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mav0ric
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 01:43 AM
Could some kind soul explain to me how to take measurements for racial classification? I have never been all that interested in my sub grouping but now I am curious after reading some other threads on the subject. Any help is apreciated.

Hellstar
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 02:06 AM
You cant really just measure from some point to another and then successfully establish what race you are. its combined with alot of other observations/factors and examinations.

but certain measurements could help to confine the raw features of your race morphology.

Personally I had to start with a fucking roller tape and measure and it was erroneous in many ways and pissed me off big time. Some months ago I bought another helping tool which I have no idea what is called in English* I lack a "large" calliper. I got one almost perfect when I glue straight sticks unto it. but I need a large calliper which is hard to find! not even the institute of social anthropology in Copenhagen could help me when I contacted them.

Actually it would be interesting if Von Braun which work as lab assistant could elaborate on their "electronic" equipment (name of product and prize perhaps?) I know they have some sort of advanced tools there.

Im thinking of buying one my self to get 99,9% correct measurements!

I have nr 1 (left) instrument, but nr 2 (right) is what im looking for DESPERATELY.

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 08:00 AM
I've been looking for that stuff online and the #2 are called "Flat leg outside calipers".

Here's a site that sells that stuff:
http://www.toolstoolstoolstools.com/c/Caliper/

Here are also some digital calipers, they are much easier to work with in my opinion.
http://www.inspection.pwallen.co.uk/Catalogue/DI/923/32141.html

Here are some very large calipers:
http://www.suncoasttools.com/shop/Chicago.Brand.Calipers.html

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 08:45 AM
Cephalic index is the ratio of the length of the head to its breadth, sometimes multiplied by 100 for convenience. So you get a caliper and measure the length and the width the divide the width by the length. This will give you the percentage that your head is longer than it is wide

A cephalic index of 80 or more is called brachycephalic or broad; a measurement between 75 and 80 is mesocephalic; below 75 is considered dolicocephalic or long. By using that you can sometimes get a better idea of what subrace you are, especially if it's an accurate measurement.

------------
http://www.system-concepts.com/cgi-bin/syscon/percentile.pl?calculate
Here you can figure out if you are tall or taller than average compared to other north Europeans, or compared to Japanese (haha)


I'm taller than 75% of British females :)
and 99% of Japanese females.......x_rofl

But I get a feeling I'm not at full height yet because both my parents are still a lot taller than me x_p

Hellstar
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 08:50 AM
Thanks alot. I was wondering what the hell it was called in English. they are rare to find, Im gonna buy one right away. Thanks by the time i get it, then we will proberly all make a new meassure thread and argue with ross again lol. Thanks alot.

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 08:58 AM
Hehe Ross hasn't been here in a while, it's been really nice without him pushing his communist Russian crap all over the board!

Always glad to help.........

Hellstar
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:00 AM
by a closer look. the flat leg caliper is out of stock. so typical. jews own amazon also. im not even sure the caliper is big enough to meassure C.I but I could be wrong it says meassuring faces. anywhere else this can be bought?. i think its true that digital calipers are better but be sure the stick extensions are long enough or its damn hard to use them.

so im still looking for one flat legged caliper it seems.

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:10 AM
http://www.handytoolshop.com/items.php?SearchKeyWord=Caliper&pageCounter=2

You can get them here also
http://www.toolhawk.com/tools/General_Tools_Measuring_Layout_Tools_Cal ipers_8346.cfm

http://www.shophub.com/pc_tools_Calipers.cfm

http://www.tools-n-such.com/c/Calipers/

here they seem to be a lot cheaper and bigger also.
http://www.houseoftools.com/subcat.htm?cat=2126

Once of these places should have them in stock.......

Hellstar
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:15 AM
wow cool. http://www.houseoftools.com/product.htm?pid=14191

this one is 12 inch. that should be enough? you think its to big lol.

I wonder how you retrieve the actually measure data on this thing, I cant see it that clear on the picture. but one should think there is some sort of calculator in beginning of the instrument?

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR


I wonder how you retrieve the actually measure data on this thing, I cant see it that clear on the picture. but one should think there is some sort of calculator in beginning of the instrument?

