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Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 07:29 PM
So, the Keltic side brought their culture and everything, through the invasions, correct? Fir Bolgs, Milesians, Danaan, Partholonians, Nemedians etc.? Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians? On the SNPA map, there also seems to be that Keltics invaded from Britain. Why are those "Keltics" called Celtic when it is clear that the Atlantid(Q Celtic?) areas are traditionally the ones with the Celtic culture? I see the Welsh and Basques sharing their own Paleo-Atlantid(P Celtic?) form too.

This makes little sense.

Euclides
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Are the Redheads Irish/Scottish related to IE-Keltic , Brunn type or Viking invasors?

Euclides
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 08:40 PM
So, the Keltic side brought their culture and everything, through the invasions, correct? Fir Bolgs, Milesians, Danaan, Partholonians, Nemedians etc.? Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians? On the SNPA map, there also seems to be that Keltics invaded from Britain. Why are those "Keltics" called Celtic when it is clear that the Atlantid(Q Celtic?) areas are traditionally the ones with the Celtic culture? I see the Welsh and Basques sharing their own Paleo-Atlantid(P Celtic?) form too.

This makes little sense.


In the map you posted , we see Welsh , basques and east irish related to a a ''paleo-med '' type ( UP-med? ).This map also correlates the Västmanland type ( Borreby ) with Germans ( Faelid , borreby, Brunn) and Western Irish (brunn ). I am especulating if aren´t this two populations ( ''Paleo-meds'' and ''Paleo-Nords'') both UP derived , differing in pigmentation.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Are the Redheads Irish/Scottish related to IE-Keltic , Brunn type or Viking invasors?I am betting that the Bruenn Irish are the Fomorians related to Troender Norse and Anglo-Saxon Friesens.

Euclides
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 11:10 PM
I am betting that the Bruenn Irish are the Fomorians related to Troender Norse and Anglo-Saxon Friesens.


could be

Glenlivet
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Although Borreby may be defined in different ways depending on the author, they are not the same. Västmanland is just a local form of Nordid, long headed and low skulled.



the Vastarmaland type ( Borreby )

Euclides
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 11:41 PM
Ann Hum Biol. 1983 Jul-Aug;10(4):321-33.


Genetic structure and population history of Ireland: a comparison of blood group and anthropometric analyses.

Relethford JH.

Population structure and history may be studied on a local or a regional level. This paper examines the regional population structure of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland with respect to population history and demographic processes. Blood-group and anthropometric data obtained from the literature are analysed. The blood-group data consist of ABO and Rhesus gene frequencies for 32 counties and the Aran Islands. Anthropometric data consist of summary statistics for 15 variables collected from 19 regions. The degree and pattern of population differentiation is assessed using new methods of population-structure analysis. Both blood group and anthropometric analyses show a west-east division of populations corresponding to the known history of inhabitation of Ireland, where successive waves of immigrants pushed earlier populations further west. In both analyses there were two deviations to this basic pattern: the Aran Islands and the midlands. In both cases, alternative historical explanations are examined. The genetic relationship of the Aran Islands to the rest of Ireland and England appears to be due to English admixture following the garrisoning of soldiers several centuries ago. The genetic position of the midlands is more complex, but suggests the effects of early Viking inhabitation. These findings are related to studies of the local, rather than regional, population structure of Ireland.

Glenlivet
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 11:45 PM
Also more in a thread from 3 weeks ago:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=11561&highlight=ireland



Ann Hum Biol. 1983 Jul-Aug;10(4):321-33.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 11:49 PM
What is the Uppsala/Uppland phenotype, Volksdeutscher? What about York/Yorkshire?

Glenlivet
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 12:40 AM
Uppsala is an academic town with some true upper class Swedes of splendid Nordid phenotype. I would say that they are closest to Trönder. Northern Uppland is said to have minor East Baltid too. There are also many who are of Västmanland type.

