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OnionPeeler
Thursday, December 5th, 2002, 05:58 AM
I split the thread "Who knows in depth about Volkish asatru?" since the topic had split away from Aryan character/folkish beliefs (my own fault it seems).

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That a religious entente must exist, subliminated by the greater concern of race and character, seems to me a given. But the matter is not without major problems. Christianity on the whole can morph into a racially aware faith, but it is a stretch. I see three areas where 'tolerance' will only breed division.

1) Christian militancy, briefly mentioned in Point 24, whether its form is evangelism, abortion or 'Christians for Diversity', is unquestionably distractive and divisive. Militancy has only one acceptable place.

2) Any mode which de-emphasizes race, tribal character and Aryan idiom is bad news. And let's face it, only the most submissive (to the cause) forms of Xianity avoid these. How can we argue for the pre-eminence of community and race while others ~believe~ in the paramount individual soul?

This means it is not we pagan/atheists who need to compromise and adapt but Xians and particularly...

3) Old guard Americans. Whether we like it or not, America will probably be a leader due to her size and large white population. But she is strangled by this Americo-Christian remnant with fifty years of failure culminating in capitulation to the Racial Marxists. These people, Buchannan, Duke, SF, can not acknowledge that the right's intelligensia has always been primarily pagan/atheist - that the very character is heathen replete with a little splash of fatalism. They shudder like children in the dark at the mention of 'nihilism' which is integral to the barbarian spirit and then wonder why 'their' movement is so weak. They are already outnumbered in America and have long been outnumbered in Europe. It's time to assert - they can ride along or get out.

Tolerance on these three points means still more stasis, or worse, outlawry.

Ederico
Thursday, December 5th, 2002, 12:21 PM
I agree with OnionPeeler's analysis in his last post, as always his knowledge and intelligence should be a guiding light for us less mature, or rather young individuals here.

Moody
Thursday, December 5th, 2002, 05:20 PM
Theism.

It was Alfred Rosenberg's contention that Christianity was, before its perversion by the Jew Paul/Saul, a racially aware faith.
Not only that, Rosenberg thought that Judaeo/Christianity had stolen many of its tenets from Aryan religiosity.
He instances the Ten Commandments, which he claims were based on an Aryan Nine Commandments.

Furthermore, the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' refers to race-mixing which is therefore condemned by God.

Such an Aryanised Christianity is perfectly feasible, and would moreover allieviate the stupid sectarian squabbles of the present Churches within the Racial State.

Point 24 allows religious tolerance so long as religion does not "militate against the moral feelings of the German race" [25 Points of the NSDAP].

That morality is Race Morality; therefore Christianity will have to re-adopt its Racial Morality and reject the modern Liberal Morality which militates against it.

In Nietzschean terms, it is a transvaluation of all values; Master Morality returns, and Slave Morality departs.

MY own copy of the 25 Points is in the Party manifesto booklet of 1934 called 'The Programme of the NSDAP'.
Point 24 is there expanded upon;
"...it must be our principle not to drag questions of religion into statements on general politics; although we may treat the corrupting influence of the secret doctrines of Judaism as an object for public statements and attacks.
The same applies to all the stupid attacks on Christianity. Expressions such as 'Christianity has only done harm' merely show that the man who says them has neither human nor political intelligence.
One may well blame the Church for meddling in politics, and all good Christians will disapprove the cruelties practiced in the name of the Cross by the Inquisition and the trials for witch-craft, but it is wrong to abuse in general terms the greatest phenomenon in human history for the mistakes and depravities of individuals.
The Christian religion has raised and edified millions and brought them to God by the way of suffering.
The culture of the Middle Ages stood up in the sign of the Cross; achievement, sacrifice, courageous faith have their roots in Christianity.
Thus we must be careful to distinguish the inner spiritual kernel of Christianity from the various forms of excresence which have appeared upon it in its passage through history".
['Programme of the NSDAP and its General conceptions', 1934]

If we take into account the first four of the 25 Points it becomes apparent that a Christianity in such an Aryan-Only State will reflect Aryan values, and be subordinate to the over-riding Racial conception.

Of course, such things as 'diversity' will be seen for the lies they are - not diverse, but dividing the Race against itself.
The only Evangelism will be that of the Ideal of Race.
We must also remember the great vein of anti-Semitism in Christianity [e.g., Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies'] which can be drawn upon.
Abortion will only be recommended for the unfit and diseased, while the best specimens of the Race will breed well - in the latter case, abortion will be a crime.

