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Haldís
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 04:56 PM
I don´t want non-european admixture but given the fact that you are slavic, finno-ugric and phenotypically baltid you have mongolian DNA as well. :oanieyes :shoot :headbang :nut


There are no pure races.are you part mongol or negro? ;)


Finnland isn´t Germany either, as far as I know. ;) never said it is? ;(

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Reginleif, although racial purety is desireable, it is a fact that there are no "pure races" anymore.

As a proclaimed German National-Socialist you sure are familiar to Dr. Hans F.K. Günther´s works? He related the alpine and east-baltic race to the mongolian race - of course with a great racial distance.

With mongolian DNA I´m refering to the works of Cavalli-Sforza, modern genetic science and maps like this:

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:10 PM
As a proclaimed German National-Socialist you sure are familiar to Dr. Hans F.K. Günther´s works? He related the alpine and east-baltic race to the mongolian race - of course with a great racial distance.

With mongolian DNA I´m refering to the works of Cavalli-Sforza, modern genetic science and maps like this:

Alpine? Mongolian Race?

Who said this and based on what? :)

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:13 PM
are you part mongol or negro?

I´m part East-Baltic and so are you ;)

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Alpine? Mongolian Race?

Who said this and based on what? :)

Prof. Dr. Hans F.K. Günther, Germany´s most important and most influental Anthropologist in "Rassenkunde des Deutschen Volkes" based on morphologic similarities.

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Prof. Dr. Hans F.K. Günther, Germany´s most important and most influental Anthropologist in "Rassenkunde des Deutschen Volkes" based on morphologic similarities.

Well, I found something on the net about it. I have not read the work, especially I think it is very hard to find now, since it was written during the 30s. In the few pages I found on the net, there was no mention on what you said, but since I assume you read the whole work, I cannot say no.

Are there more modern works which claim the same thing?

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 05:34 PM
I´m not so familiar with all this mtDNA studies, maybe Euclides could help out.

As for Günther, he called the alpine race "ostische Rasse" (eastern race) to point out its immigration from the east and its affiliation with the "innerasiatische Rasse" (mongolian race).
I can go in detail if it is desired, but definitely not today.

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Hahaha, laughable... Btw...the Germans are also heavily assimilated people:

http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/

50 EU18
37.5 EU7
6.2 EU4
6.2 EU19

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 07:25 PM
Btw...the Germans are also heavily assimilated people:

Says the hun...

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 07:43 PM
lol, take a look at the Hungarian genes on the genetic table. We are real indo europeans unlike the Germans. ;)
You are a clown. :handclap :rofl

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 07:53 PM
lol, take a look at the Hungarian genes on the genetic table. We are real indo europeans unlike the Germans. ;)

Yeah Attila, I have no doubt you are Indo-whatever :)
You also were very brave allies during WW2 :D

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:25 PM
You dont know genetics, and you dont know history at all.
For example Huns have nothing common [no genetic or historical link] with the Hungarians, except the name of the country. [It was named after the Huns -> Hungary, because the Hun mainland was here.]
Btw talking about the Huns..
Did you knew that the Huns raped the German women, and used the German men as slave fighters in their armies? Have you ever heard about the battle of Catalaunum? :D
I seriously doubt that you know anything, you dont even know your own people. ;)
All you can do is to say laughable things, as we can see it in the topic as well. You have no idea, what you are talking about at all, in most cases. Congratulations, you must be an educated man. :D :D

ww2...another long story. :P

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Is that gene study on that website serious?

There are many people in Europe, not included, for example, Romania.

Instead, you can find Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Mari, Udmurt...

"Nice" study. :)

Pluspol
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:30 PM
As for Günther, he called the alpine race "ostische Rasse" (eastern race) to point out its immigration from the east and its affiliation with the "innerasiatische Rasse" (mongolian race).
He called the Alpine race many things. :-O

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Of course it is totally valid and serious. Tes sadly Romania isnt on the list, it wasnt analysed.
The full analysis can be found here:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf

;)

However I doubt that our German friend, Zyklop will understand a single thing from it. :D :D

Zyklop
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:33 PM
It was named after the Huns -> Hungary, because the Hun mainland was here
Obviously no historical link ;)


Did you knew that the Huns raped the German women
That´s because a German woman never would touch a hun by free will. It speaks for itself that you are proud of this...
I know about the Catalaunum fields. Isnt´t that where your ancestors´ bones lie broken and ashamed?


ww2...another long story
For those who did fight it was :D

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:35 PM
No, I wonder why Romania is not inside of it and other non-European countries are...

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Zyklop, seriously I dont wanna hurt your little feelings but you are totally retarded. :P
1. The Huns have nothing to do with the Hungarians. The Magyars were our ancestors, and they also had no genetic or historical relations with the Huns.

2. If you would know a little about genetics, you could inspect that genetic table. That is what matters. The Germans are not that pure by blood like the Hungarians, Poles, Serbs, Russians for example.
You are so proud of that 50% EU18 haplotpye marker? :D
Germans are so far from Aryans, like the Earth from the Moon. ;)

3. If the Mongoloid Huns raped the German women, dont you think that YOU might have some mongoloid ancestry? :D :D .. because the Slavs and Hungarians dont have any. ;)

You should learn history and genetics, before posting your "out of my ass" ideas, because imho lot of people are laughing at you. :P


@marius:

I doubt that the Romanian people would have too many indo-european genes anyways, however an analysis would be nice. :)

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 10:32 PM
I think this one is better:

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/turkdnaresults.htm

Marius
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Really? Why do you doubt it so much? As I find in the previously posted website, I see Hungarians seem to have 30% (much lower than any other Germans) and Romanians have 18%.

Still, I have no knowledge about the rigurosity of these studies and whether they are not simply commanded by some interest groups with commanded results, too.

Awar
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Could you please both just chill-out? Let's not use genetics for mudslinging.

