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Veršandi
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 10:55 AM
Pope Benedict XVI also prayed that people would rediscover, appreciate and defend the rich cultural and Christian heritage that has has been part of Europe for centuries.


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VergesEngst
Wednesday, November 25th, 2009, 11:56 PM
I wish the article had been more specific. I mean, what are some specific examples of "the rich cultural and Christian heritage" that he wants people to focus more on? What cultural Christian heritage does he think is being ignored?

Aequoreus
Saturday, February 27th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Perhaps the very fact that Christianity is the core of European society.. ?

Reshki
Saturday, February 27th, 2010, 11:17 PM
It's a somewhat veiled call to resist the muslim flood before another round of crusades becomes necessary to push them out again.

SaxonPagan
Saturday, February 27th, 2010, 11:39 PM
Well the Pope wasn't too expansive, was he? You have to read between the lines to see what he's driving at here but there's no doubt in the mind of the sole contributor to the comments section, who writes ...

Christians saved Europe from the invading hoards of Muslims. Sadly, The Crusades could not rescue Turkey, The Middle East, Egypt… but they did have an effect of letting the Muslims know that there would be a fight in their persistent pursuit of conquest. They were stopped in non other than France by Martel at the Battle of Tours and halted at the gates of Vienna Austria as well as removed from Spain. As a former teacher NONE of this was taught in the classroom. NONE!

In effect, Europeans have through the insidious and vacuous cancer of “diversity” have allowed Europe to be infiltrated and neutered of any backbone to stand up to the continued onslaught of the Muslims. By de-Christianizing the Europeans have taken away a great bulwark and have opened the Continent to further conquest. The Pope sees this and has politely made a meek statement. Anything more would be labeled as hateful, nonconstructive, and CRIMINAL.

Well said Sir/Madam :thumbup

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 12:19 AM
Well, mister pope, if you didn't spend all your time genuflecting before the jews, we might listen to something you had to say. Hypocrite.

SaxonPagan
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 12:46 AM
Quite true, Huginn!

That said, he's one of the better ones we've had recently and he did after all re-instate Bishop Williamson, who denied the Holocaust™ ;)

Reshki
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 03:39 AM
"The enemy of my enemy. . ."

Like him or not, fact is the muslims want us all dead; take what allies you can get.

Mjolnir
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 03:55 AM
Well, mister pope, if you didn't spend all your time genuflecting before the jews, we might listen to something you had to say. Hypocrite.

He bowed down to Islam too......

Once upon a time, we Germanics were a proud, warlike people.We had our own Gods, our own "Boden" and our own "Blut".

Old Winter
Sunday, February 28th, 2010, 05:34 AM
At the same time he says that the West must accept more immigrants.

Aequoreus
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 08:10 AM
Well, mister pope, if you didn't spend all your time genuflecting before the jews, we might listen to something you had to say. Hypocrite.

Genuflecting before the Jews? Well sir, I must apologise for His Holiness that he is not out running around with a nice pair of shiny jackboots vandalizing Jewish graves and Synagogues.

But there's this thing called being 'civilized' and showing something called 'respect'.


That said, he's one of the better ones we've had recently and he did after all re-instate Bishop Williamson, who denied the Holocaust™ ;)

This should be noted. Not because it indicates the Holy Father's possible secret belief in Holocaust denial etc., but because he recognised that Bishop Williamson was true in matters of faith and morals and was true to the deposit of the faith required for salvation. He would not allow modern society to dictate what the Church and Her members may and may not believe.

I feel sorry for the Holy Father. He is a German and the Jews and mdoern society expect him to bend over backwards to atone for sins he did not commit. He is supposed to share the collective guilt felt by the German people for Hitler and his gang of mongrels. I think they have recieved a bit of a wake up call ;).

Though I will admit to having a sour taste in my mouth after the Good Friday prayer for the Jews was altered.


He bowed down to Islam too...

My God, what is it with you people? Isolationism has never worked. The Holy Father has a dialogue with other peoples, other faiths. This is quite a natural human occurrence. I assure you the Germanic cheiftains of old did not hide away in their little corners. As you say below, they have a warrior spirit.

The Holy Father prayed towards Mecca apparently. What some people do not realise is that before the Vatican II Council, Christians always prayed and celebrated Mass facing towards Jerusalem. You nor I know the intent of the Holy Father when he prayed then, but going by past actions I think it is a safe assumption that he was not praying to Mohammed.


Once upon a time, we Germanics were a proud, warlike people.We had our own Gods, our own "Boden" and our own "Blut".

Read a history book. The Christianisation of the Germanic people did not make them anymore less warlike. In fact, that happened after they abandoned Christianity.

Mjolnir
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 10:21 PM
Genuflecting before the Jews? Well sir, I must apologise for His Holiness that he is not out running around with a nice pair of shiny jackboots vandalizing Jewish graves and Synagogues.

But there's this thing called being 'civilized' and showing something called 'respect'.



This should be noted. Not because it indicates the Holy Father's possible secret belief in Holocaust denial etc., but because he recognised that Bishop Williamson was true in matters of faith and morals and was true to the deposit of the faith required for salvation. He would not allow modern society to dictate what the Church and Her members may and may not believe.

I feel sorry for the Holy Father. He is a German and the Jews and mdoern society expect him to bend over backwards to atone for sins he did not commit. He is supposed to share the collective guilt felt by the German people for Hitler and his gang of mongrels. I think they have recieved a bit of a wake up call ;).

Though I will admit to having a sour taste in my mouth after the Good Friday prayer for the Jews was altered.



My God, what is it with you people? Isolationism has never worked. The Holy Father has a dialogue with other peoples, other faiths. This is quite a natural human occurrence. I assure you the Germanic cheiftains of old did not hide away in their little corners. As you say below, they have a warrior spirit.

The Holy Father prayed towards Mecca apparently. What some people do not realise is that before the Vatican II Council, Christians always prayed and celebrated Mass facing towards Jerusalem. You nor I know the intent of the Holy Father when he prayed then, but going by past actions I think it is a safe assumption that he was not praying to Mohammed.



Read a history book. The Christianisation of the Germanic people did not make them anymore less warlike. In fact, that happened after they abandoned Christianity.

