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View Full Version : Alpinids and Borrebies



Siegfried
Sunday, June 27th, 2004, 04:40 PM
I'm experiencing difficulties distinguishing these two types from one another, probably because of my limited anthropological knowledge. Could some of you please help me out, and perhaps provide some pictures to outline the basic differences between the two types? I'd greatly appreciate it.

Phill
Monday, June 28th, 2004, 08:57 PM
To my limited knowledge... Borreby is very tall and depigmented.

I don't know too much about Alpines, all i really do know is that they can be kind of darker skinned (like a tan, for example) and are generally medium build/stature... And i'm not even sure if those are 100% right, so i'm sorry i can't be too much help. :(

nordic_canadian_male
Tuesday, June 29th, 2004, 02:19 AM
Borreby:
square face
taller
long arms
light pigmentation
heavier musculature

Alpine:
round face
moderate stature
short arms
darker
more lightly built

These are the easiest diffrences to perceive.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, June 29th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Borreby has a "square head", is larger and more de-pigmented. Alpines are shorter and less angular in the head. Some say Alpines are reduced Borrebys.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, June 29th, 2004, 09:32 AM
In its most primitive form, the Neolithic Alpine surprises by having the lowest basion-bregmatic height of the entire West European Neolithic, relatively broad skull comparable to the Dinaroid Beaker folk of the Rhineland(with its infusion of scarse Borreby elements) but in lenght exceeding every Beaker group, the glabella is prominent and the forehead receding, Houzé dared even to regard them as a Neanderthal survival in the Mosan region of present-day Belgium and spoke of a Spy-La Naulette race.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, June 29th, 2004, 11:14 AM
Borreby:
square face
taller
long arms
light pigmentation
heavier musculature

Alpine:
round face
moderate stature
short arms
darker
more lightly built

These are the easiest diffrences to perceive.

Right, but the main criterion is head size. Borrebies have a larger head even if the Alpine and the Borreby are the same height.

The difference is similar to the Mediterranean compared to the Nordic. Which is strange to me that some people want to call everything Alpinoid, but then have a dozen different Nordic types.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, June 30th, 2004, 09:22 AM
The Borreby skull was short headed. What some nowadays call Borreby in Northern Europe is usually sub-brachycephalic while Alpinid should be clearly brachycephalic. Borreby is as you said more depigmented, taller, and bigger in all dimensions. Nyessen included Nordid up to 82 (80 on crania) of the living. There are different ideas about the origin of Borreby but to me the Borreby in Denmark, NW Germany and N Netherlands, is basically Nordid. It is obviously not a Corded-Danubian type but Nordid is also a convention and in the minds of most commoners whom I know Borreby is Nordid. Maybe extreme Borreby look quite un-Nordid but at least Nordid altered by Borreby which is common in Northern Netherlands and maybe elsewhere in the Low countries is considered Nordid.

To illustrate my point I will attach Rosita Runegrund, a Swedish woman. I'm pretty sure that no Swede would consider her anything but Nordid. Compare her with Audrey Tautou, an Alpinid,
http://www.intradenver.net/newsimages/IntraDenver/Audrey%20Tautou.jpg http://www.askmen.com/women/actress_200/233_audrey_tautou.html

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, July 3rd, 2004, 06:26 PM
Borreby has a "square head", is larger and more de-pigmented. Alpines are shorter and less angular in the head. Some say Alpines are reduced Borrebys.

The square headed Borreby can be compared to a more robust version of the Osteuropid. In the Borreby, and in the true Osteuropids, the brachycephalic element is contributed by the Alpine lineage. (An Osteuropid-like type appared in the Danube region later after hybridisation with Neomongoloids, who are also brachycephalic.)

The Nordic contribution into the Borreby type would have been from a robust type related to Nordics, explaining the differences we see between the Borreby and the Osteuropid types.

