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Hamar Fox
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Is it me or is life ultimately meaningless on an atheistic world-view?

Think about it. Our lives and actions become ultimately meaningless if all we are is dirt in the ground after it is over. Some may say that our actions are useful so that we can live on in the memories of our loved ones or so that we can pass on our genes to the next generation by reproducing. But in the end humanity will be destroyed in the heath death of the universe, no memory of our actions will exist, and there will be no future generations to pass our genetics on to. Another common response is that we endow our lives with meaning, but that is just us making up and superimposing a meaning to our lives. It is not a real, objective meaning.

A child growing up in the world, completely ignorant of religion, is going to survey his surroundings with wonder, invest them with meaning, throw himself utterly into their midst, and this because it's every human's default setting. Only a minority of people, religious or not, think about the world philosophically, abstractly, and still fewer make a direct connection between their abstract reflections and their implicit dealings with the world. Only where religion has hijacked this deeply human and fundamentally non-religious instinct do we find such silliness as 'People are going to shrink under the suffocating blanket of their nihilistic death bed, and all humanity will be undone!" No, nihilism is a strain on the spirit. It's not a natural position to anyone not manically depressed, and, as such, it's very rarely sustained beyond adolescence.


I think atheism, if followed to its logical conclusion, is equivalent to nihilism. An utterly meaningless existence wherein no action is superior or inferior to another.

Not relevant to its philosophical validity. But, anyway, luckily for you the vast majority of people aren't thinkers, so who's going to take it to its logical conclusion? Certainly fewer than take Christianity to its logical conclusion and bring charity to worthless raced, quadrupling their numbers each generation, and then inviting them back to their Christian homelands when their now-inflated numbers create endless war and famine in their own lands. In fact, a modicum of nihilism might healthily break us free of the stilted universalist morality that Christianity has suffocated us with for centuries.


It also seems that atheism and autism are linked--

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html

Hmm, it's a good job the religious have a perfect track record when it comes to mental health. Imagine how ironic it'd be to bring up the issue if we lived in some alternate reality where religious people are often schizophrenic serial killers and child molesters and creepy rambling weirdos who try to urinate on you at the bus stop. And, of course, let's be thankful that the religious creator of this thread wasn't a mentally disturbed troll banned for promoting the idea that Britons are descended from a lost tribe of Israel, amidst various other philo-Semitic rants.

Guinevere
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 11:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdifnfdezE

Suppose you REALLY BELIEVE that there is no God...
and you REALLY BELIEVE that there's no intelligent purpose or design to the universe...
So, therefore, you believe that nothing REALLY MATTERS. (belief, actions, etc...)
Then, why would you go through the trouble arguing about it?
UNLESS...
you REALLY DON'T BELIEVE what you claim?

Every Atheist who argues therefore has to be a fake.

:thumbup

If you don't get the video, or what's written above then think a little bit more about it.

Atheists believe there is no meaning or purpose to anything.

Why then do they debate over the net? Why all the trouble?

If you check my other thread, you will find 3 or 4 atheists who have trolled it out, going through great lengths to insult or attempt to refute Christianity or the Bible. Why though? Atheism means there is no purpose or meaning to anything.
So, your proof that all atheists are 'fake' is the simple fact that people argue their thinking on the internet, and especially do so in an understandably trollish way when posts like yours are made? You seem to be quite the silly little man :). Just because people are atheists doesn't mean that they go through out life like some type of indifferent, emotionless, robotic creature or something of the sort.. If atheists thought the way you are implying they do, I'm pretty sure that close to all atheists would be in prison due to living like some kind of insane anarchist.

Kauz R. Waldher
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 01:15 PM
"I think atheism, if followed to its logical conclusion, is equivalent to nihilism. An utterly meaningless existence wherein no action is superior or inferior to another."

Nietzsche does too.

