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View Full Version : Catholic Theologians Call for End to Celibacy for Priests



Nachtengel
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 01:57 AM
More than 140 Catholic theologians from Germany, Switzerland and Austria called Friday for an end to celibacy as part of sweeping reforms in the wake of a sex scandal that rocked the Church.

In a letter published in the SŁddeutsche Zeitung daily, the group said the Catholic Church in Germany had suffered an "unprecedented crisis" last year and that "2011 must be a year of departure for the Church."

"The Church needs married priests and women in the ministry," the group wrote.

They also called for acceptance of same-sex partnerships and divorce, in a radical departure from current Catholic thought.

"The high value that the Church places on marriage and a celibate form of life should not be called into question.

"But this does not demand that we exclude people who live responsibly with love, fidelity and mutual respect in a same-sex partnership or as re-married divorcees," the group wrote.

More: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110204-32883.html

Ardito
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 06:39 AM
Thankyou for the link.

I am in favour of married priests, but not of open theological acceptance of homosexual couples.

feisty goddess
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 07:00 AM
Their idea of celibacy for all priests really is ridiculous, glad they're deciding to reform. But the same-sex thing really is disgusting. Who is going to go to mass at a church with a gay priest? Seriously? I sure AS HECK wouldn't.

Ardito
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Their idea of celibacy for all priests really is ridiculous, glad they're deciding to reform. But the same-sex thing really is disgusting. Who is going to go to mass at a church with a gay priest? Seriously? I sure AS HECK wouldn't.

Priestly celibacy is one thing the Orthodox Church gets right; a man who is a priest cannot marry, but a married man may become a priest. The Catholic Church should change its ways to match.

I am, however, very much concerned by where these ideas are coming from. They're looking to approve homosexuality, too, which means the whole thing is a symptom of liberalism, rather than a genuine, honest theological conclusion.

feisty goddess
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 07:45 AM
Priestly celibacy is one thing the Orthodox Church gets right; a man who is a priest cannot marry, but a married man may become a priest. The Catholic Church should change its ways to match.

I am, however, very much concerned by where these ideas are coming from. They're looking to approve homosexuality, too, which means the whole thing is a symptom of liberalism, rather than a genuine, honest theological conclusion.

That's the case with everything these days I'm afraid. Liberalism is a sick plague that works its way into every corner of the earth.

Lothringen
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 02:02 PM
Celibacy:

Anglican church allows their priest to marry.
Early roman catholic priest had the right to.
In other religion of the Book (Muslim, Jewish) they have.

I think the end of celibacy will certainly give some new problem (divorce, contraception, responsability of children acts...) but will solve a lot (love in sin, illegitim children,...). Moreover one cause of celibacy was that the medieval society was ready to pay for THE priest of the village but not for the priest, his wife and 5 to 6 children while the other children of the village were suffering hunger. Now with low birth rate in occidental country, that would not be a problem but what about the 3rd-world...

Women priests.

Among Celts, there was a minority of female druids.
Among Germans, rune divination was merely a women job.
Anglican church has few female priest and the queens (Elisabeth I & II, Victoria) were over the Archbishop of Canterbury. I doubt the victorian era was an era of depravation. So if the 60 years-old Mother Superior starts doing celebration as a test why not.

gay/lesbian weeding

Why not gay & lesbian priests ? NO
Sorry this will be too many social & cultural changes so homosexual catholism will not be catholism any more. There are plenty of self proclaimed christian religions which already authorize that so, if you are homosexual, live your faith your way but don't change the church of the others.

∆meric
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Celibacy is a matter of Church policy, not a theoligical matter. The Pope has always been allowed to grant dispensations allowing priests to marry or married men to become priests. There are currently former Anglican/Episcopal priests who have been received into the Roman Church. I think the main issue is financial, that married priests would require greater compensation. But Protestant Churches, with typically smaller congregations then the normal Catholic parish (megachurches being the exception) can handle the financial burden of a married pastor, Cathlolic parishes can adjust.

In the past - the Renaissance ERa for example - cleibacy was not inforced, even if marriage was forbidden. Several Popes had illegitimate children.


"The Church needs married priests and women in the ministry," the group wrote.

They also called for acceptance of same-sex partnerships and divorce, in a radical departure from current Catholic thought.

Female clergy is a bad idea, it leads to other apostate policies. Every Protestant Church that has allowed female clergy has accepted gay clergy & same-sex marrige or there is a homophilic movement within that church that is in the process of destroying it.

velvet
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 03:15 PM
Who is going to go to mass at a church with a gay priest? Seriously? I sure AS HECK wouldn't.