Stephen
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 11:47 PM
I think this one is better:

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/turkdnaresults.htm

Really? Why do you doubt it so much? As I find in the previously posted website, I see Hungarians seem to have 30% (much lower than any other Germans) and Romanians have 18%.

^
This is Y - DNA Results for the TURK Family of Surnames. :P



http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf -> This is what inspecting the population. Hungarians do have 60% EU19. It is even higher then in Poland. We are in the middle of the Slavic lands, so no wonder, its very logical. White Russians arent on the list, but they have more than 60%, in fact they have the highest amount of EU19 [indo-european] haplotype marker on the planet.
IMO, the EU9 haplotype must be dominant in Romania, but I am unsure, I couldnt find a genetical analysis so far.

AWAR, we need to talk about genetics a little, we must clear the things with our German friend. ;)
If he will understand it at all...:D

Stephen
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Okay I gave up for today, I couldnt find a Romanian genetical analysis, I will try again tomorrow. :D

Triglav
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 02:11 AM
@Zyklop: What exactly do you assume to prove with Cavalli-Sforza's map? There is no "mongolian DNA" in Slavic populations there.

Tore
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 04:36 AM
With mongolian DNA I´m refering to the works of Cavalli-Sforza, modern genetic science and maps like this:

This map is essentially useless as far as determining admixture among populations. Although it depicts large frequencies of the M9 lineage among North-Eastern Europeans, the M9 lineage is not umambiguously Mongoloid or Caucasoid, and likely predates the split between the two groups in Eurasia.

The existence of Sforza's clines are predicated upon the settlement of Europe from the Neolithic onward, which is a false assumption to begin with.

Zyklop
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 07:58 AM
As I pointed out before, I´m not very familiar with genetic markers. If the M9 isn´t mongolian enough, what about the Tat-C?

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3503
There already is a thread about this topic:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4823&page=1&pp=20

Genetics aside, the East-Baltic race has a mongolian affiliation. I don´t even need Günther (in fact a nordicist) to point that out:

Neo-Danubian
Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.

East-Baltic
Stabilized but variable northeast periphery blend of Borreby and/or Fälish with Neo-Danubian and/or Ladogan racial type.

Source: www.nordish.com

My point was to show Reginleif, a partly baltic and slavic girl, that there are no pure races anymore, and thus a need for genetic tolerance exists. Wether this tolerance is 1/4 or 1/1024 non-european admixture is debatable.

Marius
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 09:00 AM
^
This is Y - DNA Results for the TURK Family of Surnames. :P


Look more attentive, please !!!

It is true there is concentred on the Turk family of surnames. BUT, read carefully the general observations section, which refer to all European people and then it is followed by the observations on that family.

Anyway, I will paste it here, in order to avoid future miss-understanding:

"According to Y-Chromosome Haplogroups the following rules generally pertain to Hg1, Hg2 and Hg3: If you have a value of "12" at DYS426 and DON’T have a value of "11" at DYS392 then you belong to Hg1. If you have a value of "11" at DYS426 then you belong to Hg2. If you have a value of "12" at DYS426 and a value of "11" at DYS392then you belong to Hg3.
Haplogroup 1 (Hg1) Generalized Overview:

The definition of Hg1 is NTGCATGGG+AG. [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg1 as R1b (2002)].

In the Human Races Calculator the Hg1 (Eu18) in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Cornish 82%, Irish 81%, Scottish 79%, Basque 73%, Western Scottish 72%, Spanish 68%, Belgian 63%, Northern Portuguese 62%, Pakistani Hazara 61%, East Anglian 56%, Southern Portuguese 56%, Danish 50%, French 50%, Bavarian 48%, Icelandic 46%, Italian 44%, Dutch 43%, Ossetian 43%, German 40%, Hungarian 30%, Sardinian 30%, Sephardic Jews 30%, Norwegian 29%, Pakistani Burusho 28%, Pakistani Parsi 27%, Armenian 25%, Pakistani Kashmiri 25%, Pakistani Makrani Baluch 24%, Northern Swedish 23%, Slovenian 21%, Kurdish 20%, Turkish 20%, Czech 19%, Georgian 19%, Pakistani Baluch 19%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 18%, Polish 18%, Romanian 18%, Bulgarian 17%, Gotlander 17%, Muslim Kurds 17%, Slovakian 17%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Muslims 16%, Latvian 15%, Pakistani Balti 15%, Chuvash 12%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 12%, Pakistani Sindhi 12%, Ashkenazi Jews 11%, Greek 11%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars 11%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 11%, Pakistani Pathan 11%, Yugoslavian 11%, Belorussian 10%, Mari 10%, Pakistani Kalash 10%, Cypriot 9%, Estonian 9%, Pakistani Brahui 8%, Palestinian Arabs 8%, Russian 7%, Saami 6%, Lithuanian 5%, Northern African 4%, Ukranian 4%, Finnish 2%

"The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" by Ornella Semino et al. presents a frequency chart by populations for various haplotypes. The Eu18 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Basque-French 88.9%, Basque 86.4%, Catalan 79.2%, Dutch 70.4%, Andalusian-Spanish 65.5%, Central-Northern Italian 62%, French 52.2%, German 50%, Czech and Slovakian 35.6%, Calabrian 32.4%, Greek 27.6%, Sardinian 22.1%, Albanian 17.6%, Polish 16.4%, Syrian 15%, Georgian 14.3%, Hungarian 13.3%, Udmurt 11.6%, Croatian 10.3%, Macedonian 10%, Saami 8.3%, Turkish 6.6%, Lebanese 6.4%, Ukrainian 2%

Semino’s study concludes that two lineages have been present in Europe since Paleolithic times. One of these is characterized as M173. Eu18 derives from this lineage. M173 is described as "an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago, spreading the Aurignac culture. This group appeared almost simultaneously in Siberia, from which groups eventually migrated to the Americas." The Aurignac settlement in Europe predates the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).

