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+Suomut+
Tuesday, April 5th, 2011, 10:15 PM
Being stimulated by this thread, http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=140032&page=4 , and with the help of Sybren (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=30881) I've surfed upon this great YT channel: OmropFryslan (http://www.youtube.com/user/OmropFryslan) for any of you who might/may be interested in videos about/on Fryslân IN Frysk/Frisian. :thumbup For example, this is a good one, I like it: http://www.youtube.com/user/OmropFryslan#p/u/4/2GwJWgSiRTk .

Example:
2GwJWgSiRTk
I welcome any discussions of said channel/site, videos, or Frysk/Frisian in general. :)

Sybren
Tuesday, April 5th, 2011, 10:32 PM
Dahmke,

I should tell you in that movie the only one that speaks Frisian is Harmen Cnossen. The others speak Dutch ;)

Omrop Fryslân is the major tv channel here in Fryslân.

+Suomut+
Tuesday, April 5th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Dahmke, I should tell you in that movie the only one that speaks Frisian is Harmen Cnossen. The others speak Dutch ;) Omrop Fryslân is the major tv channel here in Fryslân.Hey man, I'm glad you've replied, because you can keep me straight on who's speaking which!, lol. ;) :D The overall commentators in each video on the channel are speaking in Frysk, though, correct?

Sybren
Wednesday, April 6th, 2011, 01:55 PM
Hey man, I'm glad you've replied, because you can keep me straight on who's speaking which!, lol. ;) :D The overall commentators in each video on the channel are speaking in Frysk, though, correct?
I have found my purpose on this forum, telling people what is Dutch and what is Frisian! :P

Just kidding ;)

Yes, the commentators all speak Frisian, so you can count on that.

Dutch and Frisian differ quite a lot. There are some easy methods to distinguish Frisian from Dutch:

- Frisian is a language comparable to English. Dutch leans more to German. A good example for this is the word cheese, which in Frisian is 'tsiis'. The words are almost pronounced exactly the same, apart from the beginning. The Dutch word for cheese is 'kaas', it is more leaning to the German word for cheese 'käse'.
- Frisian has a much greater use of long vowels. For example the popular made expression 'oan't moarn' (until tomorrow). The 'oa' in both words is pronounced as the 'o' in the English word 'born'. These types of sounds are everywhere in Frisian, not in Dutch.
- Frisian generally has a much softer, less harsh appearance than Dutch. For example the Frisian word 'goed', meaning 'good'. It is spelled exactly the same as in Dutch, but the first letter 'g' in Frisian is pronounced as it is in English. In Dutch, the 'g' is pronounced as the sound you're making at the start of gurgling water in your mouth after brushing your teeth :P (And again, the 'oe' are long vowels in Frisian, short in Dutch. The Frisian 'oe' is pronounced as the 'oo' in the English word 'Fool'. The Dutch 'oe' as the 'ou' in 'you'. So Frisian long versus Dutch short.)


I might be wrong on some details though, i am not an expert on it. Anlef ís, maybe he can see if all i said is right or not ;) But in general, above are some simple good ways to differentiate the two languages from eachother.

+Suomut+
Thursday, April 7th, 2011, 12:24 AM
I have found my purpose on this forum, telling people what is Dutch and what is Frisian! :P Just kidding ;) Hey, the idiotic masses need educating. :wsg

Dutch and Frisian differ quite a lot.Wow, I had no idea of this until now.

- Frisian is a language comparable to English. Dutch leans more to German. A good example for this is the word cheese, which in Frisian is 'tsiis'. The words are almost pronounced exactly the same, apart from the beginning. The Dutch word for cheese is 'kaas', it is more leaning to the German word for cheese 'käse'.I've long thought of Frysk, Nederlands, and Plattdüütsch as, essentially, "bridges" between English and Hochdeutsch, because there are significant linguistic gulfs (for several reasons) between the latter 2 (too much to write on all of that). 'Cheese' and 'tsiis' surely sound similar...same deal with 'yn' and 'in'...it's just the spellings in writing that would be a little confusing for both Frisians and Englishmen alike. You've certainly taught me a lesson with your first sentence...very insightful for me. :thumbup

- Frisian generally has a much softer, less harsh appearance than Dutch. For example the Frisian word 'goed', meaning 'good'. It is spelled exactly the same as in Dutch, but the first letter 'g' in Frisian is pronounced as it is in English. In Dutch, the 'g' is pronounced as the sound you're making at the start of gurgling water in your mouth after brushing your teeth :P (And again, the 'oe' are long vowels in Frisian, short in Dutch. The Frisian 'oe' is pronounced as the 'oo' in the English word 'Fool'. The Dutch 'oe' as the 'ou' in 'you'. So Frisian long versus Dutch short.)Wow, I wouldn't have guessed any difference between Frysk and Nederlands 'goed,' I'd love to see an Englishman try to pronounce the later (difficult). ;)

F.y.i, Sybren, I have other replies forthcoming on the 'Frisian-Forum?' thread either therein or in some fresh thread stemming from that. :)

Sybren
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Now that i think of the gurgling water sound as an explanation for the sound of the letter 'G' in for example the word 'goed', that isn't really correct, only partly.

