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Hamrammr
Wednesday, May 18th, 2011, 08:33 PM
In Germanic mythology, a dwarf (Old English dweorg, Old Norse dvergr, Old High German zwerc and gitwerc) is a being that dwells in mountains and in the earth, and is associated with wisdom, smithing, mining, and crafting. Dwarfs are also sometimes described as short and ugly, although some scholars have questioned whether this is a later development stemming from comical portrayals of the beings.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Germanic_mythology%29)

I have for a while thought about the possible link between Alpinism and Dwarves in ancient Mythology. I know Alpinism is the result of a process rather than being a distinct race in itself. But could it perhaps be possible that such a pure Alpinid community or communities have existed in history that it gave rise to the ancient tales of dwarves? I could not help but note the similarities between the purist forms of Alpinism and Dwarfism- both are short, stoutly built and have dark curly hair with rough features. I mean not to tread on any toes or to present this as a academic discussion, but I would be glad if members could give their opinions.

wolfyhati
Thursday, May 19th, 2011, 01:05 AM
well, dwarfs strickes me as alpine+dinaric influence, having stocky build, short stature but strong man features, a dinaric nose and maybe planoccipital.

Yodel
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 08:00 PM
Alpine race is one of "shortest" in Europe. But still not that short for being dwarf i think.

Average height of troops born in the mid-nineteenth century, by country or place.
Country Height
Australia 1.72 m (5 ft 7 3⁄4 in)[107]
England 1.72 m (5 ft 7 3⁄4 in)
U.S. 1.71 m (5 ft 7 1⁄4 in)
Norway 1.69 m (5 ft 6 1⁄2 in)
Ireland 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
Scotland 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
Sweden 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
Bohemia 1.67 m (5 ft 5 3⁄4 in)
Lower Austria 1.67 m (5 ft 5 3⁄4 in)
Moravia 1.66 m (5 ft 5 1⁄4 in)
France 1.65 m (5 ft 5 in)
Wales 1.65 m (5 ft 5 in)
Germany 1.64 m (5 ft 4 1⁄2 in)
Netherlands 1.64 m (5 ft 4 1⁄2 in)
Spain 1.62 m (5 ft 3 3⁄4 in)
Italy 1.61 m (5 ft 3 1⁄2 in)

