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Ediruc
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 09:37 AM
The thought just came to me. Question in the Title.

I don't believe I have ever seen a Swiss member on these boards. What exactly is your guys' stance on the Swiss?

Herefugol
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 10:02 AM
I've seen at least one Swiss member. I think the great majority of Skadi would see Switzerland similar to Belgium: a predominantly Germanic albeit multilingual nation. About 64% of the population speaks German (or over 70% if you disregard the immigrants without citizenship), and it can be assumed that the population is ethnically similar to the Austrians.

Thusnelda
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 12:47 PM
Well, we had some Swiss members in the past but they´re inactive now. The Skadi stance on Switzerland is that we consider the culturally and linguistically German part of Switzerland (=Deutschschweiz) as Germanic. :)

The large orange area on following map shows the Deutschschweiz, the Germanic part of Switzerland:

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/83/Sprachen_CH_2000.png

Most German-Swiss people belong to the Alemannic tribe like the Badenser and Swabians in Germany.

Herefugol
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Most German-Swiss people belong to the Alemannic tribe like the Badenser and Swabians in Germany.

There are also influences of Hallstatt and La Tène culture that Switzerland has in common with Austria.

Juthunge
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 01:40 PM
the Badenser
:D

I agree with the rest of your post.
Additionally I have deep respect for the Swiss domestic policies and especially their policy on immigration.

wittwer
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 02:22 PM
Well... if the DeutschSwiss aren't Germanic, then neither are the Austrians or Germans... ;)

Æmeric
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 07:10 PM
There use to be a Swiss moderator, Erhard (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=24907)

Elessar
Sunday, December 19th, 2010, 07:13 PM
I personally like the Swiss.
Swiss dialect if my favorite among the German speaking realm (even though I can't really understand it :D)
And to that extent Tyrolean as well.

Beautiful country, beautiful old cities, rich history, highest standard of living, ban on minarets, 1st strike deportation policy.
It seems as though they're making the most strides in Europe.

Thorburn
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 05:37 AM
The thought just came to me. Question in the Title.

I don't believe I have ever seen a Swiss member on these boards. What exactly is your guys' stance on the Swiss? The Members List lists 12 members who have "Switzerland" in their profile. This is not really accurate, though, because the "Country" profile option is, firstly, not compulsory. Secondly, nationalists from Switzerland might choose another country but Switzerland (such as "Germany"), either because they wish to express their Great German perspective or due to reasons of privacy/security considerations respectively.

But in general I tend to agree with you that members from Switzerland appear to be underrepresented (same goes for the Danes, as far as I have observed). This might have something to do with the history of Switzerland and the general climate or attitude which prevails there.

Switzerland has been for more than 600 years independent from the German Reich, and its regionalist, isolationist and neutral perspectives have been re-enforced over dozens of generations. That's really a very, very long time, in particular, as these policies also proved to be very successful and beneficial to the Swiss.

Even back in the late 19th and early 20th century, the Swiss never developed an all-German consciousness. Movements in Switzerland which wished to join the German Reich never got support from more than 1-2 percent of the population. It's interesting that this view was even quite mutual: Even Hitler who was convinced that "the same blood belongs into one Reich" never seriously considered to incorporate the Germans in Switzerland. In the 30's when most of Europe had been turning rampantly nationalist or even fascist, the Swiss still carried on with their bourgeois and basis-democratic attitude.

Recently, a rift seems to have developed in Switzerland, though: between the conservative Germans on one hand who wish to remain neutral, independent and to preserve the traditional status quo; and the progressive Frenchmen on the other who wish to become Europeans and to join the EU.

In the referendum, whether Switzerland should join the EEA, for example, it was the Germans in Switzerland who prevented it, while there was a majority for it in the French cantons. It was the same picture in the referendum whether Switzerland should join the United Nations: the Germans voted with "Nay," the French voted with "Yes." Unfortunately, in this case the opposing German majority was too small to counter the overwhelming support for the UN coming from the French cantons.

Huginn ok Muninn
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 06:31 AM
Most German-Swiss people belong to the Alemannic tribe like the Badenser and Swabians in Germany.

