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Telperion
Saturday, June 26th, 2004, 06:03 PM
I've been thinking of going to Greece for a vacation, and came across this interesting tidbit on a travel website for Crete:



People of Crete



Maybe it sounds strange to you, but many people from Sfakia are blue-eyed and fair-haired: The ancient Thracians were proverbially blue-eyed and fair-haired. Tall blonds were common among the ancient Greeks, who were a long-headed people and the Sphakiots of Crete, probably the purest representatives of the old Hellenes in existence, are tall and blond. But considering that Greek colonization was taking place on a great scale in the eighth century B.C., and that, centuries earlier and later, the restless Hellene had been fighting, trading, plundering and kidnapping, on both sides of the ∆gean, and perhaps as far as the shores of Syria and of Egypt, it is probable that, even at the dawn of history, the maritime Greeks were a very mixed race.

http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/people.html (http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/people.html)

I find it interesting that some of the Medicists on the main Skadi forum flatly deny that the original Hellenes had a Nordid phenotype, and that indigenous/martitime as well as modern Greeks are a very different type from the ancient Hellenes, being very sub-racially mixed. Yet, some of their own countrymen openly admit this to be the case.

Mac Seafraidh
Sunday, June 27th, 2004, 03:32 AM
I've been thinking of going to Greece for a vacation, and came across this interesting tidbit on a travel website for Crete:


[font=Verdana][size=3]
I find it interesting that some of the Medicists on the main Skadi forum flatly deny that the original Hellenes had a Nordid phenotype, and that indigenous/martitime as well as modern Greeks are a very different type from the ancient Hellenes, being very sub-racially mixed. Yet, some of their own countrymen openly admit this to be the case.
Very Nice site Telperion :thumbsup

Modern Benoni
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 09:58 AM
I've been thinking of going to Greece for a vacation, and came across this interesting tidbit on a travel website for Crete:


[font=Verdana][size=3]
I find it interesting that some of the Medicists on the main Skadi forum flatly deny that the original Hellenes had a Nordid phenotype, and that indigenous/martitime as well as modern Greeks are a very different type from the ancient Hellenes, being very sub-racially mixed. Yet, some of their own countrymen openly admit this to be the case.That only proves that there were blondes in ancient Greece as there are blondes in modern Greece. Blonde hair--for the one hundreth time--does not equal Nordid! Richard Mcculloch won't accept spanairds with blonde hair, blue eyes but with mediterranean skin and body structures as Nordish. Yet any little trace of blondism or light eyes on an illustrious ancient Greek or Roman, and he automatically becomes Nordic.

Strengthandhonour
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 04:51 PM
I don't deny the fact that there was/is blonds in southern Europe. One who has studied the ancient hellenic period, can realize easily, that there where many popular blond figures in ancient Greece. Like Alexander the Great for example, one of the most legendary European figures, had blond hair(atleast from the paintings I have seen).
Also, in Ancient Rome there was several blond haired characters such as Virgil.
I don't deny that there is blond haired and blue eyed people in my motherland, and I never will.

Gesta Bellica
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 05:03 PM
I've been thinking of going to Greece for a vacation, and came across this interesting tidbit on a travel website for Crete:


[font=Verdana][size=3]
I find it interesting that some of the Medicists on the main Skadi forum flatly deny that the original Hellenes had a Nordid phenotype, and that indigenous/martitime as well as modern Greeks are a very different type from the ancient Hellenes, being very sub-racially mixed. Yet, some of their own countrymen openly admit this to be the case.

If blond hair = Nordid yes they were Nordid.
But then we can claim that everyone who is white and has black hair and/or brown eyes is "Medish" or have mediterranean blood, including a pletora of German and Anglo-Saxon historical figures?

Let's not forget that as the word black/brown had a particular meaning in ancient times for the "Nordics" so it's the case of the word "blond" in ancient Rome and Greece.. everybody that has hair lighter than the average chestnut colour was "blonde".

Telperion
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 05:31 PM
Well, I don't think any serious researcher would say there were people with a "nordic" phenotype in ancient Greece (although some people have made such a claim). Perhaps the term Nordid is unfortunate, because it implies that blond southerners trace their ancestry from the northern countries, whereas it seems in reality that these people (ancient Hellenes) were Danubians.

If I recall correctly though, I posted that article because someone had been arguing that blondism was so rare amongst the ancient Greeks as to be effectively non-existent, and I felt that view was anomalous, given that Greeks themselves recognize a strain of blondism in their make-up.