Plantagenet
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 06:48 PM
A child growing up in the world, completely ignorant of religion, is going to survey his surroundings with wonder, invest them with meaning, throw himself utterly into their midst, and this because it's every human's default setting. Only a minority of people, religious or not, think about the world philosophically, abstractly, and still fewer make a direct connection between their abstract reflections and their implicit dealings with the world. Only where religion has hijacked this deeply human and fundamentally non-religious instinct do we find such silliness as 'People are going to shrink under the suffocating blanket of their nihilistic death bed, and all humanity will be undone!" No, nihilism is a strain on the spirit. It's not a natural position to anyone not manically depressed, and, as such, it's very rarely sustained beyond adolescence.

So basically the world doesn't have any meaning, but as long as humans do not think philosophically or abstractly, it is OK because in their ignorance they will be unaware of the ultimate meaninglessness of existence on an atheistic world-view?

One must also ask why religion, spirituality, and mystical experience is a common trend among all people across a variety of cultures and time periods. Atheism, while existing since the ancient world, has only become prominent fairly recently. And if you have noticed, religion isn't going away. I know your reply will be that atheists are enlightened beings and that people only believe in religion because they are weak or stupid, but it is a position I seriously doubt.


Not relevant to its philosophical validity. But, anyway, luckily for you the vast majority of people aren't thinkers, so who's going to take it to its logical conclusion? Certainly fewer than take Christianity to its logical conclusion and bring charity to worthless raced, quadrupling their numbers each generation, and then inviting them back to their Christian homelands when their now-inflated numbers create endless war and famine in their own lands. In fact, a modicum of nihilism might healthily break us free of the stilted universalist morality that Christianity has suffocated us with for centuries.

We're not talking about Christianity here. We are talking about atheism, its not about comparing the two. The point remains, atheism taken to its logical conclusion does lead to an utterly meaningless existence. To think this view hasn't taken toll on the populace would be wishful thinking at best, in our atheistic era people are more materialistic, deviant, and self-centered than ever before. And why shouldn't they be? In their minds, there is no higher purpose, no life after death, and no action that is objectively superior to another. Why not just satisfy ones desires and live totally for oneself when there is no ulterior motive to do otherwise?


Hmm, it's a good job the religious have a perfect track record when it comes to mental health. Imagine how ironic it'd be to bring up the issue if we lived in some alternate reality where religious people are often schizophrenic serial killers and child molesters and creepy rambling weirdos who try to urinate on you at the bus stop. And, of course, let's be thankful that the religious creator of this thread wasn't a mentally disturbed troll banned for promoting the idea that Britons are descended from a lost tribe of Israel, amidst various other philo-Semitic rants.

Again, we aren't talking about religious people. The study shows that atheism and autism are linked, it has nothing to do with religion. Are you so insecure about your beliefs that you must attack others?

Northern Paladin
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 07:11 PM
"I think atheism, if followed to its logical conclusion, is equivalent to nihilism. An utterly meaningless existence wherein no action is superior or inferior to another."

Nietzsche does too.

Yes, if you do that, but people generally don't. Furthermore, this observation totally ignores the fact that people can assign their own meaning to their lives.

I, for one, find it absolutely amazing and utterly awesome that I exist. The chances of me being the person I am were pretty much one in infinity. Had the sequence of events prior to my conception been only infinitesimally different, I might have turned out a totally different conscious being. I consider the act of preserving this amazing coincidence far superior to the other alternative.

Let me ask you this: doesn't the lack of god make you and I, and everything we experience, and everything around us all the more special?

Hamar Fox
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 07:47 PM
So basically the world doesn't have any meaning, but as long as humans do not think philosophically or abstractly, it is OK because in their ignorance they will be unaware of the ultimate meaninglessness of existence on an atheistic world-view?

Hole in one. Although, of course, that's assuming that people would always come to the philosophical conclusion that something needs to have absolute value in order to be valued at all. There's absolutely no reason that people, even those in the know, would make this assumption. Irreligious or no, any thinking man knows that his mother is no more special, in an absolute sense, than any other woman on Earth. But this has zero bearing on his valuation of her.