Quite right.. they are ethnically closer to Swabians than Austrians, and indeed the German part of Switzerland was part of the duchy of Swabia before Switzerland existed.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd_1911/shepherd-c-062-063.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Alamannien.svg/1000px-Alamannien.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Alemannic-Dialects-Map-English.png

I find the attitude of the Swiss Germans refreshing... very traditional Germanic wisdom embracing local rule and conservative values. There are analogs to this attitude in the States Rights conservatism in the Southern US and old Germanic tribes with their fierce independence that only really gave way to the necessity of being unified in the 1800s.

Herefugol
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 06:37 AM
Quite right.. they are ethnically closer to Swabians than Austrians, and indeed the German part of Switzerland was part of the duchy of Swabia before Switzerland existed.

Interesting, thanks for that post. :) I assumed that they'd be ethnically similar due to proximity, but it appears the Swiss are ethnically closer to the Swabians. I suppose that map is mostly of politics, though, and doesn't really give us an especially accurate genetic representation.

Juthunge
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 12:14 PM
Interesting, thanks for that post. :) I assumed that they'd be ethnically similar due to proximity, but it appears the Swiss are ethnically closer to the Swabians. I suppose that map is mostly of politics, though, and doesn't really give us an especially accurate genetic representation.

Linguistically and ethnically the Swiss are definitely closer to the Swabians than to the Austrians. In the early Middle Ages groups of Alamannic settlers came from southwestern Germany to Switzerland, adding to the pre-Germanic Celto-Romanic population.

In Austria both the language and population is rather Bavarian derived, which of course also has a large Alamannic component in itself, together with many smaller Germanic and Celto-Romanic elements, to which later on added a Slavic element about whose importance I don't know much.
An exception to this is the easternmost region of Austria, Vorarlberg. There an Alamannic element is predominant, both through ancient and medieval migration.

Donnerschall
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 12:54 PM
The Dutch (Frisians) and the Swiss (German) are the two tribes with most similarities, to me.
Both pronounce the "G" glottiral, both are cheese producers, clever business men, both were prone to be influenced by Zwingli and Calvyn.
Does any one know if they are related, or maybe have the same base stock in their ancestory from before the big european migration?

Sigurd
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 02:44 PM
Most German-Swiss people belong to the Alemannic tribe like the Badenser and Swabians in Germany.

Dialect-wise in fact all Swiss speak Alemannic dialects with the exception of Samnaun, for a long time a functional enclave which was originally Rumantsch-speaking, but which dropped that idiom in favour of the Südbairisch dialect in neighbouring Tyrol. It is for this reason that the lexicon from Samnaun is usually also analysed when speaking about Tyrolese dialects. :)


In the referendum, whether Switzerland should join the EEA, for example, it was the Germans in Switzerland who prevented it, while there was a majority for it in the French cantons. It was the same picture in the referendum whether Switzerland should join the United Nations: the Germans voted with "Nay," the French voted with "Yes."

Not to forget that the good population eastward (i.e. this side) of the famous Röstigraben voted overwhelmingly in favour of the minaret ban, whilst the dwellers in the Romandie voted mixed with a slight leaning against the minaret ban. ;)

What it is about Swiss members and their tendency to all-too-rarely become Regulars that stay on for longer periods of time I don't know. Which means that until we get a prolific Swiss member again you'll have to do with me and my 1/16 of Swiss-German blood. :P

Thorburn
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 03:15 PM
Quite right.. they are ethnically closer to Swabians than Austrians, and indeed the German part of Switzerland was part of the duchy of Swabia before Switzerland existed. Quite right.

To do everyone justice, I'd reword this sentence, though, and say that the Germans in Switzerland, being Alemanni, have more in common with Swabians, being equally Alemanni, than with Bavarians, being ... Bavarians :D ... or rather Baiuvarii. While most Germans living within the borders of today's Austria are equally Baiuvarii, there is an Alemannic or Swabian minority in Western Austria, living predominantly in the province of Vorarlberg.

After WW1, in 1919, the Swabians in Vorarlberg held a referendum whether they would like to join Switzerland or remain with Austria. More than 80% of the people opted for Switzerland.

http://www.vol.at/chronik/ViewPage/viewpic.aspx?viewtype=artikel&id=121&idpic=137&typePic=1

The attempts to form a union with Switzerland were eventually vetoed by the Allies (like the effort to found a German province Swabia composed of Vorarlberg and the Swabian parts of Baden, Wurttemberg and Bavaria). As so often in international politics, the right of peoples to self-determination proved to be a farce, applicable only if it suits the powerful.