Christianity is all about appeasement, respecting "fellow human beings" and tolerating guests. Christianity DID weaken out heritage, althoug Christianity is part of our heritage right now.....If there were no Christianity, you think we Germanics would tolerate immigrants? Check your history.....

Isolationism has never worked? It worked for 3000 years and more......Internationalism/globalism fails within less than 100 years. Whats your point?

The warrior spirit you are talking about was replaced bij our "holy" ROMAN church.

Aequoreus
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 10:30 PM
Christianity is all about appeasement

That is either a simple lie, or pure ignorance. If the Church was all about appeasement, then homosexuality, abortion and pre-marital sex would be all find and dandy for them.


respecting "fellow human beings" and tolerating guests.

You should respect a fellow human being, as they are equal to you in that they have been created with an immortal and rational soul in the likeness of God. That is what we are to respect.

As for tolerating guests.. yes. Don't attack them and insult them. Do not become mindless brutes. Oppose mass-immigration, but oppose it with reason and civility and not mindless thuggery.


Christianity DID weaken out heritage, althoug it s part of our heritage right now.....Thats why we are going wrong, don t you agree?

How could I possibly agree with that?

If you notice, our society started going down hill after we abandoned Christianity for dogmatic secularism and materialism.


Isolationism has never worked? It worked for 3000 years and more......Internationalism/globalism fails within less than 100 years. Whats your point?

It didn't "work" for 3000 years because isolationism never works. There was always contact and dialogue with other tribes, other peoples. It formed a continiuum. It's an insult that you think the great cheiftains of old would cower away hording their gold and women.


The warrior spirit you are talking about has been lost for millenia.....

Then you simply have not paid attention for the last millenia.

Mjolnir
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 10:44 PM
That is either a simple lie, or pure ignorance. If the Church was all about appeasement, then homosexuality, abortion and pre-marital sex would be all find and dandy for them.



You should respect a fellow human being, as they are equal to you in that they have been created with an immortal and rational soul in the likeness of God. That is what we are to respect.

As for tolerating guests.. yes. Don't attack them and insult them. Do not become mindless brutes. Oppose mass-immigration, but oppose it with reason and civility and not mindless thuggery.



How could I possibly agree with that?

If you notice, our society started going down hill after we abandoned Christianity for dogmatic secularism and materialism.



It didn't "work" for 3000 years because isolationism never works. There was always contact and dialogue with other tribes, other peoples. It formed a continiuum. It's an insult that you think the great cheiftains of old would cower away hording their gold and women.



Then you simply have not paid attention for the last millenia.

You are proving my point Christian........

The last 100 years a warlike German people stood up and they were defeated by Russians and Germanic Christians( liberals and the christian right).

The situation nowadays in Europe, led by Christians and leftwingers/liberals, is dyer. Immigrant inferiour hordes (we have already conquered) invading Europe, birth rates are going off the charts.

It s the same thing nowadays...... Germanics are being defeated by our own people.
Christianity is communism. "We should all respect our fellow men", although they are not equal to our civilisation, genes nor heritage. Thats a Christian thought. Keep on believing in it, while you destroy your heritage. Shame on your forefathers, those proud Brits.

There is only one truth in our world, this thruth is LEX NATURALIS.

When a strong people are devaluated to lesser people because of "humanity", main stream politics ; They will lose. The strong will lose on the bases of numbers by the lesser people and our will to be "christian" and "tolerant" will make us and have made us to weaker people.

That game didn t work for mulicultural societies, the all imploded. Our society will implode too. Guess who will be on top (on numbers)?

Aequoreus
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 10:56 PM
Christianity is communism. We should all respect our fellow men, although they are not equal to our civilisation, genes not heritage.

This is a simple case of your not understanding what respect is. Respecting your fellow man is respecting that they are also created in the image and likeness of God. It means respecting that their salvation is not lost.

It doesn't mean you need to go out of your way bending over backwards to let them horde into your country. No. It doesn't even mean you need to like them on any personal level.

It means showing them basic respect.

To say we are communist.. wow. You're not even worth any continued debate, because you don't seem to understand what communism is if you're comparing it to Christianity.


There is only one truth in our world, this thruth is LEX NATURALIS.

Since God is the author of nature ;)..


When a strong people are devaluated to lesser people because of "humanity", main stream politics ; They will lose. The strong will lose on the bases of numbers by the lesser people.

You are not devaluated to a "lesser people", because you are not any more or less than they - you are men.

Mjolnir
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:10 PM
This is a simple case of your not understanding what respect is. Respecting your fellow man is respecting that they are also created in the image and likeness of God. It means respecting that their salvation is not lost.

It doesn't mean you need to go out of your way bending over backwards to let them horde into your country. No. It doesn't even mean you need to like them on any personal level.

It means showing them basic respect.

To say we are communist.. wow. You're not even worth any continued debate, because you don't seem to understand what communism is if you're comparing it to Christianity.



Since God is the author of nature ;)..



You are not devaluated to a "lesser people", because you are not any more or less than they - you are men.

Thats where we disagree. There are lesser people, although you Christians are balancing erveryone on a christian scale.....Suits you....
Thats what I meant when I talked about "humanity and culture", "tolerance"..all christian values which don t correlate to our present situation.
Lex Naturalis and most other common scientific laws don t agree with you.


You are proving my point again.. There is no point argueing with you, unless you don t believe in things you can see, hear. Keep believing in fantasy, I will take the stats and our history as a people into account.


For me, you are the accomplices of mass immigration, being tolerate to lesser people and ignoring your forefathers and your own genes , your childeren to be.....You are the henchman of the decline of our Germanic culture.
You are, from my stance, a traitor to your own heritage.

Christians have left the Germanic idea, the idea of race, of our blood, the idea of nation and our heritage.

We differ on all those points. There is no point talking to you.

SaxonPagan
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:18 PM
Aequoreus, I read your earlier post with interest and there were some valid points, but I don’t think sarcasm and caricatures are the way to go here. I’m referring in particular to …


I must apologise for His Holiness that he is not out running around with a nice pair of shiny jackboots vandalizing Jewish graves and Synagogues.

… and I'm just wondering how many NS actually do this? Few, if any, but it’s interesting to see how peoples’ perceptions are conditioned by the Jewish-controlled media these days!