A Christianity like that of today only reflects the current mania for race-mixing pushed by the political/media/business establishment.

I disagree that care for the soul militates against Race. I believe in only the Race Soul, as does every healthy religion.
I think that individualism and cosmopolitanism are characteristic of atheism more than anything else. And wasn't Soviet Russia the great experiment in an Atheist State?
Atheism I regard as non-Aryan, and typical of Jewish materialism. For me the whole point of Aryanism is the belief in a Higher Order of Beings.

Also there is much in modern paganism which has been infected by New Ageism which also believes in a harmful One-Worldism.
Surely Individualism, cosmopolitanism and New Ageism bear the hall marks of the Jewish corruption of Aryan Spirituality.
This corruption can be quickly remedied by the sort of Programme proposed and largely effected by the Hitler government.

Again, Christianity was a superficial veneer laid over a very deep tribal/Racial outlook. Once the latter is re-vivified, the alien aspects of Christianity will fall away.
You must be aware of C.G.Jung's short essay 'Wotan', written in about 1936; here he states that the God of the Germans is not really Jesus but Wotan. However, this does not mean that a rather artificial Wotan worship should be 'reintroduced'; such would be insincere and unnecessary. All that's needed is a return to the conception of Race; this will transform everything else, and Christianity will be an Aryan Christianity.

It strikes me that the most effective White Racial movements were 'theist', not 'atheist'; I'm thinking of the NSDAP and the KKK of course.

I wonder if it is possible to have a heathenry which is not in anyway touched by Christianity [and vice-versa]. Most of the heathen documents from Europe are from the early Christian period, and there was a certain filtering via Christian values.
Likewise, Christianity made use of the pagan festivals Yule [Xmas] and Ostara [Easter].

I really think that if we adhere to something like the 25 Points and thereby repudiate the liberal elements of modern Society/Christianity, then an Aryan Racialist Christian will be able to work alongside an Aryan Racialist Pagan.

Ederico
Thursday, December 5th, 2002, 06:48 PM
Moody Lawless your last post was interesting. Personally yours is the position I endorse in relation to religious matters. Although I would find the complete removal and abhorrence of Christianity in all its denominations as of little concern to me or something positive, I do not believe it is achievable even in the rosiest prediction of White Nationalist Neo-Pagans and Atheists which are anti-Christian.

Definitely if Christianity is to stay it is to achieve a Racial Dimension essential to the White Racialists Racial Ideals such as the National Socialist Ideals.

I do not see the removal of Christianity from the Aryan realm as a viable and probably achievable solution, at least in our lifetime or even in the lifetime of our children (let's hope we have some) and grandchildren (let's hope we have some too).

Moody
Thursday, December 5th, 2002, 08:18 PM
That's a good point.

For a Racialist movement to embark on a Purge of Christianity would cast us back hundreds of years to the Wars of Religion where millions of Aryans were killed by other Aryans - insane!

Hitler recognised that the aim was to convert our fellow Aryans to our cause - and what Aryan wouldn't see the logic of an Aryan Racial Order once the Jew-Media has been toppled?

Hitler said;

"I envisage the future as follows: first of all, to each man his private creed. Superstition shall not lose its rights.
The Party is sheltered from the danger of competing with the religions. These latter must simply be forbidden from interfering in future with temporal matters".
[Adolf Hitler,'Table Talk' 14th october 1941, midday, special guest Himmler]

This makes a nice distinction - religion will be tolerated, but it will not be allowed to be political.

The political goal is the highest;

"The chief aim to be pursued by a national State is conservation of the ancient racial elements which by disseminated culture, create the beauty and dignity of a higher humanity".
[AH Mein Kampf II,11]

OnionPeeler
Friday, December 6th, 2002, 12:54 AM
As always, great post, Lawless. And I agree that Xianity 'fits' into NS, but I feel the reverse is not so.

It's true that where ever Xianity has gone, it has been stamped with the local culture. This is also the origin of a conflict between 'personal salvation' and group survival, between supernaturalism and fatalism.