One must also ask why religion, spirituality, and mystical experience is a common trend among all people across a variety of cultures and time periods.

For the same reason belief in the flatness of the Earth, belief in the spiritual root of disease, belief in the angry-God explanation of bad weather, span cultures and ages.


Atheism, while existing since the ancient world, has only become prominent fairly recently. And if you have noticed, religion isn't going away.

Not among Negroes and Bosnians. Among Britons, however, it's been poisoned, hanged, drawn and quartered, and then shot several times in the head for good measure. We're a special people and I don't expect the entire world to follow suit, but I see similar trends among other NW Europeans -- that is, races similarly gifted -- and I have high hopes that soon religion will be as dead to them as it is to us.


I know your reply will be that atheists are enlightened beings and that people only believe in religion because they are weak or stupid, but it is a position I seriously doubt.

Not really. Most people absorb whatever culture is presented to them. Most agnostics in Western Europe would be Christians were they born in the US. But, as I said above, the average idiot of one nation can be smarter than the average idiot of another. Most Germanics don't see wrathful Gods behind every cloud, or malign spirits behind every disappearance of car keys, unlike the world's lesser races, so when the religious pressure is off them, belief fades away. Again, it will always exist among Negroes, though.


We're not talking about Christianity here. We are talking about atheism, its not about comparing the two. The point remains, atheism taken to its logical conclusion does lead to an utterly meaningless existence. To think this view hasn't taken toll on the populace would be wishful thinking at best, in our atheistic era people are more materialistic, deviant, and self-centered than ever before.

The most materialistic nation in the Western world is also the most religious. There's absolutely no connection between nihilism and materialism (given that materialists have a very devout belief in the worth of material acquisition) or between religiosity and anti-materialism. America's religious right are mind-bendingly capitalistic. The most obnoxious materialist I've ever known (online, I know none in real life) was an uber-Christian American woman. Ew, she was vile. I've never known any such person in my agnostic/atheist nation.


And why shouldn't they be? In their minds, there is no higher purpose, no life after death, and no action that is objectively superior to another. Why not just satisfy ones desires and live totally for oneself when there is no ulterior motive to do otherwise?

If that were done by most people (which it isn't, since materialism isn't a remotely gratifying way to live), then we'd see nature become the author of our morality and life choices once again. That would be infinitely preferable to that role being filled by desert Jews.


Again, we aren't talking about religious people. The study shows that atheism and autism are linked, it has nothing to do with religion.

And as I said, religiosity, to me, is linked to paedophilia and general creepiness. But I wouldn't bring this up over actually arguing the points they make. The fact that Father O'Rafferty likes to give the young boys amongst his flock extracurricular private tuition doesn't in itself mean that his arguments for the existence of God are poor. His poor logic means his arguments are poor.

Sigyn
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 08:01 PM
Not among Negroes and Bosnians. Among Britons, however, it's been poisoned, hanged, drawn and quartered, and then shot several times in the head for good measure. We're a special people and I don't expect the entire world to follow suit, but I see similar trends among other NW Europeans -- that is, races similarly gifted -- and I have high hopes that soon religion will be as dead to them as it is to us.
Well, religion is mostly dead in Scandinavia. That is, among ethnic Scandinavians. Our state churches are a parody of what they used to be and have no real purpose, that's obvious to everyone. I think the Swedish church, before it turned into a joke, used to be an upholder of traditions...but genuine religious fervor, not really. Religion has been dying over here for a long time, even before Cultural Marxism came around; it's been mainly a ceremonial thing during the past centuries.

From what I know, the only European countries where religion is an actually powerful force is Poland and the Balkans.

Hamar Fox
Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 10:21 PM
"I think atheism, if followed to its logical conclusion, is equivalent to nihilism. An utterly meaningless existence wherein no action is superior or inferior to another."

Nietzsche does too.