You are quite right to say the Pope acted correctly in refusing to bow to Jewish pressure but, again, I'm not sure where you get the “gang of mongrels” bit from in the quote below …


He is supposed to share the collective guilt felt by the German people for Hitler and his gang of mongrels.

One thing the Nazis were not is mongrels because Germany was a racially homogenous society back then and the mongrels (as you call them) have only appeared as a result of Hitler losing the war. TBQH, I always find it sad when Christians resort to insulting their co-religionists (which the Nazis were – like it or not!) to appease Jews because it’s certainly not something they’d do for you.

In fact, most Catholics I’ve met in the UK have far more enmity towards Protestants than any other religious group, which again appears strange, and leads to situations between fellow Christians such as we have in Northern Ireland. Personally, I'd have to say I much prefer people in "shiny jackboots" to the fanatical IRA!

Chlodovech
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:21 PM
Christianity is communism........

Mjolnir, Christianity and communism are archenemies, it's not because you dislike the both of them, that they're in fact the same thing.

Especially communism - which was so opposed to the old, traditional Christian order, in all its aspects - communist practical policies seemed to be all about the destruction of Christianity in the first place, before anything else. It's an ideology with a Satanic quality, for the Church. Where communism is on the rise, Christianity is usually in decline - that should tell us something.

It's the reason why Catholics used to pray for the collapse of communism during every mass, why the Church played an active role in combatting communism, and why many of our Dutch and Flemish boys sacrificed their lifes on the Eastern front .

Mjolnir
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:26 PM
Mjolnir, Christianity and communism are archenemies, it's not because you dislike the both of them, that they're in fact the same thing.

Especially communism - which was so opposed to the old, traditional Christian order, in all its aspects - communist practical policies seemed all about the destruction of Christianity in the first place, before anything else. It's an ideology with a Satanic quality, for the Church. Where communism is on the rise, Christianity is usually in decline - that should tell us something.

It's the reason why Catholics used to pray for the collapse of communism during every mass, why the Church played an active role in combatting communism, and why many of our Dutch and Flemish boys sacrificed their lifes on the Eastern front .

Chlodo, still you can t ignore the christian influence nowadays. I know Christianity is much more than communism, but when push comes to shove, Communism ignores Christianity and vice versa.

The thing is, they (communism and Christianity) both adhere conformism, equality and to tolerate lesser people. There is no such thing as equality in nature...There is no such thing as tolerating people who can´t take care of their own in nature, in nations, can´t take care of their own blood..

Africa is an extreme example of how much races differ, that fact you should take it into account (it has been there for 50 years or more), or any other place ruled by the democratic principle when there are demographically more blacks.They all FAIL.


If you can name one spot which is governed succesfully by blacks, name it....


South Africa is going down the drain since apartheid ended. Mugabe sent out the white farmers and now that nation is broke as hell (which means we are going to pay for it eventually...(by christian morals).

It doesn t mean I hate Africans, it does mean I find them inferiour. There is no such thing as being equal in nature.....and we are part of nature.

Christianity weakened our Germanic race, to the core.


Flemish and Dutch guys fought for our heritage, not for our liberal-christian thoughts nowadays...They died for a new Germanic ideal!!!! Don t use their sacrifices in vain, I will be offended.

Live and let die, thats what nature is about...and we are part of nature.

I know you are Christian.Heck, my parents were catholic...There is no point discussing with christains in this `blut und boden ` matter. You christians just won t get it.

Aequoreus
Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:34 PM
but I don’t think sarcasm and caricatures are the way to go here.

I apologise but I simply cannot keep the scorn out my posts from what I percieve to be peoples lack of understanding of how the real world works.

You shall have to tolerate it, though I will do my best to limit it.


… and I'm just wondering how many NS actually do this? Few if any, but it’s interesting to see how peoples’ perceptions are conditioned by the Jewish-controlled media these days!My perceptions are not conditioned by a controlled media - Jewish or not. I am going on personal experience with National Socialists from the British Isles.


Germany was a racially homogenous society back then and the mongrels (as you call them) have only appeared as a result of Hitler losing the war. One thing the Nazis were not is mongrels!I meant mongrel as an insult. I was not commenting on the ethnic homogenous of the German society in the early 1900s.


TBH, I always find it very sad when Christians resort to insulting their co-religionists (which the Nazis were – like it or not!) to appease Jews because it’s certainly not something they’d do for you!The Nazis were not my co-religionists. They were a mixture of Protestant and Neo-Pagans. They would have turned on the Catholic population eventually, just as Bismark had done not so long before.


In fact, most Catholics I’ve met in the UK have far more enmity towards Protestants than any other religious group, which again appears strange, and leads to situations such as we have in Northern Ireland.How can you possibly believe that to be strange? For centuries the Catholic population in the British Isles was subjected by a Protestant elite, who denied them the right to their faith and culture and ethnic identity. They then propped up a Jewish banking elite who eventually controlled them as they eventually controlled us.

The anomosity felt by Catholics in the British Isles towards Protestants is compeltely understandable in light of history and reason.


Personally, I'd have to say I much prefer people in "shiny jackboots" to the IRA!The IRA, P, R or C, has nothing whatsoever to do with this. But now that you bring them up..

Give me the Irish Republican Army,
Give me the Green, White, and Gold every time.
Give me the three-leaved shamrock of Ireland,
A land I love that is so divine.
Send the English back where they came from,
To Hell
Give us our country back again.
Give me the Irish Republican Army,
To make our land a nation once again.

I would rather have the IRA who fought for their people, for their nation for better or worse, than a bunch of street thugs who act tough in a crowd when they're beating up random ethnics for shits and giggles.


It's the reason why Catholics used to pray for the collapse of communism during every mass, why the Church played an active role in combatting communism, and why many of our Dutch and Flemish boys sacrificed their lifes on the Eastern front .

The sad result of this however, is that it played right into the Capitalist hands :(.


There is no such thing as equality in nature...

The Christian teaching is that not all men are equal in intelligence, strength, wealth, appearence or anything like that. The Christian teaching si that when you stand before God, you will stand as a man, a man with an immortal and rational soul, created in the image and likeness of God, a man who was given the choice: to choose God or to reject God, using the free will He gave you.