Awar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Eh, Telperion, remembering your youth ;)

Seriously, it's information from a travel site, probably based
on the same western 'historians' hogwash which goes back
to sources from a time when the Irish were considered to be Niggers,
and Scandinavians to be non-white.

I find it ridiculous that serious historians can't discern between
nuances. What is blond (xanthos) to a Greek isn't blond by the standards
of a person from N.Europe.

I said it a few times before. I am medium brown haired, and that's enough for
many of my fellow Serbs to cal me 'blond'.
Yes, there are some really light blond people here, there are red-haired people,
there are all sorts of pigmentations, just as there were since palaeolithic times.

white_pride_forever
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 07:44 AM
Archaeological evidence gives NO assertive indication of any substantive Nordid presence in the Ancient Hellas other than the occasional sporadic 'blond, blue eyed' individual. Art work indicative of such a place and time all indicate a vast majority of Mediterranean racial mixture and composition and even the minority of blondes in Classical Greece still fell under the Mediterranean, not Nordic, racial classification.

yamato
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 08:18 AM
Eh, Telperion, remembering your youth ;)

Seriously, it's information from a travel site, probably based
on the same western 'historians' hogwash which goes back
to sources from a time when the Irish were considered to be Niggers,
and Scandinavians to be non-white.



scandinavians were actually considered non-white? by whom?

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 09:22 AM
scandinavians were actually considered non-white? by whom?

The Irish and the Scandinavians have always been considered Caucasoid by anthropologists and if the existence of subspecies is recognised in modern humans, then because Linneus used himself as the example of a Caucasoid, and he was Swedish, Scandinavians must be Caucasoid.

Awar
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 02:47 PM
scandinavians were actually considered non-white? by whom?

If I remember correctly, Benjamin Franklin, and some other Anglo-Americans
who only considered English people to be 'white'.

Awar
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 02:59 PM
Archaeological evidence gives NO assertive indication of any substantive Nordid presence in the Ancient Hellas other than the occasional sporadic 'blond, blue eyed' individual. Art work indicative of such a place and time all indicate a vast majority of Mediterranean racial mixture and composition and even the minority of blondes in Classical Greece still fell under the Mediterranean, not Nordic, racial classification.

Yes, I don't doubt that there were some 'nordoid' types present in ancient Greece, as they are present even today. But, these people are most likely indigenous, rarely anyone would consider these people to look 'northern European'. Then, there are populations like those in N.Greece or Montenegro which are basically unreduced Cro-Magnoid.

Blonde and red hairs are pretty common in Montenegro ( whose teritory is a part of the ancient Greek world ) , in Coon's works, the Montenegrins and N.Albanians are put in the same 'race' as N.Germans, SW.Scandianvians and W.Irish ( metrically they are the same 'race' ), but genetic evidence shows a predominantly indigenous ( pre-Slavic ) population.

And, yes, many of the Slavs who conquered the Balkans settled in what today is Greece in the beginning of medieval times.

The very word 'blond' has a different meaning in the Balkans. Here, a person can have dark hair and dark eyes, but still be called a 'blondie' because of the very light skin. Most usually, the 'blond' is a light-brown haired person with blue eyes.

Kolio Boga
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 03:16 PM
The ancient Greeks were pretty much like the modern ones - dark-haired and dark-eyed people. In the past they sometimes mixed with light-haired neighbours, today also.

The marble sculptures of the ancient times were "white", that's why some may think there were "white" (in terms of nordic) ancient Greeks.

SouthernBoy
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 08:17 PM
I am interested that it says they were also long-headed.

white_pride_forever
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 08:57 PM
I am interested that it says they were also long-headed.
That's highly irrevelant. The Berbers are often blond, redheaded, blue or green-eyed, yet they have a predominantly Atlanto-Mediterranid composition; long-headedness is a trait shared by this and several other Southern European racial phenotypes.

By the way, in the interests of this thread's legitimacy, let us remember that a a great many Nordics, maybe even around 80%, fall under only one of the blonde-haired, blue-eyed categories and, in a minority of cases, have neither of these pigmentation traits.

Awar
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 09:53 PM
Well, CI changes, as it has been explained in several threads here on Skadi.
The CI of Germans has changed from predom. dolichocephalic to brachycephalic
during the medieval.

SouthernBoy
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 10:41 PM
Are you kidding? A blonde haired, blue eyed Mediterranid would look very similar to a Nordid.

