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Kaenor
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 06:13 AM
I'm still learning about different racial types and had a discussion with someone about this.

If you're East Baltic, does that mean you have to be mixed with Lapp (however far back) or some sort of Mongoloid influence? I thought that was the basis of the subrace. That they were Nordids/Cromagnids who still showed signs of mixing with those people.

Or can East Baltids be totally unmixed with these groups?

Thank you.

Leonhardt
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 03:32 PM
Saami have a mix that is similar to Finns, and Finns are genetically much closer to Europe than Mongols. They are different tribes (groups).
Some people say the Saami have some Iberian DNA, and point to the Finn migration as coming from the Ural mountains.

Nordic (Old Germanic) traits that radiate outward from Sweden are also present to a lesser degree in the north (Finland).
Slavic traits are more prominent to the south towards Lithuania.

This link shows genetic levels of European Y-chromosome DNA with a description for various types.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


This link describes East Baltics as short and wide, with heavy bone structures. I think they are describing Balto-Slavs.
http://www.white-history.com/earlson/hfk/reoehchap2e.htm


The term East Baltic race was coined by the anthropologist Rolf Nordenstreng, but was popularised by the race theorist Hans F. K. Günther. It was characterised as "short, short-headed, broad-faced, with heavy, massive under-jaw, chin not prominent, flat, rather broad, short nose with low bridge; stiff, light (ash-blond) hair; light (grey or whitish blue) eyes, standing out; light skin with a grey undertone."[citation needed] In Günther's work the term formed part of a hierarchical "Nordicist" racial model, of which Günther was a principal exponent. Madison Grant theorised that the East Baltic race was a blend of Nordics and Alpines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Baltic_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

I don't have time to read this one, but only give the conclusion.

The closeness of the Finnish Ugric, Slav and Germanic
populations according to anthropological and genetical
data
F. Nazarova

Thus, based on the anthropogenetic data we suppose
that the Caucasoids today-the Slavs, Finns and
Germanic populations are from the same ancestral
population inhabiting a region of Southern Siberia in the
middle of the Paleolithic as that of northern Mongoloids
and American Indians.
http://www.academicjournals.org/JEBR/PDF/Pdf2009/Dec/Nazarova.pdf

NorthWestEuropean
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 04:06 PM
East Baltids can, according to Bertil Lundman, be divided into western and eastern subtypes (Tavastid and Savolaxid). Lundman wrote that Tavastids were taller, more brachycephalic and had horizontal eyefolds, while Savolaxids were shorter, less brachycephalic and had somewhat slanted eyefolds. I never saw him mention anything about Savolaxids being "non-European".

Both Lundman and Herman Lundborg posted this Savolaxid East Baltid (http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/rastyper-15.jpg) as one of their examples, without mentioning anything about Asian/Lappoid admixture.

Translated from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", originally written in Swedish:


Northern Europe is seen from an anthropological view a unity, although you might argue, if you racially here should count eastern Finland and the coastal areas of the southeast Baltics who forms transitional areas. Also the aforementioned west coast of Norway and to some extent the Danish islands (at least Fyen), are pretty deviating (the racial stocks of the Lapps are something totally separate).


Having Sweden in the center, the Nordic peoples (even the Estonians) makes, at least to some extent, a unit from a racial perspective. Most outliers are the Finns, especially the Eastern Finns (only the Lapps can racially never claim to belong to the Nordic stockgroup). We may have most racial kinship with northwestern Germany and the Netherlands (north of Rhine), and some North English and Eastern Scottish groups. The latter are also to a large extent the direct descendants of Danish and even more Norwegian Vikings - or the Germans from the North Sea coast!

Modern DNA studies shows that Finns (both Western and Eastern) cluster with their neighbours, somewhat distanced though. Eastern Finns are closer to North Russians (isn't seen in this study though), while Western Finns are closer to Eastern Swedes (svear). This study also shows the amount of "Asianess" into the Northern European populations.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=inf o:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519.s002

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=inf o:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519.s006

Caesar
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 04:24 PM
What is between difference West balts, East Balts, Balts ?

NorthWestEuropean
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 05:28 PM
What is between difference West balts, East Balts, Balts ?