ROFL :D

Then you may rather look for a new religion. Even the prostestant (marriage and sex allowed) priest of my school time was GAY :D

And why is it that noone wants to realise that specially catholic priests become priests in the first place to escape the shame of being gay and hide behind the celibacy thingy??? It's not so difficult people, really.

Ardito
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Female clergy is a bad idea, it leads to other apostate policies. Every Protestant Church that has allowed female clergy has accepted gay clergy & same-sex marrige or there is a homophilic movement within that church that is in the process of destroying it.

Naturally. The idea of female clergy only ever flows from liberalism. It wouldn't occur to someone who had no political agenda, and these are the same people who push for homosexual rights.


And why is it that noone wants to realise that specially catholic priests become priests in the first place to escape the shame of being gay and hide behind the celibacy thingy??? It's not so difficult people, really.

This may have been the case in the past, but there's no shame in being homosexual any more. It's positively glorified these days. They are collectively seen as martyrs for the liberal cause.

feisty goddess
Monday, February 7th, 2011, 09:14 PM
ROFL :D

Then you may rather look for a new religion. Even the prostestant (marriage and sex allowed) priest of my school time was GAY :D

And why is it that noone wants to realise that specially catholic priests become priests in the first place to escape the shame of being gay and hide behind the celibacy thingy??? It's not so difficult people, really.

I am not catholic, I was just theoretically speaking. My parents basically never gave me a sex education and wouldn't let me be in the class (heck I barely knew sex existed because my parents monitored the tv so strictly etc. but eventually I found out on my own in early adolesence), so I didn't really have much of an idea that such a thing existed up until I was about 16 or 17 and started to figure out that not everybody in authority is a good or honorable person (ie. hearing stuff on the tv about perverted catholic priests). I also never went to church growing up so I had no idea priests tend to be weirdos.

I think its a good thing for them to take the celibacy thing away, because then you actually get more normal people wanting to be priests. If I am going to be religious, I take it very seriously, I'm not going to listen to some creep who shouldn't be in that authority in the first place. IMO a priest should be a model of the ideal person.

Lothringen
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Naturally. The idea of female clergy only ever flows from liberalism.
As UK ruler, queen Victoria was the head of UK church. The victorian ideal was not really free sexuallity and homosexuality.
I doubt that an old mother superior giving the right to celebrate with nuns will be such a disaster.
Do you think the Volvas were lesbians ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lva
Of course, the idea is not to have a 25 years-old fashion girl (with hidden lesbian feeling) as cleric, but a retired married woman, already grand-mother and giving some catechism course could be, in case of lack of priest given some "extra-power" if she has proved to be an example the community. The same could apply for old married men, already involved in the church. If things go right, criteria could be lower.

In Lorraine, despite you could theorically start the priest training at 18, the bishop of Metz requests the "aspirant-cleric" to have a diploma for a productive job or significative job experience. The idea is not diploma selection (a guy with no diploma but 3 years factory worker experience could apply) but to make sure to avoid student with no life experience, that will, even when realising their lacj of faith, carry-on just to avoid unemployement.



This may have been the case in the past, but there's no shame in being homosexual any more. It's positively glorified these days. They are collectively seen as martyrs for the liberal cause.
True.
When I was 20 with no success with girls, I asked my local priest if this "lack of attraction" was the will of God to help me choosing celibacy and be priest.
He answer that such a decision should be a real call of my faith, not just motivated by the resignation of having to live without girls.

Just as I said above, it should be a mature decision, not the one of a boy/girl just coming out dad'n'mum house.

For example, just look Joan of Arc, despite she had an hard life, her village destroyed, she had to wait few years before her call of faith could be followed. Do you expect today's 18 young people (boy or girl) having maturity to start following God quicker than a Saint did ?

ErlkŲnig
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Why don't they just let people masturbate for gods sake.:oanieyes

Northern Paladin
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 05:35 PM
Celibacy can only make you bitter, and very often leads to perversion. Just look at all the pedophile priests, they were mostly celibate Catholics. I'm for the change.

GroeneWolf
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Celibacy can only make you bitter, and very often leads to perversion. Just look at all the pedophile priests, they were mostly celibate Catholics. I'm for the change.