I was wondering that myself......

BodewinTheSilent
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
wow cool. http://www.houseoftools.com/product.htm?pid=14191

this one is 12 inch. that should be enough? you think its to big lol.

I wonder how you retrieve the actually measure data on this thing, I cant see it that clear on the picture. but one should think there is some sort of calculator in beginning of the instrument?

I don't think that version of a caliper is intended to measure things. It says on the site it's for "Adjusting washer and nut" fittings. A proper caliper has the measure on a parallel rod (ruler), and the caliper then scales the measurement taken, onto the ruler.

Hellstar
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 09:28 PM
But you can maybe read from the gap if its locked in position?

Anyway i wrote the owner of the site last night to ask. Im waiting for him to get his finger out of his ass. You must admit dear old Heimdall it would be great with such a instrument;)

BodewinTheSilent
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
But you can maybe read from the gap if its locked in position?

No, that is exactly the point I was making. The measurement with these is scaled down, because the width of the calipers at the opposite end, is smaller than the width where they take the measurements of your face. Thus, proper calipers have a scaled down ruler in that gap you talk about, which automatically converts the measurement you take. In effect, it scales the measurement up to its real size. On the caliper ruler, the measurements are much smaller than on a proper ruler, and 1cm say, is shown as much less than that, so that you get a correct absolute figure.

The only way you could do it, is if you measured that gap, and then had some kind of scale to hand, that would permit you to convert the distance into real-sized centimetres. I'm afraid that I don't know of any scale such as that.

EDIT: I've just thought about what you said, measuring the gap where it touches your face. This would give you a round about figure, but it would not be entirely accurate, because the arms of the caliper bend outwards. Still, you could always try it, and see what results you get.


Originally posted by HELLSTAR
You must admit dear old Heimdall it would be great with such a instrument;)

Yes, you'll probably make a balls up of it, like you did last time. x_p And oi, less of the "old" thank you. :D

BodewinTheSilent
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by mav0ric
Could some kind soul explain to me how to take measurements for racial classification? I have never been all that interested in my sub grouping but now I am curious after reading some other threads on the subject. Any help is apreciated.

The two major indices in anthropology, are the cephalic index and the facial index.

To calculate your cephalic (skull) index, you should measure your cranial breadth, then your cranial length. Note down the figures you obtain. Multiply the breadth by 100, and divide the resulting figure, by the length. You now have the anthropological measurement known as the cephalic index.

To calculate your morphological facial index, you should measure your facial height, then your facial width (bizygomatic diameter). Note down the figures you obtain. Multiply the height by 100, and divide the resulting figure, by the width. You now have the anthropological measurement known as the facial index.

To discover where you take these measurements on your face and skull, go to this site (make sure that you don't delete the pop-up windows, and insure you read what is in them):

http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77mHFN.htm

After all of this, you should then know whether you are dolicho-, meso-, or brachy- cephalic in skull form, and lepto-, meso-, or eury- prosopic in facial form. :D

BodewinTheSilent
Sunday, December 15th, 2002, 11:15 PM
To further clarify my last post, here is some more information.

Cranial length is number 20.
Cranial breadth is number 19.

Facial height is number 24.
Facial width is number 21.

But see the site itself for more detailed information:

http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77mHFN.htm

http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77m18_32.gif

http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77m19_33.gif

Hellstar
Tuesday, December 17th, 2002, 10:45 AM
A fucking calliper cost 400 dollars with included shipping.

I contacted head of physical anthropology in American association.

He gave me address to a woman in Denmark.

Hi Hellstar,
No problem. I am happy to be of assistance. my friend Pia Benike at the Panum Institute in Copenhagen could probably help you. Here's her contact information:

Pia Bennike
Laboratory of Biological Anthropology
University of Copenhagen
Blegdamsvej 3
DK-2200 Copenhagen N, Denmark
Tlf. +45 3532 7229, Fax +45 3532 7215

Hellstar
Saturday, December 21st, 2002, 01:52 AM
Well you can get such calipers for 12 dollars some places but they miss that CM measure on and etc. You know anywhere with such a Cm reader included? then please speak forth.

