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jesusfreak
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Why is it that some people are saying that christianity is not a religion for Europe?

Waarnemer
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Why is it that some people are saying that christianity is not a religion for Europe?
Quite simple, because it's a jewish religion.

Taras Bulba
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 09:48 PM
Quite simple, because it's a jewish religion.

No it isnt. Just within 20 years of Jesus' death the church became an European institution, and by the time St. Paul wrote his letters the vast majority of Christians were Europeans. All its major theologians were European, all its major developments occured in Europe.


http://www.stormfront.org/whitenat/religion.html

The West and Christianity Synonymous

It is a fact, which Christians will regard with satisfaction and some atheists may deplore, that Western civilization in the sense that the great majority of the people belonging to it (though never, at any time, ALL of them) believed implicitly in the truth of the Christian revelation. That religious unanimity was for a long time so nearly complete that, after the fall of the Roman Empire and the evanescence of hopes for its restoration, we of the West regarded our religion as the bond that united us and distinguished us from the rest of the human species.

During the Middle Ages, our ancestors occupied the greater part of Europe, and, until they discovered the American continents, they lived only in Europe, but despite that geographical unity, they did not generally refer to themselves as the Europeans. For all practical purposes, furthermore, our ancestors belonged to the same division of the White race: they, like the true Greeks and the true Romans before them, were all members of the great race that we now call Indo-European or Aryan, but they had in their languages no word to designate their blood relationship and biological unity. Thus, when they referred to the unity of which they were always conscious as something transcending the constantly shifting territorial and political divisions of Europe, they called themselves Christendom. And for many centuries that word was adequate and misled no one.

For many centuries the West was Christendom and its civilization was indubitably Christian: that, whether you like it or not, is an historical fact. There is a complementary historical fact that was less obvious at the time and that even thoughtful men overlooked or tried to ignore until the events of the past two decades made it indubitable: Christianity is a religion of the West, and, for all practical purposes, ONLY of the west. It is not, as its polemical adversaries so often charge, a Semitic cult, for it has never commanded the adhesion of any considerable number of [Semites], and it is not, as Christians once generally believed, a universal religion, for experience has now proved that it cannot be successfully exported to populations that are not Indo-European.

Milesian
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Why is it that some people are saying that christianity is not a religion for Europe?

They believe that Christianity is essentially Jewish in origin, and in their desire to remove poisonous Jewish influence from their lives they despise Christianity and believe in ignoring 2000 years of European Christendom in order to revert to the paganistic practises of our ancient ancestors. In this romantised vision, they believe they will return to some kind of Aryan purity.

I understand what the are trying to do, but their thinking is flawed.
They must ignore some facts in order to square this line of thinking with reason, including the facts that Christianity is essentially a rejection of what Judaism had become, Europe thrived under Christianity for millenia and in that time surpassed all other peoples, that they are turning on Christianity just like the Jews have been encouraging them and decieving them to do for centuries, etc.

They are mostly not malicious, they sincerely believe they are doing the right thing and are even frustrated at us "poor decieved Christians" for being unable to see what appears to be obvious to them.

Ultimately, they have mistaken a symptom for a solution

Waarnemer
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 10:05 PM
No it isnt. Just within 20 years of Jesus' death the church became an European institution, and by the time St. Paul wrote his letters the vast majority of Christians were Europeans. All its major theologians were European, all its major developments occured in Europe.
O yes it is. :D

Look christianity is more than the new testament, the old testament is also connected with christianity. Whit all respect I don't think you know the bibel very good. The new testament is a jewish book, look to what paul writes about the jews. Jezus says in the beginning that he is on earth only for the jewish people...

jesusfreak
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 10:25 PM
What do you know about the bible? You can't even spell Jesus right. You don't have your facts straight. The Jews didn't even know their own word. They did not see that Jesus fufilled all 206 prophecies of the Old Testimate. They still don't. Christianity and the Jewish faith are two different religions. Jesus is the Son of the only Living God. All other Gods are False Idols. What do you believe?

Skando-naivian-Girl
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 12:24 AM
Why is it that some people are saying that christianity is not a religion for Europe?
It didn't originate there but that doesn't mean it can't be considered "European". In terms of impact Christianity was the greatest force in shaping Europe.

Christianity is a missionary religion. Unlike Judaism which you are basically born into. So I don't see how one can say Christianity can't be considered "European". It may have originated in the land of the Hebrews but a lot of it's evolution took place in Europe. Just take a look at the holidays of Christmas and Easter. Would you regard them as Jewish?

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 12:55 AM
O yes it is. :D

Ok lets see what you got.