Uppland is probably mostly Västmanland, with some Trönder, with a few individuals who show East Baltid physical characteristics.

In the summer of 1943 anthropological investigations were made in Tiundaland, central Uppland. I have a resumé of the material. The stature for men was 171.7 +- 0.26, for women 160.6 +-0.24. The heads were quite broad, men's 157.2 +- 0.25 and women's 151.25 +- 0.23, men's head index 79.8 +- 0.16 and women's 80.5 +- 0.15. The older generation were shorter headed. There was a social difference so those are not fully represenative. Fürst and Retzius got for the whole landscape, an average of 78.88. The result for 1897 became different than 1898 because Uppland's regiment (about in central Uppland) were not investigated in 1898. They got for 1897 79.16 +- 0.10, 1898 78.50 +- 0.13. Naturally 1897 alone is representative for the landscape. Lundborg gave the number 78.10 +- 0.07 (and for Uppsala county 78.18 +- 0.10) which is much lower, but he counted of principle everyone born in the county, why some descendants that moved in later times affected the average. The dispersion coefficient for Uppland is considerably higher than the national average. In the Alunda part a head index of even over 90 was found.

The bizygomatic breadth is significant, 144.1 +- 0.27 for men, 136 +- 0.25 in women, and in the older men 147.4. Also the length of the face is great. For the older alges it is partially because of the well-to-do populations better dental care. This also hold true for facial index, which is albeit, in average, as low as 88.8 +- 0.24 for men, and 85.4 +- 0.24 for women. The nasal form is more often concave than many other parts of the country. However, not more often than other regions with blond meso-brachycephalic; Mora- and Finnmark groups and among SW Finns. The eye colour is consistently light and then often dark blue. On the scale of Saller nr S3 is very common, M17 and M21 are rarer than in the average of Dalarna and somewhat more than Västmanland. The percentage of brown eyed individuals is as low as 1.5 +- 0.45. Nevertheless, the hair colur is medium dark for the standards of Svealand ("uppsvensk") standpoint. Like the other parts of eastern and Northeastern Sweden red hair is very unusual. According to B Lundman (Uppsala, 1945) the East Baltid is in Uppland not insignificant. It was by him compared with Western Estonia. The lower stature of western and central Uppland is more Västmanland type and in east to a large extent Trönder.

I do not have academic knowledge regarding Yorkshire, except that I know Lundman claimed that North Eastern England is inhabited by Göta type people. It would in that case be closer to Västragötaland and Southeastern Norway. The few Yorkshire men that I have seen are more Nordid than anything else.




What is the Uppsala/Uppland phenotype, Volksdeutscher? What about York/Yorkshire?

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Well, what would be the case if my forefathers were wealthy landowners from southwestern Uppland(east of modern day Västeras) during the time Gamla Uppsala was a pagan cult centre, then moved to East Yorkshire and resettled in 867? I have the surname, so albeit rare, they did rename the village after their home. There are suggestive elements in the Heimskringla, the Ynglinga Saga where the King Braut-Oenundr(at Anundshoeg) settled the land near his death and burial spot. At that time, kings did not cater to others than their own families, so external political supporters wouldn't be relevant. I believe I derive from his blood. Later on, after a civil war that devastated the countryside during the beginning of the viking age, I postulate that my forefathers rode the surf to Jorvik with Halfdan, Ivar and Ubbe(Ragnar Lodbrok's sons) as a royal envoy.

They certainly were lords of their manor until the Anglican Reformation, when things began to crumble and some of the family split off to look for wealth in America and embraced less conservative/more Protestant religious views. Their social status had diminished greatly since the fall of York to William the Conqueror. What do you think my phenotype to be? My father looks like Suomut. My preference for women is redhead and blue eyes and do not find much beauty in thin or small frames either, which to me appear underdeveloped or weak. My wife is redhead/blue with freckles and pale white skin(a larger framed Angie Everhart, some days). Her father descends from Vestfold, Norway through a settlement in the Grampian mountains by Balmoral Castle in Pictland. Our daughter has a combo of our features. She is also big for her age, supposedly, reminding everybody of me. Keep in mind that my grandfather has his blood from Yorkshire where the paternal line has been since at least 866, and before that, Uppland.