The Eu18 Paleolithic population group retreated into the Iberian Ice Age Refuge during the glacial period (20,000 to 13,000 years ago). After the Ice Age they moved out of the refuge and expanded rapidly from the Iberian Peninsula. The haplogroup Hg1 is most common in Western Europe.
Haplogroup 2 (Hg2) Generalized Overview:

The definition of Hg2 is NCGCATCGG+AG NT. [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg2 as I (2002)].

In the Human Races Calculator the Hg2 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Gotlander 59%, Yugoslavian 49%, Georgian 48%, Northern Swedish 48%, Ukranian 48%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars 44%, Bulgarian 42%, Sardinian 40%, Pakistani Kalash 39%, Belorussian 34%, Norwegian 33%, Danish 32%, Dutch 32%, Icelandic 32%, Armenian 31%, Saami 31%, East Anglian 30%, Hungarian 28%, Romanian 27%, Slovenian 27%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 26%, French 25%, Turkish 25%, Chuvash 24%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 24%, Bavarian 23%, Belgian 23%, Finnish 23%, Cypriot 22%, Greek 22%, German 20%, Czech 19%, Western Scottish 19%, Cornish 18%, Muslim Kurds 17%, Polish 17%, Russian 17%, Slovakian 17%, Northern Portugese 16%, Pakistani Pathan 16%, Irish 15%, Estonian 14%, Italians 14%, Southern Portugese 14%, Lithuanian 13%, Spanish 13%, Latvian 12%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 12%, Scottish 12%, Sephardic Jews 12%, Ossetian 11%, Pakistani Brahui 10%, Pakistani Sindhi 9%, Basque 8%, Pakastani Balti 8%, Pakistani Burusho 7%, Ashkenazi Jews 6%, Bedouin 6%, Kurdish Jews 6%, Palestinian Arabs 6%, Mari 4%, Pakistani Hazara 4%, Northern Africa 3%, Pakistani Parsi 3%, Algerian 2%.

The haplogroup Hg 2 entered Europe when Neolithic (New Stone Age) farmers migrated into Europe from the Middle East in two waves. The last of these waves arrived about 8,000 years ago. Hg2 is most common in Southern and Central Europe, but it is also seen in those of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian descent.
Haplogroup 3 (Hg3) Generalized Overview:

The definition of Hg3 (Eu19) is NTGCATGGG-AA [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg3 as R1a (2002)].

In the Human Races Calculator the Hg3 (Eu19) in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Indian Uttar Pradesh 58%, Pakistani Kashmiri 58%, Polish 54%, Pakistani Sindhi 49%, Russian 47%, Slovakian 47%, Pakistani Balti 46%, Pakistani Pathan 45%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars 44%, Latvian 41%, Belorussian 39%, Pakistani Brahui 39%, Czech 38%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 37%, Slovenian 37%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 36%, Lithuanian 34%, Norwegian 31%, German 30%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 30%, Ukranian 30%, Mari 29%, Pakistani Baluch 29%, Pakistani Burusho 28%, Pakistani Makrani Baluch 28%, Estonian 27%, Hungarian 22%, Icelandic 21%, Saami 21%, Romanian 20%, Northern Swedish 19%, Pakistani Kalash 19%, Chuvash 18%, Gotlander 16%, Yugoslavian 16%, Bavarian 15%, Ashkenazi Jews 13%, Dutch 13%, Bulgarian 12%, Muslim Kurds 12%, Finnish 10%, Bedouin 9%, East Anglian 9%, Greek 8%, Pakistani Parsi 8%, Danish 7%, Scottish 7%, Western Scottish 7%, Armenian 6%, Georgian 6%, French 5%, Turkish 5%, Belgian 4%, Kurdish Jews 4%, Sephardic Jews 4%, Cypriot 2%, Italian 2%, Ossetian 2%, Southern Portugese 2%, Spanish 2%, Irish 1%, Palestinian Arabs 1%

"The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" by Ornella Semino et al. presents a frequency chart by populations for various haplotypes. The Eu19 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Hungarian 60%, Polish 56.4%, Ukrainian 54%, Udmurt 37.2%, Macedonian 35%, Croatian 29.3%, Czech and Slovakian 26.4%, Mari 13%, Greek 11.8%, Syrian 10%, Albanian 9.8%, Lebanese 9.7%, Saami 8.3%, Georgian 7.9%, Turkish 6.6%, German 6.2%, Italian 4%, Dutch 3.7%.

Semino’s study concludes that two lineages have been present in Europe since Paleolithic times. One of these is characterized as M173. Eu19 derives from this lineage. M173 is described as "an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago, spreading the Aurignac culture. This group appeared almost simultaneously in Siberia, from which groups eventually migrated to the Americas." The Aurignac settlement in Europe predates the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).

The Eu19 Paleolithic population group retreated into the Ukrainian Ice Age Refuge during the glacial period (20,000 to 13,000 years ago). After the Ice Age they moved out of the refuge and expanded rapidly from the Ukraine. Subsequent transmigrations may have resulted in elements of this group returning to that area from Central Asia. "Haplotype Eu19 has also been observed at substantial frequency in northern India and Pakistan as well as in Central Asia. Its spread may have been magnified by the expansion of the Yamnaia culture from the ‘Kurgan culture’ area (present-day southern Ukraine) into Europe and eastward, resulting in the spread of Indo-European language."

The Haplogroup Hg3 is seen more frequently on the eastern side of Europe. It is also common in Scandinavia, and is said by some to be indicative of "Viking blood" when seen in paternal lines originating in the British Isles.
Haplogroup 9 (Hg9) Generalized Overview:

The definition of Hg9 (Eu9) is NCGCATCGG+AG PG [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg9 as J (2002)].