That is what the Christian teaching of equality is. Anything else you hear is a heresy.

Mjolnir
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:02 AM
I apologise but I simply cannot keep the scorn out my posts from what I percieve to be peoples lack of understanding of how the real world works.

You shall have to tolerate it, though I will do my best to limit it.

My perceptions are not conditioned by a controlled media - Jewish or not. I am going on personal experience with National Socialists from the British Isles.

I meant mongrel as an insult. I was not commenting on the ethnic homogenous of the German society in the early 1900s.

The Nazis were not my co-religionists. They were a mixture of Protestant and Neo-Pagans. They would have turned on the Catholic population eventually, just as Bismark had done not so long before.

How can you possibly believe that to be strange? For centuries the Catholic population in the British Isles was subjected by a Protestant elite, who denied them the right to their faith and culture and ethnic identity. They then propped up a Jewish banking elite who eventually controlled them as they eventually controlled us.

The anomosity felt by Catholics in the British Isles towards Protestants is compeltely understandable in light of history and reason.

The IRA, P, R or C, has nothing whatsoever to do with this. But now that you bring them up..

Give me the Irish Republican Army,
Give me the Green, White, and Gold every time.
Give me the three-leaved shamrock of Ireland,
A land I love that is so divine.
Send the English back where they came from,
To Hell
Give us our country back again.
Give me the Irish Republican Army,
To make our land a nation once again.

I would rather have the IRA who fought for their people, for their nation for better or worse, than a bunch of street thugs who act tough in a crowd when they're beating up random ethnics for shits and giggles.



The sad result of this however, is that it played right into the Capitalist hands :(.



The Christian teaching is that not all men are equal in intelligence, strength, wealth, appearence or anything like that. The Christian teaching si that when you stand before God, you will stand as a man, a man with an immortal and rational soul, created in the image and likeness of God, a man who was given the choice: to choose God or to reject God, using the free will He gave you.

That is what the Christian teaching of equality is. Anything else you hear is a heresy.

Thats in no way an answer to my manifest on christianity.
You are still repeating the same "truths" which you christains hold dear, which you have explained for 2000 years almost. There is only one truth, thats the thruth of nature.

There is no god...there is only nature...and nature hates the weak, nature has the will of the stronger. Christians are weakening our Germanic people.

Aequoreus
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:06 AM
Thats in no way an answer to my manifest on christianity.

Communism is a materialistic cultural and economic ideaology. Christianity opposes materialism. Christianbity hates materialism to its very core. It was Christianity that was the bulwark against Communism in Eastern Europe.

How in God's most beautiful green earth are Communism and Christianity going hand-in-hand?

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:08 AM
I knew that my reference to the IRA would get a reaction ;)

I also much prefer those who ...


fought for their people, for their nation for better or worse, than a bunch of street thugs who act tough in a crowd

... but we apparently disagree on who these are with me thinking the NS are the former and the IRA the latter.

Do you have any more stirring poetry BTW about all the civilians the brave IRA blew up with their bombs planted in shopping centres and pubs, or are they exonerated because they're Catholics?

Mjolnir
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:08 AM
Communism is a materialistic cultural and economic ideaology. Christianity opposes materialism. Christianbity hates materialist to its very core. It was Christianity that was the bulwark against Communism in Eastern Europe.

How in God's most beautiful green earth are Communism and Christianity going hand-in-hand?

Like I have said......Materialism isn t a part of nature. Christianity is in almost every other aspect the same as communism.

I have already posted this. See the post beneath this one.

Mjolnir
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:14 AM
Chlodo, still you can t ignore the christian influence nowadays. I know Christianity is much more than communism, but when push comes to shove, Communism ignores Christianity and vice versa.

The thing is, they (communism and Christianity) both adhere conformism, equality and to tolerate lesser people. There is no such thing as equality in nature...There is no such thing as tolerating people who can´t take care of their own in nature, in nations, can´t take care of their own blood..

Africa is an extreme example ( I agree, but it still is viable) of how much races differ, that fact you should take it into account (it has been there for 50 years or more), or any other place ruled by the democratic principle when there are demographically more blacks.They all FAIL.


If you can name one spot which is governed succesfully by blacks, name it....


South Africa is going down the drain since apartheid ended. Mugabe sent out the white farmers and now that nation is broke as hell (which means we are going to pay for it eventually...(by christian morals).

It doesn t mean I hate Africans, it does mean I find them inferiour. There is no such thing as being equal in nature.....and we are part of nature.

Christianity weakened our Germanic race, to the core.

Flemish and Dutch guys fought for our heritage, not for our liberal-christian thoughts nowadays...They died for a new Germanic ideal!!!! Don t use their sacrifices in vain, I will be offended.

Live and let die, thats what nature is about...and we are part of nature.

I know you are Christian. Heck, my parents were catholic...There is no point discussing with christains in this `blut und boden ` matter. You christians just won t get it.

Lex NATURALIS

Aequoreus
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 12:17 AM
I knew that my reference to the IRA would get a reaction ;)

I know that you wanted a reaction. You have been so nice since we started this discussion, I thought it the least I could do ;).


I also prefer much those who ...

... but we apparently disagree on who these are with me thinking the NS are the former and the IRA the latter.

This all just depends on where you're coming from, I suppose.


Do you have any more nice poetry BTW about all the innocent civilians the Catholic IRA blew up with their cowardly bombs planted in shopping centres and pubs, or is your judgement clouded by the fact they're YOUR people?

When the (P)IRA attacked innocent civilians, they were immoral acts and crimes against God. Innocent civilians should never be targeted. However lets keep a few things in mind. The (P)IRA's military campaign was aimed at crippling the British economy interests in Northern Ireland and Britain as a whole. The vast majority of its bombs were aimed with such goals in mind. The vast majority of those bombings had warnings and casualties were few.

Other bombs, also the vast majority of which, were against legitimate targets. Loyalist paramilitaries and British soldiers.

Very few bombs were aimed at innocent civilians. Most innocent civilians who died, were sadly collateral damage. In my opinion, any (P)IRA units that set out with the intention of harming innocent civilians, should have been court-martialed and shot.

However, the entire conflict should have been avoidable in the first place. I support what the (P)IRA had to do. They had to defend home and family against Protestant and British State terrorism. However, I do nt believe a continued armed conflict is the way to go.

