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jesusfreak
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 04:01 AM
Okay, God is all-knowing, all-powerful. Since he knows everything that has, is, and ever will happen, we can come to the conclusion that fate is a reality. Since God knows everything, including the choices WE WILL MAKE, that makes fate true. Plus the fact that there is no Time in Heaven, he can see anywhere he chooses at any time.

Moody
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Can God change anything, or is Fate impossible even for God to change?

Waarnemer
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Okay, God is all-knowing, all-powerful. Since he knows everything that has, is, and ever will happen, we can come to the conclusion that fate is a reality. Since God knows everything, including the choices WE WILL MAKE, that makes fate true. Plus the fact that there is no Time in Heaven, he can see anywhere he chooses at any time.
Okay, then what is the intention of life?

A question for you jesusfreak. Tell me... without god there is nothing. Then why has god created the bad and the dark side of life?

Moody
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 05:42 PM
If God is all powerful, then why don't he change Fate?
Or is God just a sadist who likes to see billions of his creatures suffer?
Why can't God get rid of Evil?
Surely Evil is just a part of Fate.

Waarnemer
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 05:58 PM
If God is all powerful, then why don't he change Fate?
Or is God just a sadist who likes to see billions of his creatures suffer?
Why can't God get rid of Evil?
Surely Evil is just a part of Fate.
God knows everything... Then why has he created the devil? You would think that this is a game for god.

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 03:33 AM
Good point but I have a better one. God gave us choice right. If there was no evil, then there would be no choice about which way your life would go. If there was no evil, you could only choose good. Get it? Without Evil, there is no choice about your life.

Moody
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 03:40 PM
That contradicts slightly the first post you made;


Okay, God is all-knowing, all-powerful. Since he knows everything that has, is, and ever will happen, we can come to the conclusion that fate is a reality. Since God knows everything, including the choices WE WILL MAKE, that makes fate true. Plus the fact that there is no Time in Heaven, he can see anywhere he chooses at any time.

According to you, there is Fate, and God knows in advance all the "choices" we are going to make. Therefore he KNOWS those who are going to 'chose' Evil.
So he knows that the child molestor, the rapist and the race-mixer are going to make their crimes!

An "all powerful God" that stands back and just watches PRE-ORDAINED crimes and suffering occur is not a "good God" but an EVIL one!

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 03:49 PM
I never said that the evil will not be punished and the good will not be comforted when evil strikes. and anything that happens is meant to happen and will work out as it should.

Moody
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 03:57 PM
I never said that the evil will not be punished and the good will not be comforted when evil strikes. and anything that happens is meant to happen and will work out as it should.

Let's agree that some Evil is punished [although does God's Evil go unpunished?]; isn't it true that many innocents suffer?
Aren't innocent women raped?
Aren't innocent people tortured, maimed and murdered?
Aren't races eradicated?

God, according to you, KNOWS all about this as it is Fated; not only that - being "outside of time" - he can 'drop in' like a time traveller and watch the butchering of innocents at any time in history!

Is God an Evil-doing sadist who likes to watch human suffering for his own entertainment - suffering he has ordained and could CHANGE [he has the power] if he only WANTED to!

The excuse that some Evil doers suffer [and they were Evil out of Fate] punishment [and this God does so LOVE to punish!] does not wash!

By your depiction, God has seemingly created this world to enjoy the sufferings and the punishments of mankind, all of which HE HAS CREATED!

Your "God" is nothing but the Devil in disguise!

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 04:15 PM
People have free will and choices. They do what they will, God simply knows what they are going to do. He does not control what they do, although he could if he wanted. I don't see you doing anything about it yourself anyway. And seeing as how I do not know God's plan, I am unable to answer that question. Would you like to explain to me yourself why the world is not perfect harmony.

Moody
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 04:25 PM
People have free will and choices. They do what they will, God simply knows what they are going to do. He does not control what they do, although he could if he wanted. I don't see you doing anything about it yourself anyway. And seeing as how I do not know God's plan, I am unable to answer that question. Would you like to explain to me yourself why the world is not perfect harmony.

'Free will' and 'choices' contradicts your notion of 'Fate' as stated in your title.