In the Human Races Calculator the Hg9 (Eu9) in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Bedouin 66%, Palestinian Arabs 55%, Ashkenazi Jews 43%, Algerian 41%, Muslim Kurds 40%, Pakistani Parsi 39%, Kurdish Jews 37%, Ossetian 34%, Cypriot 33%, Turkish 33%, Armenian 29%, Greek 28%, Pakistani Brahui 28%, Sephardic Jews 28%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 24%, Pakistani Makrani Baluch 24%, Romanian 24%, Georgian 23%, Italian 20%, Pakistani Sindhi 20%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 18%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 17%, Pakistani Kashmiri 17%, Pakistani Balti 15%, Bulgarian 12%, Northern African 12%, Pakistani Baluch 12%, Czech 11%, Indian Uttar Pradesh 11%, Pakistani Kalash 10%, Southern Portuguese 9%, Yugoslavian 8%, Danish 7%, Dutch 7%, Pakistani Burusho 7%, Chuvash 6%, Mari 6%, Northern Portuguese 6%, Pakistani Pathan 6%, Slovenian 6%, Bavarian 5%, Belgian 5%, French 5%, Pakistani Hazara 4%, Polish 4%, Russian 4%, German 3%, Hungarian 3%, Slovakian 3%, Spanish 3%, Belorussian 2%, Northern Swedish 2%, Norwegian 2%, East Anglian 1%, Estonian 1%, Irish 1%. Hg9 is defined as "Semitic".

"The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" by Ornella Semino et al. ( http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/ ) presents a frequency chart by populations for various haplotypes. The Eu9 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Turkish 40%, Georgian 33.3%, Lebanese 29%, Albanian 23.5%, Calabrian 21.6%, Greek 21%, Macedonian 15%, Syrian 15%, Italian 14%, French 13%, Slovakian 8.9%, Andalusian 6.9%, Ukrainian 6%, Sardinian 5.2%, Croatian 5.2%, Basque 4.5%, Catalan 4.2%, Hungarian 2.2%.

Semino’s study estimates that Eu9 (M172) to be about 15,000 to 20,000 years old. The age estimate of this haplotype cannot distinguish whether it came to Europe before or after the LGM. Therefore, haplotype Eu9 represents the male contribution of a demic diffusion of farmers from the Middle East to Europe. The contribution of the Neolithic farmers to the European gene pool seems to be more pronounced along the Mediterranean coast than in Central Europe. The diffusion of Neolithic farmers affected Southern more than Central Europe.
Haplogroup 21 (Hg21) Generalized Overview:

The definition of Hg21 is PCACATCGG+AG. [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg21 as E3b (2002)].

In the Human Races Calculator found the Hg21 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Northern African 77%, Algerian 52%, Greek 28%, Cypriot 27%, Ashkenazi Jews 23%, Palestian Arabs 20%, Sardinian 20%, Bedouin 19%, Sephardic Jews 19%, Bulgarian 17%, Hungarian 17%, Southern Portuguese 17%, Italian 13%, Yugoslavian 13%, Kurdish Jews 12%, Northern Portuguese 11%, Belarussian 10%, Slovakian 10%, Spanish 10%, Turkish 10%, Bavarian 8%, Czech 8%, Dutch 8%, French 8%, Pakistani Baluch 8%, Muslim Kurds 7%, Romanian 7%, Russian 7%, Slovenian 7%, Chuvash 6%, Ossetian 6%, Pakistani Parsi 6%, Pakistani Makrani Baluch 4%, Ukranian 4%, Armenian 3%, East Anglian 3%, Estonian 3%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 3%, Belgian 2%, Danish 2%, Finnish 2%, Georgian 2%, Irish 2%, Northern Swedish 2%, Norwegian 2%, Pakistani Pathan 2%, Pakistani Sindhi 2%, Polish 2%, Western Scottish 2%

"The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" by Ornella Semino et al. presents a frequency chart by populations for various haplotypes. The Hg21 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Georgian 6.3%, Sardian 1.3%. Hg21 is a North African Neolithic lineage."

Stephen
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 10:44 AM
My point was to show Reginleif, a partly baltic and slavic girl, that there are no pure races anymore, and thus a need for genetic tolerance exists. Wether this tolerance is 1/4 or 1/1024 non-european admixture is debatable She didnt knew this already? :P



Genetics aside, the East-Baltic race has a mongolian affiliation. It is possible, but surely not all of the east baltids have mongoloid genes.


@marius
I told you 2 times, this is -> http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf or http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/ are proper genetical analysis, it was in the science magazine as well, and accepted by all genetics on the world. I have no idea that what are those things on the website what you have found. ;)


Genetically there are no mongoloid genes in the Slavic population [Poland,Ukraine,Slovakia,Hungary,Sebia etc.], just check out the genetic tables. In some cases there are, example on the Isle of Hrvat in Croatia, the people there have some mongoloid genes, because they are mix of the Avars & Croatians. [Avar invasion]
There are some more examples as well, but this bullshit about the Slav - mongoloid genes is ridicolous. :D

Marius
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 10:57 AM
Are you a Genetician, Istvan? Do you work in this area?

What I posted is what I simply found on the net, not being an expert. I think, the opinions of non-experts over the area are equal.

So, if you are an expert, ok, accept my excuses, if not, I don't see where is the problem. :)

Stephen
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 11:14 AM
Nop, I am not, all I told you, that this: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf
was a true genetical analysis made by lot of geneticians[check the bottom part of the analysis], and was presented in the science magazine as well.
This isnt enough proof for you? :P [I dont know that why Romania was left out btw...]

Marius
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 11:31 AM
Listen, Istvan, I do my activity in the Science area, not at all in the Genetics. I am a beginner. But, I do not see why Genetics would make an exception to the following rule: in each area of a domain, there are parallel works of different research teams worldwide; these works may or may not validate each other.

