PDA

View Full Version : Can Norse Mythology Be Reinterpreted for the Future?



tirannis
Sunday, April 18th, 2010, 09:03 PM
Can Norse mythology be reinterpreted for the future?

i put this in the philosophy forums because its about reinterpreting ancient norse culture and religion, or maybe understanding it in a new way.

I don’t buy the abrahamic religions, but the original interpretations of norse/Germanic myth/‘religion’ seams to pose a problem in the modern thinkers mind. As a druid I find there are many correlations between druidry and the norse myths, I can reinterpret druidry easily enough so I am wondering if norse mythology can offer us a way to understand spirituality and replace the abrahamic religions?

Timberwolf
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 10:55 PM
I'm a strong supporter of the reconstruction of a solely European religion as an alternative to the Abrahamic religions, but Norse mythology, by itself, comes off to modern day people as too mystical and hard to grasp. When I see people putting on Norse ceremonies and worshiping the old gods I'm proud to see people taking an interest but it just comes off like hippies wanting to worship nature, or nerdy kids playing dungeons and dragons. I hate to say that but it just doesn't seem as organized or as professionally presented as Christianity. There's a couple problems which include:

No clear and concise work to base faith off of
Sure, there is the poetic and prose eddas, but the writing is archaic and comes off more as entertainment rather than a book of standards to live your life by. Even the Havamal, which is the only book that really suggests moral guidelines, isn't relevant to today's times, runs around in circles repeating itself, and doesn't say much that is interesting.

The panethon creates a monolithic learning curve
The norse panethon has so many gods, goddesses, and giants that the average person would give up in frustration trying to remember them all and their importance. Even I have trouble from time to time and I've been going over it for years.

The gods have very little interaction with humans
The Old Testament is probably the greatest religious book ever written. It is the central reason for the Jews tight knit ethnocentrism lasting all these years. It is a book in which the Creator has a distinct and personal relationship with one race, whom he singles out as his "chosen people" and makes multiple "covenants" with them which are basically promises that they will flourish and prosper as long as they keep his laws. Stories of Jewish oppression at the hands of the Egyptians and Gods direct involvement in ending that oppression is the cornerstone of the Jewish faith.

Watch the film "The Prince of Egypt" and you will see how powerful that imagery and message can be. It'll give you goosebumps.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6VTH5SWDFq4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6VTH5SWDFq4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>/\ Example of the Creator having a personal relationship with a human, calling a single race his people, and promising them wonderful things.

Norse mythology has nothing like that. All of the stories center around the exploits of the Gods and their dealings with other gods and giants, not humans. The stories of Germanic heroes at least pertain to humans, but they are merely entertaining and don't give a lot of advice on how to live, nor do they give the impression that the Gods really care about us.

Another problem is that Norse mythology, as a folkish religion, would only appeal to Germanic people. It would leave people wondering why Celtic, Roman, Slavic, or Greek mythology wasn't chosen as the "true" religion, and in the case of the Greeks and it's very detailed and large record of documentation, they'd have a strong case.

I think a merger of the European mythologies as well as new material needs to be created which does a better job of establishing a holy relationship between the Creator(/s) and our people. Furthermore, it must be explained that our people, not Jews, were chosen as the divine people. I'm actually working on something that I hope will address these problems.

Méldmir
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 11:07 PM
...

Good post, but why do you propose a pan-European religion? Why can't Germanics have their religion, Celts their own, Greeks their own etc. I really don't see why they'd have to be merged, we would only lose on that. And even though there are many similarities between Greek, Roman, Norse mythologies, we can't know for sure that the followers of them had the same ideals.

Timberwolf
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 11:19 PM
Good post, but why do you propose a pan-European religion? Why can't Germanics have their religion, Celts their own, Greeks their own etc. I really don't see why they'd have to be merged, we would only lose on that. And even though there are many similarities between Greek, Roman, Norse mythologies, we can't know for sure that the followers of them had the same ideals.

They can, I just don't think that it will be as effective as creating a single banner in which all of our European brothers and sisters can be a part of. If all we want to do is make little sects that preserve the old ways, then we already have that, you can find kindreds in every major city in the Western world. But if we're going to offer an alternative to Christianity, a religion written only for Jews in the Old Testament, and preaches the slave morality through the New Testament, we have to have something all of our people can embrace. I consider Germanic people to be my immediate family, but consider all the other European peoples to be my extended family. The whole purpose of a religion, I feel, is to bond us all together, helps us understand why we are specialize and why we must isolate ourselves from those that aren't of our kind.

