PDA

View Full Version : Were the Germans Ever Called Dutch?



Curious guest
Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 01:03 PM
I think I read somewhere the Germans were called Dutch originally. Does anyone know more about that?

Blod og Jord
Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 01:10 PM
I think so and sometimes even today some Germans are called Dutch. The Pennsylvania Dutch are called Dutch although they're Germans. I quickly searched and found some information for you.
I hope it's helpful.


Dutch

c.1380, used first of Germans generally, after c.1600 of Hollanders, from M.Du. duutsch, from O.H.G. duit-isc, corresponding to O.E. şeodisc "belonging to the people," used especially of the common language of Germanic people, from şeod "people, race, nation," from P.Gmc. *theudo "popular, national" (see Teutonic), from PIE base *teuta- "people" (cf. O.Ir. tuoth "people," O.Lith. tauta "people," O.Prus. tauto "country," Oscan touto "community"). As a language name, first recorded as L. theodice, 786 C.E. in correspondence between Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. First reference to the German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later. The sense was extended from the language to the people who spoke it (in Ger., Diutisklant, ancestor of Deutschland, was in use by 13c.). Sense narrowed to "of the Netherlands" in 17c., after they became a united, independent state and the focus of English attention and rivalry. In Holland, duitsch is used of the people of Germany. The M.E. sense survives in Pennsylvania Dutch, who immigrated from the Rhineland and Switzerland.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Dutch


German (2)

"Teuton," 1520s, from L. Germanus, first attested in writings of Julius Caesar, who used Germani to designate a group of tribes in northeastern Gaul, origin unknown, probably the name of an individual tribe. It is perhaps of Gaulish (Celtic) origin, perhaps originally meaning "noisy" (cf. O.Ir. garim "to shout") or "neighbor" (cf. O.Ir. gair "neighbor"). The earlier English word was Almain or Dutch. Their name for themselves was the root word of modern Ger. Deutsch (see Dutch).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=German

Hauke Haien
Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 01:21 PM
"Dutch" and "Deutsch" is etymologically the same word and it has been used for all Continental West Germanics (e.g. Pennsylvania Dutch) until its meaning was narrowed to primarily pertain to the Kingdom of the Netherlands, its people and its languages, Nederlands Nederlands serving as a standard.

In works of literature, there is further evidence that the German- and Dutch-speaking areas were once considered a coherent language space. In "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathan Swift, the terms "Low Dutch" and "High Dutch" are used in the sense of "Low German" and "High German". In linguistics, it has been common until 1945 to consider the Netherlandish languages in this way.

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25744/1_Deutsche_Mundarten.PNG
http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/index.php?n=3702


Green: Upper German
Blue: Central German
Orange: Low German
Light orange: Dutch
Rose (light and intense): Frisian
Light blue: Limburgish

Representation map of the German dialects in the year 1937. In linguistics, the dialect areas in the Low Countries were considered as part of the German language area. These areas are coloured pale.

Nachtengel
Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 01:42 PM
You could also find some information and arguments here:
Are the Dutch Low German or Are the Low Germans Dutch? / Should the Netherlands Join Germany? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=94757)

runder
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 01:21 AM
The English language didn't differentiate between Dutch and German until relatively recently. They were all called Dutch.

Bedford Brown
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 02:44 AM
I found an article, and picture of Reichsfreiherr Karl-theodor zu Guttenberg, and must say he does not look like a German...I know that Guttenberg, one of his forefathers, invented the printing press, but he still does not look right to me...he is married to a German Girl, lives in a Castle, and just about owns the town of Guttenberg. I feel he is the person that will bring about the Holy Roman Empire. Want opinions about this matter.

wittwer
Tuesday, August 10th, 2010, 09:49 PM
To-ma-to-, To-ma)to- , Po-ta-to-, Po-ta)to-, Deutsch or Dutch? It's all dependent on the pronunciation and dialect inflections of speaker and region. In the U.S. either is acceptable. ;)

Harwyn
Tuesday, August 10th, 2010, 11:25 PM
And we Flemmish were named 'Diets'........:D

Agramer
Monday, August 23rd, 2010, 02:05 PM
I heard that according to some linguists, Dutsch as a language belongs to western-german (it's not mistake-not germanic, but german) branch of languages? All in all, when I hear Dutch I always get supprised how similar it is to German and how many words can I recognise without problems :)

Aragorn
Saturday, January 22nd, 2011, 08:48 AM
I heard that according to some linguists, Dutsch as a language belongs to western-german (it's not mistake-not germanic, but german) branch of languages? All in all, when I hear Dutch I always get supprised how similar it is to German and how many words can I recognise without problems :)

Such topics come up and now everywhere online.

Is Dutch German? Or is German Dutch, as someone recently liked to proof on GW forum...

I dont consider it very important. Dutch is obviously very closely connected with the North-Germans, or visa versa if someone looks it from a Dutch radical All-Diets nationalist perspective I suppose:D

What matters is National identity. Dutch are Dutch and Germans are Germans. Dutch have their own National identity, and that comes first before linguistics. Many Dialects are declining anyway, so the National Languages will become more and more dominating.

lewevanhoop
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 03:02 AM
In middle Dutch the word for Dutch was Diets and in some dialects today it is the word for German

Northern Paladin
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 05:27 AM
The Germans are called Deutsch, which sounds very much like Dutch doesn't it? It depends on where you live I guess.

