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Witta
Saturday, December 26th, 2009, 08:42 AM
Scottish people are to be officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group under new guidelines for monitoring racial and ethnic equality.

The Scots, the English and the Welsh, will now be able to affirm their national identity on official forms. Census forms and job applications have until now only allowed groupings like Asians, Chinese and Africans to specify their ethnicity.

The move should result in closer monitoring of how Scots are treated. It is also expected to make job hunting fairer enabling greater racial equality in the workplace. The new move will also crackdown on public sector employers to promote racial equality. Private companies will also come under close scrutiny.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3387749.stm

http://www.ansgeulaiche.co.uk/images/scot-and-macaig1-c.jpg

Berrocscir
Monday, December 28th, 2009, 03:34 PM
Oh thank you our great lords and masters for granting us permission to exist :|

...and I hope no scot is discriminated against in the workplace, but also goes for the English in their own country!

Æğele Wiğercwida
Wednesday, May 5th, 2010, 03:41 AM
Ah, but I am the son of an English mother and a Scotish father.....



.....WHAT DO I PUT?:-O


:D

perkuns
Wednesday, May 5th, 2010, 04:08 AM
Ah, but I am the son of an English mother and a Scotish father.....



.....WHAT DO I PUT?:-O


:D:thumbup
British?

ArcticWarrior
Monday, December 6th, 2010, 11:10 PM
It's about time. And London is often wondering why so many Scots are displeased...
At least something is going right.

Pictoria
Friday, March 18th, 2011, 06:37 PM
That is absolutely absurd. Scottish people are of the same racial make-up a those of Britain and much of the rest of Europe. But what can we expect from a regime that worships the Jew Franz Boas and his devious disciples.

Sigurd
Friday, March 18th, 2011, 07:16 PM
.....WHAT DO I PUT?:-O

"I am a man of dual heritage", much like half Negroes/half Asians do. In any other instance, use the write-in to specify "British bastard, in several meanings of the word". :wsg

Edie
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 07:50 PM
That is absolutely absurd. Scottish people are of the same racial make-up a those of Britain and much of the rest of Europe.

Every European national or sub-national group should aim to be recognised along ostensible ethnic lines whether it is a viable designation or not; it validates the notion of ethnic exclusivity and its relation to nationality, and can in turn be used to manipulate certain legal structures as they affect the group.

So, this can only be a good thing. If I am 'officially' a member of the ethnic group "Scottish", the newly arrived Abdul and his sprawling brood cannot ever be the same as I am; indeed, they must be classified differently. Such are the intangible walls we must keep on building between ourselves and these people whom we cannot for the moment repel with great big physical walls like those with which our forebears often had the sense to mark their territory.

Astrid Runa
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 07:59 PM
That is absolutely absurd. Scottish people are of the same racial make-up a those of Britain and much of the rest of Europe. But what can we expect from a regime that worships the Jew Franz Boas and his devious disciples.


Maybe we don't want to identify as "British" or "English". Ever think of it like that?

Hamar Fox
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Maybe we don't want to identify as "British" or "English". Ever think of it like that?

Who said Scottish people should identify as English? :|

BjrK
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Ah, but I am the son of an English mother and a Scotish father.....



.....WHAT DO I PUT?:-O


:D

Imho you should classify yourself as scottish then of they accept you. Since the woman marry into the mans clan so to speak. This is how most men consider it. A swedish woman mating with a non-swedish male will never be considered Swedish and have left our people in my book.

If she mated with a groid she can go live in the djungle, good riddance. ;)

Astrid Runa
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 08:36 PM
People often confuse us as English. Those who have no real sense of Geography. That's like calling a Canadian American...

Hamar Fox
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 08:41 PM
People often confuse us as English. Those who have no real sense of Geography. That's like calling a Canadian American...

People (Americans) confuse you with the Irish. Nobody confuses you with the English. Does people confusing Scots and Irish (which actually happens) make you mad, or is it specifically being considered English that makes you feel sick?

GeistFaust
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 08:43 PM
Yeah alot of Americans get Scottish and Irish confused they are close cousins though not entirely unrelated. Also I know the British had some heavy influences in the south and eastern parts of Scotland which would shape the history and culture of that country. That said Scotland is sort of a mix between Irish and English technically if you want to look at it from a genetic point of view.

Astrid Runa
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 09:55 PM
People (Americans) confuse you with the Irish. Nobody confuses you with the English. Does people confusing Scots and Irish (which actually happens) make you mad, or is it specifically being considered English that makes you feel sick?