My point was not the fact that Romania was forgotten, but the idea that each one of us, may find, on the web, research works which seem to favorise our own Nation. I think it is even more the case for this area of Genetics. So, I posted what I found by simple Google keyword search.

And second, in what Science Magazine? There are many Science Magasines and to be sincere, I do not think all of them are so "scientific" they pretend, but rather journalistic and impression-based magasines.
I prefer the Journals edited by the Research Societies, like the ones of Elsevier.

Stephen
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 11:37 AM
You know my name in Hungarian. :thumbsup

marius, I am not favorising anything, you are very wrong, but this publication, what I posted is accepted everywhere [not just on the internet], and it surely was a deep genetical analysis. [check out the names of the geneticians who made it] If I am correct it was presented inthe Science magazine in 2000, but I dont know that exactly when..

Marius
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 12:52 PM
You know my name in Hungarian. :thumbsup

marius, I am not favorising anything, you are very wrong, but this publication, what I posted is accepted everywhere [not just on the internet], and it surely was a deep genetical analysis. [check out the names of the geneticians who made it] If I am correct it was presented inthe Science magazine in 2000, but I dont know that exactly when..

Ok, I think this becomes too unrelated to the topic so we'd better discuss it on PMs.

Tore
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 07:42 PM
what about the Tat-C?

What about it?

The M9 lineage is ancestral to both haplogroup 7C (Hg12/NxN3) and Tat-C(Hg16/N3), markers which are Europid in origin, brought to Siberia by North-Eastern European males.

Thus, the M9 lineage is technically more Mongoloid than Tat-C (with neither being umambiguous evidence of Mongoloid ancestry).

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Villems2004.pdf

...among the Yakut the above-mentioned paternal line is more numerous than among even the Estonians or Finns. It now appears, however, that this circum-arctic paternal line more likely migrated from Eastern Europe to Siberia than vice versa. In determining the original home of gene lines, internal divergence is of greater importance than frequency of occurrence.This parameter is, however, considerably higher among the Finno-Ugrians of Europe. This leads to a very important generalisation: the extensive overlapping of the paternal lines of Siberian Ugrians and Finno-Ugrians, to which there is no parallel among maternal lines, is proof of an extensive eastward flow of genes caused predominantly by men, presumably in the late Upper Palaeolithic period.


Genetics aside, the East-Baltic race has a mongolian affiliation. I don´t even need Günther (in fact a nordicist) to point that out:

A Mongoloid and a Lappanoid element are two different things as far as admixture relates.


Neo-Danubian

Type doesn't exist.


East-Baltic

Exists, though there is no mention of a Mongoloid component.


Wether this tolerance is 1/4 or 1/1024 non-european admixture is debatable.

Hence the huge importance of the Tat-C issue, as it determines whether North-Eastern Europeans have significant or negligible Mongoloid admixture.

Triglav
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 08:21 PM
The M9 lineage is ancestral to both haplogroup 7C (Hg12/NxN3) and Tat-C(Hg16/N3), markers which are Europid in origin, brought to Siberia by North-Eastern European males.


The M9 haplogroup is said to have mutated from M89 about 80,000 years ago and is ancestral to both Mongoloid and Europid groups.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13349

Tommy Vercetti
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Germans are so far from Aryans, like the Earth from the Moon. ;)


But germans are germans, and that's the only thing that counts, no matter what they are :P

Tore
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 11:07 PM
The M9 haplogroup is said to have mutated from M89 about 80,000 years ago and is ancestral to both Mongoloid and Europid groups.

Precisely my point, though I was unsure of the exact mutation estimate.

Stephen
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 12:17 AM
But germans are germans, and that's the only thing that counts, no matter what they are :P
:handclap

Polak
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 12:58 AM
:oanieyes :shoot :headbang :nut

are you part mongol or negro? ;)

never said it is? ;(


Really???

I would like to see some studies proving that Slavs have more Asiatic blood then, say, Scandinavians.

Where are they???

Polak
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 01:00 AM
As I pointed out before, I´m not very familiar with genetic markers. If the M9 isn´t mongolian enough, what about the Tat-C?

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3503
There already is a thread about this topic:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4823&page=1&pp=20

Genetics aside, the East-Baltic race has a mongolian affiliation. I don´t even need Günther (in fact a nordicist) to point that out:

Neo-Danubian
Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.

East-Baltic
Stabilized but variable northeast periphery blend of Borreby and/or Fälish with Neo-Danubian and/or Ladogan racial type.

Source: www.nordish.com

My point was to show Reginleif, a partly baltic and slavic girl, that there are no pure races anymore, and thus a need for genetic tolerance exists. Wether this tolerance is 1/4 or 1/1024 non-european admixture is debatable.


Here we go, another "genius".

Do some reading, on this forum as a start, then debate the issue.

Zyklop
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 07:50 AM
Here we go, another "genius".
Do some reading, on this forum as a start, then debate the issue.
At least you know it :)
Well, I did some reading before, namely your thread,
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4758&highlight=
where you wrote:

Moreover, scientists believe that Tat-C is indeed of East Asian origin.


"The Tat-C haplogroup was observed at significant frequencies in each of the southern Middle Siberian populations studied (fig. 2). Surprisingly, it reached its highest frequency in the Siberian Eskimos and Chukchi from the Chukotkan peninsula. The Tat-C haplogroup was absent in the Lower Amur and Sea of Okhotsk region populations that have maintained greater geographic and/or linguistic isolation (e.g., the Udegeys, Nivkhs, and Upriver Negidals) and was only detected in the populations likely to have had recent contact or shared origins with the populations of southern Middle Siberia (e.g., the Okhotsk Evenks, Ulchi/Nanai, and Downriver Negidals). Because the Tat-C polymorphism originated on a Y chromosome containing the DYS7C deletion (haplogroup 7C), which was present only in the Middle Siberian Tuvans, Buryats, Tofalars, and Yenisey Evenks, the Tat-C haplogroup probably entered the Lower Amur and eastern Siberia from southern Middle Siberia. This conclusion is consistent with the previous hypothesis that the Tat-C and 7C haplogroups arose in central Asia and migrated west to northern Europe and east to Chukotka (Zerjal et al. 1997).