Look christianity is more than the new testament, the old testament is also connected with christianity.

Yes it is, and your point is?


"This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians - that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression. Judaism is not the religion of the Bible."
--Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser Judaism and the Christian Predicament p. 59



Whit all respect I don't think you know the bibel very good.

I certainly do know alot about the Bible, and for decency sakes Ill ingore your poor spelling.



The new testament is a jewish book,

No it isnt, unless you can find some Rabbi or other Jewish scholar who saids it is.



look to what paul writes about the jews.

You mean like this quote from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians:

"The Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us, do not please God, and they are adversaries to all men, prohibiting us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, to fill up their sin always: for the wrath of God has come upon them to the end."



Jezus says in the beginning that he is on earth only for the jewish people...

Jesus states hes come for the lost tribes of Israel, not for the Jews. Even the Jewish Alamanac admits this:
"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews may not have been Jews at all..."

Sorry you failed to convince me that Christianity is Jewish.

Waarnemer
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 07:26 PM
What do you know about the bible? You can't even spell Jesus right.
almost everything ;) ! LOL sorry for my english, I know even my french is better than my english... And that says a lot about my english...


(A) They did not see that Jesus fufilled all 206 prophecies of the Old Testimate. They still don't. (B) Christianity and the Jewish faith are two different religions.
I don't see how A proves that B is correct.


Jesus is the Son of the only Living God.
Prove it.


"This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians - that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression. Judaism is not the religion of the Bible."
--Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser Judaism and the Christian Predicament p. 59

And? what kind of proof gives the rabbi? I don't see any proof... But i am certain that he gives the proof in his book, but a don't have it in my possession... If you can be so kind to give some proof to me...


and for decency sakes Ill ingore your poor spelling.
Zucht, wat zeur je nu over mijn spelling?! Ga liever in op het inhoudelijke van mijn tekst. Bedankt!

I don't think you can read this...
Look in daily life I don't speak english (school not counted) I only speak dutch and french. So please a littel bit of understanding... thanks.


No it isnt, unless you can find some Rabbi or other Jewish scholar who saids it is.
If we look at the tenach we see a lot of connections with the old testament...

A) The tenach a1) Torah a2) Nevi'im a3) Ketoevim

a1) genesis, exodus, leviticus, numbers and deuternonomy.
a2) joshua, judges, samuel, kings, isaiah, jeremiah and ezkiel.
a3) psalms, proverbs, job, ruth, song of songs, lamentations, ecclesiastes and esther.

B) old testament. b1) the law b2) history b3) poetry and wisdom b4) prophets b5) small prophets

b1) genesis, exodus, leviticus, numbers and deuternonomy
b2) joshua, judges, ruth, 1 samuel, 2 samuel, 1 kings, 2 kings, 1 chronicels, 2 chronicels, ezra, nehemiah, esther.
b3) job, psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes, song of songs
b4) isaiah, jeremiah, lamentations, ezekiel, daniel
b5) hosea, joel, amos, obadiah, jonah, micah, nahum, habakkuk, zephaniah, haggai, zechariah, malachi


You mean like this quote from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians:
No, Romans 2 verse 28 "... A man is not a jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from god."

What do we see here? Judaism is from now spiritual, but it is still judaism. Each Christian is a jew, for affirmation of this, we look at romans 4 verse 11...
"So then, he is the father (abraham) of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but also walk in the footsteps of the faith..."

In the purest sense christianity is a form of judaism. Judaism is now spiritual.


Jesus states hes come for the lost tribes of Israel, not for the Jews. Even the Jewish Alamanac admits this:
"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews may not have been Jews at all..."
That has nothing to do with it.

Siegfried
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Why is it that some people are saying that christianity is not a religion for Europe?

Because I believe the religion is essentially Semitic and do not agree with many of its basic tenets.



Just within 20 years of Jesus' death the church became an European institution, and by the time St. Paul wrote his letters the vast majority of Christians were Europeans. All its major theologians were European, all its major developments occured in Europe.

More or less true, but let me ask you something; can you name a single Biblical book that wasn't written by a Semite? I don't think you can, and that makes the foundation of the religion Semitic, no matter what was later constructed upon it. I have repeatedly stated that Medieval monotheism was a hybrid religion (Christ's teachings mixed up with European paganism and various superstitions), and I still believe that as I haven't seen any convincing proof to the contrary.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 09:34 PM
And? what kind of proof gives the rabbi? I don't see any proof... But i am certain that he gives the proof in his book, but a don't have it in my possession... If you can be so kind to give some proof to me...