I've had people ask me which part of England is Scotland in.
I don't mind being confused with the Irish. Just when idiots ask me if Scotland is anywhere near London, I get quite annoyed.
And I've never had an American confuse me with an Irishwoman.

GeistFaust
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 10:05 PM
If you are from the North East Astrid Luna most likely you have a significant amount of Gaelic/Norse ancestry so I can understand the perspective you have. That said Scotland is a very diverse country if not the most diverse in all of the British Isles. You have Anglo-Saxon/Danish influences in the South that mixed with the Strathclyde Britons in the southwest. You have the Gaelic/Norse admixtures. You have the French Norman backgrounds although they are a bit rarer. Not to mention the various different Celtic clan affiliations so overall Ireland and England don't have quite the mix and diversity Scotland has.

Untersberger
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 10:19 PM
A swedish woman mating with a non-swedish male will never be considered Swedish and have left our people in my book.

I'm wondering your view if a Swedish woman marries a German or Dutchman or a Dane or Norwegian but the children are born and raised in Sweden. Are they still not Swedes in your book or is your viewpoint directed to a Swedish woman when mating with a Non-Germanic male from the Non-European nations like Turkey or other parts of the Middle East..

I guess this is belonging to another thread but was just wondering although I would doubt seriously you would have a problem with a Swedish woman having children with another Germanic?

Angus
Sunday, August 7th, 2011, 11:30 PM
People (Americans) confuse you with the Irish. Nobody confuses you with the English. Does people confusing Scots and Irish (which actually happens) make you mad, or is it specifically being considered English that makes you feel sick?

How exactly do you know what the Americans think? :confused
I've been confused for English before, never Irish. While my friend has been mistaken for Irish. Point is, it's a case-by-case basis. I don't see why you're always so quick to jump to the conclusion that we dislike you English as a whole.


Who said Scottish people should identify as English?
No one, thank the gods. Like Astrid said, when it comes to Scotland the majority of people scratch their heads and automaticity think of the UK as simply being ENGLAND.

Naglfari
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 12:09 AM
People (Americans) confuse you with the Irish. Nobody confuses you with the English. Does people confusing Scots and Irish (which actually happens) make you mad, or is it specifically being considered English that makes you feel sick?

Nah we don't confuse the two.

The Scots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEbn-Hh8UTg&feature=related

The Irish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjYHYdfcmOA&feature=related

GeistFaust
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 12:38 AM
I think Americans generally get the Ulster Scots confused with the Irish very often though.

Hamar Fox
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 08:47 AM
How exactly do you know what the Americans think? :confused

I'm very bright and I found a way.

But I mean how smart do you have to be to notice and count the times Americans say a Scottish accent is 'Irish'? If I could be bothered, I'd find an example for you now. In fact, I'm actually going to put the time in, because I'm considerate that way and I care:

j68rlVQL-Qc&lc=0V3r3j39E6eo--YjMkX-uVan1XiSxXtWi4-sRD5a7WA&feature=inbox

So you'll probably want to skip to 14:29. Pay special attention at 15:06. If you concentrate your mental powers of clairvoyance, you should be able to tap into his deepest subconscious and find some indication he thought a Scottish was an Irish. Or maybe this ability is unique to me :shrug

But the American in the vid isn't a retard by any stretch. He's also of Scottish descent. If he made the mistake, then pretty much every American dumber and less Scottish than he probably also makes the same mistake.


I don't see why you're always so quick to jump to the conclusion that we dislike you English as a whole.

Probably because it's all certain Scottish members talk about.

Einarr
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 09:55 AM
Imho you should classify yourself as scottish then of they accept you. Since the woman marry into the mans clan so to speak. This is how most men consider it. A swedish woman mating with a non-swedish male will never be considered Swedish and have left our people in my book.

If she mated with a groid she can go live in the djungle, good riddance. ;)

What about a Swedish man "mating" with a non-Swedish woman, has he left your people as well?

Sigurd
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 11:02 AM
Since the woman marry into the mans clan so to speak. This is how most men consider it.

At any rate, most Scots probably wouldn't snub at you if you were a non-Scot male marrying a Scottish girl and proceeded to wear her family/clan tartan, either, so to speak; as you're still sort of "marrying into the clan". ;)

Angus
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 03:48 PM
But I mean how smart do you have to be to notice and count the times Americans say a Scottish accent is 'Irish'? If I could be bothered, I'd find an example for you now. In fact, I'm actually going to put the time in, because I'm considerate that way and I care:

So you'll probably want to skip to 14:29. Pay special attention at 15:06. If you concentrate your mental powers of clairvoyance, you should be able to tap into his deepest subconscious and find some indication he thought a Scottish was an Irish. Or maybe this ability is unique to me :shrug