A more likely explanation is that because they are in a position of authority towards children that pedophiles get drawn to it. Same thing with teachers. And there are people out there who are asexual, or who have very low sex drive. And in former times they would could escape social pressure by joining the priesthood, where they could fill an accepted part in social life. Those who truly where sexually frustrated usually had clandestine affairs with nuns then with choir boys.

Northern Paladin
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 06:12 PM
A more likely explanation is that because they are in a position of authority towards children that pedophiles get drawn to it. Same thing with teachers. And there are people out there who are asexual, or who have very low sex drive. And in former times they would could escape social pressure by joining the priesthood, where they could fill an accepted part in social life. Those who truly where sexually frustrated usually had clandestine affairs with nuns then with choir boys.

I'm sure of it. There are a lot of people who do this, but I'm sure not all of the pedophilic priests fit into this category. Celibacy is fairly detrimental. Imagine being a 40 year old virgin, thinking about everything you missed out on, especially if you're in the presence of young boys who will probably have girlfriends and enjoy their youth like you could have but didn't.

Then there is the negating of natural impulses which must torment these poor souls, impulses such as lust towards beautiful women. I'm sure Catholic priests have fallen in love plenty of times, and it must been pure torture. These people have to try to replace their natural impulses with something else, like pedophilia, in order to keep themselves going. Some did end up, as you said, having affairs with choir boys as a result.

shakinginmyshoes
Tuesday, February 8th, 2011, 06:36 PM
I think mature men who have been married decades are the *ideal* for priests,
and I always wondered why the celibacy thing.
I was told the reason is, a priest should follow Jesus, and since He was not married, they should not.

Yet, we see the result: Pedophilia.

Young men are not constituted to be celibate. It's better to marry than to burn. And anyway, we need the birthrate up. So how is a celibate 30- something priest, even assuming he IS capable of the mental strength of being celibate, of any use in counseling young people about marriage?

Better an older, married man, who's gained wisdom from being a husband and father (and possibly in need of viagra, anyway). That's the way to protect altar boys AND minister to the needs of the flock.
And since he's older, there's no kids to support, anyway.

How did the Catholic Church ever come to the conclusion that the best and brightest young men of the village ought to be celibate priests, anyway?
Dummmmmmmmb.

Funny how $$$$$$ considerations and convenience always seem to manage to morph themselves into Revelations from God.

Lothringen
Wednesday, February 9th, 2011, 01:11 PM
Then there is the negating of natural impulses which must torment these poor souls, impulses such as lust towards beautiful women. I'm sure Catholic priests have fallen in love plenty of times, and it must been pure torture.

The exact word is "TEMPTATION". If you cannot fight it, there are plenty of other way to serve your God than the catholic priesthood. Temptation is not only sexual, old people tend to be confident in priest hand give them money for charity. Moreover the confession gives you a lot of knowledge that could be sold to private detective agencies...




Young men are not constituted to be celibate. It's better to marry than to burn. And anyway, we need the birthrate up. So how is a celibate 30- something priest, even assuming he IS capable of the mental strength of being celibate, of any use in counseling young people about marriage?
The priesthood is not the main reason that compells a man to celibate, you can have:
- ugly face
- disformed/mutilated body
- shyness, incompetence to "speak with girls"
- genetic/contagious disease that would affect the wife or the future children
that give you lots of difficulties to get in contact with women
You can even "choose" celibacy by reason because no have no ressource, no job and therefore find difficulties to take care just about yourself.
Comprehensive dad'n'mum have no difficulties keeping moneyless boy at home, but homing the girlfriend is out of question.




These people have to try to replace their natural impulses with something else, like pedophilia, in order to keep themselves going.
So should we see in every boy that never find a girl to go out with a potential pedophile ? Call the police to arrest every geek who finds himself alone at the prom night !

Totenkopf
Wednesday, February 9th, 2011, 09:30 PM
You can know for sure that the church has degenerated beyond all means when they allow something that is vehemently opposed in the bible. The ending of celibacy on the other hand is a smart move and can hopefully curb some sexual immorality within the priesthood. As far as I know, the motion of being Celibate is a man's made tradition, and isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible.

∆meric
Thursday, February 10th, 2011, 01:13 AM
As UK ruler, queen Victoria was the head of UK church. The victorian ideal was not really free sexuallity and homosexuality.
Queen Elizabeth II has been the head of the Church of England since 1952. How has that worked out?


In actuality the British monarch defers bishopic appointments to the prime minster. Victoria & Elizabeth are just symbolic heads.