Well for one thing Judaism is based on the Talmud not the Bible. See Judaism preaches that Moses recieved two traditions on Mt. Sinai. One was the Torah and the other an oral tradition. According to Christians, its the Torah is what matters but Judaism states it is the oral tradition that matters. The notion of there ever being an oral tradition first arose during the Babylonian captivityl, and it was from this period of time that Judaism first arises.

If one reads the Gospels, Jesus makes it known his staunch opposition to the notion of the oral tradition(or tradition of the elders), claiming it perverted the laws. It was this open opposition that led Jesus to his death.



If we look at the tenach we see a lot of connections with the old testament...

It should be mentioned that the Torah(while officially recognized in Judaism but rarely followed) that the Jews use is significantly different from the one used by Christians. Jews use the Jamian canon, which was a first century rewriting and editing of the Torah and other texts of the Old Testament. The Christians opposed this rewriting and editing and preserved the original canon.

So even by trying to prove a connection with the Old Testament does not prove Christianity's ties to Judaism.


"Despite the ostensible merging of Judean and Jew even in certain New Testament passages and by the rabbis who became rulers of Palestine in the third century and continued to use Hebrew and Aramaic more than Greek, the roots of Christianity were not Jewish. Christianity did not derive from the Judaism of the pharisees, but emerged like Judaism from the wider Judean milieu of the first century. Both Christians and Jews stemmed from pre-70 Judean-ism as heirs of groups that were to take on the role of primary guardians or interpreters of scripture as they developed on parallel tracks in relation to each other."
--Robert and Mary Coote Power, Politics, and the Making of the Bible



No, Romans 2 verse 28 "... A man is not a jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from god."

What do we see here? Judaism is from now spiritual, but it is still judaism. Each Christian is a jew, for affirmation of this, we look at romans 4 verse 11...
"So then, he is the father (abraham) of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but also walk in the footsteps of the faith..."

There are many problems with this interpretation. What you fail to see is that Paul is making clear that the "Jews"(ie the Rabbis and Pharisees and such) are not the true followers of Abraham and his covenant. Thus they are not the true Israelites. Whatever version of the Bible you're using, it's clearly mixing up the terms Israelite or Israel with Jew. This has been problem many scholars have talked about, the mistranslations of words. This is especially true with the words that commonly appear as "Jews" which are more often a mistranslation of the original Greek(note: the New Testament were written Greek not Hebrew) word Ioudaioi, which means "Judean" and has no religious connotations.



That has nothing to do with it.

Actually it has quite alot to do with it. The Israelites were God's chosen people and the guardians of the faith. Their nation perished during the Babylonian captivity and only then does the term Jew first appear in the Bible.

Paul Johnson in his book on the history of the Jewish people admits that for "convience reasons" the religion of the Israelites and the Jewish religion are considered the same.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, June 9th, 2004, 09:42 PM
More or less true, but let me ask you something; can you name a single Biblical book that wasn't written by a Semite? I don't think you can,

Oh but I can, the Gospel of Luke is commonly believed by Biblican scholars to have been written by a Greek Christian. Of course we can possibly also consider the other Gospels as well, since they were Galileens and all historical records show that the Jewish population of that region was small. Most Galileens(as is even mentioned in the Bible) were Gentiles and a significant number of Greek settlers lived there. There are Greek names among the 12 Apostles and the Gospel of John has Jesus preaching to Greeks. This would certainly explain the heavy influence of Greek influence in Christianity.

Even mainstream scholars who insist that Christianity grew out of Judaism admit that without the heavy amount of Greek influence in Judaism, Christianity would not have been possible.


"It is precisely these Jewish origins of Christianity that draw our attention toward Hellenism in the larger sense, in its cultural and intellectual dimensions. The mindsets, the way of thinking, the literary products of the first Christian centuries bear witness to the meeting that had already taken place between Hellenism and Judaism. A process of Hellenization began with the Greek translation of the Torah, the Pentateuch, and continued with the works written directly in Greek, like the Book of Wisdom. It grew more vigorous in Alexandrian Judaism, owning to contributions by authors such as Aristobulus and especially Philon; the latter consciously adapted Greek philosophical concepts to his understanding of the Bible by means of allegory, producing a theology, a cosmology, and an anthropology that profoundly influenced the first church fathers."
--"Hellenism and Christianity" from "Greek thought : a guide to classical knowledge" edited by Jacques Brunschwig and Geoffrey E.R. Lloyd, with the collaboration of Pierre Pellegrin ; translated under the direction of Catherine Porter. page 859