Ok, so what you're saying is that you're going off of what one single American YouTube blogger has to say? That’s probably not the best idea and is quite laughable that you even attempted to use him as a means to base your reply off of. Perhaps you need to go pay a visit to America before you form an opinion again. Here’s another thought: If you can find an American here at Skadi that wants to talk to you, go talk to them about the subject. That way you’re actually gaining information from an individual who has more creditability than that of “The Amazing Atheist.” It’ll also make you look better next time. ;)


But the American in the vid isn't a retard by any stretch. He's also of Scottish descent. If he made the mistake, then pretty much every American dumber and less Scottish than he probably also makes the same mistake.
Most Americans have lost their European culture throughout the years. This guy in the video is clearly one of those people. I'd be surprised if he would be able to point to Scotland on a map without having to quickly Google the answer beforehand.


Probably because it's all certain Scottish members talk about.
Oh is that so? Perhaps you can fill me in, because there are only about 3 other Scots here and I always find time to read their posts. The funny thing is -- it’s actually you, to be specific, who brings us Scots up and finds a way to complain about us.

Astrid Runa
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 05:20 PM
I'm very bright and I found a way.

But I mean how smart do you have to be to notice and count the times Americans say a Scottish accent is 'Irish'? If I could be bothered, I'd find an example for you now. In fact, I'm actually going to put the time in, because I'm considerate that way and I care:

j68rlVQL-Qc&lc=0V3r3j39E6eo--YjMkX-uVan1XiSxXtWi4-sRD5a7WA&feature=inbox

So you'll probably want to skip to 14:29. Pay special attention at 15:06. If you concentrate your mental powers of clairvoyance, you should be able to tap into his deepest subconscious and find some indication he thought a Scottish was an Irish. Or maybe this ability is unique to me :shrug

But the American in the vid isn't a retard by any stretch. He's also of Scottish descent. If he made the mistake, then pretty much every American dumber and less Scottish than he probably also makes the same mistake.



Probably because it's all certain Scottish members talk about.

That's your proof? Not one single American I speak to has EVER confused me with someone from Ireland, or said that I sound Irish. Ever.

Certain Scottish members? What about the English members who hit out at is Scots, huh? The English should know that hitting out at Scots is not a very bright idea, pal.

Svartljos
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 05:32 PM
As a (North) American, I can assure you, it is common to befuddle and confuse the terms. British, Scottish, and Irish, English, Welsh, and the UK are terms which cause much confusion, especially in the USA. I have seen people confuse Scottish and Irish before. I have also seen someone try to find Ireland on a map and point to Italy, so, I am sure it happens.

The English are not commonly mistaken for Irish or Scottish or what have you though (well, people who speak with a southern or RP sounding accent at least), but it's common to use British as a synonym for English.

Eliite
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 07:55 PM
I can say from both online and personal experience that Americans do indeed generally have the accent deciphering ability of a Shetland pony. A German friend once had some "in Soviet Russia food orders you" joke shouted at him while ordering some food in an America fast food place, I think all of our IQ's were lowered slightly through sheer contamination on that trip..

Stanley
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 08:21 PM
I can say from both online and personal experience that Americans do indeed generally have the accent deciphering ability of a Shetland pony. A German friend once had some "in Soviet Russia food orders you" joke shouted at him while ordering some food in an America fast food place, I think all of our IQ's were lowered slightly through sheer contamination on that trip..

How many of your posts have had the sole purpose of bashing Americans? Find a more constructive obsession.

Auricomous
Monday, August 8th, 2011, 08:54 PM
Scottish people are to be officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group under new guidelines for monitoring racial and ethnic equality.

The Scots, the English and the Welsh, will now be able to affirm their national identity on official forms. Census forms and job applications have until now only allowed groupings like Asians, Chinese and Africans to specify their ethnicity.

The move should result in closer monitoring of how Scots are treated. It is also expected to make job hunting fairer enabling greater racial equality in the workplace. The new move will also crackdown on public sector employers to promote racial equality. Private companies will also come under close scrutiny.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3387749.stm

http://www.ansgeulaiche.co.uk/images/scot-and-macaig1-c.jpg

This is cool. Whenever we fill out "optional" ethnic statistics attached to ANY paperwork we have to fill out, it always has "African American, Asian, Pacific Islander, Arabic, etc." and even now has subraces of hispanics listed! But then they always have the singular choce of "Caucasian/White (non-hispanic)" as a choice.

I have been getting offended by this for a long time now, and whever they have the option "other", I take it and list an extensive and specific description of my ethnic Identity, and often encapsulate it with the opposing politically correct generalization of "Northwest European American" after my full description.