Méldmir
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 11:24 PM
They can, I just don't think that it will be as effective as creating a single banner in which all of our European brothers and sisters can be a part of. If all we want to do is make little sects that preserve the old ways, then we already have that, you can find kindreds in every major city in the Western world. But if we're going to offer an alternative to Christianity, a religion written only for Jews in the Old Testament, and preaches the slave morality through the New Testament, we have to have something all of our people can embrace. I consider Germanic people to be my immediate family, but consider all the other European peoples to be my extended family. The whole purpose of a religion, I feel, is to bond us all together, helps us understand why we are specialize and why we must isolate ourselves from those that aren't of our kind.

Oh, well it's here you and I differ. I don't consider someone my kin just because they happen to be from the continent of Europe. Germanics and other N-W Europeans are the only people I can consider my kin, "Europe" does not mean much to me. I believe Europe only exists due to Christendom, and replacing it by a pan-European "Heathendom" would be odd.

Timberwolf
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 11:27 PM
I believe Europe only exists due to Christendom, and replacing it by a pan-European "Heathendom" would be odd.

Can you elaborate on this?

Also, what do you think about Christianity's role today in disarming Germanics from the evils of miscegenation and intermarrying people of different races?

Méldmir
Wednesday, April 21st, 2010, 11:34 PM
Can you elaborate on this?

Also, what do you think about Christianity's role today in disarming Germanics from the evils of miscegenation and intermarrying people of different races?

Well, what I meant was, that European countries have during the last 1000 years created strong bonds to each other, politically and culturally. However, I believe the reason these bonds were created was not due to a natural/racial connection between the peoples of various parts of Europe, instead I believe it was due to the strong force of the Church that forcefully bonded Europe together as an entity. And then having this entity, created by Christianity, simply replaced by a pan-European Heathen equalient, may not be the way I personally would want to see it.

Christianity today, at least the Christianity in Germanic countries, is very liberal, and will not stop anything the negative changes that have happened to us. The Protestant Church is a strong ally to the establishments and governments of Germanic countries.

tirannis
Thursday, April 22nd, 2010, 12:04 AM
Timberwolf


Norse mythology, by itself, comes off to modern day people as too mystical and hard to grasp.

Personally I think that’s a good thing, abrahamic religions try to be literal and do everything they can against the mysteries and those who do try to understand them.

I agree it shouldn’t be hippy tree hugging, I have had some very strong words about these things in druidic circles, the old religions were very much realists in how they deal with worldly problems.


the average person would give up in frustration trying to remember them all and their importance.

True, but ancients tended to worship local deities, or joined cults of particular ones. There is/was no need to know it all.


Stories of Jewish oppression at the hands of the Egyptians and Gods direct involvement in ending that oppression is the cornerstone of the Jewish faith.

I have been talking to people about this and the common view is that the exodus never happened.

I don’t know norse myths so well, but I gather the basic religion is similar to druidry. The celtic myths tell us that the spirit transmigrates worlds, and can utilise the same essences [awens] as the gods do. From what I can tell the norse religion tells warriors to be fierce in battle and not to fear death I.e. they tell of the ‘disposability of self‘, and that honour is greater than suffering and dying dishonourable deaths. You have a different outlook on life if the body is disposable.


Another problem is that Norse mythology, as a folkish religion, would only appeal to Germanic people. It would leave people wondering why Celtic, Roman, Slavic, or Greek mythology wasn't chosen as the "true" religion, and in the case of the Greeks and it's very detailed and large record of documentation, they'd have a strong case.

I don’t understand? Celts and Germanics are very similar esp the further back you go. In fact there was a circular temple found in southern germany that wouldn’t be out of place in England. In s Oxfordshire there is waylands smithy, which is a saxon name for the temple denoted to blacksmiths, it would seam our ancestors had no problem making such correlations.


Méldmir


why do you propose a pan-European religion?

I agree in part with what you say, I do think there are similarities in the old barbarian cultures, and they stretch from Lithuania to Ireland, maybe further. The greeks and romans had a different way of seeing religion, so perhaps belongs in a different sphere.

I think its an important distinction, the classical ‘civilisations’ thought of us as barbarians, but that because we didn’t like living the way they do, we are more rural and earthly, less urban etc.

Timberwolf
Thursday, April 22nd, 2010, 01:35 AM
And then having this entity, created by Christianity, simply replaced by a pan-European Heathen equalient, may not be the way I personally would want to see it.

I agree that Christianity's ideas of universalism had its use in the past, but now it's used to create "strong bonds" between people of all ethnic backgrounds, and that's why I feel it's lost it's use.

Sects like Positive Christianity and Christian Identity are better, and I have no problem with Christians as long as they hold views compatible with the survival of our people. I just don't understand how Christians can rationalize the belief with themselves. The Old Testament is clearly a book written for Jews by Jews. God makes no covenants with our people. And the New Testament is centered around a Jewish Messiah, who, even if you argue his Jewishness, was clearly not so much as White, let alone Germanic.

It's a powerful religion, I just don't see it serving us anymore. We need something rooted in our homeland. It might not be a Pan-European religion but it shouldn't be something "borrowed" from non-Europeans.