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 01:00 AM
The bottom line is that the IRA were heavily involved in rackets and organised crime and eventually became a pseudo-Marxist group. They were basically murderous thugs, who even blew people up at a Remembrance Sunday parade to honour the dead for God's sake!!!

I think it's easy to get some romantic notion of them as "freedom fighters" because of their Nationalist objectives but they were just riff-raff recruited from local housing estates and financed by undesirables, including Soviet Communists and even Colonel Kadhafi at one point!

I wouldn't have brought this up but for the Catholic connection, and to see to what lengths you would go to defend your own kind (albeit with a few reservations). Funny though how squeamish you are about NS, which I could have understood had you just been a peace-loving Christian, but you're not!

In fact, you don't even like many of your fellow Christians despite the fact you keep referring to "Christianity" as a single entity. Interesting how you don't perceive Protestants (for example) as your co-religionists when they are also Christians, so I think you're really only interested in your own tribe rather than being a Christian in the wider sense.

Wanderer
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 01:38 AM
Interesting...the pope and vatican now grovel for those who are wise to their true motives to return to their fold of witless idiots. Defending Christian heritage? When Germany stood alone during the two most destructive wars ever fought, for all that is right and good in the human spirit, it was beaten into the ground and humiliated like no other nation in history...the rest of western civilization, including the vatican, seemed to have no problem with letting its greatest protector be crushed in the vise of a two-front war. So, why should Germans, or any other western Europeans, want to consort with the snakes that reside in the vatican? They're really just slaves to the new world order that the enemies of humanity want to establish.

I grew up in a conservative catholic household, and all I saw was an institution that wants its followers to believe that it alone has the key to the afterlife...we have souls, but they are not the property of the pope, or the vatican. As a young person growing up in the christian religion, the mind control begins early, and enslavement is often permanent. The hold has to be broken. Christianity is an invention of man, and a sinister one. People are better off finding religion in their community, with those who share their ideals.

Petervalhalla
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010, 02:32 AM
I know that you wanted a reaction. You have been so nice since we started this discussion, I thought it the least I could do ;).



This all just depends on where you're coming from, I suppose.



When the (P)IRA attacked innocent civilians, they were immoral acts and crimes against God. Innocent civilians should never be targeted. However lets keep a few things in mind. The (P)IRA's military campaign was aimed at crippling the British economy interests in Northern Ireland and Britain as a whole. The vast majority of its bombs were aimed with such goals in mind. The vast majority of those bombings had warnings and casualties were few.

Other bombs, also the vast majority of which, were against legitimate targets. Loyalist paramilitaries and British soldiers.

Very few bombs were aimed at innocent civilians. Most innocent civilians who died, were sadly collateral damage. In my opinion, any (P)IRA units that set out with the intention of harming innocent civilians, should have been court-martialed and shot.

However, the entire conflict should have been avoidable in the first place. I support what the (P)IRA had to do. They had to defend home and family against Protestant and British State terrorism. However, I do nt believe a continued armed conflict is the way to go.

Throughout all your posts on this thread you have continually stressed your Christian values and beliefs.

But in this post you mention "legitimate targets" and you say that "any (P)IRA units...should have been...shot."

So you are saying that killing is justified under certain circumstances.

I'm not an expert on Christianity, but aren't you being slightly inconsistent?

Aequoreus
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 12:39 PM
I'm not an expert on Christianity, but aren't you being slightly inconsistent?

You are right, you are not an expert. But nor am I either. However, there is the doctrine of Just War as laid out by St Thomas Aquinas, and legitimate authorities are allowed to deal out the death penalty under Christian teaching.

Aequoreus
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 12:54 PM
The bottom line is that the IRA were heavily involved in rackets and organised crime and eventually became a pseudo-Marxist group.

I wont deny that there were corrupt elements within the (P)IRA. But please keep in mind that it was nothing compared to the whole-sale corruption of Loyalist terrorist forces or British security forces.

The Marxist politics of the post-Border Campaign (P)IRA is of course a sad occurence, but understandable in light of the treatment Irishmen suffered under British and Protestant rule.


They were basically murderous thugs, who even blew people up at a Remembrance Sunday parade to honour the dead for God's sake!!!People honouring the British Army. But even then, the civilians were not the target of that bomb, they were unfortunate casualties. Servicemen were the target.


I think it's easy to get some romantic notion of them as "freedom fighters" because of their Nationalist objectives but they were just riff-raff recruited from local housing estates and financed by undesirables, including Soviet Communists and even Colonel Kadhafi at one point!Please, do not speak to me as if I was suffering some romantic dillusions of grandeur. I recognise the faults of the (P)IRA/SF movement after the Border Campaign before the Troubles. But I also understand why everything played out as it did.

I am curious though.. are you a nationalist? What could be more nationalist than normal everyday people fighting for their nation? Also, the recruitment went far beyond the housing estates. I would say it was a 60/40 split between urban and rural recruitment respectivley.

Even more so, the fact that you are trying to associate living on a housing estate with being almost less than human, you should keep in mind that the Irish people were forced into those ghettos by a Protestant terrorist state.

In regards to Soviet financing, I am not sure on the specifics. The majority of the cash flow into the (P)IRA came from America and Ireland. It is possible that the Soviets financed the (P)IRA. But it would just have easily been Hitler who financed the (P)IRA. Neither were interested in helping Ireland, but both would want to weaken Britain.


I wouldn't have brought this up but for the Catholic connection, and to see to what lengths you would go to defend your own kind (albeit with a few reservations).Stop painting the (P)IRA or any IRA movement as a Catholic movement, because unlike the Loyalist death squads, the (P)IRA or any incarnation of the IRA has not been religiously motivated and has not been sectarian to anywhere near the same extent as our Protestant cousins. Minor elements yes, the movement as a whole? Get real.