Gareth
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 01:51 AM
Are these good examples of Borreby facial traits?
http://www.barnallergiaret.nu/pressrum/bildbank/img/hogupplost/aaf00061.jpg
(Sweden)
http://members.chello.at/h3llbring0r/mediamarkt//media_wyprzedaz094.jpg
(Poland)
http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2002/08/28330.jpg
(Germany)


The square headed Borreby can be compared to a more robust version of the Osteuropid. In the Borreby, and in the true Osteuropids, the brachycephalic element is contributed by the Alpine lineage. (An Osteuropid-like type appared in the Danube region later after hybridisation with Neomongoloids, who are also brachycephalic.)Why are they more often long-headed then like the Brünns, while the Alpines, from whom they descended in your opinion, are not? Many speak of seperated Cro-Magnon lineage and afterward brachycephalization in this context. Also, I don't see that so labeled 'UPs' descend from Neo-Mongoloids (= Northern Mongoloids ). That would mean all Non-Neolithics are post-Mongoloids.

What are these people from Yemen?
http://img2.imgspot.com/u/04/185/01/yemen.jpg
Recent relationship of South Germans and French ?

- - -
It's exaggeration calling the Alpines/Subnordics of today round-headed. Their heads' shapes are oval.

Square-headed pigmented South German:
http://www.ystart.net/upload/20040616/1087359766.jpg

Round-headed light North German:
http://www.ystart.net/upload/20040616/1087351074.jpg

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 02:44 AM
Many speak of seperated Cro-Magnon lineage and afterward brachycephalization in this context.

I think the brachycephalisation is from an Alpine element, mixing with such a robust type, rather than independent in the Borreby type.


Also, I don't see that so labeled 'UPs' descend from Neo-Mongoloids (= Northern Mongoloids ). That would mean all Non-Neolithics are post-Mongoloids.

Actually the Neomongoloids only appear in the Neolithic themselves, but in Hungary the appearence of an Osteuropid-like type occured after the arrival of Neomongoloids among Nordics. I mentioned this to show how brachycephalic admixture can produce an Osteuropid-like type from a Nordic population.

Glenlivet
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 11:56 PM
The racial composition of Sweden and Germany is more similar than either are to Poland. The German lady on the left could be a Phalian.

I see an East Baltid woman on the left in the Polish crowd. In the same picture the man in the middle with the left part of his shown in the picture resemble Lech Walesa.



Are these good examples of Borreby facial traits?
http://www.barnallergiaret.nu/pressrum/bildbank/img/hogupplost/aaf00061.jpg
(Sweden)
http://members.chello.at/h3llbring0r/mediamarkt//media_wyprzedaz094.jpg
(Poland)
http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2002/08/28330.jpg
(Germany)

Gareth
Sunday, July 11th, 2004, 11:21 PM
In the attached .zip file is a woman showing her kind smile. I think she's Borreby, but I'm not sure enough to leave Brünn aside (she is actually English).

Sorry for the swf/flash-format, you can open it with the same devices as in the normal case using your browser.

White Preservationist
Tuesday, July 13th, 2004, 06:26 AM
The Borreby variety does not exist in the classification schemes of most anthropologists. I am not sure what I am supposed to think of it. But I will say that I think Denmark has higher cephalic index than the Scandinavian peninsula simply because of greater alpine admixture.

Fred
Tuesday, July 13th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Square-headed pigmented South German:

Amazing how much she looks like my mother (walloon).

cruhmann
Sunday, July 18th, 2004, 11:28 PM
Think about northern Germany and the CI there. It averages from about 79.5 in the Oldenburg area and some areas of Westfalen to 82-83 in northeast Germany. Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein generally fall between these. You have a CI of 83.6 on Fehmarn Islands. Most of Denmark is aproximately 81-82. Individuals in these areas can have CIs of 85 and even over 90 and yet still be very large-headed, light-complexioned and tall. There is no Alpine mixture here. And how, then, do we get Phalian being a cross between Nordic (CI in mid-70s) and a dolicho-mesocephalic broad-faced Cro-Magnon type? Would that not produce a type which is still dolicho/mesocephalic? And the Bruenn is both long- and broad-faced on its original form so a cross between Nordic and Bruenn would not produce Phalian. Phalian, to me, is primarily Nordic + Borreby, with slight mix of Bruenn, Atlanto-Meditteranean, Corded, Bell-Beaker and/or other elements in different places.