The network of Tat-C and DYS7C haplotypes (fig. 4) revealed that the ancestral Tat-C haplotype (7C[11-11-10-10]) was found only in southern Middle Siberia, indicating that this Y-chromosome lineage arose in that region.


Does this mean those carrying Tat-C are Mongol descendants. To me it doesn't, but to many (most?) scientists it does. And that's mainly because races are not really their primary concern.

At least they are scientists. ;)


There is also more data on this very site showing foreign admixture, mtDNA and Y-chromosome, all over Europe. The Spanish, for instance, are showing more than 2% of Mongol mtDNA, while the Finns up to 4%. Thus, Poland is not alone.


I've just started to look at these blood markers today, and I think they came from a Finno-Ugric source

Ok, then let´s call it uralic:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=466&highlight=

It is presumed that the eastern or so-called "Mongoloid morphological features and genetic markers, or the "eastern roots" of the Finno-Ugrians, originate in from the Uralic race and not in Mongolia, where the population belongs to the quite different "true" Mongoloid race.
Do we agree that uralic is a non-european admixture?

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5025&highlight=

The Finns of Eastern Finland, Karelians, Vepses, Ijores and Eastern Estonians are characterized by a different set of traits. In the vast majority of groups studied, height is lower, the head is more brachycephalic (cephalic index is more than 80.0), the face is shorter (morphological facial index is less than 90), the nose is lower, and concave nasal profiles are quite frequent. The forehead is straight and the browridges are only weakly developed, which allows us to chracterize a portion of these groups as gracile. It should be reiterated that some of these groups are extremely light pigmented, and simultaneously display weak Mongoloi admixture. This complex of traits is typical of the East-Baltic type.


It is intersting to note that in many ways, the East-Baltic type is intermediate between the Lappinoid and the Atlanto-Baltic types (Scandinavian and West Baltic). Paleoanthropological data tells us that this is not accidental.

The Oracle
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 01:53 PM
Soon we'll be able to bypass the uncertainty surrounding Tat-C — and gender-specific markers in general — by looking at autosomal DNA. Not enough studies have been conducted yet, as geneticists are hung up on old methods, but we do have some preliminary assessments:


Am J Phys Anthropol. 1990 Sep;83(1):57-68.

Uralic genes in Europe

Guglielmino CR, Piazza A, Menozzi P, Cavalli-Sforza LL.

Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita di Pavia, Italy.

We have analysed data of three European populations speaking non-Indoeuropean languages: Hungarians, Lapps, and Finns. Principal coordinate analysis shows that Lapps are almost exactly intermediate between people located geographically near the Ural mountains and speaking Uralic languages, and central and northern Europeans. Hungarians and Finns are definitely closer to Europeans. An analysis of genetic admixture between Uralic and European ancestors shows that Lapps are slightly more than 50% European, Hungarians are 87% European, and Finns are 90% European. There is basic agreement between these conclusions and historical data on Hungary. Less is known about Finns and very little about Lapps.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2221031&dopt=Abstract


Also, Dr. Frudakis noted studies at Yale and Stanford which showed "considerable East Asian admixture in Eastern European, Russian and Northern European populations". The article is by Noah A. Rosenberg et al., Genetic Structure of Human Populations, Science, Vol. 298, (2003), pp. 2381-2385. In the words of Dr. Frudakis, "Their results and ours are trying to tell us something very very interesting about human anthropology — something nobody else yet knows...which makes the test very interesting in my mind".

What I found particularly interesting was his next assertion, about there being "no East Asian admixture in the Spanish or the British, Italian or Greek" — in those lands farther removed from the Far East than Russia or Lapland. Another important comment from Dr. Frudakis was that in his view, genealogists "spend too much time focused on geopolitical boundaries, which are human constructs, and subject to human failings. This test focuses on biogeographical boundaries, and so it is not surprising the results from the two types of analyses do not jibe 100% of the time."

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/G/GENEALOGY-DNA+2003+14202722407+F

Polak
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 02:07 PM
First of all, I don't really care about Tat-C personally, because it's very rare in Slavic populations.

It's actually more common in Scandinavia than in Poland, for example.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of vague statements on various websites, but no specific info, concerning the autosomal tests by Dr. Frudakis.

For example, the assertion that Russians have East Asian admixture hasn't yet been backed up by any solid data.

If anyone has this data, then I would really like to see it. It would be fascinating.

Polak
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 02:27 PM
In fact, here are two attachments.

The first one is the article reffered to in the above quote posted by "Oracle". Someone please show me which part of the article backs up this quote.

The second attachment is an autosomal study of various populations, including Finns and Poles.

Enjoy...

Triglav
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 05:19 PM
Here's the discussion "The Oracle" copied:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2003-04/1049506407

Further:
http://www.familytreedna.com/faqdnaprint.html

Odin Of Ossetia
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 07:17 PM
^
This is Y - DNA Results for the TURK Family of Surnames. :P



http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf -> This is what inspecting the population. Hungarians do have 60% EU19. It is even higher then in Poland. We are in the middle of the Slavic lands, so no wonder, its very logical. White Russians arent on the list, but they have more than 60%, in fact they have the highest amount of EU19 [indo-european] haplotype marker on the planet.
IMO, the EU9 haplotype must be dominant in Romania, but I am unsure, I couldnt find a genetical analysis so far.

