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KarlVanderhagen
Friday, August 27th, 2010, 07:23 PM
'Sensational' Discovery
Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,714235,00.html#ref=nlint)

Der Spiegel
27 August 2010

Melisande
Friday, April 1st, 2011, 08:18 PM
Very cool link, I'm surprised there wasn't more comment. The map and the building of the wall and gate all delinate the cultural groups of the time (and also show how close together the four groups were). At the time, no doubt, they saw each other as more than competitors - as enemies. And yet, we know their upper classes interacted, practiced negotiation, and diplomacy - and traded daughters as wives.

The map itself gives a snapshot of a cultural process long ago that helped define the modern world (and also reveals a corner of the Germanic world, bordering on the Slavic and Danish world - which at that time, would have been three worlds clashing). The Frisians may or may not have felt more kinship with the Saxons at that time (I need to know more), but it's fascinating to see how the Frisians are creeping up on the Danish western seaports - closing them off from access to the North Sea, and how the Danes reacted by securing a land route).

I know the Danes are considered "Germanic" here on Skadi, I'd like to know more about how the Saxons viewed the Frisians and the Danes at the time that wall and gate were built. The archaeological data are a gift to cultural imagination - great find.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 07:09 AM
:-OWow, what disrespect! This is an ancient national monument of the Danish folk and of course, Germany could not resist demolishing it. They couldn't ride and march across it in the days of old, but had to face the superior Danish fleet, but now, with heavy machinery, it is no longer the obstacle it was. Oh, why not? Germany had their way with Denmark and took this memento for keepsake. What natural border does Denmark have to provide any advantage of security? Then, of course, Denmark also no longer controls traffic through the country's waterways either. (Thanks, Sweden...) A completely prostrate country!:thumbdown

Juthunge
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 06:19 PM
Your paranoid Germanophobia is showing again. I pity you, if you can't distinguish between an archaelogical excavation and "demolishing". How are we supposed to know anything about our ancestors otherwise, if we aren't even allowed to carefully dig up a mere section of an ancient monument?

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 09:25 PM
Just look at the picture. I'm sure that real estate developers and the transportation department would love to level the whole thing. How about a six lane highway on each side of Jutland and a bunch of housing subdivisions to rebury the memory of Hedeby? After all, Berlin is under no obligation to preserve the heritage of the Danes--that's conveniently the problem of an impotent Copenhagen. You know, there are parallels with the Oder-Neisse line and how Poland has a field day while Berlin is incapacitated from preserving the integrity of defenseless German land.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 09:35 PM
Very cool link, I'm surprised there wasn't more comment. The map and the building of the wall and gate all delinate the cultural groups of the time (and also show how close together the four groups were). At the time, no doubt, they saw each other as more than competitors - as enemies. And yet, we know their upper classes interacted, practiced negotiation, and diplomacy - and traded daughters as wives.

The map itself gives a snapshot of a cultural process long ago that helped define the modern world (and also reveals a corner of the Germanic world, bordering on the Slavic and Danish world - which at that time, would have been three worlds clashing). The Frisians may or may not have felt more kinship with the Saxons at that time (I need to know more), but it's fascinating to see how the Frisians are creeping up on the Danish western seaports - closing them off from access to the North Sea, and how the Danes reacted by securing a land route).

I know the Danes are considered "Germanic" here on Skadi, I'd like to know more about how the Saxons viewed the Frisians and the Danes at the time that wall and gate were built. The archaeological data are a gift to cultural imagination - great find.

Yes, all very poignant observations. One must wonder how Ingaevones must have felt at the mercy of the Roman Empire moving in from the South and forcing them out, while the Danes took what remained that could be denied those invaders. Jutland was basically a protectorate of Denmark when it was based in Zealand and Skane rather than Zealand and Jutland as it has become. It is very easy to worry about the fate of Jutland, since Skane was ripped away. All that would be left in this scenario, are Zealand and Bornholm; maybe the Faroe Islands, but not for long, as I'm sure Greenland would immediately depart.

Juthunge
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 11:35 PM
Just look at the picture.
The little excavator is there to carry away the dirt that has been already filtered, not to dig away the actual wall. The latter is done basically entirely by hand, as in about any regular excavation. If you actually click on the picture you can see it being done in the follow up pictures.


I'm sure that real estate developers and the transportation department would love to level the whole thing. How about a six lane highway on each side of Jutland and a bunch of housing subdivisions to rebury the memory of Hedeby?That's unfortunately the threat for any historical monument in a time in which nothing counts but money or convenience of transportation. But it has zero to do with it being a thousand year old remnant of Danes. Just look at the road tunnel they want to build right under Stonehenge.