It is bullcrap that they are allowed to encapsulate so many different ethnicities and genetic classes under the term "white", INCLUDING the Jews, Italians, etc. I don't know how it is in Europe, but in the US, being white means having no heritage but the products we consume and that we are all the same bunched in with the immoral and heartless likes of the jews (or at least that is what they want to convince us and the world).

Also, why do they still refer to white people as caucasian? If we did that to other races, the blacks would be called Negroids and the Asians would be called Mongoloids, which is also what people call downs syndrome people.

Arrgghh!

Hamar Fox
Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 08:40 AM
Ok, so what you're saying is that you're going off of what one single American YouTube blogger has to say?

I was a little frightened you'd reply with this, but I thought to myself, "Nah, there's no way in hell he'd do it." Looks like my fears were realised.

So please point to where I said my entire conception of the issue was based on this one instance of Scottish-Irish confusion. It's -- get this -- an example. I'm not going to spend hours, probably days and weeks in fact, tirelessly searching through vlog after vlog, or forum post after forum post to find a second, third, fourth example. I used one example to illustrate my point. I've seen dozens of like incidences, but my memory isn't so immaculate I can recall exactly when and where.


That’s probably not the best idea and is quite laughable that you even attempted to use him as a means to base your reply off of.

Yeah, I thought there was no way you'd assume that the guy wasn't a mere example, rather than my entire case. Like I said, I have too much faith in people sometimes.


Perhaps you need to go pay a visit to America before you form an opinion again. Here’s another thought: If you can find an American here at Skadi that wants to talk to you, go talk to them about the subject. That way you’re actually gaining information from an individual who has more creditability than that of “The Amazing Atheist.” It’ll also make you look better next time. ;)

Oh boy, this condescension really looks ridiculous now in light of my (needless, to most people) above clarification. Ouch, fella. Just ouch.

Btw, if I were relying on TAA for facts about the world, then his 'credability [sic]' might be remotely relevant, but obviously when I'm taking about mistakes Americans often make, the 'credability [sic]' of those Americans doesn't make the slightest difference. Unless you're saying TAA isn't a credile representative of himself.


Oh is that so? Perhaps you can fill me in, because there are only about 3 other Scots here and I always find time to read their posts. The funny thing is -- it’s actually you, to be specific, who brings us Scots up and finds a way to complain about us.

The only other posts I've made about Scots lately are these:



I voted Celts. They're fully NW European and I already have some minor Celtic ancestry that I know about, not to mention the natives my Anglo-Saxon ancestors probably mated with. I also have a favourite second cousin who's half Scottish and I already do accept her. I wouldn't accept any other group, though.


It means one parent is Scottish and one isn't. Scots are no less a group than any other nation. If you can say half Italian, half Polish etc. then you can say half Scottish.



All groups are the same. No nationality/ethnicity on Earth has just one tribe in its genetic history.



Neither Celts nor Germanics are a racial group. But both are NW European and hence are racially similar or overlap genetically.



It's not something I've ever done. On racial issues, I only ever refer to NW Europeans.

Whoops. They seem pretty pro-Scottish to me. I mean, please, if you want to try 'pwn' someone, you might want to try your luck with someone pwnable. That isn't me.

Hamar Fox
Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 08:59 AM
That's your proof? Not one single American I speak to has EVER confused me with someone from Ireland, or said that I sound Irish. Ever.

No. I don't know how it goes down in Scotland, but the rest of the world like to use examples rather than find every single example in existence of a particular phenomenon.


Certain Scottish members?

That would be you, yes.


What about the English members who hit out at is Scots, huh?

They only really exist in your head. Whatever thing you have in mind that might pertain to reality no doubt was a reflex action by an English member who'd just read one of your posts, I imagine.


The English should know that hitting out at Scots is not a very bright idea, pal.

I can't lie that this sent chills through me. But sarcasm aside, I'm going to have to ask "Why?"

Edie
Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 09:41 AM
I always know when some indignant over-sensitive Scottish bloviating is coming; it has all the tedious predictability of the same angry victim noise from our cherished racial minorities. Yes, there are some geographically challenged Yanks who call the UK England, and refer to Hugh Grant's accent as 'British', but it is to be expected, really. Why it spurs legion chip-on-the-shoulder would-be Celts to anger is quite beyond me. I find it embarrassing, actually.

There are really two Scotlands: Highland Scotland where all the kilts-bagpipes-Gaelic clichés have their origins, and the industrious Lowlands of dour Presbyterians and the Scottish Enlightenment. The former is often associated with Ireland, and the latter with England -- which is quite appropriate really, given the provenance of the people who make up those respective areas.