Sigurd
Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 03:32 PM
After WW1, in 1919, the Swabians in Vorarlberg held a referendum whether they would like to join Switzerland or remain with Austria. More than 80% of the people opted for Switzerland.

... but as it so turns out to be, no one really wants the Vorarlbergians, the Swiss neither, for which reason they still term the little province of Vorarlberg as "Kanton Übrig" (Canton Left-over) in some areas of Switzerland. :P

Wittmann
Thursday, December 23rd, 2010, 09:09 AM
I'm Swiss German, I just put German as my ancestry because I believe that Germany should include the lands between the North Italian Border, East of Paris, and West of the Belarussian Border. Also, my family only went from Germany to Switzerland in the 1400s, and then to the United States.

Thusnelda
Thursday, December 23rd, 2010, 03:56 PM
:D

I agree with the rest of your post.
What´s the matter with "Badenser"? ;) Isn´t this the proper term for Badener people? "Badenser Bub", etc. :D Well, I know there´s some rivalry between Schwaben and Baden but is "Badenser" a derogatory Swabian term for the people of Baden?

German-Swiss, Badenser and Swabians belong to the same Alemannic tribe. Love each other! :thumbup

Sigurd
Thursday, December 23rd, 2010, 04:05 PM
Well, I know there´s some rivalry between Schwaben and Baden but is "Badenser" a derogatory Swabian term for the people of Baden?

It sort of is, as the correct term these days is Badener, and the Baden folk don't like it if they're called Badenser. It used to be a correct term derived from Latin badensis but has been deemed as pejorative and derogatory ever since the end of the Großherzugtum Baden. ;)

One of the most striking examples of how Badenser is no longer an acceptable term to most folks from Baden was shown in 1954 when a member of the BW Landtag from Heilbronn used the term and was fired upon by a North-Badensian MP who mentioned he'll in return call him a "Heil-bronnser" (hail-pisser) in future. :P


German-Swiss, Badenser and Swabians belong to the same Alemannic tribe. Love each other!

Host recht, olls "Gelbfiaßler". :P

Aeternitas
Monday, December 27th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Out of 26 Swiss cantons, only 5 don't have German as an official language: Ticino, Vaud, Neuchâtel, Geneva and Jura. The German presence in Switzerland is strong and relevant enough for Skadi to dedicate some space to this country. Skadi acknowledges and focuses on the German part of Switzerland and welcomes Swiss-Germans. Issues pertinent to it/them can be discussed in the section https://forums.skadi.net/images/flags/DieDeutschenLaender.gif The German Countries (http://forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=376), which is dedicated to other German(-speaking) countries (so also Austria, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg).

Skadi members hold various opinions as to the identity of Switzerland. Some believe it has gained enough history and right to call itself a nation, others believe it is an artificial nation and should disband and/or that the Swiss Germans should join Germany. See this poll for instance, Is Switzerland a Nation? Are the Swiss an Ethnic Group? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=109827) Skadi itself has no particular stance regarding the above. It's a discussion platform, where everyone is free to hold their opinion.

My personal experience has been that the Swiss-Germans are more conservative while the French-Swiss are more "progressive", as Thorburn said. However, I haven't met Swiss-Germans that would enthusiastically join a German Reich. Swiss-Germans seem to be strongly regionalist. Swiss-Germans speak their own dialects in everyday life. Federalism has cultivated strong regional identities there, at times unfortunately in opposition to an all-German consciousness. Here are some threads on the German-Swiss relations:
Do the Swiss Speak Standard German? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=123812&highlight=swiss)
Anti-German Sentiment In Switzerland (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=126434&highlight=switzerland%2A)
Büsingen (German Enclave Within Switzerland) (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=102104&highlight=switzerland%2A)

Juthunge
Monday, December 27th, 2010, 01:34 PM
What´s the matter with "Badenser"? ;) Isn´t this the proper term for Badener people? "Badenser Bub", etc. :D Well, I know there´s some rivalry between Schwaben and Baden but is "Badenser" a derogatory Swabian term for the people of Baden?

German-Swiss, Badenser and Swabians belong to the same Alemannic tribe. Love each other! :thumbup

"Badenser" is very insulting for Badener people, only "Gelbfüßler" might be worse. :D
Curiously enough, the latter term was actually once primarily used for Swabians but now solely refers to Badener people.