Also, which groups of Europeans do you not view as being your fellow brethren. Italians? Greeks? Spaniards? Russians?

Timberwolf
Thursday, April 22nd, 2010, 02:00 AM
TimberwolfPersonally I think that’s a good thing, abrahamic religions try to be literal and do everything they can against the mysteries and those who do try to understand them.

I think the "mysteries" will only ever appeal to a niche group of people. It was much easier to get away with supernatural religions in the days when science wasn't as developed as it is now. These days, everything is put under the microscope, so the less fantasty-like the religion is, the more likely people will not brush it off instantly as "nonsense". I think the presentation needs to be modernized with the more eccentric aspects being introduced slowly.


True, but ancients tended to worship local deities, or joined cults of particular ones. There is/was no need to know it all.

Go up to someone and ask if they would like to join a cult. I'm sure you understand that they would be taken aback. The word "cult" has too many negative connotations, just like the word "nazi", and so shouldn't be used if you're trying to awaken the masses. In small sects it's obviously fine though. I think we need one central belief and from that things can branch off just like Christianity.


I have been talking to people about this and the common view is that the exodus never happened.

Yea, that's why I called it a story, but it didn't need to be true, enough people believed it was, and still do, that it has great power in Jewish circles. The idea that God singled out your people gives one a huge sense of ethnic pride. It certainly helped the Jews, they basically rule the world now.


I don’t know norse myths so well, but I gather the basic religion is similar to druidry.

It's basically nature worship. All of the gods represent something, usually aspects of nature or life. It's like deified naturalism. There's also a strong heroic ethic and, in some interpretations, folkish views.


The celtic myths tell us that the spirit transmigrates worlds, and can utilise the same essences [awens] as the gods do.

Never heard of that, but it's an attractive idea.


I don’t understand? Celts and Germanics are very similar esp the further back you go. In fact there was a circular temple found in southern germany that wouldn’t be out of place in England. In s Oxfordshire there is waylands smithy, which is a saxon name for the temple denoted to blacksmiths, it would seam our ancestors had no problem making such correlations.

It depends where your views fall. Many people here believe only in Germanic preservation and unity. They don't see people outside of the Germanic circles as their blood (folk). I do. I believe Germanic is our subrace but we belong to a much larger family of relatives. I consider all Europeans as being part of this group and would love to see a religion come along that could unite us all. As an American I've see things first hand. I've always been able to feel right at home with non-Germanics of European descent but as soon as you step outside of that you instantly find incompatibility. Asians, and ancient Egyptians, are the only non-European peoples who produced worthwhile societies that I can find at least somewhat tolerable.


I agree in part with what you say, I do think there are similarities in the old barbarian cultures, and they stretch from Lithuania to Ireland, maybe further. The greeks and romans had a different way of seeing religion, so perhaps belongs in a different sphere.

Greek and Roman mythology isn't that different from what I know. To me, there are two contrasts, slave religions like Christianity, and Heroic religions. All of the religions native to Europe fall into the latter. The Greek myths are, in my opinion, far better prose than the Norse. The Ring of the Niebeljungs, while a wonderful story, pales in comparison to Homers Illiad and the Odyssey. But as European descendants ALL of these tales belong to us. I don't see why we would exclude them when they were written by our ancestors. I don't see an Italian, or a Spaniard, or someone from Portugal embracing Norse mythology. It's not about them, it's about Germanics, it needs to be about all of our kind as one. That's why Jews succeed, even though there are Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews they both worship the same text and God.


I think its an important distinction, the classical ‘civilisations’ thought of us as barbarians, but that because we didn’t like living the way they do, we are more rural and earthly, less urban etc.

I think the "barbarism" gave the Norse a better understanding and appreciate for Nature. I think the classical civilizations had a better understand a human beings. Why not have the best of both worlds?

Méldmir
Thursday, April 22nd, 2010, 11:13 AM
I agree that Christianity's ideas of universalism had its use in the past, but now it's used to create "strong bonds" between people of all ethnic backgrounds, and that's why I feel it's lost it's use.

Sects like Positive Christianity and Christian Identity are better, and I have no problem with Christians as long as they hold views compatible with the survival of our people. I just don't understand how Christians can rationalize the belief with themselves. The Old Testament is clearly a book written for Jews by Jews. God makes no covenants with our people. And the New Testament is centered around a Jewish Messiah, who, even if you argue his Jewishness, was clearly not so much as White, let alone Germanic.

It's a powerful religion, I just don't see it serving us anymore. We need something rooted in our homeland. It might not be a Pan-European religion but it shouldn't be something "borrowed" from non-Europeans.


Personally I would prefer an atheist society with Heathen traditions such as Yule, Easter etc. I don't think that people in the future will be strong believers in God/Gods. And I would like much more if Greeks had their own Heathen traditions, based on their culture and language, and we had ours, since I prefer diversity in that way. But the religion in my society would only be secular/cultural.