Melisande
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 06:19 AM
The "Germans" weren't collectively called Germans by the broader world until fairly recently. The German Confederation, after Napoleon fell, called itself Deutscher Bunde and is roughly the same Germany as we know today.

Meanwhile, the area that English speakers refer to as the homeland of the Dutch, was using names like Holland and Zeeland for itself, and was called during Napoleonic times "Koninkrijk Holland."

There's obviously a related meaning between Deutsch and Dutch, but I think it's English speakers who mostly use the term "Dutch" for Holland and the Netherlands - correct me if I'm wrong.

Wychaert
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 09:17 AM
but I think it's English speakers who mostly use the term "Dutch" for Holland and the Netherlands

True.
But in the Netherlands, most Dutch call themself ''Hollanders''.
I only use the term ''Nederlanders''
Simply because I'm not from holland, but from Gelderland:P

Ingvaeonic
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 09:54 AM
If my memory serves me correctly, I think that in late Middle English and early modern English, from roughly the late 14th to the early 17th centuries, what is now called "Dutch" in English was called "Netherlandish" and what "Dutch" meant then was what is now called "German" and it was applied to the geographic area that covered the northeast of the modern Netherlands and the lowlands of northern Germany.

In other words, "Dutch" was applied to that linguistic area where Low Saxon or Low German, both names are for the same language, were and are spoken. Low German is "Plattdüütsch" or "Nedderdüütsch" in modern Low German; Low Saxon is what Low German is called in the Netherlands, and in modern Dutch it is "Nedersaksisch". It would seem the English word "Dutch" is derived from the Low German word for "German" which is "Düütsch", as can be seen from the above.

As I have written in a couple of other posts, many words from Middle Low German entered Middle English and early modern English because of the influence of the Hanseatic League, which was based in the trading-port cities of the north German coast and whose language was Middle Low German. Because of the Hanseatic League's near monopoly on trade in northern Europe from the late 13th century to the 15th century, Low German became a lingua franca of the North Sea and Baltic Sea littorals and was spoken from the Baltic Sea's eastern shore in the east, throughout Scandinavia in the north, to southern England in the west. Because of its widespread use, Middle Low German was linguistically a highly influential language and practically all northern European languages, including of course English, have loanwords taken from it or words derived from Low German words.

Einarr
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 10:44 AM
At one time in the US, Germans were referred to as "dutch" or "dutchies," which was just a poor take on the word Deutsch (by Anglophones). This was common during the 19th century, for example.

Æmeric
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 04:03 PM
"Dutch" is just the Anglicization of Deutsche. Even through to the end of the 19th century Dutch was sometimes used for German. Jacob Waltz, the founder of the legendary Lost Dutchman Gold Mine" (http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/) was in fact a German. The example of the Pennsylvania Dutch has already been mentioned (in recent years genealogists & historians have taken to calling them Pennsylvania Germans to avoid the confusion). Many Americans who think they have Dutch (Netherlands) ancestry in fact have German ancestors.

The English language terms "German" & Germany" have their roots in Latin, from Germania, the Roman name for the area east of the Rhine. I don't think any other language uses these terms.

Thusnelda
Sunday, April 3rd, 2011, 09:34 PM
The English language terms "German" & Germany" have their roots in Latin, from Germania, the Roman name for the area east of the Rhine. I don't think any other language uses these terms.
In Italy, they say "Germania". :)

But as others already said, I think "Dutch" and "Deutsch" are strongly related or even the same from an historical point of view. Well, interestingly, we in Bavaria speak it like "Deitsch" in local dialect. :D "Mia san Deitsch" = "Wir sind Deutsch" = "We are German"

Melisande
Monday, April 4th, 2011, 04:38 AM
It's clear (and everything published on the subject agrees) that "Deutsch" and "Dutch" are obviously related and not just a random event.

But which came first? Likely, they descend from a common ancestral phonemic sequence.

Anyone here capable of figuring out which came first? There's a method (or one can cite experts).

At what point does Dutch become Deutsch? Huge matter of debate for a couple of centuries, but current Hollanders do not understand everything current Germans say.

Of course, I don't understand everything people here say - especially in the SHOUT box.

Wychaert
Monday, April 4th, 2011, 08:01 AM
At what point does Dutch become Deutsch? Huge matter of debate for a couple of centuries, but current Hollanders do not understand everything current Germans say.


Yes, but when we listen carefully to eachother, we can.
Thereby with all the different dialects in it, its sometimes difficult to hear'.

A fast speaking German cant understand a fast speaking Dutchman.
but our type of ''sprechen'' or ''spreken'' remain quet the same.

Anlef
Monday, April 4th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Dutch and deutsch were originally one and the same word.