Hellstar
Saturday, December 21st, 2002, 02:02 AM
No 12 inch flat legged Callipers made in USA, to the prize of 12 $

the guy at the store however said this to me:
----------------------------------
Our callipers are for work shop machining, lathe work & drill press work, not for the type of tool you might want to use in such a personal setting as your pictures indicate
thx, Norm.
--------------------------------

So because they dont have a Centimeter reader Yes. I would assume a real Instrument to measure Cephalic Index and such would only cost 100 dollars highest, so I refuse to pay 400 For one.

The digital ones you refer to are not the same as the picture above are they? They are the other instrument, I already got one of those. Im looking for the instrument which is next to the cranium above on this page.

Hellstar
Saturday, December 21st, 2002, 02:32 AM
Thanks I reconsider your suggestions, I will do some more searching and perhaps direct some questions to you about the digital measuring/instruments since you worked up some experience with this.

Hellstar
Saturday, December 21st, 2002, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by ns1488ca
That tool above is called a Flat leg outside caliper. From above:
http://www.handytoolshop.com/items.php?SearchKeyWord=Caliper&pageCounter=2
Yep I know its called that, But like I said they do not Measure any length these callipers above, You know where to get one with a length measure reader?
Here you can see the difference between a digital and dial vernier:
http://www.handytoolshop.com/items.php?SearchKeyWord=Caliper
You will need one that reads up to 30cm/12inches.
Yep 30 cm would be just right, the digitals are good but they are still not long enough, You need a stick on which is atleast 15cm (most of them are 5-6 cm) and it complicate alot of measures. The most ideal would be a flat legged calliper 12 inch with cm reader on. but seems extinct to find.

Azdaja
Tuesday, December 24th, 2002, 10:07 AM
Ok, I'm having some trouble figuring out how to get the CI and FI....but mainly the FI. I must be misunderstanding something, but I'm not sure what.
Could someone give me:
1) "Typical" cranial breadth and length measurements (in inches to make it really simple) for a dolicho-, meso-, and brachycephalic person, then show how to arrive at the CI?
2) The same sort of examples as it concerns the FI types?

Thanks.

BodewinTheSilent
Tuesday, December 24th, 2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Kalos
Ok, I'm having some trouble figuring out how to get the CI and FI....but mainly the FI. I must be misunderstanding something, but I'm not sure what.

This might help you with the measuring of the facial index:


The facial shape is laid down as the proportion between the height of the face and the bizygomatic diameter, the former being reckoned as a percentage of the latter. The height of the face is (speaking approximately) the distance between the bridge of the nose at the level of the ends of the interior hairs of the eyebrows and the lowest (not the foremost) point in the chin. The bizygomatic diameter is the extreme outward distance between the zygomatic arches (cheek-bones). The percentage number thus arrived at is called the (morphological) facial index. Measured on the skull, a facial index up to 84.9 is broad, from 85 to 89.9 it is middling or medium, from 90 upwards it is narrow. Measured on the living head the limits are taken lower (83.9, 84 to 87.9, 88).

http://www4.stormfront.org/whitehistory/reoehchap1.htm


Could someone give me:
1) "Typical" cranial breadth and length measurements (in inches to make it really simple) for a dolicho-, meso-, and brachycephalic person, then show how to arrive at the CI?
2) The same sort of examples as it concerns the FI types?

Well, there really is no such thing as a "typical" measurement, because the diameters differ so much from area to area, and race to race. There are also individual variations to consider. You should ALWAYS measure metrically, that is the standard manner, and it makes the calculations easier, because it is a decimal-friendly system. Here is a theoretical example for you:

A person has a cranial length of 200mm, and a cranial breadth of 155mm, once measured. They then calculate the CI thus:

155 x 100 = 15500

15500
-------- = 77.5
200

Such a person therefore has a CI of 77.5 (mesocephalic).

If you carefully follow the instructions I've given in my posts above, you shouldn't go far wrong.