Also, which groups of Europeans do you not view as being your fellow brethren. Italians? Greeks? Spaniards? Russians?

Well, I don't really see them as that. Perhaps some fair people of northernmost Italy. I am of course aware that I am closer related to Russians than to Asians, but somewhere one have to draw the line of what you consider brethren. It's not that I hate them, I just see them as being a bit to different than those I would see as closely related people.

tirannis
Thursday, April 22nd, 2010, 10:12 PM
I don't think that people in the future will be strong believers in God/Gods.

I agree, but equally I don’t want religion to have so much say, hence I hope both atheists and heathens keep up the fight.

Jäger
Friday, April 23rd, 2010, 11:25 AM
No clear and concise work to base faith off of
Never had one to begin with, and never needed one, and that's by design.
Our gods are fueled by our knowledge and our creative energy, if we loose any of it our gods will die, sadly that's exactly what is happening since more then 1000 years.


The panethon creates a monolithic learning curve
Something to be proud of, the purpose of the whole idea is passing knowledge, a small learning curve would indicate little knowledge.


The gods have very little interaction with humans
The gods are symbols for humans.


The Old Testament is probably the greatest religious book ever written. It is the central reason for the Jews tight knit ethnocentrism lasting all these years.
The Jews were confronted with the threat of the destruction of their race through foreign influences much earlier in time than we have been.
Our ideas of life never needed such an immune system, and this has proven to be fatal, indeed, we need to add it for the future.


Watch the film "The Prince of Egypt" and you will see how powerful that imagery and message can be. It'll give you goosebumps.
Ehm, no.
We have a problem with Semitic-monotheistic indoctrination, even if we reject such beliefs following our reason later in life, the years of spiritual degeneration during our early years are most likely not reversible. E.g. not even a genius like Hitler managed to do so.
That's why there is a paramount need to ban baptism of infants or small children.


The stories of Germanic heroes at least pertain to humans, but they are merely entertaining and don't give a lot of advice on how to live, nor do they give the impression that the Gods really care about us.
Germanics try to live like gods, not just like a common human.


Another problem is that Norse mythology, as a folkish religion, would only appeal to Germanic people. It would leave people wondering why Celtic, Roman, Slavic, or Greek mythology wasn't chosen as the "true" religion, and in the case of the Greeks and it's very detailed and large record of documentation, they'd have a strong case.
We make religion, it is not about the past, but about the future and the present, Germanic mythology is our anchor of continuation, certainly not our sole inspiration.

Bernhard
Friday, April 23rd, 2010, 01:11 PM
The gods are symbols for humans.

The antropomorphic gods are symbols for Gods. In this way they are examples for humans, yes, but not symbols.

Lothar
Friday, April 23rd, 2010, 03:09 PM
You might ask yourself why an Ambassador for Jesus would want to help people get back to their Religious roots.
And it would be a good question so let me answer.
My lord Jesus, is seeking his followers out of the great mass of history, he says he will come back one day to judge the world and end this system of things.
Many through history have felt they were living in the end times and that Jesus would come back in their lifetime because of the signs of the times.

Obviously they were all mistaken as they miss the most crucial detail that it would be like the times of the flood, or the times of Sodom and Gomorra when so few believers in God would be left, also called a remnant.

I as an Ambassador for Jesus I will help in anyway to prolong the end of this worlds system, to help glean out more people for Jesus.

So back to helping you:

You have to ask yourself what makes a religion successful.
Let’s start by looking at an ANCIENT LATVIAN RELIGION
I feel the success of this religion was by having a strong, yet positive moral code.


VALUES AND CODES OF CONDUCT

For the ancient Latvians and the modern-day Dievturi, the meaning and purpose of life is to live in harmony with the repeating rhythms of Nature (this includes all the gods — even Dievs himself!) and other members of society. This means that a harmonious life is self-justifying — there is no meaning beyond life itself.

The attitude toward life is positive and optimistic (until fairly recently!). One strives for the possession of virtue(s), not the avoidance of sin(s). In fact, the concept of sin is foreign to the dainas.

Life's most basic purpose is to be good. This unwritten imperative implies that if everyone were good, there would be no room for evil or bad luck. All of the virtues guiding one's conduct can be broken down into three categories: (i) the virtues of life and Dievs, (ii) the basic self-ethics or virtues for oneself and (iii) the communal ethics, or the basic virtues as they relate to others.

The two virtues in the first category admonish: Be good! and Be reverential and full of awe for Dievs! The entire code of ethics for the ancient Latvians was positive in tone. One was basically taught what to do and what to be, not what not to do and be.