Awar
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 11:17 PM
Yes, but what's blond by mediterranean standards isn't nearly as blond by N.European standards.

yamato
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 11:47 PM
If I remember correctly, Benjamin Franklin, and some other Anglo-Americans
who only considered English people to be 'white'.well...many american colonials of franklin's time looked down on anyone who weren't english, including their own kin, the scots-irish. back then, "racism" had more to do with cultural superiority and xenophobia than race. if a german, a scots-irish, or any other european immigrant could speak english fluently and assimilate into the main population, they would be whole-heartedly accepted. i think it wasn't until the mid to late 19th century that the notion of racial superiority and eugenics began to take hold, popularized by men like chamberlain, grant, and stoddard.

Awar
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 12:21 AM
Sure, but there were some propaganda-anthro works which equated Irish with Negroids etc. silly stuff.

white_pride_forever
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 06:28 AM
Are you kidding? A blonde haired, blue eyed Mediterranid would look very similar to a Nordid.
Hair and eye colour has nothing to do with Nordidism or even Nordicism for that matter. Less than 50% of 'Nordics' fit the both the blond and blue eyed categories.

cruhmann
Sunday, January 16th, 2005, 04:09 AM
Hair and eye colour has nothing to do with Nordidism or even Nordicism for that matter. Less than 50% of 'Nordics' fit the both the blond and blue eyed categories.
Then they are not Nordics. Maybe sub-Nordics. Eye and hair color are racial traits just as stature, body build and skull shape are. Most racial taxonomists include eye, hair and skin color as racial traits.

Awar
Sunday, January 16th, 2005, 04:13 AM
Sub-Nordic is a label for Nordic-Alpine mixes, not darker pigmented Nordid types.

herr georg
Thursday, August 4th, 2005, 07:24 AM
But then we can claim that everyone who is white and has black hair and/or brown eyes is "Medish" or have mediterranean blood, including a pletora of German and Anglo-Saxon historical figures?
No, I think it comes down to the skull shape and length, and the face and the body, to decide whether someone is nordic or nordish.
Dark pigmentation comes from medish, light pigmentation from nordish. Nords with dark hair and eyes get this from medish, and vice versa, but their subrace comes down to their tangible head and body features.

Glenlivet
Thursday, August 4th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Perhaps only if you view races as individuals and not as populations that show variation.

It depends what you mean with dark hair, but it does exist in even Sweden or Russia. There are no native Swedes or Russians who are (in the classic sense) Mediterranids. Individuals within a folk stock are varied. Only a few may show all the traits of the average, predominating type. I do not think you can determine type and origin based on any single trait.


Nords with dark hair and eyes get this from medish, and vice versa, but their subrace comes down to their tangible head and body features.

Huzar
Thursday, August 4th, 2005, 10:06 AM
I think that some darker trait are derivative of the UP strain. Perhaps.

Glenlivet
Thursday, August 4th, 2005, 10:13 AM
That is possible. There are blonde and brunette, unreduced and reduced, so-called Cro-Magnoids.

The Sarakatsani population, who are of the Epirotic type, are strongly Cro-Magnoid. I think that they are predominantly brunette.


I think that some darker trait are derivative of the UP strain. Perhaps.

android
Saturday, December 3rd, 2005, 07:47 AM
I've been thinking of going to Greece for a vacation, and came across this interesting tidbit on a travel website for Crete:


[font=Verdana][size=3]I find it interesting that some of the Medicists on the main Skadi forum flatly deny that the original Hellenes had a Nordid phenotype, and that indigenous/martitime as well as modern Greeks are a very different type from the ancient Hellenes, being very sub-racially mixed. Yet, some of their own countrymen openly admit this to be the case.





I am not a Medicist: but Greeks might have some blondism but they weren't Nordic, light haired and light eyed Meds is not uncommon.

Crownshelm
Wednesday, December 21st, 2005, 06:34 AM
The maternal side of my family is full Greek, all brown hair and brown eyes except for one of my mother's cousins who has blonde hair and blue eyes. And his hair is blonde, not "light brown" making it close enough to blonde for a Greek.. I find that logic to be a little silly.

Angelcynn Beorn
Sunday, May 14th, 2006, 12:51 PM
The evidence for Nordic peoples in ancient Greece is nowhere near as weak as it's being presented here. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it was a majority, but there was certainly a Nordic minority there.

From Coon:


The long heads are not of uniform type; some, with large vaults and strong browridges, with deep nasion depressions, remind one of the larger varieties of Neolithic dolichocephals, of both Long Barrow and Corded types; and FŁrst feels that a number of them are very similar to the Late Neolithic crania from Scandinavia, of about equal age. Needless to say, both Corded and Megalithic people were present in Denmark and Sweden at about this time.