Nietzsche said that it's what would happen if people fell into the Christianity-primed trap of assigning all value to the absolute. He thought that because Christianity had owned the discourse on 'meaning' for centuries, rejection of Christianity would, within the cultural context of his time, lead to the rejection of meaning.

Plantagenet
Wednesday, December 21st, 2011, 01:31 AM
Hole in one. Although, of course, that's assuming that people would always come to the philosophical conclusion that something needs to have absolute value in order to be valued at all. There's absolutely no reason that people, even those in the know, would make this assumption. Irreligious or no, any thinking man knows that his mother is no more special, in an absolute sense, than any other woman on Earth. But this has zero bearing on his valuation of her.

OK but life is still ultimately meaningless. And the intelligent sector of society, the leaders and guiders of society, would be capable of coming to that philosophical conclusion. Gotcha. Why are we for Germanic preservation again?


For the same reason belief in the flatness of the Earth, belief in the spiritual root of disease, belief in the angry-God explanation of bad weather, span cultures and ages.

Oh the "I'm smarter because I don't believe in God" line. I see. Yup, all those silly religious folks who are among the greatest geniuses, scientists, philosophers, and artists of all time just believed in silly stuff because they are silly and not as smart as us enlightened atheist beings.


Not among Negroes and Bosnians. Among Britons, however, it's been poisoned, hanged, drawn and quartered, and then shot several times in the head for good measure. We're a special people and I don't expect the entire world to follow suit, but I see similar trends among other NW Europeans -- that is, races similarly gifted -- and I have high hopes that soon religion will be as dead to them as it is to us.

Hmmm...yeah you sure are special alright. Special enough to be the most culturally Marxist, politically correct, degenerate, and weak-willed group of people currently existing. Special enough to give your country away to foreigners and imprison people like Emma West for speaking out against your own cultural and ethnic suicide. This trend is also occurring in most secular, atheistic, and NW European countries. Meanwhile the more religious European nations (which are still relatively secular compared to the ideal), such as Italy, Ireland, Poland, and parts of Russia are much less culturally poisoned. Wonder why?

So what good is atheism going to do you when your countries are finally overrun and Britain is no longer Britain?


Most Germanics don't see wrathful Gods behind every cloud, or malign spirits behind every disappearance of car keys, unlike the world's lesser races, so when the religious pressure is off them, belief fades away. Again, it will always exist among Negroes, though.

It is a shame that you believe that is all religion is. The way you describe religion sounds to me that you don't know much about religion besides plebeian strand of exoteric Christianity or from searching "why religion is stupid" on google. If that was the basis of my conception of religion, I would find it useless as well.


The most materialistic nation in the Western world is also the most religious. There's absolutely no connection between nihilism and materialism (given that materialists have a very devout belief in the worth of material acquisition) or between religiosity and anti-materialism. America's religious right are mind-bendingly capitalistic. The most obnoxious materialist I've ever known (online, I know none in real life) was an uber-Christian American woman. Ew, she was vile. I've never known any such person in my agnostic/atheist nation.

If you think that America is religious then you are sorely mistaken. There is nothing in modern America that resembles a traditional mindset or even the most basic understanding of transcendence. The people who claim to be Christian are often just as secular and culturally Marxist as their atheist countrymen. Just because people answer "I believe in God" or "religion is important to me" on a poll doesn't mean they have the faintest idea of what spirituality is about or behave in a religious way.


If that were done by most people (which it isn't, since materialism isn't a remotely gratifying way to live), then we'd see nature become the author of our morality and life choices once again. That would be infinitely preferable to that role being filled by desert Jews.

It seems to me that many modern people DO live just the way I described. Could you clarify what you mean by "nature become the author of our morality"? As far as I can see, there is no room for an absolute or objective morality on an atheistic world-view.


