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dazed&confused
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 08:03 PM
"Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff" (Frank Zappa).
That's self-evident, we don't need a proof for that, don't we? :-O

14th_Helenka
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 08:54 PM
It dosnt work because its tool of the JEW its that simple its not a political theory just a control method




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Jews are impure and their synagogue is a house of
prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the
DOMICILE of the devil, as is also the soul of the Jew.
Jews WORSHIP the devil: their rites are criminal and unchaste:
THEIR RELIGION IS A DISEASE.
St. John Chrysostom
--------------------------------------------------

Abby Normal
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 09:24 PM
It dosnt work because its tool of the JEW its that simple its not a political theory just a control method LMAO. This statement alone is enough to make me consider turning to Communism.

Marius
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 10:05 PM
First of all because humans do not like to be equal each other.

Second, because they do not like to share something they work over.

Third, because of the first two, a group become a communist burgeoisie. And used the ideas of communism to gain power and control.

dazed&confused
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 10:10 AM
So I have to know why, if marxism is unanimously recognized as a disastrous ideology, some people still refer themselves as being 'communists', expecially in my country (Italy). Did they ever read anything of Marx? And if so, did they understand it?

Telperion
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 04:42 PM
So I have to know why, if marxism is unanimously recognized as a disastrous ideology, some people still refer themselves as being 'communists', expecially in my country (Italy). Did they ever read anything of Marx? And if so, did they understand it?Because they persuade themselves that since 'full communism' (as they call it) has never existed anywhere, the failure of particular attempts at centrally-planned socialism (the stage between capitalism and communism) does nothing to discredit Marxism. For these people, Marxism is basically a sort of secular religion, which is attractive precisely because its predictions are unfalsifiable.

Incidentally, an excellent book to read on the topic of why all centrally-planned economies must eventually fail is 'The Socialist System: The Political Economy of Communism' by Janos Kornai, published by Princeton University Press, 1992. His argument, in essence, is that a centrally-planned command economy contains certain inherent inefficiences (rooted in the de-facto demonetarization of the economy and distorted incentives) which necessarily compound themselves over time and eventually lead to the collapse of the system.

Rachel
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 05:09 PM
Online copy of Communism with the Mask Off by Joseph Goebbels

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb58.htm

Or you could just pick up Mein Kampf :D

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 05:22 PM
Communism fails for several reasons. Frankly I hate to see how some over-emphasize the purely economic defects of the system and fail to look at the higher spiritual faults of the system. Communism attempts to eradicate the sacred, and this alone marks it for failure and its destructive nature.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 08:19 PM
In a current debate with a Trotskyist about working class involvement in the NSDAP at phora.org, I posted these quotes from William Brustein's book The Logic of Evil: the Social Origins of the Nazi Party, 1925-1933 concerning the Communists.

on page 158:
And finally, many workers might have chosen the Nazis over the Socialists and Communists because the leftist lexicon and ideology were frequently too abstract and too far removed from the daily lives of workers. George Orwell, an intellectual socialist, may have aptly captured socialism's and communism's failing in his Road to Wigan Pier, published in 1937. In his explanation of the European's left inablility to counter the popular appeal of fascism Orwll states: "As for technical jargon of the Communists, it is far removed from the common speech as the language of a mathematical textbook. I remember hearing a professional Communist speaker address a working class audience. His speech was the usual bookish stuff, full of long sentences and parenthesses and 'Notwithstanding' and 'Be that as it may', besides the usual jargon of 'ideology' and 'class-consciousness' and 'proletarian solidarity' and the rest of it."

As Rubstein also explains on page 137-138:
"As appealing as the communist utopia appeared to many German workers, daily improvements in their lives probably concerned them more....During the Depression, many German workers probably viewed the Communist calls for a general strike as harmful to their immediate preoccupation -keeping their jobs. The Communisty Party's policy of requiring party members to maintain trade union affiliation proved impossible to carry out and conflicted with other aspects of German working class life. Communist leaders' unwillingness to accept the legitmacy of the non-Communist labor movement was an additional example of infexibility and no doubt hindered the party's chances to compete successfully with the SPD and the NSDAP for working class support....In sum, because the party protrayed itself as an outsider, and one unwilling to comprimise, many potential supporters probably decided to affiliate themselves with another working class party."

Further explaining the faults of Communism.