Ardito
Thursday, February 10th, 2011, 06:42 PM
You can know for sure that the church has degenerated beyond all means when they allow something that is vehemently opposed in the bible. The ending of celibacy on the other hand is a smart move and can hopefully curb some sexual immorality within the priesthood. As far as I know, the motion of being Celibate is a man's made tradition, and isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible.

It can be inferred as a worthy ascetic practice from the personal conduct of Jesus, who was celibate.

Lothringen
Friday, February 11th, 2011, 11:36 AM
It can be inferred as a worthy ascetic practice from the personal conduct of Jesus, who was celibate.
Despite this is the "official" interpretation, some people debate that as any man of IsraŽl, Jesus could have been married around 20.
We know just a little about is chilhood, then BLANK until 30...

So is there spawn of Jesus & Magdalena as Dan Brown suggests ?

This is not evident even if you can prove that social environment of Jesus lead him to marry.
Imaginating that he had a wife, who, like many, died after giving birth to a child, or got killed (with the children) in this era of trouble:
"Josephus recounts another incident in which Pilate spent money from the Temple to build an aqueduct. When Jews again protested his actions, Pilate had soldiers hidden in the crowd of Jews while addressing them. After giving the signal, Pilate's soldiers randomly attacked, beat, and killed scores of Jews to silence their petitions"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate#Pilate_in_Jewish_literatu re
Such an event could have lead Jesus choosing non-violence protest and trying to "convert" the Romans rather than trying full opposition. We know that Christ was THE one who always forgives but never forget.
(personnaly I won't argue on this hypothesis, but I find it very useful when some atheist start finding suspect the idea of a 30 years old virgin in the antiquity and start saying some gay bullshit about the "disciple that Jesus loved", I just answer "maybe it was the brother of his wife or the fiancee of his dead daughter ?")


Therefore dicovery of a Christ weeding would be totally irrelevent for my faith as it is not incompatible with the Gospel. No need to imagine any affair with Magdalena, or hoax between Golgotha and the Tomb.

If you have encounter widow & widower, you may have notice that several of them who loved so deeply the lost mate can definitively not even think about having relationship with anybody else, thinking even a memory could be betrayed. For this kind of people, chastity & celibacy would never be a problem. Even "better", they sometimes love so much beyond death that it is strictly out of question that there would not be a "paradise" prepared for the loved one and a God welcome him/her at his side. Serving God become therefore a way to assure the best afterlife for the loved one. Especially if the God transmit some messages during prayer answers.

That remember be an explanation about the virginity of Joan of Arc, largely doubted by unbelievers because she was a 17 girl in the middle of plenty of young handsome knights.
In Sobesky movie, she had a boyfriend in Domremy and perhaps the wish to be her wife (don't forget that even after the "voices" Joan's father tried to marry her). In this time because of strict education (and lack of reliable contraception) teenager wouldn't do anything except taking hand before weeding. After seeing him burning alive during the burgund raid on Domremy, she was not really ready for a new relationship...

Gruno
Friday, February 11th, 2011, 12:16 PM
I hope celibacy can be put on an end once and for all. By allowing priests of all denominations to be married they will have an outlet for their sexual frustrations and hopefully will no longer take it out on choirboys and girls from the orphanage. Celibacy, whether forced or voluntary, is unnatural.

Chlodovech
Sunday, February 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM
Despite this is the "official" interpretation, some people debate that as any man of IsraŽl, Jesus could have been married around 20.
We know just a little about is chilhood, then BLANK until 30...

So is there spawn of Jesus & Magdalena as Dan Brown suggests ?

Mary Magdalene kept nagging until Christ finally gave in, and married her. Because that's how she was. Nag, nag, nag. She never gave the Lord a moment's rest. :-O

Alas for the mason Dan Brown and his radical feminist wife (she fed him a lot of ideas for the Da Vinci Code, we have a word for her kind, we call them 'Magheads') there's not a single shred of evidence to support the marriage theory, and a baby was never in the picture, not in the Bible, and not in the gnostic writings. It's masonic spin on a rumour that has been circulating at least since the Middle Ages. Also, according to a (rather weak) tradition M.M. was married to Christ's favorite disciple, btw.

Furthermore, the notion of Christ having a child seems to contradict His claim of His kingdom not being of this earth. And in choosing to procreate He would've indulged in the same sin as the 'sons of God' did in Genesis: 'race-mixing' between humans and beings God created. Something I find problematic if you believe that God is Jesus.