Using Agrippa taxonomy:

West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

(This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

(Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)

Caesar
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 05:49 PM
Using Agrippa taxonomy:

West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

(This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

(Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)

Interesting. :)

What about Alpine ? do they have a little of asian ?

mjolner
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 08:10 PM
I'm confused by the answers. Could someone answer in a Yes-or-No fashion as to whether East Baltic generally have Mongoloid admixtures?



(This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

(Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)

Does that mean that East Baltid's generally have Lapp/Saami genetics? Or just facial features similar to lapps ?

Caesar
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 08:34 PM
I'm confused by the answers. Could someone answer in a Yes-or-No fashion as to whether East Baltic generally have Mongoloid admixtures?



Does that mean that East Baltid's generally have Lapp/Saami genetics? Or just facial features similar to lapps ?

I dont think East Baltid have lapp/saami genetic but they have facial feature that look similiar and have distant mongol genetic because of their cheekbone and eye.

Agrippa
Sunday, May 23rd, 2010, 08:44 PM
Using Agrippa taxonomy:

West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

(This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

(Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)

Actually I consider Westbaltid being brachycephalised too, the others are just Cromagnid.

One can say that like Nordisation, Dinarisation, Alpinisation - Baltisation (results in Osteuropids) is a trend, a fairly young one in comparison which can be individually and population wise stronger or weaker.

Basically it goes from a robust-coarse Cromagnid type in the East, towards brachycephalisation and slight reduction (Westbaltid), more reduction, shorter proportions, more infantilised and less masculine (Baltid) - and ending up in the North East with Mongoliform traits, strong Borealisation of Mongoliform or Mongoloid character (short extremities, sparse beard and body hair, flatter face, concave snubnose etc.)

If comparing with "classic Europid traits", those decrease from Westbaltid to Baltid to Eastbaltid - Eastbaltid being the Mongoloid influenced or at least Mongoliform "transitional type".

I assume that it has, or the core group had, "Uralic"-Mongoloid admixture. This is also evident in the Finns, Samis and North Eastern Europe in general, which deviates the strongest from the rest of Europe.

Also the difference inside of Finland parallels the racial division with the more Nordoid South and more Osteuropid North. The South is closer to the rest of Europe than the North genetically.

Obviously, its also climate related and you can say, if going from warm-temperate to extreme cold:

Gracilmediterranid - Atlantomediterranid - Nordid - Dalofaelid - Westbaltid - Baltid - Eastbaltid - Lappid - Westsibirid - Tungo-Sibirid - Eskimid.

Typically, the warm adapted forms are more leptomorphic, the colder it becomes, the shorter became the extremities and the more latteral build they are, until they change from Europid to a Mongolid standard in proportions.

Eastbaltid and Lappid (core type, most Samis are mixed nowadays) are transitional forms on the still Europoid side, Westsibirid is the transitional form on the Mongoloid side.

Either of them are less typical for the respective race and show conflicting tendencies.

Westbaltid and Baltid proper is part-reduced and Borealised too, also has a certain tendencies (Baltid) for less beard and body hair etc., but is still clearly in the range of purely Europid derivatives.

Eastbaltids and the Lappid core type are not, they are transitional.

Today, genetics and race type are often conflicting, because in Finland a purely Nordid phenotype, racial type, can have nevertheless yDNA N and autosomal Mongoloid DNA, whereas many extremely Mongoliform Eastbaltids might carry the "Aryan markers" of R1a1a...

So we can detect it in populations and if adding 1 + 1, its clear that some kind of foreign element entered Europe - or was present there already, who knows for sure, which deviates strongly from the rest of the Europid spectrum.

Its not dominant, but its present and noticable, genetically and racially.

Also compare with this autosomal study:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPs-uhAduI/AAAAAAAABbg/0PneXHNX97k/s1600-h/journal.pone.0005472.g002.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05/genetic-structure-in-europeans-nelis-et.html

The rest of Europe clusters closely together in a geographically reasonable manner, Finland being the outsider with the South being closer to the rest of Europe and - typologically ("surprise, surprise") more classic Europid (Nordid, Cromagnid etc.) too.

This just proves that yDNA came into Europe not with empty hands so to say...

Racially Westbaltid and Baltid is in the Europid spectrum without noticeable Mongoliform/Mongoloid tendencies, Eastbaltid and Lappid (core type) are transitional with such tendencies, but still on the Europoid side.