All of the people I closely know have a soft spot for the Irish. My cousin looks like a tall Colm Meaney. My sister's boyfriend has his blood from Scotland, at least, and he is golden/red haired, fair, blue eyes and burly like me also. Ironically, I am also the academic type, and you could say I have influences from the Venerable Bede. Please refer back to here for what I am going on here with thoughts of myself, my paternity also, just skim to my posts. Keep in mind that I wrote the two Wikipedia articles I reference to, when you put in the subject on Wiki:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=12561

Thank you very much, Volksdeutscher! I value your knowledge quite a lot! I am so happy to have an outside interpretation on this! Good work!

Gareth
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians?
Brünn was named after a city in Czech:
http://www.wallstein-sudetenland.de/KartSud20058.JPG
See the spot on the right, in the province of "Mähren".

"Etymology:
Brünn, or Brno, is a Czech city and archaeological site where Upper Palaeolithic skeletal remains were discovered, certain skull types among which were named after the site."

It says less about the modern distribution however. Btw. the highlighted domains show the former 'Sudetendeutsch' population and have nothing to do with this circumstance.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Hmm...Then classifying people is extremely difficult!

Gareth
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:13 PM
Hmm...Then classifying people is extremely difficult!
Yes, various tribes, Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Asian... moved through the area.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Why would that make Brno the central spot for this type?

Triglav
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Why would that make Brno the central spot for this type?

Due to the finds at Brno-Predmosti:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=10867&page=3&pp=20

Gareth
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Why would that make Brno the central spot for this type?
Well, once they were there. It seems like an evidence for a Central European homeland/station of their development, before taking Irland or Scandinavia. Would be a good reason for the similarities between them and other continental UP-labeled types (e.g. Anglo Saxon/Frisian or Borreby).

I'm not really into the further ideas though.

Germaniathane
Wednesday, February 1st, 2017, 09:56 PM
So, the Keltic side brought their culture and everything, through the invasions, correct? Fir Bolgs, Milesians, Danaan, Partholonians, Nemedians etc.? Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians? On the SNPA map, there also seems to be that Keltics invaded from Britain. Why are those "Keltics" called Celtic when it is clear that the Atlantid(Q Celtic?) areas are traditionally the ones with the Celtic culture? I see the Welsh and Basques sharing their own Paleo-Atlantid(P Celtic?) form too.

This makes little sense.

No. The Bruenn phenotype is the "oldest" phenotype of the British Islands, most likely came from Scandinavia or neighboring parts of Northern and Central Europe to the Isles. Today it is a rare type in its pure form, usually found mixed with other phenotypes which are common the Irish and British populations. The type is most common in western Ireland, but is found also in a much lower frequency in Britain. The Palaeo-Atlantid is the second oldest type of the British Isles and western Norway, is a tall, rugged, dark type. The North-Atlantid came as a result of blending between the Atlantid type of Western Europe with the Nordid ( Keltic) type of Central Europe brought by Indo-European speakers who conquered who conquered a considerable parts of Europe.


So, the Keltic side brought their culture and everything, through the invasions, correct? Fir Bolgs, Milesians, Danaan, Partholonians, Nemedians etc.? Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians? On the SNPA map, there also seems to be that Keltics invaded from Britain. Why are those "Keltics" called Celtic when it is clear that the Atlantid(Q Celtic?) areas are traditionally the ones with the Celtic culture? I see the Welsh and Basques sharing their own Paleo-Atlantid(P Celtic?) form too.