More accurate is the sound someone makes before spitting... The sound one makes when loosening some spit in your throat :| Not to be offensive to my fellow Dutchman in any way :( I cannot think of a better example of explaining this...

+Suomut+
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 01:02 PM
Record it or record a Dutchman/woman doing it, and then post the file in here, hehe. :D ;) I'd love to hear it, really, you've piqued my interest. :)

Sybren
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 01:21 PM
I don't have any recording equipment here, but you can hear it in the movie you posted in the opening post in for example the word 'geen' (none).

Skip to exactly 1:23 in the movie and you'll hear the Dutch sound for the letter 'g' in the word 'geen' (there are exceptions for this letter, f.e. when 'g' isn't the first letter of a word). The Frisian 'g' sound is not any different from English. The Frisian word for none is 'gjin'.

+Suomut+
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 02:31 PM
Ahhh, I heard it! :thumbup Wow man, that IS! a BIG! difference between Nederlands and Frysk. :-O There is nothing like that sound in English, nothing...very alien to Eng. Well I suppose that that sound is something that came down into Nederlands from Frankish and not from Old Frisian or Old (continental) Saxon...surely not something the old Angles would say, I doubt.

Sybren
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 03:29 PM
Actually, i realised Frisians use that same sound too...

Not at the beginning of words, but rather in the middle/at the end. For example:

'foarsichtich' (careful)

The 'ch' letter combinations are pronounced with the "pre-spitting" :P sound. But softer and less pronounced/harsh as in Dutch.

I don't know if the sound is native to the Frisian language.

Anlef?

;)

Anlef
Friday, April 8th, 2011, 10:29 PM
Sybren,

That 'hard', fricative /g/ in the middle of words is actually inherited from Proto-Germanic. All the old Germanic languages, Old Norse and Old English included, once had it. An Anglo-Saxon, for example, would have pronounced næht 'night' the same way a modern Dutchman pronounces nacht 'night' (except for the vowel of course).

And according to Ringe (http://www.amazon.com/Linguistic-History-English-Proto-Indo-European-Proto-Germanic/dp/0199552290/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302297848&sr=8-1) there's a good chance that in Proto-Germanic the /g/ was also pronounced that way when at the front of a word. So that typical Dutch /g/ that everybody loves (:D) might be the real Germanic deal.

Something to think about.

+Suomut+
Saturday, April 9th, 2011, 05:35 AM
That 'hard', fricative /g/ in the middle of words is actually inherited from Proto-Germanic. All the old Germanic languages, Old Norse and Old English included, once had it. An Anglo-Saxon, for example, would have pronounced næht 'night' the same way a modern Dutchman pronounces nacht 'night' (except for the vowel of course).Where did you get all of this from? :) ...references please if you can cite them. I want to find out whomever maintains all of this so that I can go argue with them, lol. ;) :D

Anlef
Saturday, April 9th, 2011, 12:53 PM
From A Guide to Old English (http://books.google.nl/books?id=h0RSfnHNdKUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22a+guide+to+old+english%22&hl=nl&ei=2EagTeGCOtDsOaC18DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) (pp. 15-6):


At the beginning of a word (‘initially’) before a vowel, h is pronounced as in MnE ‘hound’. Otherwise it is like German ch in ich [ç] or ach [x], according to the front or back quality of the neighbouring vowel. It can be pronounced like ch in Scots loch.
&

After or between back vowels, g is pronounced as [ɣ], like the g sometimes heard in dialectal German sagen.

Both the [x] (voiceless velar fricative) and the [ɣ] (voiced velar fricative) are the guttural sounds typical to the standard Dutch of the Netherlands – as opposed to that of Flanders. Etymologically and phonologically speaking these two consonants are closely related. In fact, they are almost indistinguishable to most people.

Try to spot the difference for yourself:

gaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media:Nl-gaan.ogg) [ɣaːn] 'to go'
acht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media:Nl-acht_(North).ogg) [ɑxt] 'eight'

But as you can see by the quotes above, these guttural sounds were typical to Old English as well. Although Modern Dutch (of the Netherlands) has them in higher frequency.

+Suomut+
Saturday, April 9th, 2011, 02:07 PM
Thanks a lot for that resource, I've added it to my bookmarks for sure. :thumbup

Generally, I'm a skeptic when it comes to attempts to 'resurrect' speech which hasn't been spoken for century upon century, esp. super old speech like Ang.-Sax., et al. So, I take such attempts with a grain of salt. I'm more lenient when it comes to languages like Latin (as but one example), which have at least been passed down by mouth from generation to generation and priest by priest (i. e., by scholars) due to liturgical use, etc. Very little if any spoken change occurs in all that, I suppose. But you know, there was no group of persons in England, for example, who kept A.-S. running/going/speaking from the days of that tongue until now...unlike Eng. churchmen did with Latin for church use. 500 years from now (if the human species is still around, that is) folks then will know how we speak today, because they'll presumably have audio recordings of how we sound in our era. I'd never discourage someone from learning a language like A.-S. or others, and there's at least 1 school in England that does it...not sure where it is, though...but I would say to anyone doing it that that what they're speaking is to one degree or % or another: speculation, albeit learned/scholarly speculation.

...*cheers* & happy Saturday, Anlef. :)