SouthernBoy
Monday, July 19th, 2004, 02:35 AM
I must admit that I am no expert on Anthropology, but I am quite confused how everyone lately has been completely denying the existence on the Borreby subtype. Everyone is apparently trying to pin down the high C.I. of some people to be Alpinid influenenced. From what I understand the Borreby is much older than any Alpinid. Please, show me some evidence to prove that the Borreby subtype DOESN'T EXIST.

Gareth
Friday, September 17th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Look at the composition I created for a comparison (left: Alpines; right: Borrebies).

I tried to use individuals which are the least mixed with other subtypes. Besides that it's impossible to make it a 100% accurate, so maybe I left an important aspect out.

Tifilis
Friday, September 17th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Look at the composition I created for a comparison (left: Alpines; right: Borrebies).

I tried to use individuals which are the least mixed with other subtypes. Besides that it's impossible to make it a 100% accurate, so maybe I left an important aspect out.

Hehe, would you really say that Circassian president Semenov(top left) is a Alpine? :) and Swedish premier Göran Persson as well?

Gareth
Friday, September 17th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Better state what is not Alpine about Semenov in your idea. My thought is that Alpines get squarer faced the more you go southeast, without having overly Dinaric traits necessarily. That could derive from it's mixture of course, combined with Balkan's Borreby-like types.

The Swedish premier is not listed as Alpine, but as Borreby... since his photo is on the right half of the picture (as I said, left: Alpines; right: Borrebies).

Tifilis
Friday, September 17th, 2004, 11:32 PM
Yes, I think your'e right about Semenov. Just that he has something more.. like slight Gorid/Mtebid or something(the nose).

Gareth
Saturday, September 18th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Yes, his nose is not Alpine. Despite of most Alpines no longer have Alpine noses, but high-rooted/stronger ones.

I also took the guy below Semenov because his nose looks Danubian. :) Of course there are better looking Alpines. In most of those you can see non-Alpinoid admixture; A tiny few just are sweet and/or depigmented alone. :)

btw. what is your image of the Gorid type? Can you provide a person for example?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, September 18th, 2004, 05:45 AM
Think about northern Germany and the CI there. It averages from about 79.5 in the Oldenburg area and some areas of Westfalen to 82-83 in northeast Germany. Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein generally fall between these. You have a CI of 83.6 on Fehmarn Islands. Most of Denmark is aproximately 81-82. Individuals in these areas can have CIs of 85 and even over 90 and yet still be very large-headed, light-complexioned and tall. There is no Alpine mixture here. And how, then, do we get Phalian being a cross between Nordic (CI in mid-70s) and a dolicho-mesocephalic broad-faced Cro-Magnon type? Would that not produce a type which is still dolicho/mesocephalic? And the Bruenn is both long- and broad-faced on its original form so a cross between Nordic and Bruenn would not produce Phalian. Phalian, to me, is primarily Nordic + Borreby, with slight mix of Bruenn, Atlanto-Meditteranean, Corded, Bell-Beaker and/or other elements in different places.

It seems to me obvious that Borrebys and Nordics have mixed in Northern Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and to some extent in Iceland. One possible reason for a high CI could be dominance of roundheadedness. This would not be a simple one to one relationship but probably the result of many genes controlling head shape.

Sigurdr
Tuesday, June 14th, 2005, 06:36 AM
In general the borreby race is: meso-brachicephalic,head wide with high vault(turriform) and slightly sloping forehead,strong browridges,low and broad face,short and pointed chin (not ever),right or concave nose,face roundness(not ever),long arms and enough short legs,broad shoulders,thick set heavy bones,muscular medium-high talness.Hair blond or brown,rare dark.Eyes blue or grey,body hair developed.The alpinids are:exclusively brachicephalics,head usually wide but not so big as the borreby,low vaulted(platicephal),vertical forehead,browridges not so strong,face form similar to the borrebies,usually concave nose(but not ever),long arms and often short legs,broad shoulders,stocky body complexion but not so robust like the borrebies,bones not so heavy like the borrebies,medium high.Hair brown,but not rare blond or dark colours,eyes usually grey or hazel,freeckling not rare,body hair enough developed.:)

VonPletz
Wednesday, November 2nd, 2005, 04:50 AM
Where do i find good examples of Borrebies?