The Highland culture is the most recognisable outside the UK itself, so the Irish association wins out, I'm afraid. Ironically, it was opportunistic Lowlanders who appropriated the culture of the people they had previously referred to as 'wild Irish' and turned it into a symbol of all Scotland. It created a false solidarity between Highlander and Lowlander as cultural bothers against the manifest evils of the English, when in fact it was the Lowlanders who had always been the main persecutors of the Highlanders, not the English. This really is a perfect illustration of Scottish self-obsession: the national tendency is to think that everybody is as against us as we are them, but in reality, nobody cares. Honestly, English people don't think about us all that much. The Scots who are unfathomably convinced that they do put me in mind of a deluded little mouse trying to annoy a sleeping dog that just doesn't care.

Forgive my irreverence, but I was once called an "Edinburgh Sassenach" by someone from Fife, of all places, and ever since I have found it quite impossible to take such people seriously.

Ward
Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 09:02 PM
I can say from both online and personal experience that Americans do indeed generally have the accent deciphering ability of a Shetland pony.

Then I suppose you're able to discern between Mississippian and Texan, New Englander and New Yorker, Midwesterner and Westerner, and so forth? If not, you yourself must have the accent deciphering ability of a Shetland pony.

Americans are certainly a degenerated lot these days, but not because they have trouble distinguishing between the hodgepodge of fruity-sounding accents in the British Isles. :D

Eliite
Wednesday, August 10th, 2011, 11:04 PM
Americans are certainly a degenerated lot these days, but not because they have trouble distinguishing between the hodgepodge of fruity-sounding accents in the British Isles.

Oh?


A German friend once had some "in Soviet Russia food orders you" joke shouted at him while ordering some food in an American fast food place

That's funny, Germany wasn't located in the British Isles last time I checked a map. It wasn't located in Russia either granted, but then I'm not familiar with the American education system.

And you haven't heard a fruity accent until you've heard the word herb pronounced "erb" by a non-native French speaker ;)

Hamar Fox
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 12:24 AM
Then I suppose you're able to discern between Mississippian and Texan, New Englander and New Yorker, Midwesterner and Westerner, and so forth? If not, you yourself must have the accent deciphering ability of a Shetland pony.

Quite a few US accents are easily identifiable. New York, easy -- although most British couldn't distinguish the various boroughs or tell the difference between 'Noo Yawk' and 'Noo Joisey' accents. Texas/Deep South, super easy. New Orleans, super easy. Boston, super easy, especially since they're the only Americans who pronounce words ending in 'er/ar' like we do. US-Canadian border states, pretty easy. They pronounce 'about' as 'aboat' and 'house' as 'hoase' just as Canadians do. Some talk like the people in Fargo. As for Mid-West, West Coast and New England, most of us probably can't recognise them. I suppose these are the more generic, formal accents.

Asking us to be able to distinguish between two adjacent states isn't really a fair challenge, since we're talking about the difference between countries (Germany/Russia, Scotland/Ireland) which if analogised to the US would be comparable to distinguishing the accents of America's basic regions, and not differences between states within those basic regions.


Americans are certainly a degenerated lot these days, but not because they have trouble distinguishing between the hodgepodge of fruity-sounding accents in the British Isles. :D

But the thing is that there aren't any accents that could be considered 'fruity' outside of SE England, and a huge chunk of SE English accents also can't be considered fruity (e.g. London and Essex).

Stanley
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 05:50 AM
Quite a few US accents are easily identifiable. New York, easy -- although most British couldn't distinguish the various boroughs or tell the difference between 'Noo Yawk' and 'Noo Joisey' accents. Texas/Deep South, super easy. New Orleans, super easy. Boston, super easy, especially since they're the only Americans who pronounce words ending in 'er/ar' like we do. US-Canadian border states, pretty easy. They pronounce 'about' as 'aboat' and 'house' as 'hoase' just as Canadians do. Some talk like the people in Fargo. As for Mid-West, West Coast and New England, most of us probably can't recognise them. I suppose these are the more generic, formal accents.

It may be easy for you, but you can't speak for the whole of your nation any more than I can. For some reason I feel my listing the differences between British Isles accents wouldn't sway your opinion of Americans' accent deciphering abilities. And if the different American accents are so easily identifiable, none of you should have any excuse in not being able to tell them apart. ;)

You also have to consider that European exposure to the US is much greater than the other way around, so it is to be expected that we'd have a harder time with your accents. I state that fact with no pleasure whatsoever, by the way. It's an unfortunate reality.

Anyway, I can't believe we're using an anecdote about a single moron to represent a nation of 300 million.