And as I said, religiosity, to me, is linked to paedophilia and general creepiness. But I wouldn't bring this up over actually arguing the points they make. The fact that Father O'Rafferty likes to give the young boys amongst his flock extracurricular private tuition doesn't in itself mean that his arguments for the existence of God are poor. His poor logic means his arguments are poor.

Well I think an actual attempt at a scientific study is quite different from your own subjective opinion of what religiosity is linked to, which sounds to me to have been absorbed by the general culture around you (cultural Marxism) as you mentioned earlier. Either way, I wasn't using the fact that atheism and autism are linked to try to debunk atheist arguments.

Kauz R. Waldher
Wednesday, December 21st, 2011, 03:15 AM
"The life of all beings, without exception, is ruled by a primordial Force deep inside them. The nature of this force is craving: an appetite that is never satisfied, an endless restlessness, an irresistible need, and ablind wild yearning.The essence of this primordial cosmic nature is: becoming; chaotic and disorderly transformation; anincoercible flux; generation-destruction; attraction-repulsion; terror-desire; formation-dissolution. All of these elements are combined in a fiery mixture that knows no rest.The wise spoke of is as wonder and as a terror. They called it: Universal and Living Fire,υλη (matter), Green Dragon, Quintessence, First Substance, Great Magical Agent. The principle of the universal work is also the principle of their “Great Work,” since the Magistery of Creation and the Magistery with which man realizes himself according to the royal Art are one and the same.This Matter of ours is neither an abstraction of profane philosophy nor a myth or a fairy tale, but a living and powerful reality, the spirit and vitality of the Earth and of Life.The human race does not know it. A providential natural law keeps it hidden from their consciousness through the illusory spectacle of material phenomena, of solid reality, without which there would be no rest or peace in their lives. According to the same providential law, this veil of ignorance is removed andthe eye of Knowledge is opened only at a certain point of growth and in the presence of a strength ableto endure the vision."

Hamar Fox
Wednesday, December 21st, 2011, 09:54 AM
OK but life is still ultimately meaningless. And the intelligent sector of society, the leaders and guiders of society, would be capable of coming to that philosophical conclusion. Gotcha. Why are we for Germanic preservation again?

American sarcasm. My least favourite kind. I've already said several times now that things don't need to be absolute in order to be valued. For example, I care about my cat....even though I'm an atheist!!!! :-O :-O :-O :-O

Also, in no religion I know of is the survival of Germanics an imperative.


Oh the "I'm smarter because I don't believe in God" line. I see. Yup, all those silly religious folks who are among the greatest geniuses, scientists, philosophers, and artists of all time just believed in silly stuff because they are silly and not as smart as us enlightened atheist beings.

American sarcasm again. Still my least favourite kind. My point wasn't remotely about how smart the ancients were, but how able they were to reach correct conclusions based on the means available to them. The most compelling arguments for the existence of God (i.e. teleological ones) are now dead in the water.


Hmmm...yeah you sure are special alright. Special enough to be the most culturally Marxist, politically correct, degenerate, and weak-willed group of people currently existing.

American sarc....oh, forget it.

But, nope. You obviously know next to nothing about Britain. We're not slightly Marxist. We're bland conservatives with no political fight in us. Get it right, please.


Special enough to give your country away to foreigners and imprison people like Emma West for speaking out against your own cultural and ethnic suicide.

Because that doesn't happen in any other Western nation.


This trend is also occurring in most secular, atheistic, and NW European countries. Meanwhile the more religious European nations (which are still relatively secular compared to the ideal), such as Italy, Ireland, Poland, and parts of Russia are much less culturally poisoned. Wonder why?

Definitely. Because everyone wants to move to Poland. But they're all, "no are have not are come because you are not will different religion!!!"

Definitely.


So what good is atheism going to do you when your countries are finally overrun and Britain is no longer Britain?

My point is and always has been that atheism/agnosticism is entirely incidental to these processes. America is in a worse racial position than Britain, so what's religion done for you lately?