AWAR, we need to talk about genetics a little, we must clear the things with our German friend. ;)
If he will understand it at all...:D




I think that the EU19 is a Slavic gene; therefore, Hungarians are 60% Slavic. :-O


It is logical for the Belarussians (White Russians) to have the highest amount of this gene, since Belarus is the original Slavic homeland.


By this token:

Slavs = Indo-Europeans :D


:)

slavia
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 07:26 PM
Yes, the hungarians are very Slavic. Poles have the same amount from the indo european gene I think.

Polak
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 02:26 AM
Hungarians don't have 60% of HG3 (R1a).

Only one early study found such a high level of HG3 in them, and subsequent studies have found much less - as little as 22%.

From all the studies I've seen, Hungarians seem to have about 30% of HG3 on average - same as most Balkan Slavic populations.

Btw, Hungarians also show quite a bit of Germanic genes (Ia and Ic).

So they appear to be mostly Slavic and Germanic, with some Finno-Ugric.

Stephen
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 10:14 AM
That 22-30 sounds very odd. The site found by Marius is a good example.
It is containing that 22 - 30. Frankly I have no idea that what is that all.
That doesnt look like a serious research.

On the other hand, this was a real genetical analysis, just check the reference names..
This isn't early at all, it is from 2000. It is appeared in the Science Magazine as well.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf


There cant be such a difference. 60 - 22/30. Impossible.
One of them is surely wrong. What I posted is accepted by everyone, as I said it was a deep genetical analysis.

Marius
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 11:34 AM
Since you are no expert in Genetics, Istvan, you are not entitled to say that what you found and what you know is accepted by everyone. You simply do not know the field enough. Have you tried finding other research works or you just found this one, it made you happy and now you say everyone should accept it?

Scientifically, I have the same power to declare the same thing on what I found.

If you want, I found something else, this time realised by a group of researchers from many Institutes and countries:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v67n6/002082/002082.text.html

Stephen
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 12:05 PM
That link shows us a totally different research Marius. :P
Anyways you are right, but I trust better in a serious genetical analysis than some "I found a site with other informations". ;)
The one what I showed you is well known by everyone, and also accepted.
I won't argue, pointless, I dont wanna prove you anything.
Think what you want. :)

aftermundo
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 12:43 PM
I agree with Stephen that it is a reliable study. I believe that hungarians are 60 % eu19. The source of the study is very reliable.

However it is stupid to equate haplo groups with haircolours, like eu19 stands for lightbrown hair and eu7 is dark hair. That is just nonsense.

It is also nonsense to equate single haplo groups to tribes (slavs, celts, germanic etc). All tribes were originally a mixture of several haplo groups. The Slavs, Celts, Germanic, Romans etc were already mixed themselves of several haplo groups.

Polak
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 02:28 PM
There's a very good reason why I don't believe Hungarians have 60% of R1a.

And the reason is the sample size.

ONLY 45 HUNGARIANS WERE TESTED!!!

In such a small sample size we could've easily got 70% or 80% with R1a. You dig?

Such sample sizes are not representative of the Hungarian gene pool. They can't be.

Enlarge the sample size somewhat, and you get much different results.

Here are the results from a sample size of 113 tested this year....

ONLY 20.4% of R1a!

Ok, and another study of 113 Hungarians, this time from 2000.

ONLY 18.6% of R1a!


Shit, looking at those numbers, I don't think Hungarians even have 30% of R1a on average - it's more like 20%.

So I don't really care who accepts your study. What matters is the sample size, and the bigger the sample size, the more valid the study, all other variables remaining the same.

I have attached both studies below for your perusal. Good day sir. :D

Stephen
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 04:49 PM
Actually all of these are part of the 22% research, you showed nothing new. :oanieyes
I dont think that the sample size matters anything. This is a huge difference, what is impossible, I dont trust in this "22% research". That would mean that 50 had 60% EU19, and the rest had 0 EU19? :D They were inspecting blacks? :D .. or in the research what you showed us, all of the samples had 22%, while in the other research they had 60% average??? Impossible.

I talked with lot of people, who said that the one what is hosted on the stanford site is surely valid, and reliable, in fact most of the sites on the net are using that as evidence in these things.
Good day sir. :)

aftermundo
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 06:32 PM
There's a very good reason why I don't believe Hungarians have 60% of R1a.

And the reason is the sample size.

ONLY 45 HUNGARIANS WERE TESTED!!!

In such a small sample size we could've easily got 70% or 80% with R1a. You dig?

Such sample sizes are not representative of the Hungarian gene pool. They can't be.

Enlarge the sample size somewhat, and you get much different results.

Here are the results from a sample size of 113 tested this year....

ONLY 20.4% of R1a!

Ok, and another study of 113 Hungarians, this time from 2000.

ONLY 18.6% of R1a!


Shit, looking at those numbers, I don't think Hungarians even have 30% of R1a on average - it's more like 20%.

So I don't really care who accepts your study. What matters is the sample size, and the bigger the sample size, the more valid the study, all other variables remaining the same.

I have attached both studies below for your perusal. Good day sir. :D
Very interesting. I guess I didnt take into account the amount of samples. You were right Polak.

Northern Paladin
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 06:44 PM
To say their Mongols is a Complete Fallacy. But I would say that some of them Especially those from North Eastern Europe do sometimes possess Pseudo-Mongoloid Traits...such as High Cheek Bones...more facial fat(esp around the eyes)...snub nose.

This is a big group of people only a few among the Many Slavs Balts...exhibit Mongolid or Pseudo-Mongoloid Traits. No doubt some of this is due to having to face the same evolutionary conditions(Extreme Cold). Another component I say this is true in Russia is that their is a Significant Mongoloid Genetic Compotent in some groups of Slavs because of the History of Mongol Invasion.

slavia
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 09:54 PM
LOOOOL! Slavs are mongoloid???? What????:cheer

The Blond Beast
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 12:27 AM
Another component I say this is true in Russia is that their is a Significant Mongoloid Genetic Compotent in some groups of Slavs because of the History of Mongol Invasion.