This makes little sense.
Paleo-Atlantid is not Celtic!
Nordid ( Keltic) = Celtic ( P and Q-Celtic)
The Nordid ( Keltic) is the most common phenotype in the British Isles and mainland North-West Europe.
Ireland = 30%
Scotland = 30%
Wales = 30%
England = 30%
Belgium = 60%
The Netherlands = 50%

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Tuesday, January 9th, 2018, 06:26 AM
Volksdeutscher wrote a real gem right here.


Uppsala is an academic town with some true upper class Swedes of splendid Nordid phenotype. I would say that they are closest to Trönder. Northern Uppland is said to have minor East Baltid too. There are also many who are of Västmanland type.

Uppland is probably mostly Västmanland, with some Trönder, with a few individuals who show East Baltid physical characteristics.

In the summer of 1943 anthropological investigations were made in Tiundaland, central Uppland. I have a resumé of the material. The stature for men was 171.7 +- 0.26, for women 160.6 +-0.24. The heads were quite broad, men's 157.2 +- 0.25 and women's 151.25 +- 0.23, men's head index 79.8 +- 0.16 and women's 80.5 +- 0.15. The older generation were shorter headed. There was a social difference so those are not fully represenative. Fürst and Retzius got for the whole landscape, an average of 78.88. The result for 1897 became different than 1898 because Uppland's regiment (about in central Uppland) were not investigated in 1898. They got for 1897 79.16 +- 0.10, 1898 78.50 +- 0.13. Naturally 1897 alone is representative for the landscape. Lundborg gave the number 78.10 +- 0.07 (and for Uppsala county 78.18 +- 0.10) which is much lower, but he counted of principle everyone born in the county, why some descendants that moved in later times affected the average. The dispersion coefficient for Uppland is considerably higher than the national average. In the Alunda part a head index of even over 90 was found.

The bizygomatic breadth is significant, 144.1 +- 0.27 for men, 136 +- 0.25 in women, and in the older men 147.4. Also the length of the face is great. For the older alges it is partially because of the well-to-do populations better dental care. This also hold true for facial index, which is albeit, in average, as low as 88.8 +- 0.24 for men, and 85.4 +- 0.24 for women. The nasal form is more often concave than many other parts of the country. However, not more often than other regions with blond meso-brachycephalic; Mora- and Finnmark groups and among SW Finns. The eye colour is consistently light and then often dark blue. On the scale of Saller nr S3 is very common, M17 and M21 are rarer than in the average of Dalarna and somewhat more than Västmanland. The percentage of brown eyed individuals is as low as 1.5 +- 0.45. Nevertheless, the hair colur is medium dark for the standards of Svealand ("uppsvensk") standpoint. Like the other parts of eastern and Northeastern Sweden red hair is very unusual. According to B Lundman (Uppsala, 1945) the East Baltid is in Uppland not insignificant. It was by him compared with Western Estonia. The lower stature of western and central Uppland is more Västmanland type and in east to a large extent Trönder.

I do not have academic knowledge regarding Yorkshire, except that I know Lundman claimed that North Eastern England is inhabited by Göta type people. It would in that case be closer to Västragötaland and Southeastern Norway. The few Yorkshire men that I have seen are more Nordid than anything else.

Well, I have to correct myself and too often, it's a case of "close, but no cigar". Beyond Yorkshire, my ancestry is from Tiundaland in between Gamla Uppsala and Osthammar, not Västmanland; 11th century with Knut and not 9th century with Ragnar's sons--my paternal lineage was only in the Danelaw for 35-50 years at most before the Norman Conquest. Furthermore, I have kin in SW Finland, so everything Volksdeutscher wrote really answered my questions very well! I have not read this thread in over a decade, but came to the conclusion on my own that I am Aistin Trönder (from the SNPA example) or Fenno-Nordid and East Baltid (chiefly Savolaxid). Most of the Trönder examples look like my children, myself, my father, my father's sister's son, my grandfather, etc, although generally with fuller features that aren't so angular.