Netherlands 181,0 5’11.3″ 16,318,199
Iceland 179,8 5’10.8″ 319,355
Norway 179,7 5’10.7″ 4,737,171
Sweden 179,3 5’10.6″ 8,986,400
Denmark 178,8 5’10.4″ 5,413,392
Finland 178,4 5’10.2″ 5,214,512
Czech Republic 178,3 5’10.2″ 10,246,178
Slovenia 178,1 5’10.1″ 2,007,711
Luxembourg 178,0 5’10.1″ 486,006
Croatia 177,6 5’9.9″ 4,496,869
Germany 177,4 5’9.8″ 82,424,609
Estonia 177,1 5’9.7″ 1,307,605
Austria 177,0 5’9.7″ 8,174,762
Belgium 176,6 5’9.5″ 10,348,276
Serbia 176,5 5’9.5″ 10,159,046
Switzerland 176,5 5’9.5″ 7,450,867
United States 176,4 5’9.4″ 293,027,571
Australia 176,3 5’9.4″ 19,913,144
Poland 176,0 5’9.3″ 38,626,349
Greece 175,7 5’9.2″ 10,647,529
New Zealand 175,5 5’9.1″ 3,993,817
United Kingdom 175,4 5’9.1″ 60,270,708
Hungary 175,3 5’9″ 10,106,017
Ukraine 175,0 5’8.9″ 47,732,079
Ireland 175,0 5’8.9″ 3,969,558
Russia 175,0 5’8.9″ 143,782,338
Israel 175,0 5’8.9″ 7,112,359
Lithuania 175,0 5’8.9″ 3,565,205
Canada 174,3 5’8.6″ 32,507,874
Lebanon 174,2 5’8.6″ 3,777,218
Turkey 174,1 5’8.5″ 68,893,918
France 174,1 5’8.5″ 60,424,213
Uzbekistan 173,4 5’8.3″ 26,410,416
Italy 173,2 5’8.2″ 58,057,477
Senegal 173,0 5’8.1″ 10,852,147
Jamaica 172,8 5’8″ 2,804,332
Mali 172,5 5’7.9″ 12,324,029
Spain 172,0 5’7.7″ 40,280,780
Romania 172,0 5’7.7″ 22,355,551
Azerbaijan 172,0 5’7.7″ 8,177,717
Uruguay 171,8 5’7.6″ 3,399,237
Argentina 171,3 5’7.4″ 39,144,753
South Korea 171,0 5’7.3″ 48,598,175
Syria 171,0 5’7.3″ 18,016,874
Morocco 170,7 5’7.2″ 32,209,101
Iran 170,6 5’7.2″ 67,503,205
Portugal 170,5 5’7.1″ 10,524,145
Cτte d’Ivoire 170,4 5’7.1″ 18,373,060
Egypt 170,3 5’7″ 76,117,421
Tunisia 170,3 5’7″ 9,974,722
Algeria 170,2 5’7″ 32,129,324
South Africa 170,0 5’6.9″ 42,718,530
Cameroon 170,0 5’6.9″ 16,063,678
Gambia 170,0 5’6.9″ 1,735,464
Ghana 169,8 5’6.9″ 23,382,848
Brazil 169,5 5’6.7″ 184,101,109
Colombia 169,5 5’6.7″ 42,310,775
Taiwan 169,3 5’6.7″ 22,920,946
Chile 169,2 5’6.6″ 15,823,957
Venezuela 169,0 5’6.5″ 23,542,649
Paraguay 169,0 5’6.5″ 6,191,368
Japan 168,6 5’6.4″ 127,333,002
Hong Kong 168,5 5’6.3″ 7,210,505
China 168,3 5’6.3″ 1,298,847,624
Mexico 167,5 5’5.9″ 104,959,594
Pakistan 167,0 5’5.7″ 159,196,336
Singapore 166,6 5’5.6″ 4,353,893
Thailand 166,4 5’5.5″ 64,865,523
Mongolia 166,4 5’5.5″ 2,751,314
Malaysia 166,0 5’5.4″ 23,522,482
Sri Lanka 166,0 5’5.4″ 20,064,776
Malawi 166,0 5’5.4″ 13,931,831
Bahrain 165,6 5’5.2″ 718,306
Iraq 165,4 5’5.1″ 25,374,691
Nigeria 165,0 5’5″ 138,283,240
Peru 164,3 5’4.7″ 27,544,305
North Korea 163,8 5’4.5″ 22,697,553
India 162,3 5’3.9″ 1,065,070,607
Vietnam 162,1 5’3.8″ 82,689,518
Philippines 162,0 5’3.8″ 86,241,697
Indonesia 161,5 5’3.6″ 238,452,952
Cambodia 160,3 5’3.1″ 13,363,421

I think that average Alpinids is 10cm shorter then average Nordics

renownedwolf
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 08:33 PM
I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?

Juthunge
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 08:42 PM
I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?

I don't think Alpinid is common anywhere on the British Isles, at least nowadays. 5'5" would be short even for today's Alpinids though.

The short stature in Wales probably comes rather from the Mediterranean race which is supposed to be common there. Are these people slender, long-faced and rather dark?

Sigyn
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 08:44 PM
I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?
No, not really. As one might guess, the Alpine racial type is most common in Central Europe. A short, dark Welsh person is more likely to be an Atlanto-Mediterranean.

renownedwolf
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 08:58 PM
That must be it then, they do look like de-pigmented Spaniards alot of the time. I find the same with the Irish too. Must be the Iberian Celt look.

Mind you there are quite alot of very large males here 6'+ who share the exact same facial structures and colouring.