Funny though how squeamish you are about NS, which I could have understood had you just been a peace-loving Christian, but you're not!My reservations about National Socialism has nothing to do with its military outlook. It's the fact that it is a God-hating ideology. An ideology riddled with materialism and dogmatic secularism whose grass-roots supporters is quite.. I am sorry, but crazy!


n fact, you don't even like many of your fellow Christians despite the fact you keep referring to "Christianity" as a single entity. Interesting how you don't perceive Protestants (for example) as your co-religionists when they are also Christians, so I think you're really only interested in your own tribe rather than being a Christian in the wider sense.This is all dependent on your definition of what it is to be Christian. Therefore it is null and void to anything in this discussion.


the rest of western civilization, including the vatican, seemed to have no problem with letting its greatest protector be crushed in the vise of a two-front war.

This is really the only part of your post worth mention, in my honest opinion, and that mention is just an 'lol'. Bismark once said that Germany will never again return to Canossa, but.. well, I'll be waiting there with open arms ;).

velvet
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 02:34 PM
Mjolnir, Christianity and communism are archenemies, it's not because you dislike the both of them, that they're in fact the same thing.

Especially communism - which was so opposed to the old, traditional Christian order, in all its aspects - communist practical policies seemed to be all about the destruction of Christianity in the first place

Communism is highly based in judeo-christian views. What makes them "archenemies" is that communism doesnt like the concurrence of (the judeo-christian) 'god' in its system. The archenemy thing is about the idolised god figure (communism: the state), not about the system itself.

It is the same nonsense to claim that christianity would be inherently hostile to Judaism. It is not. Christianity was just a counter movement to orthodox Judaism. It was never meant to anyone else than Jews.


The anomosity felt by Catholics in the British Isles towards Protestants is compeltely understandable in light of history and reason.

The game is called "devide and conquer". A game christianity (or Judaism light) has always been good at. Christianity divided our folk into Catholics, Protestants, Amish, Lutherans, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, the Jesuits, the Mormons and round about 3000 other sects and subsects.

And while hostile immigrant sweep our lands, the christians fight each other :|


My God, what is it with you people? Isolationism has never worked. The Holy Father has a dialogue with other peoples, other faiths. This is quite a natural human occurrence. I assure you the Germanic cheiftains of old did not hide away in their little corners. As you say below, they have a warrior spirit.

They didnt give church asylum to criminal muslim scum. They didnt give entire church districts and church buildings to raiding muslim scum. They dont hide them to safe them from being send back home.

Just because one has contact with other folks doesnt neccessarily mean one has to house them.


The Holy Father prayed towards Mecca apparently. What some people do not realise is that before the Vatican II Council, Christians always prayed and celebrated Mass facing towards Jerusalem. You nor I know the intent of the Holy Father when he prayed then, but going by past actions I think it is a safe assumption that he was not praying to Mohammed.

So, you do a 'safe assumption' that he didnt pray to Mohammed. This would indeed be strange, because as far as I remember, the muslim god is called Allah, who is identical with YHWE.

Jerusalem / Israel is the holy land of the Jews, as well as YHWE is the god of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, all the stories in the bible tell about Jewish life and rules and customs, it tells about the homeland of the Jews. It is about Jewish values, Jewish virtues, Jewish laws.

In what way does this religion represent anything Germanic?

Aequoreus
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 03:55 PM
Communism is highly based in judeo-christian views.

A tired and stale formula. Care to actually demonstrate how this is the case?


It is the same nonsense to claim that christianity would be inherently hostile to Judaism. It is not. Christianity was just a counter movement to orthodox Judaism.

Orthodox Judaism is different from Talmudic Judaism which is what the Jewish people have now. Orthodox Judaism became Christianity. The Church is Israel.


It was never meant to anyone else than Jews.

Then why would the Holy Ghost guide the Apostles to bring the Truth to the gentiles?


The game is called "devide and conquer". A game christianity (or Judaism light) has always been good at. Christianity divided our folk into Catholics, Protestants, Amish, Lutherans, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, the Jesuits, the Mormons and round about 3000 other sects and subsects.

And while hostile immigrant sweep our lands, the christians fight each other

Where as before Christianity European people were divided by what tree they worshipped ;). Well, eitherway, the devil is strong and cunning. It is no wonder such heresies as Lutheranism and Calvinism exist.


They didnt give church asylum to criminal muslim scum. They didnt give entire church districts and church buildings to raiding muslim scum.

Evidence and examples, please?


They dont hide them to safe them from being send back home.

Oh, I am aware it's happened a few times in America in regards to Latin-Americans and I am sure I have heard a story or two about the same happening in Europe. However, these are simply minority and extraordinary cases, and in no way reflect the teachings of the Church.


Just because one has contact with other folks doesnt neccessarily mean one has to house them.

Nor have I said otherwise.


So, you do a 'safe assumption' that he didnt pray to Mohammed. This would indeed be strange, because as far as I remember, the muslim god is called Allah, who is identical with YHWE.

Oh, fair point, you got me there :~(! However, to say they are identical is not exactly true, is it? For a start, Christians believe in a Trinitarian God ;).


Jerusalem / Israel is the holy land of the Jews, as well as YHWE is the god of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, all the stories in the bible tell about Jewish life and rules and customs, it tells about the homeland of the Jews. It is about Jewish values, Jewish virtues, Jewish laws.

Of course it is! The Jewish people were entrusted with a task from God, they failed. When God took on human flesh, He came to fufill the Law. The fufillment of that law was the salvation of all men.

But you're confusing something.. there is a remarkable difference between the Israelites of 2000 years ago, and the Talmudic Jewish banking elite of the 21st Century. So do not speak of them as if they were of the same cloth when they are not.


In what way does this religion represent anything Germanic?

Hm.. let me see.. it couldn't be that generations of Germanic peoples have been freely Christian for centuries? It couldn't be that most of the modern day Germanic ethnic identities, culture and even language truly developed in the Christian era?

No, it cannot be that!

SaxonPagan
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Aequoreus, I am not going to haggle forever over the finer details of the IRA except to reiterate that it is to all intents a Catholic terrorist group. There are NO Protestants within it, only Catholics, and it has the support (to varying degrees) of 99% of the Catholic community so I don’t really think you can get much more Catholic than that!

Please note that I am not tarnishing all of Catholicism and have a lot of Catholic friends in France, but they don’t see things from such a narrow, sectarian perspective as you do. You even advocate (or at least excuse) terrorism against fellow Christians, and to justify this in your own mind you’ve decided to re-define Christianity by excluding Protestants. Well, I’m sorry to inform you that Protestants are just as Christian as Catholics and you don’t have any more of a claim on God than they do so it could be time to emerge from that bubble you’re living in.