While Xianity can reside comfortably under NSism, the reverse is not true. With the state as instrument, Germany achieved remarkable cultural success with out resorting (contrary to popular opinion) to Stalinist extremes of enforcement. They were, of course, tapping the German psyche. Their mode lacked deistic motivations and appealed to honor, discipline, group, courage, etc and not any sort of personal salvation.

This conflict at the leadership/ideology layer is unavoidable so long as Xian leader holds salvation - hence denigration of the physical shpere - central. And, naturally, Xianity can't very well back down from such a fundamental component. But they can retain their belief in salvation while working in a NS framework which emphasizes here-and-now.

The full development of Aryanist culture can not proceed under overtly Xian leadership. Xians in this position are constantly forced to defend the indefensible. The problem is greatest in America which typically generates 'hard' Christianity (even while the mainstream has sunk to ripe depravity).

For example, SF's policy of forbidding religious discussion is not, as stated, to avoid divisive issues, but to protect the elevated status of counter-productive, old guard Xianity. Where ever Xianity is 'in charge' and overt in the movement it comes under immediate attack or boycott by heathens, atheists and NS ideologues. Since the religion is woefully indefensible (Kierkegaard's despair), the counter reaction is vehement and the schism palpable. Conversely, in the mostly areligious environment we've been talking about, Xians can integrate.

It seems to me to be a matter of necessary hierarchy. But then, I guess that's what we've been saying all along here.

Moody
Friday, December 13th, 2002, 08:00 PM
Theocracy.

You are right to suggest that in a Xtian Theocracy, National Socialism[N-S] would be an unwelcome guest - yes; but then historical examples show that the Xtian Church in power always punished heresies - in fact those closest to home ['how many angels on that pinhead'] were punished the most severely.

So the distinction between an inherently intolerant Xtian Theocracy and N-S is revealed in Point 24 of the NSDAP; the latter allows religious tolerance and emphasises 'positive Xtianity', although it seems fairly obvious that the long-term plan was for an Aryanisation of all tolerated religions.

I maintain that the western world has long since left behind Theocratic rule, although the residual conflicts you speak of between say 'personal salvation' and 'fatalism', are no doubt due to that early [or 'middle'] period of Xtian Theocracy in Europe.

However, by all accounts, pagan religion in pre-Xtian Europe was very much a 'family affair', with the head of the household presiding over household gods.
Worship was not formularised, and often done in the open [hence 'heath -en', 'pagan' etc.,].
I rather think that if you had examined all the various approaches to the gods in pagan Europe you would have seen a myriad of 'conflicting ideas' [think here of Hinduism in India].
However, because religion was then kept separate from 'politics', men did not fight over them.
I think a Viking would have thought it absurd to fight over an interpretation of the gods!

I believe that Hitler tapped into that pre-Xtian pagan archetype of the Germans [as Jung recognises in his 'Wotan' essay], which places religion back into the family enviroment, and thus revivifies all those group values you talk of which are the fundamentals of Race Thinking.
This was only achieved by paradoxically NOT making an issue of religion - the old gods were able to re-assert theirselves, as they had done already in the poetry of Rilke.

Just as the Romans allowed all subject peoples to keep their gods and assimilate them to the Roman gods. Disagreement only came in the Empire if such peoples refused to acknowledge the actual, political and spiritual figure of the Emperor as supreme - hence the trouble with the Jews and Jewish-Xtians in the Romanum Imperium: and here we are back to your point, but clarified: the problem is not with Xtianity, but with the Jews.

The point is that a theocracy is non-Aryan per se - it is Judaic. Nietzsche says that Jews were left in the strange position in antiquity of only having two levels of their society left - the priesthood and the rabble. Hence the Jewish promulgation of Theocracy, or rather Priestocracy.

In Aryan society the 'priesthood' such as it is, is always subordinate; Aryan Leadership is ideally a Warrior Leadership.
As I said, Aryan religion is a family affair, although great Aryan Leaders are always blessed by the gods [naturally through Leaders being of good family], and will dedicate their deeds to the innumerable gods.

It strikes me though, that belief in Aryanism has a spiritual foundation in itself. I think that those who are suffering Existentialist angst and are atheists, would also be dismissive of Aryanism.
What is an Aryan to a misanthropic nihilist?

Is it possible that the religious schism you talk of masks an uncertainty about the validity of the uniqueness of the Aryan Race?

Thanks for the kind comments.