Alfadur
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 09:47 PM
Must be the Iberian Celt look.
"Iberian Celt" is a cultural term and shouldn't be used in any racial sense. The word you are looking for would probably be "Atlantid", a racial type that is native to the western extremes of Europe.

A short, slender, black-haired Welshman is most likely an Atlanto-Mediterranean, as has been said before. This type is spread around Southwestern Europe, and also exists in Ireland. The early English racialists, when studying Irish people, generally classified them into two groups; the redheads and blondes with coarse features (Brόnn), and the darker ones with slender features (Atlanto-Med). The latter were the source of the "Black Irish" legend, which connected them to Iberia.

(The Irish are not the only ones who have this story. I personally know a Norwegian woman with smooth dark hair, almost black. She said her family has retained that pale-skinned, raven-haired look over many generations, and they have an old family legend that they descend from a Spanish sea captain who was shipwrecked one the Norwegian coast. It's probably not true, but it just goes to show how widespread that legend is among North Europeans with darker hair.)

Juthunge
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 10:12 PM
A short, slender, black-haired Welshman is most likely an Atlanto-Mediterranean, as has been said before. This type is spread around Southwestern Europe, and also exists in Ireland. The early English racialists, when studying Irish people, generally classified them into two groups; the redheads and blondes with coarse features (Brόnn), and the darker ones with slender features (Atlanto-Med).
Well, if the individual in question is short it's more likely a member of the (small) Mediterranean race, since Atlanto-Mediteranids are supposed to be tall and robust.

I also don't think the terms Brόnn or Atlanto-Mediteranid existed back then and later most of the Irish were classified as either Brόnn or Keltic Nordid, rather than AM.

Alfadur
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 10:34 PM
Well, if the individual in question is short it's more likely a member of the (small) Mediterranean race, since Atlanto-Mediteranids are supposed to be tall and robust.
Atlanto-Mediterraneans come in all sizes. The differences between "Atlanto-Med" and "East-Med" have more to do with facial features than with height. (Although the latter is often shorter and slimmer).


I also don't think the terms Brόnn or Atlanto-Mediteranid existed back then and later most of the Irish were classified as either Brόnn or Keltic Nordid, rather than AM.
I don't think any of the above terms existed back then, but that is beside the point I was making. This was at the dawn of anthropology, remember. I merely used the terms "Brόnn" and "Atlanto-Med" as a shorthand for the two racial categories that Irish people were divided into, so the reader would get a visual cue.

Juthunge
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 10:43 PM
Atlanto-Mediterraneans come in all sizes. The distinction between "Atlanto-Med" and "East-Med" has more to do with facial features than height.
Which anthropologist are you following in this regard?
Atlanto-Mediterranid isn't the only western counterpart of the Mediterranids in the East.
Atlanto-Mediterranid as a type was certainly described as a tall, robust and marginally lighter relative of the small Mediterranid race, both being principally found in the West to Southwest of Europe.


I don't think any of the above terms existed back then, but that is beside the point I was making. This was at the dawn of anthropology, remember. I merely used the terms "Brόnn" and "Atlanto-Med" as a shorthand for the two racial categories that Irish people were divided into, so the reader would get a visual cue.That doesn't really make sense to me though as I know of no anthropologist who considered a type, which is dark in skin and hair colour and shares the morphological features of Atlanto-Mediterranids, to be a primary element among the Irish.
Racial types/terms shouldn't be subjected to change of their attributes in my opinion as it will only lead to major confusion.

Granraude
Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012, 10:55 PM
(The Irish are not the only ones who have this story. I personally know a Norwegian woman with smooth dark hair, almost black. She said her family has retained that pale-skinned, raven-haired look over many generations, and they have an old family legend that they descend from a Spanish sea captain who was shipwrecked one the Norwegian coast. It's probably not true, but it just goes to show how widespread that legend is among North Europeans with darker hair.)

That legend is indeed widespread. My family has an Italian sailor instead of Spanish though :P

And I personally know several who "may have" an Iberian or Italian ancestor.