First there was Proto-Germanic *şeudō ‘people’. From this was derived *şeudiska- ‘(language) of the people, Germanic (as opposed to Latin/Roman)’. Either this derivation was a common Proto-Germanic word as well, or it spread from the area of the Franks to the other Germanic dialects.

In what is now Germany this word *şeudiska- developed into Old High German diutisc ‘(language) of the people, Germanic’ and ultimately into Modern High German deutsch.

In what is now the Southern Netherlands this word *şeudiska- developed into Middle Dutch dietsch ‘(language) of the people, Germanic’. In what is now the Northern Netherlands a slightly different form developed, yet with the same meaning still: Middle Dutch duutsch ‘(language) of the people, Germanic’. It was this northern form that was borrowed into English Dutch, to refer to the Germanic speaking peoples on the mainland. Ultimately it came to mean only ‘(language) of the Netherlands’.

Meanwhile in the Northern Netherlands this form duutsch developed into Duytsch and ultimately into Duits. But it came to mean something else: ‘(language) of the Germanics to the east of the Netherlands’. For the Netherlands had become a distinct entity in time and needed to differentiate. And so the words Nederduytsch and Nederlandsch were born for ‘self-designation’. Of those two the latter was victorious and with revised spelling became the word the Dutch use for their own to this day: Nederlands ‘Dutch’. And as mentioned above, the word the mainland Germanics originally used for their own became the word the Dutch use for their eastern neighbours: Duits ‘German’.

In a way, that original word *şeudiska- is the closest thing to a native term for ‘Germanic’ we have. Had an English form developed directly from it, it might look something like Thetch. (Compare how Proto-Germanic *şeubişō developed into English theft and how Proto-Germanic *deupişō developed into English depth.)

kleine Lokomotive
Thursday, April 14th, 2011, 07:58 AM
The main reason modern dutch and german are different is that modern german is based on Thuringian. If it was based on Low Saxon the difference would be minimal. The german areas closest to the netherlands are said to speak the most "correct" german because they made an effort to adjust their speach to the written language.
Charlemagne wanted to introduce a seperate written language for the eastern part of his realm based on his mothertongue low frankish/flemish. But that never took off and instead only latin was used.

Anlef
Thursday, April 14th, 2011, 11:43 AM
Interesting about the separate written language for the eastern part. Where can I read more about it?

From chapter 29 of Einhard's Life of Charles the Great (Vita Karoli Magni), here is something similar:

He did, however, order that the laws of all the peoples under his rule which were not written should be written down. He also ordered that the very old German songs, in which the deeds and wars of ancient kings were celebrated, should be written down and preserved. He also began a grammar of his native language.

Assuming those very old Germans songs and that grammar were indeed put in writing, I very much hope they will one day be found. The old Scandinavians preserved an invaluable tradition indeed, but they were in fact the 'stay-at-homes'. One can only imagine the legends of those Germanics who lived in and around Mirkwood for centuries, battling with dragons and such, and with great Roman armies.

Unregistered
Saturday, May 7th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Linguistically I think both German and Dutch languages are part of the same dialect continuum and hence both are orginally same.

Darkfish
Thursday, May 19th, 2011, 12:50 AM
But in the Netherlands, most Dutch call themself ''Hollanders''.Not really true. Generally speaking, only people from the provinces of North and South Holland call themselves "Hollands". I'm originally from Gelderland, and I've always called myself "Nederlands".
The only time I use the term Holland is when I'm speaking to foreigners, as in other languages the term "Holland" has become pretty synonymous to "the Netherlands".

In the Dutch language, I don't know any word sounding similar to "Dutch", except the word for "German": "Duits". I guess some Englishmen simply mixed up Germans and Dutchmen centuries ago.
So if you purely look at linguistics, the Dutch are called "German", exactly the other way around.


Anyways, the Netherlands is just some man-drawn borders on a map, encompassing the historical territories of several Germanic tribes. The people of the Achterhoek (eastern Gelderland) have more in common with people on the other side of the border in Germany, than with some "fellow Dutchmen" like Frisians or Hollandians.

Wychaert
Thursday, May 19th, 2011, 07:44 AM
Not really true. Generally speaking, only people from the provinces of North and South Holland call themselves "Hollands".

My point is that the most people call themselves Hollanders, because they simply dont know that only the the people from North/south Holland are called so.

I see a lot of men in the town where I live now with tattoo's of 'holland'.
When I ask the question if they are from those provences, they realy look stupid.

Ofcourse We know that it is Netherlands(well, the provences we live in then) But that because we are realy intrested in our true history.

Welkom by the way:thumbup

Darkfish
Thursday, May 19th, 2011, 03:04 PM
My point is that the most people call themselves Hollanders, because they simply dont know that only the the people from North/south Holland are called so.

I see a lot of men in the town where I live now with tattoo's of 'holland'.
When I ask the question if they are from those provences, they realy look stupid.

Ofcourse We know that it is Netherlands(well, the provences we live in then) But that because we are realy intrested in our true history.

Welkom by the way:thumbupThanks for the welcome:thumbup

Maybe it depends on where you live? Pretty much everyone I know calls himself "Nederlands" instead of "Hollands".