Magheads need a deity with working sex organs and a dream husband. Plenty of those pairings outside the confines of Christianity, but there aren't a lot of Magheads who have the courage to venture outside of "safe" parameters. When religion as they learned it no longer has relevance or runs counter to their life choices, they can either find another religion that does or re-work the old one...

Mary Magdalene being an apostle is something I could wrap my mind around if it turned out to be true - or even as Christ's favorite disciple, as some gnostic texts would have it. M.M. is of huge importance anyway, she's the apostle to the apostles, she financed them, her eyes were the first to see the risen Christ, and she's a very popular saint.

Mary Madgalene as Christ's favorite woman, I don't object to that idea either, it's biblical.

But everything else is just a modern day attempt to find a female equivalent for Christ, one that pushes Christ to the background at times. The role of women has changed in our century, some people therefore feel that christianity has to adapt to this new reality, and the story needs to be rewritten.

Catholicism already has a poster girl in the shape of Christ's mother, M.M. is an excellent number 2, but I suppose its due to M.M.'s (undeserved) bad reputation, plus the fact that she seems to be the only character of flesh and blood, easy to connect with and human-like (in contrast with Our Lady, it's impossible for mere mortals to attain her greatness), in the Christ story, that she speaks to the imagination of New Age nutters, masons, christians and the public at large alike.


That remember be an explanation about the virginity of Joan of Arc, largely doubted by unbelievers because she was a 17 girl in the middle of plenty of young handsome knights.
In Sobesky movie, she had a boyfriend in Domremy and perhaps the wish to be her wife (don't forget that even after the "voices" Joan's father tried to marry her). In this time because of strict education (and lack of reliable contraception) teenager wouldn't do anything except taking hand before weeding. After seeing him burning alive during the burgund raid on Domremy, she was not really ready for a new relationship...

I disrespect Christian Duguay for depicting St. Jeanne in such a way. Not because having a relationship to a knight would be the end of the world - there are plenty of married saints, it's no big deal - but by adding elements to the original hagiography and sexing up the story for a contemporary audience.

velvet
Monday, February 14th, 2011, 12:40 PM
You know everything about a Jewish TRIBE's "god" (a damn fuckn HUMAN), everything about Jewish morals, everything about Jewish imagination of "sin", everything about Jewish imagination of heaven and the afterlife, everything about the Jewish genealogy.

I wished people would know just half as much about their OWN tribe's ancient history, gods, values and genealogy :(

Hemerik
Monday, February 14th, 2011, 01:20 PM
What do all the non-Catholics here care about the Catholic Church-internal matter of the role of the Catholic priest, anyway? There seems to be a lot of resentment in some of the comments in this thread.

Lothringen
Tuesday, February 15th, 2011, 03:24 PM
everything about the Jewish genealogy.

Hey dude, this sub-forum is "Catholicism & the Church of Rome"
Do you know how St Matthew starts with:

1 An account of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Aram,
4 and Aram the father of Aminadab, and Aminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah,
7 and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asaph,
8 and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah,
9 and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12 And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Salathiel, and Salathiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud,
15 and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

In fact this is just the male ascendency.
According a legend from Brittany, St Marie is 50% celtic ! as her mother St Anne is coming from Plonťvez-Porzay.
She was to be married to an evil warlord when an angel help her escaping to IsraŽl where she married to Joachim. She was often confused with goddess Dana as "Mamm gozh ar Vretoned" (grand-mother of Britons). More realisticly, she could have been an escape slave from a roman officer, maybe after a shipwreck, this could explain why Marie has so often a "western" look...and why the Celts (Brittany, Ireland) are so deeply christian.


Sorry to be catholic and study the Bible as the "Panzer Cardinal" Ratzinger /Benedict XVI cleric told me every Sunday...

If I have today proof that I have ancestor in Lorraine in the XVIIth century (even before Louis XIV took it from the Holy Empire), it is thanks to the Church registries of baptism and weeding.
Nevertheless my blue eyes and the blond hair I had as a child (and that mine have too) have always been sufficient to guess that most of my ancestors are not coming from Mecca, Kyoto or Tombouctou...But I admit am not really sure about those who may have follow Gottfried von Bouillon to Jerusalem and could have brought to Lorraine some Judith or Esther bimbo out of there...

Lothringen always proud to serve the Church and Empire as Deutsch Ritter !
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Schloss-heuchlingen-wappen-lothringen.JPG/800px-Schloss-heuchlingen-wappen-lothringen.JPG