Besides the fact, that the Danewerk is probably at least as much a cultural heritage for the local Germans, among whose ancestors are probably in no small part assimilated Danes, than it is for living Danes.


After all, Berlin is under no obligation to preserve the heritage of the Danes--that's conveniently the problem of an impotent Copenhagen.Nonsense. It's both a conservation area and under monumental protection since the 50's. The excavation was actually, and expectedly, a joint Dano-German project.


You know, there are parallels with the Oder-Neisse line and how Poland has a field day while Berlin is incapacitated from preserving the integrity of defenseless German land.To insinuate, that either Danish people or Danish monuments were treated by Germans anywhere comparably to the way Germans and German cultural heritages were treated by Poles, is downright insulting.
At the end of WWII, even a plan to turn the Danewerk into a defensive line against a potential Allied invasion via Denmark, was stopped at its very beginning because the site was considered to be too important as a shared Germanic heritage. So much about that.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, January 4th, 2018, 11:53 PM
Interesting.

What you wrote about Stonehenge sounds bloody ridiculous, not to say that you had not been made aware of it, just what you described.

Still, unless a blood occupies soil, it belongs to those who do.

Juthunge
Friday, January 5th, 2018, 12:14 AM
What you wrote about Stonehenge sounds bloody ridiculous, not to say that you had not been made aware of it, just what you described.
I'm not sure what that sentence means but:

'ROAD REVOLUTION' What is the Stonehenge Tunnel, when will it be built, where does the A303 go and has the planned route been altered? (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2596862/stonehenge-tunnel-a303/)

Stonehenge tunnel route moved by 50 metres after protests (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/11/stonehenge-road-tunnel-given-go-ahead-30-years-controversy/)

The existing road is actually not much better than the tunnel, to be honest. Pretty horrible, that this was ever allowed.


Still, unless a blood occupies soil, it belongs to those who do.Yeah, so basically mostly to the local mixture of Germans and Danes which has lived there for centuries.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, January 5th, 2018, 01:18 AM
But what you said is not much different than the Polish border. There was both fucking and fighting back and forth for millennia. As they say: "All's fair in love and war". Germans invaded and partitioned Jutland all on their own accord, with the Austrians muddying the issue. There were no more pure motives on their part than between Poland and Russia with designs on German land. Why wouldn't Germany ask Denmark for help to invade and overthrow Rome in Austria? The bias is obvious--both Bismarck and Hitler were disingenuous. Germanic, in their mind, was merely hochdeutsch. What efforts did either put into advancing plattdeutsch among them who spoke it? Prussia ought to have been the perfect vehicle for its manifestation among all Germans and not scorned as a peasant tongue by the aristocracy.

The fact is, that Germans in Jutland are the equivalent of Austrians in Bavaria, the only problem being that Denmark lacked a figure such as Bismarck to lead a Kulturkampf against Bismarck's Kulturkampf directed at Denmark, since the Oldenborg dynasty was as German as the Hanoverians. Then again, both tried to do what they could, with very little leverage. There was no Edward III or even George V. Fifth columnists undermining and usurping government on the border is a big problem where Mexicans are concerned in America. Some Poles think Merkel is their ace in the hole for the Slavic lobby in the EU and thus, NE of the Elbe.

I mean, do what you want with other people's sovereignty and everything. You certainly are entitled to, right? After all, Poland is using your innocent precedent. You left out the part where Germany invaded and occupied the whole of Denmark in WWII, so what you mentioned about a Germanic archaeological treasure being put on a pedestal actually amounted to bollocks. Let me guess: Danish sovereignty was already compromised by World Jewry, so Germany was supposedly liberating the hapless Nordic Aryan Ubermensch (from their own ignorance). Any pretext for Germanic-on-Germanic violence is justifiable (unless directed at Germany), but criticism of such two-faced betrayal and insincerity is an Orwellian Thoughtcrime of EU political correctness scope.

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There was a 1985 film starring Malcolm McDowell about Arthur and Merlin, in which he wakes up beneath Stonehenge. I hope that Stonehenge thing and what I described potentially happening with the Danevirke doesn't happen to Offa's Dyke or the Hadrianic and Antonine Walls.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, July 4th, 2018, 06:18 PM
It would be interesting if Schleswig-Holstein were to be reformed as a dependency on par with Aaland and the Faeroes, called Angeln. It can be German-speaking and owned by Denmark, or Danish-speaking and owned by Germany. The capital ought to be in Hedeby. When Danes and Saxons partitioned Mercia, it was the Insular version of what was happening on the Continent. Angles ought to be united and not merely belonging to one faction or another. That's the root of any kind of confusion as to folkishness in England, no different than the ambiguity in the base of Jutland.