The four fundamental virtues for self-enhancement and behavior are: Be wise! Be diligent/active! Be beautiful, clean and orderly! and Be cheerful! Wisdom includes the awareness of good things and values, an understanding of goals and purposes. And only wisdom can determine proper behavior toward self, others and Dievs. The virtue of work leads to success both in the mental and material world. Many a daina states that Dievs will not enter a homestead that is not orderly, clean and cheerful.

The last category of virtues are virtues of compatibility: Be full of love! Be easy to live with! Be generous! and Be just! These four virtues provided directives for the Latvians in their interactions with relatives, neighbors, strangers and other clans/nations.

Evil in the Christian sense does not exist as a functional concept. One simply speaks of bad fortune and not living with the dictates of the above virtues. The source of bad things happening is caused by man himself. Nature and the world, including all the calamities, is basically neutral — it simply is. Man determines what to do with it, for better or worse.
http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_3_06.htm

As I’ve mentioned in a previous post formalized Christianity had little influence on this culture, because this code developed character that could rival any Christian denomination of the time.

How about the concept of saints, people who died defending their belief in your gods
This has been an inspiration to many a Christian, as today is Saint George day he would be a timely example of this concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George

So I’ve covered a strong moral code, people dieing to defend your faith.
This may be a good start for you

I would mention Frith But I can’t in good conscience agree with this part of it.
As I feel this could lead to putting up with all kinds of bad behavior that could destroy the benefits of a civilization.


One can read again and again in the Icelandic Sagas of a worthless, trouble-making person whose actions bring disgrace and disaster on the whole kindred, but who, nevertheless, is supported, helped and defended by other members of the kindred committe d to the thew of frith no matter what the consequences. Groenbech notes the "absolute character of frith, its freedom from all reservation." (Vol. I, p. 36) This absolute, uncompromising character of kindred-oriented frith actually contributed significantly to the pursuit of feuds and strife within the larger community, at the same time that it reduced strife within the kindred, inside the pale of frith. Frith was nothing if not partisan: focused on security and stability of the kindred, it had no application to those individuals and groups who lay outside the boundaries when it came to a conflict of interest between the two. Nor could any notion of absolute, unbiased justice make a dent in it: defending one’s kindred was always right, no matter how wrong their actions were. Frith was the paramount thew, taking precedence over all others.
http://www.friggasweb.org/frith.html


Granted you can always take the good and leave out the bad.
I hope I’ve been a help to you, I would much rather live in a society as an ambassador for Jesus, governed by the above mentioned code then in an Islamic one. So I do wish you the best for the sake of us all.

Jäger
Friday, April 23rd, 2010, 06:57 PM
The antropomorphic gods are symbols for Gods. In this way they are examples for humans, yes, but not symbols.
The gods are humans, they are from a different linage, yet human.
We know this because of stories of fertile bastards :).

Bernhard
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 08:34 AM
The gods are humans, they are from a different linage, yet human.
We know this because of stories of fertile bastards :).

The Gods created humans, just like they created everything else. "It was at the command of our Gods that all things were created and came forth" said Chlodovech before his conversion. That the myths mention people who are of partly divine descent, indicates a spiritual connection (Wodan gave us Önd) and probably shows us that we can be among the Gods again and become half-gods, for in myths it's the hero who descends from the Gods. I'd say that in stead of the Gods being human, humans posess something godly, which the Gods gave them. Greco-Roman philosophers called this the genius.

"Who lives with the gods? Those who are always satisfied with what has been assigned for them and who obey the promptings of their Genius; a portion of Himself that God has given to every human being to be their guide and guardian, their intelligence and understanding." - Marcus Aurelius -

Drottin
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 10:51 AM
I think not, I'm sure. Norse belief is interpreted by Christians and are interpreted totally wrong. Norse faith is a free faith, which you could use symbols and models as you want. It is therefore traitors who turned to Christianity (former vikings) at all was allowed to live and stay in Scandinavia. It was fine for the Vikings that they (the Christian "Vikings") believed in something new. This led to the downfall of the Norse faith...

Christian "Vikings" used of course this terrible religion to take power. They killed all those who are not turned away from the Old Norse belief. An example: The story of "Raud den Rame" (owner of the biggest Viking ship ever) that refused to adopt Christianity, he was killed by Olav who put a poisonous snake in his mouth. Alongside was a priest and applauded ..

Christianity and other Jewish / Arab religions is based on the fear and coercion. Children are baptized and forced into the religion and those who do not believe should be killed. The Christian god is one of the world's greatest mass murderers, it is even described in their books.

The Norse faith was very strong. No Christian Crusade was able to take over Scandinavia. It took, among other things, 1000 years before Norway was Christianized. Norway was Christianized because of "Viking" which had allowed himself to convert to Christianity. Traitors.