If everything is pre-ordained as you say, then there is only the ILLUSION of free-choice.

If God knows what everybody is going to do, and God is all powerful, then why doesn't he intervene when innocents are slaughtered and when Evil triumphs?
Why does God stand back and merely observe the spectacle that he has created?

Now you say that God does not control "even if he wanted"!
This contradicts your assertion that God is all powerful, outside of time and therefore omnipresent.

So your God is either an Evil sadist, or else he lacks power [and is therefore not really fit to be called God].

You then quickly contradict yourself again by suggesting that this confused God has a "plan"!
Some plan!
If this world is his "plan", then he is an EVIL PLANNER!

Who said that the world SHOULD be in 'perfect harmony'? - or are you trying to say that that is "God's plan" as you see it?

You are the one positing the threadbare hypothesis of an All Powerful, All Knowing, All Good God!

Surely if that were true, then the world would be All Good [and harmonious] as it would reflect it's Creator!

If God created this world then he is a malefactor.

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 04:32 PM
ah, I just remembered something. Throughout the bible, there are several words that are apaced out through different sentences. For example, The first letter of a word, five words apart spells something such as Hitler or something. Predictions of the future that have not been found until recently.

Waarnemer
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Good point but I have a better one. God gave us choice right. If there was no evil, then there would be no choice about which way your life would go. If there was no evil, you could only choose good. Get it? Without Evil, there is no choice about your life.
What choice? If you choose for god you go to heaven (live). If you choose against god you go to hell (death). That is no choice, that is dictatorship.

look at the bible, God placeest a tree (knowledge) in the garden of eden. only if you took the fruit... then you have problems. The (sin) flood is also a good example. If you don't do what god wants, then that is the result...
The tower of babel is also a good example.

there is no real choice.

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 04:55 PM
As you said yourself, you either choose God or you don't. That is choice. Adam and Eve had Choice. You have choice. It is a very easy choice.

StrÝbog
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 05:02 PM
ah, I just remembered something. Throughout the bible, there are several words that are apaced out through different sentences. For example, The first letter of a word, five words apart spells something such as Hitler or something. Predictions of the future that have not been found until recently.

ROFL this method has been thoroughly debunked. It can be performed with any book through simple statistics. What "bible" are you talking about anyway? King James? New Revised Standard Version? St. Jerome Latin Vulgate? The original "bible" was written in a haphazard fashion over millenia in multiple languages. Books were included or excluded based on random political whims. How would this Bible Code work at all when Hebrew has no vowels? Seems to me there is a lot of subjective misinterpretation by Christians who are anxious to justify their beliefs.

StrÝbog
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 05:06 PM
As you said yourself, you either choose God or you don't. That is choice. Adam and Eve had Choice. You have choice. It is a very easy choice.

See my posts in the Big Bang thread.

If an omniscient and omnipotent God created the universe and mankind, he knew exactly what he was doing when he created them. He gave mankind its nature while foreseeing what the effects of that nature would be. Therefore not only is God responsible for man's sins by knowingly and willfully creating humanity to his own exact specifications, but he has no right to judge or punish any of his creations since they behave according to the nature he deliberately gave them.

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 07:34 PM
What makes God responsible for our sins? We are the ones who sin. We CHOOSE to sin. God does not force us to sin or not to sin. Repentence and faith in Jesus is what saves us from our sins.

Northern Paladin
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 08:28 PM
What makes God responsible for our sins? We are the ones who sin. We CHOOSE to sin. God does not force us to sin or not to sin. Repentence and faith in Jesus is what saves us from our sins.

God is responsible because he created us with the capablity to sin. Why didn't God create Creatures that are Perfectly Good and encapable of Evil if he wanted to.

More over isn't God also responsible for the Moral Evils that are present in this world? Famine,War,Natural Diasters. In various places in the Bible it speaks of God sending Evil spirits, Plagues and giving Satan permission to do Evil.

jesusfreak
Thursday, June 10th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Because the people have sinned against God, so he is punishing them. We sin against God, and he punishes us.