It is a shame that you believe that is all religion is. The way you describe religion sounds to me that you don't know much about religion besides plebeian strand of exoteric Christianity or from searching "why religion is stupid" on google. If that was the basis of my conception of religion, I would find it useless as well.

No, I was just exploring the root of superstitious stupidity. A retard needs to explain the complexity of existence in the simplest way possible. This is the bedrock instinct of religious feeling. There exist needs for cultural nourishment also, which religion can answer, but there's absolutely no inherent reason why a culture should be religiously based.


If you think that America is religious then you are sorely mistaken. There is nothing in modern America that resembles a traditional mindset or even the most basic understanding of transcendence.

Oh, I see. Even though 90% of Americans I've ever conversed with blather on about baby Jesus, they're not your type of religious, and that's the root of the nation's problems. If people believed in 'transcendence', well, everyone in America would be 100% Germanic. I get it now. It all fits into place.


The people who claim to be Christian are often just as secular and culturally Marxist as their atheist countrymen. Just because people answer "I believe in God" or "religion is important to me" on a poll doesn't mean they have the faintest idea of what spirituality is about or behave in a religious way.

Back-pedal alert.


It seems to me that many modern people DO live just the way I described. Could you clarify what you mean by "nature become the author of our morality"? As far as I can see, there is no room for an absolute or objective morality on an atheistic world-view.

Nowhere did I mention absolute or objective morality. If we followed the pleasure principle, or, more accurately, the instinct principle, which nature equipped us with for clear evolutionary reasons, then we'd form racial groups, we'd despise ethnic others, we'd spend time among friends and family, we'd help our friends and family, we'd beget child after child and rear them in a warm, loving environment. This is what nature designed us to find most rewarding. If it's not what we do, then factors other than 'doing what feels good' are clearly at work.


Well I think an actual attempt at a scientific study is quite different from your own subjective opinion of what religiosity is linked to, which sounds to me to have been absorbed by the general culture around you (cultural Marxism) as you mentioned earlier. Either way, I wasn't using the fact that atheism and autism are linked to try to debunk atheist arguments.

Good, because that would have been a stupid thing to do.

CruxClaire
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 05:09 AM
I think atheism - the outright rejection of any possibility of there being super-intelligent life in or beyond the universe - isn't a logically sound attitude. Most atheist base their claims on the fact that our physical laws do not support it's existence, but these physical laws are far from perfect and only deal with one, very specific, part of reality. Our reality. There is a lot more that is hidden and no doubt governed by a different set of laws. Modern physics tells us that there are as many as 11 dimensions and space-time can be transformed and ripped. In fact, modern physics tell us that nothing is what it seems. Then there is the grander picture, what exists beyond? Trying to argue against the existence of super-intelligent life in the universe by using the laws that govern only a small subset of it's vastness is like trying to use chemistry to explain the evolution of language. It will take more, a lot more to convince a truly open-minded person like myself.

For this reason I am an agnostic. I don't know whether God exists or not, and to be quite frank, neither do I care.

Atheism is an active disbelief in the existence of a deity; however, it is not necessarily the rejection of the possibility of a deity's existence. I am an atheist, but I would be a fool to claim that the existence of a god is an absolute impossibility - that I know a deity is absent. One can be agnostic while still taking a position (atheist or theist) in that one can openly acknowledge one's ignorance of what is actually true while still gravitating towards one side of the belief spectrum. What we usually refer to as an "agnostic" is someone who is absolutely agnostic and nothing else - one who sits on the fence and refuses to take a position on the spectrum.

Also, your reference to "super-intelligent life" is somewhat unclear as a deity is generally thought of as an entity with supernatual powers. I've met atheists who believe that the universe holds or could hold beings with greater intellectual capabilities than humans. And I agree with them. But where do we draw the line between a being greater than a human and a deity to be worshiped? I would consider "super-intelligent life" distinct from the idea of a personal god.