Waarnemer
Wednesday, November 2nd, 2005, 11:35 AM
Where do i find good examples of Borrebies?

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/6853/borrebysurvivorsinthenorthplat.jpg

Horagalles
Wednesday, November 2nd, 2005, 11:49 AM
Borreby has a "square head", is larger and more de-pigmented. Alpines are shorter and less angular in the head. Some say Alpines are reduced Borrebys.In SA "square head" is a nickname for Germans:D . I might add that Alpines seem to have a tendency to obesety.

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:15 PM
Hi,

I think these are some good examples of Borrebies:

First up, J. Kenneth Campbell (USA)

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Stuart Murdoch (Scotland)

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Sir Ian Blair (England)

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Joey Lauren Adams (USA)

Glenlivet
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:39 PM
I think he look more Nordid and possibly somewhat Atlanto-Mediterranid.

Sir Ian Blair come closer.




First up, J. Kenneth Campbell (USA)

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 06:47 PM
Some assorted Borrebies.

dehook
Sunday, November 27th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Lastly, two generalized Borrebies:

Josh Hartnett (USA: Irish/Swedish descent) and Brian Harvey (England). Both seem to have an Atlantomediterranid influence, but they're still predominantly Borreby. Hope that helps.

Skerritt
Friday, January 6th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Ray Mears is a classic Borreby.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=48631&stc=1&d=1136558289

dehook
Monday, January 9th, 2006, 01:19 AM
Ray Mears is a classic Borreby.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=48631&stc=1&d=1136558289
He's the best example I've come across so far. ;)

By the way, after I posted some of my examples, Glenlivet mentioned that "Sir Ian Blair come closer". I assume what he means is that he is predominantly Borreby, but not fully. Looking at his photos again, I think Sir Ian Blair might have an Anglo-Saxon influence. What do you think? This would be better suited to "Racial Classifications", but I'm too lazy to start a thread there.

Skerritt
Tuesday, January 10th, 2006, 10:16 PM
More Ray Mears :D

http://www.rainforestconcern.org/secure/UploadedImages/big_Ray%20Close%20Up.jpghttp://www.wwf.org.uk/picturelibrary/jpeg150/ra/raymears.jpg

http://www.planetlara.com/images/chris_and_ray.jpg

Ealhswiğ
Thursday, July 6th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Alpinid

The Skin
Pigmentation is moderate to light but darkens as one moves East,
Skin can sometimes be freckled,

The Hair
Pigmentation ranges from blond to brunet, but is usually intermediate. Quite often with undertones of rufosity.

The Eyes
Eyes can range from blue and grey to green and brown. Does anyone have examples of lighter-eyed/haired/complexioned, perhaps even freckled, Alpinids?

I've come across a very limited selection of Alpinid photos, most of which are of fairly dark-looking (to my eyes at least) individuals.

Pro-Alpine
Friday, July 7th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Why are Borrebies considered "Nordalpinid", is there such a link between Borrebies and Alpinids?

fareast
Saturday, July 8th, 2006, 06:47 AM
alpinid may be the mixture of cromagnid(borreby or bruenn) and mediteranid.

fareast
Saturday, July 8th, 2006, 06:50 AM
Ray Mears is a classic Borreby.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=48631&stc=1&d=1136558289

if mears is borreby,i would not distinct borreby from faelid.

Gretel die Katze
Friday, December 9th, 2011, 05:48 AM
The Borreby variety does not exist in the classification schemes of most anthropologists. I am not sure what I am supposed to think of it. But I will say that I think Denmark has higher cephalic index than the Scandinavian peninsula simply because of greater alpine admixture.

Does this mean that Borrebies are actually a form of Alpinids?

Catterick
Saturday, April 16th, 2016, 09:47 PM
Does this mean that Borrebies are actually a form of Alpinids?

Yes but they are mixed with Nordics, which explains the dinaricisation they often display in the face. Alpinids are just reduced from Borrebies (aka North Alpines, UP Alpines).