Goomer
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 07:25 AM
Scottish people are to be officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group under new guidelines for monitoring racial and ethnic equality.

The Scots, the English and the Welsh, will now be able to affirm their national identity on official forms. Census forms and job applications have until now only allowed groupings like Asians, Chinese and Africans to specify their ethnicity.

The move should result in closer monitoring of how Scots are treated. It is also expected to make job hunting fairer enabling greater racial equality in the workplace. The new move will also crackdown on public sector employers to promote racial equality. Private companies will also come under close scrutiny.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3387749.stm

http://www.ansgeulaiche.co.uk/images/scot-and-macaig1-c.jpg

I think this is wonderful.

Ward
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 07:35 AM
That's funny, Germany wasn't located in the British Isles last time I checked a map. It wasn't located in Russia either granted, but then I'm not familiar with the American education system.

Your little anecdote notwithstanding, the discussion you chimed in on with your worthless post had to do with the tendency among Americans to be unable to readily distinguish between the various ethnic groups inhabiting the British Isles. I guess you missed the obvious point of what I said. So to further the point I was trying to make, I’ll grant you that British fast-food workers are probably on average better at recognizing German and Russian accents than their American counterparts. I say this not because I think British fast-food workers are more culturally refined, but for the simple fact that given Britain's much closer geographic proximity to Russia and Germany, they are bound to have far more exposure to German and Russian accents.

In fact, if Britons were not more in tune with the various British and European accents than Americans, you all might as well just call it quits. Truth be told though, I really don't give a damn about this debate at all. I was just struck by the comical combination of arrogance and idiocy on display in your comment.



Asking us to be able to distinguish between two adjacent states isn't really a fair challenge, since we're talking about the difference between countries (Germany/Russia, Scotland/Ireland) which if analogised to the US would be comparable to distinguishing the accents of America's basic regions, and not differences between states within those basic regions.

I'm a relatively well-educated and well-traveled man, so of course I can distinguish between the primary accents on the British Isles and continental Europe. However, with respect to the accent-deciphering abilities of the British and American masses, considering the amount of American TV and cinema that British people consume as opposed to vice-versa, I think the "challenge" is more than fair. If Americans can disparaged for having trouble identifying the accents of the British and their geographic neighbors, then a Brit can be disparaged for not being able to distinguish between a Texan and Mississippian.

I should also add that the American accent seems to have been heavily influenced by the waves of Scandinavian, Dutch, and especially German immigrants, making it a bit more unique than other English-speaking accents. In contrast, the various British accents, along with Australian and New Zealand, all seem to have a similar "something" to them (I can't quite put my finger on it), probably because they haven't experienced much non-British influence. Perhaps you're oblivious to some of the subtle similarities between them?

But whatever. As I said above, the only reason I even bothered posting in this thread was to address the exquisitely dumb comment I came across.

Goomer
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 08:13 AM
Most Americans have lost their European culture throughout the years.



This is true. But, it is true for pretty much anyone of any ethnic group that have been here in the States for any length of time. Whichever culture you come from gets submerged within about 50 years.

American culture, as it were, is the culture of consumerism.

My own distaste for many aspects of our culture here in the states lead me here, because at least coming here has put me in touch with a way of thinking that is a little more Eurocentric.

Why is there so much arguing on this thread, anyway? It sure doesn't seem like a topic that needs to be debated. Shouldn't every nationality/ethnic group be recognized as such?

BTW: I can find Scotland on a map. I can find most nations on a map, actually. I admit, there is a stronger similarity--to my ears at least--between an Irish and Scottish accent, than there is between a Scottish and English accent. I also can usually discern the difference between a person speaking with a cockney accent versus one using the "Queen's English"

Hamar Fox
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 09:41 AM
I'm a relatively well-educated and well-traveled man, so of course I can distinguish between the primary accents on the British Isles and continental Europe. However, with respect to the accent-deciphering abilities of the British and American masses, considering the amount of American TV and cinema that British people consume as opposed to vice-versa, I think the "challenge" is more than fair.

But there are quite a few Scots and Irish in US media. Every American has heard how Groundskeeper Willie, Scottie from Star Trek, and the characters in Braveheart and Highlander (however spurious their authenticity) talk. As for Irish, they appear in various shows and films, though off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific examples. Americans certainly see/hear more of Scots and Irish than we do of people from Louisiana or even Texas. The only regional US accent we're overexposed to is that of New York.

Plus, it's not pure media or real-life exposure that defines the ability. My mother can tell between Glasgow and Edinburgh accents, even though she's never been or met anyone from there (that I know of). I've never listened to them side by side, but it's all Scottish to me. More impressive, my grandmother once correctly identified a Dane by accent alone. She just knew it. And she's one of the most insular people I ever knew (she left the British Isles for a week once in her entire life, bless her).