Tom Schnadelbach
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 05:17 PM
In the Roman Pantheon, nature, Natura was a goddess. I don't know of any act of the Roman senate or some emperor that revoked her status so I suppose she still is a goddess. So if you believe in nature, it would seem illogical to say that you are an atheist, since nature appears to exist. She just might not be sentient. Then again, we don't know that either.

Define "god". The norse gods were not omniscient, not omnipotent, and not immortal. They were going to die on Ragnarok/Götterdämmerung. Baldur was killed by mistletoe.

Bernhard
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Define "god". The norse gods were not omniscient, not omnipotent, and not immortal. They were going to die on Ragnarok/Götterdämmerung. Baldur was killed by mistletoe.

They die every end of the year during Ragnarok, i.e. they don't actually die.;)

Tom Schnadelbach
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 07:23 PM
They die every end of the year during Ragnarok, i.e. they don't actually die.;)

Then I am not certain of what you are speaking. Perhaps I have misunderstood the meaning of Ragnarok. I can't make the o with a line through it on this keyboard. I believed it to be what we krauts call Götterdämmerung, in english "Twilight of the Gods".

I am not talking about some sort of heathen liturgical year, if that is what you are talking about, Bernhard. And I consider myself to be a germanic heathen. Maybe I'm wrong about that too, but this is what I believe...

There will be a time when the Aesir with the fallen warriors of Valhalla will do battle with the Giants and Hel and the Aesir will die and the world is destroyed.
Then the world is reborn.

It is not symbolic like the christian liturgical year when they pretend that the itinerant faith healer is being born in December, and is killed and raised again in the spring. This will be for real. Real carnage, real death. Real end and real rebirth.

Like I said, that is what I believe. Maybe I'm the only one who takes it literally.

Thank you, Bernhard. Until I thought about what I was writing, I did not know that I really believed it. But then most people have never really examined their beliefs.

Bernhard
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 08:06 PM
Personally I think that to recognize the myths as allegorical is key to understanding them. Although I wouldn't say that the year cycle is the only meaning of the myth of creation followed by Ragnarok, I think it's an important one. The functions of the Gods were primarily those that were visible in the natural world, which is only logical for the type of society that our ancestors had. The birth, death and rebirth of Balder (a sun god) for example is visible in the cycle of the seasons, the days getting longer, shorter and longer again.
That these myths were experienced in daily and annual life has not been documented explicitly, but many folk customs still remind us of this fact. Think of the hornblowing at the end of the year in the north-east of the Netherlands for example, symbolizing the announcement of "the final battle" by Heimdallr. Or the Heir of Wodan roaming around at the end of the year (Perchten and other variations), symbolising the Einherjar.
This specific interpretation of the myths as representing the natural order has been written down quite well by Géza von Neményi in his books, although some parts might be taken with a grain of salt. I can recommend it.
Immortality and absolute goodness as attributes of the Gods have furthermore been documented among other Indo-European peoples (the Celts and Graeco-Romans) despite the 'humanness' they seem to possess in their myths. It hasn't been written down in the case of the Germanic Gods though, but it seems very plausible.




It is not symbolic like the christian liturgical year when they pretend that the itinerant faith healer is being born in December, and is killed and raised again in the spring. This will be for real. Real carnage, real death. Real end and real rebirth.


The greatest difference is that Christians remember an historical event. While Jesus is believed to have been born in December, year 0, Balder is believed to be born every year, but symbolically. The myths represent realities which are true all the time and do not refer to a specific historically placed event.

Tom Schnadelbach
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 08:22 PM
...and absolute goodness as attributes of the Gods have furthermore been documented among other Indo-European peoples (the Celts and Graeco-Romans) despite the 'humanness' they seem to possess in their myths.


The graeco-roman gods cannot be said to have been absolutely good. For instance Zeus/Jupiter committed adultery numerous times. And Hera/Juno had a habit of getting even on the poor mortal women whom her husband had violated through no fault of their own.

But then the non indo-european Jehovah commanded the murder of infants.