Norse faith is superior. But not as an instrument of power. Christianity is a religion for weaklings, criminals and power hungry. Example: Christmas ( correct name is: Jul) is the Norse tradition, not Christian, that in itself says something about this arab/jewish "religion"

Jäger
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 12:26 PM
The Gods created humans, just like they created everything else.
Eh no, exactly not! They used wood to carve (not humans but) the people of Midgard; wood they didn't create but which was already there.
In contrast we do know that humans can create other humans, and we do know that we can form their development (carve them), at least anyone with a child knows ;).
This is the wisdom of old, not some Semitic idea of beings not bound to the laws of nature. This is nothing else than superstition.


That the myths mention people who are of partly divine descent, indicates a spiritual connection (Wodan gave us Önd) ...
Yes, something which indicates blood relation.


I'd say that in stead of the Gods being human, humans posess something godly, which the Gods gave them. Greco-Roman philosophers called this the genius.
The Gods are symbols, ideals and stories of fate, as long as we tell their stories, we develop the godly in us.

Bernhard
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 04:20 PM
Eh no, exactly not! They used wood to carve (not humans but) the people of Midgard; wood they didn't create but which was already there.

Yes, it was already there, because the Gods made trees out of Ymir's hair:) (Grímnismál 40). Wood was thus created by the Gods.


In contrast we do know that humans can create other humans, and we do know that we can form their development (carve them), at least anyone with a child knows ;).
This is the wisdom of old, not some Semitic idea of beings not bound to the laws of nature. This is nothing else than superstition.

I don't see how what I said excludes that wisdom.
The Gods are nature, from them all natural law of the material world is derived; a very Germanic concept.:)



Yes, something which indicates blood relation.

The Gods are incorporeal.



The Gods are symbols, ideals and stories of fate, as long as we tell their stories, we develop the godly in us.

If the word 'mythical' or 'antropomorphic' is put in front of 'Gods', I completely agree.

tirannis
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 07:14 PM
Jäger

"No clear and concise work to base faith off of"
>

Never had one to begin with, and never needed one, and that's by design.

Absolutely.


Our gods are fuelled by our knowledge and our creative energy, if we loose any of it our gods will die

I don’t want to sound messed up, but my initiation into druidry included meeting some gods in visions, so I don’t think they go away because we stop fuelling their existence. I just think of them as like people, mostly they were at one time, and we wouldn’t stop existing if people stopped believing in us right! :)

Drottin


Norse faith is a free faith, which you could use symbols and models as you want.

This is a very good point! :thumbup People say the Vikings [as like the celts/druids] were evil, but that was societal. They lived in a very real and harsh world with enemies all around, they interpreted their gods as brave and giving them strength to get past obstacles. So in short you get gods teaching you the wisdoms of bravery, it is up to the warriors how they then interpret that. My guess is that the Vikings as most others around them, needed to be feared and acted accordingly. As times change there is no reason why we cannot interpret things differently.

Personally I have quite a Spartan view on life, as I think the Vikings did. Life isn’t pretty but we allow the weak to live and the ill to suffer ignoble deaths, nature demands a strong gene pool and we would be fools to think ourselves above it.

Here’s a little poem I wrote on the matter, inspired by nietzsche

As we are not born there is no death,
As we are not born, there is no rebirth,
nor reincarnations of us and of things.
As we are not born, I dispose of death,
As we are not born, I dispose of disease.

As we are the ripe fruit, I despise old age,
As we are the ripe fruit, I despise the lacking,
Thus I despise inability where it bears no fruit.

As I am the lion, I remove what I lack,
As I am the fruit of the dragon, I know all thy facts.
I bare thee my bosom, that though shall endure,
My purpose to find you on every shore.

I am the hill that I climb, blind to its horizon,
I am the horizon, and am irreverent to my task.
I am the wind behind thee, can you not feel me breathe,
I am the blood in your veins, the life that you feel.

I am the energy of life

Jäger
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 07:44 PM
Yes, it was already there, because the Gods made trees out of Ymir's hair:) (Grímnismál 40). Wood was thus created by the Gods.
The trees of Midgard. Before that the King of the Goths, Geirröds son, reigned over a world full of wood and stone. Agnar, a hero, not a god.

Drottin
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 08:33 PM
One of history's many lies is the violence of the Vikings. They traded and traveled around Europe without problems until Christianity arrived. Then came the attacks. But they were stopped in Denmark, the remains of the fortifications are still visible ..

The Vikings were not born behind a dustbin. They realized that they had to attack to defend themselves against attacks. Although they were fewer. They attack the enemy where it was weakest. And they were then (by the Christians) described as violent and blood thirsty .. One of the many many lies in the history of the world...