If Americans can disparaged for having trouble identifying the accents of the British and their geographic neighbors, then a Brit can be disparaged for not being able to distinguish between a Texan and Mississippian.

If I heard them side by side, I could probably guess which was which. But since I've never heard a Mississippian (or at least never known the person I was hearing was from Mississippi), I wouldn't have any basic model to work with.


I should also add that the American accent seems to have been heavily influenced by the waves of Scandinavian, Dutch, and especially German immigrants, making it a bit more unique than other English-speaking accents. In contrast, the various British accents, along with Australian and New Zealand, all seem to have a similar "something" to them (I can't quite put my finger on it), probably because they haven't experienced much non-British influence. Perhaps you're oblivious to some of the subtle similarities between them?

Disagree. To my ears, there's a bigger difference between Newcastle and Liverpool, Manchester and Essex, Devon and Orkney, Hampshire and Belfast than between any two accents in the US (even New Orleans and New York). There are similarities between bordering counties. Lancashire and Yorkshire accents aren't that different (although there definitely are differences). Devon and Somerset aren't that different. Durham and Newcastle/Sunderland have similar elements etc. But I definitely don't think there are many underlying elements that stretch to all areas of the Isles. I don't actually think Americans are exposed to many of the non-standard accents in Britain. The Beatles were the only exposure you had to the Liverpool accent. Sean Bean is the only exposure Americans have had to the (South) Yorkshire accent etc. Didn't Cheryl Cole get sacked from American Idol or whatever reality show for having an indecipherable accent?

Australian and New Zealand accents are a slight adaptation of accents of the original East London and Essex settlers.


But whatever. As I said above, the only reason I even bothered posting in this thread was to address the exquisitely dumb comment I came across.

Well, the dumbest comments in this thread were made when two Scottish people both claimed Americans confuse the Scottish with the English more frequently (in fact infinitely more frequently) than they confuse Scottish with the Irish.

Sigurd
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 11:31 AM
As for Irish, they appear in various shows and films, though off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific examples

How could you have forgotten about Father Ted? It's the single most funny and most stereotypical self-parody of the Irish. :P


The only regional US accent we're overexposed to is that of New York.

Does it surprise you? Many of the TV shows, especially the sitcoms are written and produced by New York Jews. Considering how they're 12% of the population of the city and at 972,000 the highest number of Jews in any community, it is quite literally New York.

What is even better in many of those series is that it's New York Jews writing a serious where New York Jews feature quite prominently, whether it be as actors and/or as characters, Friends was a particularly notorious example thereof. :oanieyes


My mother can tell between Glasgow and Edinburgh accents, even though she's never been or met anyone from there (that I know of).

That is pretty impressive, I've met one or the other Scot who has lost the ability to distinguish between the two as they are levelled as we speak. Actual Scotland is also blurry as to where accent ends and dialect begins; this was especially true in Aberdeen where Scottish Standard English of Aberdonian provenience and Doric Scots mingled. ;)


Well, the dumbest comments in this thread were made when two Scottish people both claimed Americans confuse the Scottish with the English more frequently (in fact infinitely more frequently) than they confuse Scottish with the Irish.

If that is their personal experience, and they have themselves been mistaken for English more often than for Irish, that hardly makes it a dumb comment. American perception of Scots in America may differ greatly from American perception of Scots in the UK or indeed English perception of American perception of Scots. :)

Hamar Fox
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 12:38 PM
How could you have forgotten about Father Ted? It's the single most funny and most stereotypical self-parody of the Irish. :P

Yeah, but I don't know if it airs in the US. In fact, I don't really know what non-US shows air over there at all. But I think there are enough Scots in popular US shows (The Simpsons, Star Trek etc.) for Scottish to be a fairly familiar accent to them.


Does it surprise you? Many of the TV shows, especially the sitcoms are written and produced by New York Jews. Considering how they're 12% of the population of the city and at 972,000 the highest number of Jews in any community, it is quite literally New York.

No, it doesn't surprise me. But the accent itself is incredibly distinctive. It seems to be stronger among Jews and Italian-Americans (and there's a slight difference between the two -- the Italians sounding overall less whiny, but more aggressive). On the show Rescue Me, Irish Americans also have it, but I suspect it's highly influenced by Jewish and Italian immigrants. Tons of movies are set in LA, but I've never really noticed an LA accent.


If that is their personal experience, and they have themselves been mistaken for English more often than for Irish, that hardly makes it a dumb comment.

