were blond, but it was not the norm or the average like among Germanics. Both the Celts and the Germanics lived in parts of Europe were they were rarely exposed to the sun. However with trained eyes you can see different between a blond Irish or a Scottish person and a typical German. For example these US-American men I would not mistake for a German. They have the typical look you find in the UK or Ireland.
113460



or this other White American man with a Scottish name- Brandon McMillan.

113461

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Sunday, May 20th, 2018, 01:32 AM
Dale Earnhardt looks as much Irish as he does German.