StrÝbog
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 12:52 AM
You're missing the point. If God created flawed creatures, then they are his responsibility. He made mankind this way deliberately.

jesusfreak
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:43 AM
And you are missing my point. We have free will. We choose to act the way God wants us to act, or we act sinfully. How we act is not God's responsibility. We are responsible for our own actions. God does not HAVE to do anything about them if he does not wish. But he influences us every day and guides us be ause he loves us. If you don't even believe in him, then why should he help you? Would you like to answer billions of prayers each day, prevent all evil, stop all deaths, and do this all while trying to earn the love of a people who does not believe in you?

StrÝbog
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:54 AM
And you are missing my point. We have free will. We choose to act the way God wants us to act, or we act sinfully. How we act is not God's responsibility. We are responsible for our own actions. God does not HAVE to do anything about them if he does not wish. But he influences us every day and guides us be ause he loves us. If you don't even believe in him, then why should he help you? Would you like to answer billions of prayers each day, prevent all evil, stop all deaths, and do this all while trying to earn the love of a people who does not believe in you?

God knew what would happen when he created the universe and everything in it and chose to allow it to develop the way it did. God made us the way we are and knew exactly what each of us would do. Otherwise, he is not an omnipotent and omniscient God. So either God is omnipotent, but cruel, because he allows evil and punishes people for the nature he gave them, or he is weak and can't change events.

I don't think I said I didn't believe in God, I said it was unknowable. Your logic is circular. Why should God help someone who doesn't believe in him? Why should someone believe in God if he doesn't help them? God doesn't prevent all evil or stop all deaths. God could have created a universe where none of those things even exist, and chose not to.

jesusfreak
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 03:12 AM
This conversation is circular. We could go on like this forever. God made us the way we should be. with choice. We CHOOSE TO DO EVIL or we CHOOSE TO DO GOOD. I do not want to be perfect. I am just gonna drop this because it can be argued for all eternity. When I said You, I am sorry that if it seemed specific. I was not accusing you of anything.

Telperion
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 03:37 AM
God knew what would happen when he created the universe and everything in it and chose to allow it to develop the way it did. God made us the way we are and knew exactly what each of us would do. Otherwise, he is not an omnipotent and omniscient God.

My understanding is that it was the recognition of this paradox that led Jean Calvin to formulate the doctrine of predestination, i.e. that God knew before he created the universe whom the 'Elect' would be, and that everyone else was predestined to damnation, without any hope of redemption at all. And Calvinism has played a rather significant role in the history of Protestantism.

So, it should be understood that Stribog's argument (leaving aside its normative conclusions about the nature of God) was accepted as true by one of the most important figures in the history of Christian theology.

Tore
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 06:30 AM
We CHOOSE TO DO EVIL or we CHOOSE TO DO GOOD.

Yes, but this supposed "choice" is a facade as god (according to you) possesses the foresight to know which decision will ultimately be made, thus making man's deliberation and "free will" rather futile.

Moody
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 03:36 PM
As you said yourself, you either choose God or you don't. That is choice. Adam and Eve had Choice. You have choice. It is a very easy choice.

Adam and Eve is a fable - a fiction created by the same people who created the fiction of a "jealous God".
If God is not a piece of creative fiction, then who or what created God?

Northern Paladin
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 04:30 PM
From a Christian Perspective God is the "Uncreated" Creator. The one who is and was and who is to come.(some verse in the Bible)

Christian Theology teaches God has always been and always will be. In God there is no past present future. He is all those things at Once.
Looking at it from a Christian Perspective. Humans didn't make up a fictious God. God gave humans the intellectual ablity to comprehend his Existance. With the purpose of following his "Directives" or "Doing his Will" as Christians will refer it as, and having Fellowship with him. There by pleasing God and gaining Eternal Life in his Prescence(Heaven).

Alice
Sunday, December 9th, 2018, 01:55 PM
Okay, God is all-knowing, all-powerful. Since he knows everything that has, is, and ever will happen, we can come to the conclusion that fate is a reality. Since God knows everything, including the choices WE WILL MAKE, that makes fate true. Plus the fact that there is no Time in Heaven, he can see anywhere he chooses at any time.

Fate? No, more like Divine Providence in my opinion.

“If by fate anyone means the will or power of God, let him keep his meaning but mend his language; for fate commonly means a necessary process which will have its way apart from the will of God and men.”
— Saint Augustine