Mongoloid mtDNA in Russia regionally:

Archangelsk (country isolate) - 2.6%
Pskov - 1.5%
Pskov (country isolate) - 6.3%
(Great) Novgorod - 3.7%
Jaroslavl - 2.4%
Vladimir - 0%
Kostroma - 1%
Kaluga - 0%
Tula - 0%
Ryazan - 0%
Orel - 0%
Kursk - 3%
Saratov - 3%
Lower Novgorod - 2%
Belgorod - 0%
Krasnodar - 0%
Stavropol - 0%
Rostov - 0%
Bashkiria (country isolate) - 6%
Magadan - 0%

Stephen
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 11:55 AM
Very interesting. I guess I didnt take into account the amount of samples. You were right Polak.Absolutely dont agree, it isnt the sample size what matters. The people who gave the samples, that is what matters. This 22% is impossible. No idea what research was this, and what people gave the samples, but this cannot be. Maybe 20-30+ samples were tested from gypsies, that is possible even. More than 1 million gypsies can be found in Hungary sadly.

Marius
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 01:02 PM
Maybe 20-30+ samples were tested from gypsies, that is possible even.

Aren't Gypsies Indo-Europeans? So, they should have the best Indo-European DNA. They came later in Europe, so they are less mixed as us, the others. Isn't this so?



More than 1 million gypsies can be found in Hungary sadly.

I think you're exagerating.

In Romania, too, the many people call Pontids, Gypsies. I don't think it is quite accurate, perhaps someone with better knowledge in this area can help.

aftermundo
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 01:17 PM
Absolutely dont agree, it isnt the sample size what matters.Ofcourse the sample size matters. A study with 113 samples taken is much more reliable than a study with only 45 samples.

Polak
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 01:36 PM
Absolutely dont agree, it isnt the sample size what matters. The people who gave the samples, that is what matters. This 22% is impossible. No idea what research was this, and what people gave the samples, but this cannot be. Maybe 20-30+ samples were tested from gypsies, that is possible even. More than 1 million gypsies can be found in Hungary sadly.


You're just babbling now.

The sample size was small, and it's the only study that found such a high level of R1a in Hungarians.

One study means very little if all other studies show the opposite.

It was an abberation, so I think we should just move on.

If you have any other studies showing more than 30% of R1a in Hungarains please post them.

Polak
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 01:44 PM
By the way, gypsies are not of Indo-European Aryan descent, but of tribal Indian descent.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 01:48 PM
Can you please give the source(s) behind the numbers of "Mongoloid mtDNA in Russia"?

Do you also have the number of ethnic Russians in those regions? I doubt that 6 % in Bashkiria are from ethnic Russians.



Mongoloid mtDNA in Russia regionally:

Archangelsk (country isolate) - 2.6%
Pskov - 1.5%
Pskov (country isolate) - 6.3%
(Great) Novgorod - 3.7%
Jaroslavl - 2.4%
Vladimir - 0%
Kostroma - 1%
Kaluga - 0%
Tula - 0%
Ryazan - 0%
Orel - 0%
Kursk - 3%
Saratov - 3%
Lower Novgorod - 2%
Belgorod - 0%
Krasnodar - 0%
Stavropol - 0%
Rostov - 0%
Bashkiria (country isolate) - 6%
Magadan - 0%

Stephen
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 02:04 PM
You're just babbling now.

The sample size was small, and it's the only study that found such a high level of R1a in Hungarians.

One study means very little if all other studies show the opposite.

It was an abberation, so I think we should just move on.

If you have any other studies showing more than 30% of R1a in Hungarains please post them.Yes that study is surely reliable Polak, and it showed 60% EU19. Every people using that analysis as a proof in these things.
Marius posted the same analysis like you. [113 samples], its nothing new. As I said what matters is that where is that sample from, not the sample number. If this 22% is reliable, I am pretty sure that they tested all kind of people in Hungary. [Gypsies etc.]
22-30% sounds totally impossible in the region anyways.

Polak
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 02:09 PM
Yes that study is surely reliable Polak, and it showed 60% EU19. Every people using that analysis as a proof in these things.
Marius posted the same analysis like you. [113 samples], its nothing new. As I said what matters is that where is that sample from, not the sample number. If this 22% is reliable, I am pretty sure that they tested all kind of people in Hungary. [Gypsies etc.]
22-30% sounds totally impossible in the region anyways.



Actually, I posted TWO studies with sample sizes of 113 - that's a total of 226.

And there are other studies out there that do not back up your theory of 60% R1a in Hungarians.

That's because 60% of Hungarians don't have R1a - only about 20% do.

Get over it.

Stephen
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 02:15 PM
Ok, I won't argue, you already decided this for yourself. :D
Just dont forget there are lot of things what can affect an analysis, I have no idea what did they done in this 113 sample one, and I dont care really, as I said I trust better in the most famous one, what is hosted on the stanford site. :P

aftermundo
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 02:23 PM
Ok, I won't argue, you already decided this for yourself. :D
Just dont forget there are lot of things what can affect an analysis, I have no idea what did they done in this 113 sample one, and I dont care really, as I said I trust better in the most famous one, what is hosted on the stanford site. :P
You stubborn Hungarian wannabe slav ;)

Stephen
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 07:12 PM
Whaaaaaaat? :fcrazy:

Japetos
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 10:46 PM
How important is a limited admixture with Mongols?

Polak
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 05:17 AM
How important is a limited admixture with Mongols?


Pffff....I don't know.

I don't think we're discussing the importance of it, just its extent.

You would get a variety of opions on this site, from moderate to extreme, if you asked whether Mongol admixture had an bearing on an individual or a population.