I know I have to be quite a bit UP, because I have heavy bones with a weight around 245 lbs. @ 6', but my waistline is only 35". Jaedertypen and Hordaland examples, the Norwegian Borreby, also seem to have very much resemblance to myself and our children. I wonder why it is that mostly Norwegian phenotypes predominate in the family, whether Trönder or Jaedertypen, etc., but I know that Erik of Lade was made by Knut Jarl of Northumbria to represent the Northmen there, whereas Thorkell the Tall from Sweden was made Jarl of East Anglia. I think it means there have been more Norwegian genetics in the North per capita, Swedish genes likewise in the East (which I have less of), Danes evenly spread out between them. My wife's Bruenn features come from her Gaelic Irish paternal grandmother, whose lineage goes back to Dublin and Leinster, whilst her Scottish lineage is from that woman's own mother, going back to Brechin in Angus, of an old Northumbrian clan. The rest of her 6/8 are Anglo-Saxon.


Well, what would be the case if my forefathers were wealthy landowners from southwestern Uppland(east of modern day Västeras) during the time Gamla Uppsala was a pagan cult centre, then moved to East Yorkshire and resettled in 867? I have the surname, so albeit rare, they did rename the village after their home. There are suggestive elements in the Heimskringla, the Ynglinga Saga where the King Braut-Oenundr(at Anundshoeg) settled the land near his death and burial spot. At that time, kings did not cater to others than their own families, so external political supporters wouldn't be relevant. I believe I derive from his blood. Later on, after a civil war that devastated the countryside during the beginning of the viking age, I postulate that my forefathers rode the surf to Jorvik with Halfdan, Ivar and Ubbe(Ragnar Lodbrok's sons) as a royal envoy.

They certainly were lords of their manor until the Anglican Reformation, when things began to crumble and some of the family split off to look for wealth in America and embraced less conservative/more Protestant religious views. Their social status had diminished greatly since the fall of York to William the Conqueror. What do you think my phenotype to be? My father looks like Suomut. My preference for women is redhead and blue eyes and do not find much beauty in thin or small frames either, which to me appear underdeveloped or weak. My wife is redhead/blue with freckles and pale white skin(a larger framed Angie Everhart, some days). Her father descends from Vestfold, Norway through a settlement in the Grampian mountains by Balmoral Castle in Pictland. Our daughter has a combo of our features. She is also big for her age, supposedly, reminding everybody of me. Keep in mind that my grandfather has his blood from Yorkshire where the paternal line has been since at least 866, and before that, Uppland.

All of the people I closely know have a soft spot for the Irish. My cousin looks like a tall Colm Meaney. My sister's boyfriend has his blood from Scotland, at least, and he is golden/red haired, fair, blue eyes and burly like me also. Ironically, I am also the academic type, and you could say I have influences from the Venerable Bede. Please refer back to here for what I am going on here with thoughts of myself, my paternity also, just skim to my posts. Keep in mind that I wrote the two Wikipedia articles I reference to, when you put in the subject on Wiki:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=12561

Thank you very much, Volksdeutscher! I value your knowledge quite a lot! I am so happy to have an outside interpretation on this! Good work!

Germaniathane
Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018, 04:52 PM
So, the Keltic side brought their culture and everything, through the invasions, correct? Fir Bolgs, Milesians, Danaan, Partholonians, Nemedians etc.? Then I guess the Paddy/Brunn side is from the Fomorians? On the SNPA map, there also seems to be that Keltics invaded from Britain. Why are those "Keltics" called Celtic when it is clear that the Atlantid(Q Celtic?) areas are traditionally the ones with the Celtic culture? I see the Welsh and Basques sharing their own Paleo-Atlantid(P Celtic?) form too.

This makes little sense.

Don't be ridiculous, Welsh and Basques are not the same people! The Welsh are closer to their Celtic cousins in Cornwall, Scotland and Ireland! Celtic people came from east by way of mainland North-West Europe to reach the Isles.