As an apropos: The Vikings called jesus, for white Christian. The cowardly god.

tirannis
Saturday, April 24th, 2010, 08:59 PM
I agree drottin. :thumbup

OnePercent
Tuesday, April 27th, 2010, 05:35 AM
I think that the lack of standardization across heathen belief systems (germanic or otherwise) is actually the major strength behind modern heathenism. Many people, myself included, are skeptical at the level of uniformity and and the unquestionable dogma that is present in Christianity. That kind of structure lends itself toward a philosophical hierarchy, in which some people are "closer" to god than the rest based upon their understanding of the dogma. In turn, the dogma becomes more important than anything else and eventually wars are fought because one person's interpretation of the dogma doesn't jibe with another's.

The point is that the standardization of religion is among the things I despise most about the judaic religions. I feel that people should be free to worship the Gods in anyway they see fit, and that they should be free to know the Gods in a unique and personal way. With heathenism the strength is not in the dogma but in the shared belief in sanctity of our ancestors and the Gods that have been with our folk from time immemorial to the current date.

For this reason I believe that modern heathenism is actually ideal for our time and age. As a result of the internet and the torrential flow of information it provides people have become very skeptical of authority. Monolithic religions like Christianity are quickly becoming outdated. On the other hand, the old heathen religions, which were never institutionalized or made "official" even in the good old days, are better adapted because they encourage individual belief systems centered around a common ancestoral bond. People who care about their ancestry are immediately drawn to the study of the old Gods, and everyone who does is adding to the spread of our beliefs.

Unlike the judaic religions, Heathenism was never built on books and uniformity, the strength of heathenism in the good old days was that it was flexible and based upon common knowledge, not dogmatic text. Heathenism never had a clear statement of beliefs like the bible because it never needed it, the worship of the old Gods was based upon the natural belief in the importance of our ancestory. The Gods will always present themself to us on an individual basis anyway, the important thing is that we focus upon our ethnic connection. I think that any attempt to "cannonize" the religion can only weaken it in the long run.

tirannis
Tuesday, April 27th, 2010, 04:40 PM
OnePercent

I totally agree with all you said. :thumbup


I feel that people should be free to worship the Gods in anyway they see fit, and that they should be free to know the Gods in a unique and personal way.

The only problem is where ones beliefs lead to human sacrifice, even though there is scant evidence and it only seamed to happen in times of great peril, it is used by abrahanics as a weapon against us. Still, they may have got away with that during the early conversions, but we all know they burned many more people than the pagans did. What is also forgotten is that most often sacrifices were of criminals, I doubt if many people would object to getting rid of paedophiles in this way. Law is way to weak these days and society way to liberal [good in some ways bad in other ways], there is just too much PC bullshit.

Bernhard
Tuesday, April 27th, 2010, 04:43 PM
The trees of Midgard. Before that the King of the Goths, Geirröds son, reigned over a world full of wood and stone. Agnar, a hero, not a god.

Why do you assume that this was before the creation of Midgard?

Jäger
Sunday, May 2nd, 2010, 01:52 PM
Why do you assume that this was before the creation of Midgard?
Because he already lived in a world of fire, thus before the blaze was canceled during the creation of Midgard.
There is of course a case for a cyclic repetition, yet, it just reinforces my analogy.
Next to Yimir came down a sword of fire, Surtr, this is astonishingly in tight correlation of how science is theorizing the creation of our earth (i.e. hot early earth).

Bernhard
Thursday, May 13th, 2010, 09:15 AM
Because he already lived in a world of fire, thus before the blaze was canceled during the creation of Midgard.
There is of course a case for a cyclic repetition, yet, it just reinforces my analogy.
Next to Yimir came down a sword of fire, Surtr, this is astonishingly in tight correlation of how science is theorizing the creation of our earth (i.e. hot early earth).

Which world of fire do you mean exactly (and where is it mentioned)? Because when Midgard is on fire, it is before the creation of a new world and after the creation of an old world. I don't see how he can be placed outside this circle. In the Grimnismál everything shows the story as happening 'after' (due to the cyclic thought I'd say ontologically on an lower level) the creation of Midgard. Wodan also speaks of the creation in the past tense.

Drottin
Thursday, May 13th, 2010, 11:04 AM
There is much to clean up when it comes to the Norse faith. Paganism, odinist, mythology, and more are words created by Christians, Jews and Arabs. They do not fit.

Viking Age society was regulated by law and order through the system. Every free man was standing under the law and it was also true of the chief and king. The community was steeped in religion, but the Vikings did not have a separate word for religion, but used the word Sidr, which means custom or practice.

Norse "faith" had elements of decentralization in them. It did not have a professional and centralized clergy as in the Christian church. Where all power belonged to kings avd popes.

The moral codex of society, was not linked directly to the divine faith. The social system was based on an unwritten honoursystem. Right and wrong, gender and sexual morality, daily life and holidays, in all conditions was the free man's actions and judged by the concept of honor.

In Christianity, the priests were male, and deprived the common man and women the right to interpret the religion itself.