Velvet is quite right – these different religious sub-groups are all part of the "divide and conquer" scenario that is proving so effective for your real enemies. You even appear to prefer Jews to Protestants from what I can gather, and all because of some regional dispute in the UK! How Germanic you are in the strictest sense I’m not entirely sure but when someone has missed the bigger picture by so wide a margin it’s very hard to see what use they’d be to the Preservationist cause anyway.

velvet
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Orthodox Judaism is different from Talmudic Judaism which is what the Jewish people have now. Orthodox Judaism became Christianity. The Church is Israel.

This should ring some alarm bells, shouldnt it?
When we talk about "christian heritage" to defend, and when the "church is Israel", what exactly is it what we should defend?

Do we refer to Europe, or do we in fact refer to Israel, which gets its greedy fingers ever deeper and deeper into the core of our people? Isnt it Israel (or how they like to call themselves: world Jewry) who designs our genocide?

There is no way for us Germanics to win this battle, when half the Germanics will rather fight against their own people than the real enemy :|



Then why would the Holy Ghost guide the Apostles to bring the Truth to the gentiles?

It havent been "the apostles", but Paul, who preached that poison alone and without consense of the other self-claimed apostles to the Gentiles.


Where as before Christianity European people were divided by what tree they worshipped ;). Well, eitherway, the devil is strong and cunning. It is no wonder such heresies as Lutheranism and Calvinism exist.

You see, one devil worship isnt better than the other, and to avoid misunderstandings: with devil I mean your god.


Evidence and examples, please?

www.brusselsjournal.com, for example, you'll find some interesting articles to this topic there.



Oh, fair point, you got me there :~(! However, to say they are identical is not exactly true, is it? For a start, Christians believe in a Trinitarian God.

You worship the same desert demon like muslims. No however twisted interpretation will change that.



Of course it is! The Jewish people were entrusted with a task from God, they failed. When God took on human flesh, He came to fufill the Law. The fufillment of that law was the salvation of all men.

Last time I checked the Jews are in charge of Europe and America. Doesnt really seem like anyone told them that they failed :oanieyes

Besides, I dont buy into this salvation nonsense. The "sins of men" was a Jewish thing, not a Germanic one, so we didnt need salvation.


But you're confusing something.. there is a remarkable difference between the Israelites of 2000 years ago, and the Talmudic Jewish banking elite of the 21st Century. So do not speak of them as if they were of the same cloth when they are not.

Well, the Jewish banking elite will disagree with you. And even if they agree, they still see themselves as the chosen people and act accordingly.

The problem starts when Germanic people adhere to a religion that has exactly this at the center of its cult: the Jews as the chosen people. Your book of hate is full of examples how Jews view Gentiles, as beasts with speech. Worthless creatures, that either serve the chosen people or die.

I would call this first class interest conflict, when the times comes to make a decision on which side to stand.

Btw, it is perfectly unimportant whether Jews of today still are the same people like Jews from 2000 years ago. They are not Germanic.



Hm.. let me see.. it couldn't be that generations of Germanic peoples have been freely Christian for centuries? It couldn't be that most of the modern day Germanic ethnic identities, culture and even language truly developed in the Christian era?

Freely?!? Nope, really not. And in what way massive wars in the name of Jews and for Jews (crusades, etc all the way to WWII), or against fellow Germanics who refused to become christian, should have served us in any way positive is out of my mind too.
I also dont see the benefit of writing down our history in latin or greek, instead of using our own language. I fail to see the benefit of christian churches being erected on Heathen holy sites. I fail to see the benefit in perverting the Germanic pantheon with the interpretatio romana. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This stuff is in depths discussed in the "Is christianity alien to Germanics" thread on over 100 pages though.

And still, it all remains interpretation and speculation. Just because christianity was present when those developments happened (and especially many science and medicine happened despite the church, certainly not because of), it long doesnt mean that it hadnt happened without christianity. In fact, the hints are legion that certain developments would have happened much faster without christianity, and for other things other solutions could have been found, which would benefit us today probably much more than what christianity allowed to come about.

Chlodovech
Saturday, March 6th, 2010, 09:14 PM
This is a good moment to quote Pope Leo XIII.

"For, indeed, although the socialists, stealing the very Gospel itself with a view to deceive more easily the unwary, have been accustomed to distort it so as to suit their own purposes, nevertheless so great is the difference between their depraved teachings and the most pure doctrine of Christ that none greater could exist: “for what participation hath justice with injustice or what fellowship hath light with darkness?” Their habit, as we have intimated, is always to maintain that nature has made all men equal, and that, therefore, neither honor nor respect is due to majesty, nor obedience to laws, unless, perhaps, to those sanctioned by their own good pleasure. But, on the contrary, in accordance with the teachings of the Gospel, the equality of men consists in this: that all, having inherited the same nature, are called to the same most high dignity of the sons of God, and that, as one and the same end is set before all, each one is to be judged by the same law and will receive punishment or reward according to his deserts. The inequality of rights and of power proceeds from the very Author of nature, “from whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named.” Pope Leo XIII on Socialism.

Aequoreus
Sunday, March 7th, 2010, 11:19 AM
Aequoreus, I am not going to haggle forever over the finer details of the IRA except to reiterate that it is to all intents a Catholic terrorist group. There are NO Protestants within it, only Catholics, and it has the support (to varying degrees) of 99% of the Catholic community so I don’t really think you can get much more Catholic than that!

You say the (P)IRA is a Catholic terrorist group, because its grassroots are Irish Catholics. My friend, I would rather ask my self why Catholics feel the need to support a so-called "terrorist" group than anything else. Why would 99% of the Catholic community support then (P)IRA? Again, it says more about the Protestant state and England than it does about Irish Catholicism.

As to your claim that no Protestants served as volunteers, I am going to take that with a pinch of salt and assume that instead you are employing hyperbole.

In regards to your claim that 99% of the Irish Catholic community supported the (P)IRA. I don't think so. You've clearly demonstrated your lack of knowledge on this subject and you unconditional surrender is quite frankly the only thing you can offer here to save some sense of face.