Siegfried
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 08:23 PM
Communism fails for several reasons. Frankly I hate to see how some over-emphasize the purely economic defects of the system and fail to look at the higher spiritual faults of the system. Communism attempts to eradicate the sacred, and this alone marks it for failure and its destructive nature.

I fully agree with you on this one - though we probably have different perceptions of what the sacred entails :)

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 08:28 PM
I fully agree with you on this one - though we probably have different perceptions of what the sacred entails :)

Well lets not trouble ourselves with that just yet, and enjoy our moment of solidarity. :)

Telperion
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 11:23 PM
I wouldn't dispute that Communism is also defective on the spiritual level. However, since their worldview is entirely materialistic, it is advantageous to explore its economic deficiencies in depth - this allows one to explain, in a debate, why their system cannot live up to its promises of a better material life, even on its own terms.

By contrast, if you debate the materialistic nature of Communism per se with a Marxist, they will simply categorically reject your points, and you will end up talking past each other. Demolishing their arguments on their own terms is a more effective way of dealing with them, in my experience.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 09:34 PM
I wouldn't dispute that Communism is also defective on the spiritual level. However, since their worldview is entirely materialistic, it is advantageous to explore its economic deficiencies in depth - this allows one to explain, in a debate, why their system cannot live up to its promises of a better material life, even on its own terms.

By contrast, if you debate the materialistic nature of Communism per se with a Marxist, they will simply categorically reject your points, and you will end up talking past each other. Demolishing their arguments on their own terms is a more effective way of dealing with them, in my experience.

Thats true. What I was mainly talking was all this "Well people just dont like to share" "I cant be a Communist because there are some things I want to be mine", or "I hate Communism because I want to be rich", or as one dope once told me "Communism sucks because there'd be no MTV"(Im not joking somebody actually said this to me). Thats mainly what Im talking about really, rather the petty materialist arguments against Communism.

Telperion
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 12:31 AM
as one dope once told me "Communism sucks because there'd be no MTV"(Im not joking somebody actually said this to me).
:D That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard, actually.


Thats mainly what Im talking about really, rather the petty materialist arguments against Communism.
You're certainly right to criticize these sorts of 'arguments', since they discredit the people who make them, rather than discrediting Communists.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 07:29 AM
Communism said it was a system which was for the people and so was ideally designed not to exploit them. On the other hand, Capitalism is alledgedly for the individual but for the success of that individual, many people seem always to be exploited. Both have failed in my mind.

tasmanik
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 08:15 AM
So I have to know why, if marxism is unanimously recognized as a disastrous ideology, some people still refer themselves as being 'communists', expecially in my country (Italy). Did they ever read anything of Marx? And if so, did they understand it?
Communism couldn't work because our minds are not yet prepared for such a thing. It all looks very well in theory, for everyone to have the same ammount, but in that case who would want to work. Still, I must say, it is a noble fantasy, and some people just like to escape from the reality of this world. Yet, I don't really think that the party in your country has a very different programm then others, they just like to call themselves communists.

La Canadienne
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 08:28 AM
I will put this in a simplified manner and briefly. Imagine you are a doctor and you make the same wages as the janitor, does it seem a bit unfair? The flaw here is that the system is based on the idea that people are "altruistic" and altruism really is not something a majority of people can base their life on. Due to the equality complex less and less people want to be trained as specialists as the financial outcome is the same. Therfore there are less doctors, lawyers, dentists and so forth. In the pst propoganda was used to rally the people up to get trained to help contribute to "the greater good" and to help the motherland and some believed it, but not all.

Another major flaw is that communism allows room for autocratic control. Imagine if one leader comes to power and he seems great to start with, but he really sells everyone into military slavery. This is something that has happened often with communism. The tragic part is really you have no say in lawmaking and politics so often you are subject to propoganda so it all seems wonderful and you are made to obey "or else."

Communism is far too an "idealistic" system rather than a practical one. It has failed throughout history.

dazed&confused
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:42 PM
I'm glad to see we all agree about the wrong communist intent of eradicate private property, free enterprise, autonomous work and also religious customs. The local communist party abjured marxism-leninism about few years ago, and now they are more an ultra-leftist party than anything else.

I remember my grandfather once told me he went in Romania and the local people couldn't believe him when he said he was a working-class member with 3 kids to worry about but with 3 cars! Probably none of them could afford 3 cars.
I hope this doesn't sound like an apology of wild capitalism, anyway. :)