The new Christian cultural values collides on a number of fields with Norse faith, for example were Norse pride ideal pushed out when the Christian ideal of humility convenience was introduced. The Christian commandment to turn the other cheek to his brother, worked as a call to the shameful cowardice in the Viking society.

Hrodnand
Thursday, May 13th, 2010, 12:33 PM
There is much to clean up when it comes to the Norse faith. Paganism, odinist, mythology, and more are words created by Christians, Jews and Arabs. They do not fit.

Exactly, it is an issue that is apparently skipped by many when they try to approach ancient germanic culture. It should be noted that most attempts which try or tried to reconstruct the "old germanic faith" lack that very specific objectivity which would help people to understand the old germanic worldview first. The "old germanic faith" is not a technology system that can be borrowed by anyone but originally it was the very product of a worldview that was free of foreign influences and mysticism. It is the worldview first that should be understood properly to be able to rightly interpret the culture and the "faith" further.




Viking Age society was regulated by law and order through the system. Every free man was standing under the law and it was also true of the chief and king. The community was steeped in religion, but the Vikings did not have a separate word for religion, but used the word Sidr, which means custom or practice.


Yes, to most pre-christian germanic societies the community life was the next and most important and a "religious practice" was only occasionally and rarely performed on an individual level. People who turned to the gods above the community were viewed dubiously and were treated partly as traitors. The concept of an individual religious practice in heathenism was/is a christian (i.e a foreign) influence.





The moral codex of society, was not linked directly to the divine faith. The social system was based on an unwritten honoursystem. Right and wrong, gender and sexual morality, daily life and holidays, in all conditions was the free man's actions and judged by the concept of honor.

Yes and I think this is the most important aspect that is worth to be taken in account when one tries to understand in its right context the culture of our ancient ancestors.




The new Christian cultural values collides on a number of fields with Norse faith, for example were Norse pride ideal pushed out when the Christian ideal of humility convenience was introduced.

Also the attitude towards the divine has been radically distorted and influenced by christianity and not only. To the old heathen any close or personal relationship with the gods was almost impossible or something that is too far to be reached. It was one of christianity's main tool of conversion to grant a close relationship with Jesus, with the possibility of an individual prayer. However, this was all alien and unknown to the common heathen man.


So yes we should definitely reinterpret the whole concept of heathenism and old germanic culture, including mythology. There are multiple layers of foreign influence and misinterpretation which need to be deconstructed if we don't want our native culture to become similar with any of the new age fantasy movements.

Timberwolf
Friday, May 14th, 2010, 03:49 AM
A religion should form a sacred bond amongst the people (Folk) for when all political means of persuading our people to stick together fails. It shouldn't just exist so people can worship trees and wear Mjolnirs because they look cool. If we've learned anything from the Jews it is the power a religion can have at unity a people and keeping them committed to each other. The idea that Odin breathed his breathe of life, his essence, into us and only us is a very powerful concept.

My earlier ideas of merging the European mythologies into one was poorly worded. It seems obvious to me that European men and women constructed their views of the gods as symbolic anthropomorphized representations of the forces of Nature. The Jotuns clearly represent chaos while the Aesir represent order. They intermarry because Nature and life is filled with the duality or chaos vs order, as opposed to the Abrahamic good vs evil. Without the constant threat of the Jotun the Gods would grow weak and fat, just like the constant threat of natural and societal forces can make us grow stronger as well. Nothing could be more Germanic than Nietzsche's famous quote, "that which does not kill you only makes you stronger".

European mythology forms a stark contrast to Abrahamic traditions, especially Christianity, which preaches a slave morality. What the Norse and Greeks had in common was a worldview of heroism. Both were honor bound. Instead of teaching to "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", and "resist not evil", they encouraged people to stand and fight. I can pick up any European mythic text and feel a deep connection with it, knowing it was conceived from the minds of our race, inspired by the divine. If I venture outside of that terrain I find myself scratching my head in confusion or rejecting it outright. Nietzsche also pointed this out in his works.

I believe the same European logic that inspired the Norse can be found in Greek mythology. One way of explaining this in theological terms would be to say that Greek mythology is how the forces we call "gods" revealed themselves to the Greeks. Zeus is merely the Greek name for the same force that inspired Odin. So while we don't have to directly follow a Greek religion, when we come across the Greek mythos, we shouldn't brush it off as "nonsense", or "just myths". A much better description would be to say it is divinely inspired. The "Iliad and the Odyssey" is just as worthy a story as Siegfried the dragon slayer and the Ring of the Nibelung. They both depict Master morality Heroes that inspire and invigorate the European soul. It would be similar to how Muslims, who don't believe Jesus was the son of God, still consider him a holy prophet.

I think in the end people should follow what they want and what they feel the deepest connection to. But I don't see what's wrong with recognizing the divinity found in other European religious beliefs and teaching our children about them if we want.