Dear God, even after Bloody Sunday, when the (P)IRA had its biggest boost in new recruits, I would still wage if you were lucky if even 80% of the Irish Catholic population gave support to the (P)IRA.

There is a major difference between support and empathy, by the way.


Please note that I am not tarnishing all of Catholicism and have a lot of Catholic friends in France, but they don’t see things from such a narrow, sectarian perspective as you do.

Then they are simply not good Catholics. Do they even go to Chapel on a Sunday? By the way, you sound like some liberal. Stop throwing around their nice little buzz words.


You even advocate (or at least excuse) terrorism against fellow Christians, and to justify this in your own mind you’ve decided to re-define Christianity by excluding Protestants.

For starters, Protestants have never been accepted as Christians by the traditional and orthodox Christian community (Catholic and Orthodox communities). In fact, it was not up until the build up to Vatican II that the religion of Luther was accepted as being "Christian" in a wider sense. Which of course sickens me.

Secondly, I have no advocated any form of physical violence against an innocent Protestant community. I have said I empathise with the (P)IRA's struggle against the British and Orange terror states. But again, I think that says much more about those two than it does me or any other Catholic.


Well, I’m sorry to inform you that Protestants are just as Christian as Catholics and you don’t have any more of a claim on God than they do so it could be time to emerge from that bubble you’re living in.

It's a shame Skadi doesn't have a 'rofl' emoticon. Hm.. let me see, the Catholic Church is the Church of God founded by Christ. Protestantism is a 16th century heresy that spread like wildfire amongst northern Europeans. It's roots are in Luther and Calvin, not Christ unlike my Church.

Again, stop using little buzz words like "narrow minded" or "living in a bubble". Honestly, you do sound like a liberal. I suppose you'll tell me next we can all just get a long :D!


Velvet is quite right – these different religious sub-groups are all part of the "divide and conquer" scenario that is proving so effective for your real enemies. You even appear to prefer Jews to Protestants from what I can gather, and all because of some regional dispute in the UK! How Germanic you are in the strictest sense I’m not entirely sure but when someone has missed the bigger picture by so wide a margin it’s very hard to see what use they’d be to the Preservationist cause anyway.

You're too narrow minded my friend. You must open up your mind, and come out of your bubble :).

SaxonPagan
Sunday, March 7th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Well, Aequoreus, I’m not going to argue forever (as I said previously) about the IRA and whether most Catholics “support” them or just “empathise” with them. However, they are widely recognised as a Catholic group and I think the fact they use bombs and bullets to further their aims qualifies them as terrorists too. However, my original reference to them was to highlight how Christians cannot even get on amongst themselves - something you have since confirmed!

It’s a shame that you pour scorn on my Catholic friends in France simply because they are not as militant as you. I realise you enjoy re-defining individuals and groups to suit your own narrow views but this doesn’t mean they are “not good Catholics” and I think they do their religion far greater credit than you fanatics!

Anyway, let’s sum up; The Pope has called upon Europeans to defend the Christian heritage but I'm wondering if Christians will even be able to define what this is. You in particular seem to have an issue with many other Christians (or not, as you perceive them) and whilst you're all bickering over who the "real" Christians are I'm afraid your enemies will keep gaining ground due to them being more united.

No wonder Europe is in such as state!

velvet
Sunday, March 7th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Hm.. let me see, the Catholic Church is the Church of God founded by Christ. Protestantism is a 16th century heresy that spread like wildfire amongst northern Europeans. It's roots are in Luther and Calvin, not Christ unlike my Church.

"Christ" has founded no church at all. Your belief as you know it didnt even exist before the end of the 2d century C.E., because a large part of the gospels werent written yet, and none of them base in actual experiences, and while Markus and Lukas at least knew (most likely, but not 100 percent proven) the heretic hippy freak called Joshua of Nazarene, Paul, on whose letters the founding of the church later bases, did not know him.

And again, nothing of this happened on European soil. Although Paul was a Greek Jew, his "teachings" were first listened to among North Africans, and the construct infiltrated the Roman Empire from there. And later it has been in the semitic part of the Empire (Byzantine) that it ceased to be a prosecuted sect. And it was only when Byzantine became the center of power in a declining empire that it became an acknowledged religion, and Constantine employed it as a power tool. Noone to that time cared about the spritiual value or lack thereof, it was just an instrument to shift power and establish a new order.

An interesting side note is that christianity was best promoted in the multicultural cesspool the eastern part of the empire has been. It attrackted outcasts, the poor, the ill, the weak, whores and criminals, culturally and ethnically highly confused people. A group of people rapidly growing in a declining empire as large as the Roman empire.

It's funny over and over again that people who claim for themselves to have eaten all the wisdom of the catholic church dont know the history of their sect.

Btw, what you call heresy was the first and only serious try to Germanise this Jewish sect. But because the catholic church prefered to steal their richness through the sell of letters of indulgence, Luther was excommunicated for his belief that the salvation from sin is solely gained through faith in god, and can never be gained through money. It is funny that his hypocrisy is bought by so many people, the catholic church has herself never acted according to the oh so highly claimed teachings of Jesus, but they demanded that from their followers, most of all when it served to make the church even more rich. So much to christianity despises materialism. It only preaches that to get their greedy fingers easier onto the materials of others.

Mjolnir
Tuesday, March 9th, 2010, 01:00 AM
Communism is a materialistic cultural and economic ideaology. Christianity opposes materialism. Christianbity hates materialism to its very core. It was Christianity that was the bulwark against Communism in Eastern Europe.

How in God's most beautiful green earth are Communism and Christianity going hand-in-hand?

Thats is where Christianity went wrong. The only thing which differs in Christisnity and Communism is RACE...Blood AND Earth (BLUT UND BODEN), genes and Nature's laws.

Christianity persuits equatalriaism and is defying all sensable laws of nature.. (Like "all men are created equal").
Communism is defying all racial laws on top of that.

CharlesMartel
Wednesday, July 28th, 2010, 04:57 PM
Pope Benedict XVI also prayed that people would rediscover, appreciate and defend the rich cultural and Christian heritage that has has been part of Europe for centuries.


More... (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeedprox y.google.com%2F%7Er%2FNationalPolicyInst itute%2F%7E3%2FB6PSu40BR0k%2F)

Good article. Thanks.