Forty-one Late Helladic skulls, dated between 1500 and 1200 B.C., and coming likewise from Argolis, may include those of some of the "divineborn" invaders. Among these, one-fifth are brachycephalic, and apparently largely of the Cypriote Dinaric type. Of the long-headed skulls, a large number belongs now to the larger, more heavily marked varieties, and fewer to the smaller Mediterranean The similarity to the northern types, and especially to the Corded, is even stronger than before. This increase in a non-Minoan direction may perhaps be attributed to the arrival of the ancestors of Homer's heroes.


Greek literature and Greek art furnish an abundance of evidence as to the pigmentation and the characteristic facial features of the ancient inhabitants of Hellas. The Olympian gods, ancestors of the semi-heroes, were for the most part blond, with ivory shins and golden hair. Athene was gray eyed. Poseidon, however, was black haired. These gods were little different if we may believe Homer, from their descendants the heroes, most of whom were white limbed and golden haired.27

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/chapter-V4.htm

fareast
Sunday, May 21st, 2006, 10:28 AM
I agree that ancient Greeks is nordic race according to the survived sculptures.

Siggtryg
Sunday, May 21st, 2006, 01:13 PM
A for their sculptures, it also could be, that they just tryed to show their idealized version of human beeings. ( like an advertisement )

S.

fareast
Tuesday, May 23rd, 2006, 02:58 AM
A for their sculptures, it also could be, that they just tryed to show their idealized version of human beeings. ( like an advertisement )

S.
I think that 2500 years ago people had no sense to identify what is the ideal human beings as Nazi did.

Siggtryg
Friday, May 26th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Guten Tag.

Well, but it is true that the greeks, especially Sparta, were very much into " body cult".

Of course they didnt think in the same terms as the Nazis did, but on the other hand, the Sparta people for example, werent even raising children that were disabled, but left them somewhere in the wilderness.

So one could say that they had a special awareness of the body and its "perfection".

GruŖ

S.

Ancient Greek Soldier
Wednesday, June 28th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Yes, I know about Sfakia, Crete. It is true that the majority of people in that region are tall, blonde haired, and blue eyed. They never were under slavery by the Turks or Venetians because they fought them off on the tall mountains. They also never mixed with other people from different regions of Crete. They only went out with people of their own region Sfakia. However, if you seen pictures of people in Sfakia, not everyone is tall, blonde haired, and blue eyed. Here are some pictures of people of Sfakia:

http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/2000-6.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/2000-9.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/2000-17.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/may2002/GreekEasterMay2002/images/DSC01067.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/may2002/May2002/images/DSC01008.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/may2002/May2002/images/DSC01235.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/may2002/May2002/images/DSC01288.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/may2002-2/May20022/images/DSC01107.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/oct03/SfakiaOctober2003/images/DSC053.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/oct03/SfakiaOctober2003/images/DSC117.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/oct04/1SfakiaOctober2004/SfakiaOctober20041/images/DSC-099.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com//sfakia-crete/may2005/SfakiaMay2005/images/DSC-025.jpg
Haha, it's a Cretan thing.
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/oct05/SfakiaOctober20051/images/DSC-041.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/henk/HenksPhotosofSfakiaOctober/images/29-Thats-one.jpg
http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/henk/HenksPhotosofSfakiaOctober/images/51-Captain-Giannis.jpg

SubGnostic
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 12:11 AM
I think that 2500 years ago people had no sense to identify what is the ideal human beings as Nazi did.

Compare the common values of antiquity (truth, beauty, benignity) to judeo-christian values (faith, hope, love). I'm pretty sure they had a sense of an ideal human being as the Nazis.

Blond hair, blue eyes doesn't alone constitute Nordi(d,c)ness. More emphasis should be on physique and facial/cranial features. Finns are said to be the most blond haired people in the world, yet the subracial group of Nordi(d,c)s remains a minority.

Tritan
Tuesday, July 25th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Im full Greek I can tell you my son and daughter are both blonde haired blue eyed my oldest son is brown haired green eyed like myself. Although blonde/blue eyes is a minority in Hellas it does exist the same way it existed in the past.

Kshatriya
Saturday, November 18th, 2006, 06:36 PM
dark blonde meds is no exception

they werent nordic

KPopper
Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Ancient greeks being pure nordics itís a pure myth. Letís hear an ancient greek philosopher, Xenofanes: ďwith a flat nose, black, thatís the way ethiopian see the gods. But with blue eyes and blond, itís the way thracian see the gods.Ē Why Xenofanes use the thracian and not the greeks, if the ancient greeks were unpolluted nordics? ;)