Kaenor
Monday, May 24th, 2010, 01:05 AM
:tired2::tired2: I'm still not sure if I understand. Hehe.

I'm so new to this and all the terms are confusing! :)

So basically: East Baltics resemble Lapps/Sami but they aren't actually mixed with them. Is that right?

Thanks for the replies everyone. ;)

Agrippa
Monday, May 24th, 2010, 08:22 PM
:tired2::tired2: I'm still not sure if I understand. Hehe.

I'm so new to this and all the terms are confusing! :)

So basically: East Baltics resemble Lapps/Sami but they aren't actually mixed with them. Is that right?

Thanks for the replies everyone. ;)

In the past I often said that Eastbaltids are basically Baltids with Lappoid admixture or tendencies. Well, thats essentially not wrong, but it might not be the full truth neither.

My current opinion is like that: "Uralic" MongolOIDs (so not necessary fully MongolID, note the suffix) elements entered North Eastern Europe at some time, their skulls were found around the lake Ladoga f.e.

These Mongoloids mixed with local, rather archaic and coarse Cromagnoids, especially in the Comb Ceramic culture.

From this mixture comes most likely the yDNA haplogroup N and the autosomal deviation of North Eastern Europe.

One result were the Lappids, the other the Eastbaltids.

Eastbaltid like traits can appear if you mix a Nordeuropid/Cromagnoid with Lappid, so thats one option, but rather I think its a more ancient admixture which produced both admixed variants which carry the foreign elements on in their phenotype, Lappid in the far North, Eastbaltid around the White Sea region, later spread elsewhere to Europe by Finno-Ugrians and especially Slavicised Finno-Ugrian people - Slavs.

It's quite interesting if you look at this map for the prehistoric cultures:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/European_Late_Neolithic.gif

The Comb Ceramic is really to a large degree overlapping with the distribution of N in Europe:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/e/bencragun/ben42/Y%20Haplogroups%20of%20Europe%20001.jpg

Thats no coincidence I suppose, though its unimportant in practise, because the genetic, autosomal and racial influences are there anyway and relate to the "Uralic" admixture which produced both Lappids and Eastbaltids.

Leonhardt
Friday, May 28th, 2010, 06:14 AM
Analysis of the genetic distance of classic markers showed the Sami to have no close relatives in any populations, but a closer affinity to neighbouring populations (Cavelli-Sforza 1994, Niskanen 2002). The Sami are not more closely related to Siberian and Mongol populations than other European populations, even their Scandinavian neighbours (Niskanen 2002), which contrasts to the historically held view that the Sami are of Siberian-Asiatic origin.
Sami Y chromosomes haplogroup distribution is similar to the Finns and Estonians with haplogroup N3, I1a and R1a as major haplogroups .
Haplogroup I1a is common among all neighbouring populations (Dupuy 2005, Karlsson 2006, Lappalainen 2006, Tambets 2004). Haplogroup N3a is common among the Finns, while haplogroup R1a is common among all the neighbours except the Finns (Lappalainen 2006). Haplogroup R1a in Sami is mostly seen in the Swedish Sami and Kola Sami populations (Tambets 2004). However, an analysis of the microsatellite substructure of haplogroup I1a and N3a among the East Sami reveals that Finns and Estonians are an unlikely source of recent contributions (Raitio 2001), while the Jokkmokk Saami in Sweden have similar structure as among Swedes and Finns for haplogroup I1a and N3 (Karlsson 2006).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami

It is theorized that the Sami are distantly related to Berbers. However, they have mixed with their neighbors also.

The genetic lineage of the Sami is unique, and may reflect an early history of geographic isolation, genetic drift, and genetic bottle-necking. The uniqueness of the Sami gene pool has made it one of the most extensively studied genetic population in the world. The most frequent Sami MtDNA (female) haplotype is U5b1, with type V also common. There is an intriguing study that suggests a connection with the Sami to the Berber people of northern Africa.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_history

Agrippa
Friday, May 28th, 2010, 09:12 PM
They might be distantly related to Berberids insofar, as they were among early European humans, hunters and gatherers, which followed the retreating ice and animals North.

There they became mixed with the Uralic N carriers, like the Finns. These N carriers seem to have been deviating in a Mongoloid direction at least, if not being fully developed Mongolids.