Deities. You gotta love them. Or else.

Bernhard
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 08:28 PM
The graeco-roman gods cannot be said to have been absolutely good. For instance Zeus/Jupiter committed adultery numerous times. And Hera/Juno had a habit of getting even on the poor mortal women whom her husband had violated through no fault of their own.



"But why have they put in the myths stories of adultery, robbery, father-binding, and all the other absurdity? Is not that perhaps a thing worthy of admiration, done so that by means of the visible absurdity the soul may immediately feel that the words are veils and believe the truth to be a mystery?" (Sallustius, On the Gods and the World)

Sallustius was not the only one to explicitly state that the Gods are Good. Iamblichus in his De Mysterii even said that this was acknowledged by (what he called) the barbarians.

Tom Schnadelbach
Wednesday, April 4th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Those things that the gods are reputed to have done would cause their followers to be damned for all eternity if their followers followed their example.


I'm only a simple boy from the country, so I cannot follow Sallustius reasoning. I cannot see how talking about how evil the gods are proves that they are good.

Ishild
Sunday, August 12th, 2012, 12:37 PM
Suppose you REALLY BELIEVE that there is no God...
and you REALLY BELIEVE that there's no intelligent purpose or design to the universe...
So, therefore, you believe that nothing REALLY MATTERS. (belief, actions, etc...)



And that is your conclusion? Not believing in god does not you require you to be ultimate nihilist; Just having ethics of your own and giving your own life meaning outside a religion or a belief.


Then, why would you go through the trouble arguing about it?
UNLESS...
you REALLY DON'T BELIEVE what you claim?

Every Atheist who argues therefore has to be a fake.

:thumbup

If you don't get the video, or what's written above then think a little bit more about it.



Because believers often oppress people who want to think outside the scheme.
Because it's irrational and this world lacks common sense.
Because some of the greatest monstrosities were committed in the name of God.
Because in the name of religion intellectual development had been stopped for centuries - intellectual slavery, when philosophy became slave to the Church, when anything in discord with preachings was 'Satanic' and inquisition's raids.

These are all well-known facts and as such do not require any belief as you claim.


Atheists believe there is no meaning or purpose to anything.

NO. This is what YOU believe about atheists.
Not all atheists are same mind you, but you seem to claim that is the case.

Feyn
Wednesday, August 15th, 2012, 07:36 PM
I have to agree with Ishild here on quite a few things, perhaps even taking it a bit further then she did ! That opening statement is simply ridiculous !!! One prejudice is followed by the next., and it is painfully obvious, that he has never really talked with atheists about this, which i would call an indispensable basic prerequisite for making his argument. Since he failed to do that, it is no wonder his argument goes so laughably wrong. He doesnt even begin to have any idea what actual atheists think about his ideas :thumbdown
Of course atheists have a sense in life, they give it one, instead of following one made by someone else. Let us take right the start :


QUOTE :"Suppose you REALLY BELIEVE that there is no God...
and you REALLY BELIEVE that there's no intelligent purpose or design to the universe...
So, therefore, you believe that nothing REALLY MATTERS. (belief, actions, etc...)
Then, why would you go through the trouble arguing about it? " END OF QUOTE



How does he get from no intelligent design to nothing really matters ??? That simply makes no sense, and it doesnt get much better later on ! Most atheists I know argue because they are fed up with religion trying to rule their life, which is quite a good reason as far as i am concerned (and since they believe they only have this life you can imagine how much it pisses them of if someone tries to interfere with how they live it)!!!

I think that already debunks most of his argument. AGAIN atheists believe they have only this one life, so they try to make it count, and make the best out of it. One could ask the other way around : if you believe in paradise, why don´t you live your life as risky as possible, hoping to die sooner rather then later ??? Technically it is not suicide, so you are fine on that angle too. If you guys really believed whole heartedly in paradise you would all do that (well, perhaps excluding those with kids) !!!