Azdaja
Tuesday, December 24th, 2002, 11:04 PM
Alright, I think my problem is that I misunderstood how to measure the facial height.
This site:
http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77mHFN.htm
seems to give a different definition of facial height.
My assumption is that the facial height SHOULD be the lower of the two measurements, thus the multiplication by 100.
It is definantly the measuring of the facial height which is tripping me up.

(edited: to add http address)

Azdaja
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 06:25 PM
Yes, that's exactly where my confusion is coming from. I'm just going to assume that what most people are calling "facial height" this site is calling "lower facial height".

Hellstar
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 06:51 PM
Thats lower facial index!

From Nasal root to chin prominent bone.

BTW what is your measures guys?

PS. my Lower facial index is 13,5 - 14 cm when relaxed.

Ross
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 06:54 PM
Hasn't the man in your avatar has vertical cheek bones? Quite like with EBs...

Hellstar
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 06:56 PM
Interesting observation Ross. he seem most Hallstatt/Phallian to me though.

Ross
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
Interesting observation Ross. he seem most Hallstatt/Phallian to me though.

While it's easy to differentiate between Baltics and Nordics and Mongolid influenced East-Baltics (nasal root, eyes position, cheeks), it's still a mistery for me how to differentiate between Baltics and Phalians. Stature can not be used in individual cases (and it's not constant), so it's cheek position only (Europid Baltics have no depressed noses etc like observed by Guenther - on the contrary, their nasal skeleton is the most prominent).

Compare

PS. The above man is EB - a bit Mongolid influenced - I just wanted to draw attention to cheek position.

BodewinTheSilent
Thursday, December 26th, 2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Kalos
Yes, that's exactly where my confusion is coming from. I'm just going to assume that what most people are calling "facial height" this site is calling "lower facial height".

Yes, that's right. You should measure what they call the "lower facial height" (number 23). Sorry, I pointed out the wrong number there. I think they call it that, because the measurements were taken on children, whose faces are smaller. BTW, you shouldn't compare your measurements to those on the site: they're of children, not adults.

GreenHeart
Friday, December 27th, 2002, 12:13 AM
I'll post my measurements later tonight....

Azdaja
Friday, December 27th, 2002, 12:17 AM
I'm not even going to try and take my measurements without a caliper. I just want to learn the different terms, lol.

Hellstar
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
I'll post my measurements later tonight....

that was a few days ago?

Ross
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
that was a few days ago?

Do you care? They're floating anyway, like NASDAQ and Dow Jones indexes. First go up, after that - down... :-)

cosmocreator
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:11 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=809
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=814
http://www.itl.nist.gov/iaui/ovrt/projects/anthrokids/77mHFN.htm

Allenson
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:41 PM
On these pages, one will find craniofacial landmarks and measurements between them that can be taken:

http://www.geocities.com/pbateman852/clf.htm

http://www.geocities.com/pbateman852/clp.htm

http://www.geocities.com/pbateman852/Measurements.htm

cosmocreator
Thursday, November 6th, 2003, 07:12 AM
Instruments


http://www.seritex.com/anthro.html

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 09:47 AM
A. Head form

Lenghts:

x-169mm : very short
170-177mm : short
178-185mm : moderately long
186-193mm : long
194-x mm : very long

Breadths:

x-139mm : very narrow
140-147mm : narrow
148-155mm : moderately broad
156-163mm : broad
164-x mm : very broad



B. Nose form

Heights:

x-49mm : very low
50-52mm : low
53-55mm : moderate
56-58mm : high
59-x mm : very high


Breadths:

x- 30mm : very narrow
31-33mm : narrow
34-36mm : medium
37-39mm : broad
40-x mm : very broad



C. Facial morphology:

Heights:

x- 111mm : very low
112-117mm : low
118-123mm : medium
124-129mm : high
130-x mm : very high


Widths:

x-127mm : very narrow
128-135mm : narrow
136-143mm : medium
144-151mm : broad
152-x mm : very broad



Source:

Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt, Die Forschung am Menschen.Teil1: Geschichte und Methoden der Anthropologie.
Stuttgart: Ferdinand Enke, 1940.