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View Full Version : No difference in indigenous Northern Africans and Mediteraneans



ghghg474
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 05:28 PM
The southern europe types are the same as indigneous north african berbers

There are countless examples of this

For instance the similarities abound. My great aunt(sicilian) looks like a berber moroccan woman through and through

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6826/uio8o8copy.jpg http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3681/berbermoroccopy.jpg
Maria grazia cucinotta can pass for berber morocan http://membres.lycos.fr/todreb17/m_cucinotta_031.jpg

I can go on for days with examples. All dark med europeans mostly in southern europe are the same stock as indigneous northern africans.

another example (berber) (italian)
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2165/e44rrr.jpg

I will show some berber woman pics if anyone wants to see. the similarity to dark meditteranean south europeans in clear!

Vetinari
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 07:39 PM
The southern europe types are the same as indigneous north african berbers

There are countless examples of this

For instance the similarities abound. My great aunt(sicilian) looks like a berber moroccan woman through and through

I can go on for days with examples. All dark med europeans mostly in southern europe are the same stock as indigneous northern africans.


I will show some berber woman pics if anyone wants to see. the similarity to dark meditteranean south europeans in clear!

This genetics paper seems to agree with you:

Abstract
This study reports the first data on Y-chromosome-specific short tandem repeat (STR) haplotype frequencies, in the population of the island of Sicily (Italy), based on the combination of alleles at the following 10 Y-chromosome loci DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, and DYS439. In a total of 117 males, 108 unique haplotypes were observed, with 99 of them being singletons. The 10 locus haplotypes generated a diversity value of 0.9987 and discriminatory power (DP) of 92.30%. The data on the seven of the 10 polymorphisms (DYS19; DYS389I; DYS389II; DYS390; DYS391; DYS392 and DYS393) that have been most studied in worldwide populations were compared with similar data from neighboring Mediterranean populations in order to address the question of shared ancestry, gene flow and population affinities. Overall, results indicate Sicily is closest genetically to the mainland Italian population but also with evidence of a significant African component in the male gene pool. These findings are consistent with those obtained from other genetic markers (autosomal and mitochondrial DNA as well as the classical blood groups) and also with the recorded settlement history (either peaceful or due to invasion) of the island.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7586

Scoob
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 07:58 PM
There is some overlap between S Europeans and Berber groups - but they are not identical. You are oversimplifying.

That guy's aunt looks a little different from the Berber woman IMO. Having N African blood in some percentage is not the same as being 100% N African Berber.

See other posts about HLA studies in the Mediterranean area, and the ancient usko-Mediterranean peoples.

ghghg474
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Well of course they arent identical but before any arab or roman etc invasions they were of the same basic stock.....there are many individuals in southern europe who match those of indignous berber north africans.

Scoob
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Well of course they arent identical but before any arab or roman etc invasions they were of the same basic stock.....there are many individuals in southern europe who match those of indignous berber north africans. Do you have any evidence for this. Who are you contrasting the Romans with: Sicilians? That's a crossroads area that has been invaded many times in recorded history, and probably just as many in prehistory.

Basques are also closely related to indigenous N Africans - it's the old usko-Mediterranean stock according to HLA studies.

ghghg474
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Basques are also closely related to indigenous N Africans - it's the old usko-Mediterranean stock according to HLA studies.
Yes i know that, and so is the classic stock of all of southern europe is the same as indigenous north africans.....

no disagreement here

Awar
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Nope, North Africans once were of a very similar stock with SW Europeans: Iberians, Western Europeans and North-Western Europeans. Now they are as a whole much more mixed with sub-saharan and Neolithic ancestry thanks to the invasions in the last 1500 years.

Greeks and Turks are of a totally different genetic composition, Levantines are of a bit different sort. Balkan, Ukrainian, Caucasus etc. are different etc.
There's no ONE 'mediterranean race'.

Agrippa
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 10:40 PM
I think there is one phenotype we could call Mediterranid and this phenotype is common in Europe and in certain regions of North Africa and SW-Asia.

Of course there are genetical differences, they do not really represent the majority in these regions and they are more mixed with non-Europeans.

Nevertheless I saw North Africans and Lebanese people which looked very European and were of the Mediterranid phenotype without any other admixture.

I would even say I saw at least "pseudo-Nordid" or Nordoid North Africans, one even personally.

Awar
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 10:52 PM
I personally know only one person who could pass as 'med proper', and most of the other truly Mediterranean phenotypes I've seen were belonging to Greeks. But, in Greece, the most common would be some Med/Alpine, Dinaric and UP/Med mixes, NOT classic Med phenotypes.

There are quite a few differences between West and East as a whole, and especially about Mediterraneans.

Agrippa
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 11:37 PM
I personally know only one person who could pass as 'med proper', and most of the other truly Mediterranean phenotypes I've seen were belonging to Greeks. But, in Greece, the most common would be some Med/Alpine, Dinaric and UP/Med mixes, NOT classic Med phenotypes.

There are quite a few differences between West and East as a whole, and especially about Mediterraneans.

The most typical (Gracil-)Mediterranids and Atlantomediterranids are in Spain+Portugal.

There are big differences, but on the other hand the similarities are bigger and every type is a generalized categorization.

The difference between a typical Greek Mediterranid and a Greek Alpinid is bigger than between the Med and another Med from Spain, at least phenotypically.
Thats something we all know and in my opinion thats what the "Mediterranid" type is all about, its a phenotypical categorization with probable (not necessary) genetic relations.

Awar
Monday, June 7th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Sure, but I think it's a fine time to start considering genetic differences too.

Agrippa
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 12:24 AM
Sure, but I think it's a fine time to start considering genetic differences too.

The only thing I dont like is to overemphasize genetic differences, especially junk genes on the one hand, and dont look enough at the phenotypical but mainly genetically determined concrete features which are in the end more important on the other.

But for sure, they should be considered as well although I'm sceptical so far because of the partly very different results and unfinished scientific work on this issue.

Awar
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 12:49 AM
Yes, I agree it's largely unfinished, but, I think the knowledge we have by now allows us to at least have some good starting points.

There are some 5-6 large genetic influences in Europe. Each one of these has some
2-3 phenotypes that largely correspond to the genetic charts.

example: Iberia, France and Britain are genetically very similar, with some Cro-Magnoid phenotypes, some Gracilized mediterranean, some Nordoid-ish and various gradients in-between these. Same can be said about most other regions.

ghghg474
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Nope, North Africans once were of a very similar stock with SW Europeans: Iberians, Western Europeans and North-Western Europeans. Now they are as a whole much more mixed with sub-saharan and Neolithic ancestry thanks to the invasions in the last 1500 years.

Of course SOME are slightly mixed now but why the reason to mention it?

Most berbers do not display negro or even arab features and a very berber looking south european is straight on exact to a berber from morocco and other parts of north africa.

Agrippa
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Yes, I agree it's largely unfinished, but, I think the knowledge we have by now allows us to at least have some good starting points.

There are some 5-6 large genetic influences in Europe. Each one of these has some
2-3 phenotypes that largely correspond to the genetic charts.

example: Iberia, France and Britain are genetically very similar, with some Cro-Magnoid phenotypes, some Gracilized mediterranean, some Nordoid-ish and various gradients in-between these. Same can be said about most other regions.

Thats true, but I think Western Europe is something special because of his genetic and imo phenotypical (leptomorphic-Mediterranoid+Cromagnid types) homogenity.

Awar
Tuesday, June 8th, 2004, 02:27 AM
You didn't say BERBERS, you said NORTH AFRICANS.
It's not the same thing, is it :P