But the point-blank denial of a widely known phenomenon, (deliberate) misinterpretation of an example I provided as being my entire case, and the subsequent condescension were all fairly dumb things.

Astrid Runa
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 12:54 PM
I always know when some indignant over-sensitive Scottish bloviating is coming; it has all the tedious predictability of the same angry victim noise from our cherished racial minorities. Yes, there are some geographically challenged Yanks who call the UK England, and refer to Hugh Grant's accent as 'British', but it is to be expected, really. Why it spurs legion chip-on-the-shoulder would-be Celts to anger is quite beyond me. I find it embarrassing, actually.

There are really two Scotlands: Highland Scotland where all the kilts-bagpipes-Gaelic clichés have their origins, and the industrious Lowlands of dour Presbyterians and the Scottish Enlightenment. The former is often associated with Ireland, and the latter with England -- which is quite appropriate really, given the provenance of the people who make up those respective areas.

The Highland culture is the most recognisable outside the UK itself, so the Irish association wins out, I'm afraid. Ironically, it was opportunistic Lowlanders who appropriated the culture of the people they had previously referred to as 'wild Irish' and turned it into a symbol of all Scotland. It created a false solidarity between Highlander and Lowlander as cultural bothers against the manifest evils of the English, when in fact it was the Lowlanders who had always been the main persecutors of the Highlanders, not the English. This really is a perfect illustration of Scottish self-obsession: the national tendency is to think that everybody is as against us as we are them, but in reality, nobody cares. Honestly, English people don't think about us all that much. The Scots who are unfathomably convinced that they do put me in mind of a deluded little mouse trying to annoy a sleeping dog that just doesn't care.

Forgive my irreverence, but I was once called an "Edinburgh Sassenach" by someone from Fife, of all places, and ever since I have found it quite impossible to take such people seriously.

You were called a sassenach? Oh well, boo hoo. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for those who use what one person called them as an excuse to hit out at everyone. Do you even know what sassenach means? And for your information, not all Fifers are the same. I hold no harsh feelings for those who are not from Fife. In fact, I only hold harsh feelings for those who throw insults at me, my family or my friends. So don't let what one uneducated twonk who clearly doesn't know what the word "sassenach" means cloud your views of all.

Ingvaeonic
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Scottish people are to be officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group under new guidelines for monitoring racial and ethnic equality.

The Scots, the English and the Welsh, will now be able to affirm their national identity on official forms. Census forms and job applications have until now only allowed groupings like Asians, Chinese and Africans to specify their ethnicity.

The move should result in closer monitoring of how Scots are treated. It is also expected to make job hunting fairer enabling greater racial equality in the workplace. The new move will also crackdown on public sector employers to promote racial equality. Private companies will also come under close scrutiny.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3387749.stm

http://www.ansgeulaiche.co.uk/images/scot-and-macaig1-c.jpg

This raises the question of whether such an entity as the British nation exists, or whether the UK is a composite of four different nations. British is not a term used to describe an ethnic group or language: British is the description of the nationality of the various peoples of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as citizens of the British state.

Edie
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 02:47 PM
You were called a sassenach? Oh well, boo hoo. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for those who use what one person called them as an excuse to hit out at everyone. Do you even know what sassenach means? And for your information, not all Fifers are the same. I hold no harsh feelings for those who are not from Fife. In fact, I only hold harsh feelings for those who throw insults at me, my family or my friends. So don't let what one uneducated twonk who clearly doesn't know what the word "sassenach" means cloud your views of all.

I tacked that comment on at the end as a bit of flippancy; it was not meant to be taken seriously as the actual reason for my opinion of the belligerent anti-English Scots I describe. I mentioned where the person was from to show how silly and arbitrary is the division that these ultra-Scots like to make between themselves and the rest of us; someone from Fife really shouldn't be self-identifying as more 'Scottish' than people from the very proximal Edinburgh.

And the thing is, the person who said it probably has a better understanding of the Sassenach label than do most Scots, who mistakenly believe that it pertains only to English people, when in fact Gaelic speakers use it to refer to English people and anglophone (particularly Lowland) Scots alike. What I find most amusing is that I'm not even from Edinburgh, I just lived there while I was at the (largely SE Englander attended) university. But I find that when you associate with anything 'English', you can't help attracting such epithets from these bizarre people. They're like the self-appointed Scot police, making sure that Scots affect an über-Scottish persona and basically annoy the crap out of everyone else in the country and make us all look like idiots.

Northumbria
Sunday, January 8th, 2012, 07:17 PM
The Scots, the English and the Welsh, will now be able to affirm their national identity on official forms.

At last! :)