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Wulfram
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 07:18 PM
[Moderation note: Discussion has been split from this thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=112415&page=6).]




It also happened in the USA, where German POWs were exterminated and German civilians were rounded up and placed in camps for merely being German. There were German witnesses who survived to tell the stories of the atrocities in the USA.


May I ask for sources to these claims? If you are referring to the atrocities committed by Eisenhower on Germans in Germany then I will agree.
I am no historian but from personal experience I know that many German POWs in Texas loved their experience there so much that they decided to stay. I have met quite a few of these old boys and actually mistook many of them for Texans! I never heard a single one of them mention anything about atrocities commited upon them while on US soil.
I am not as well read as most here on Germanics and our history, but I have certainly come a long way. If I am wrong then please correct me.


As I said before, blood/ancestry is not enough. Eisenhower had German ancestry too, but he wasn't a German. The mindset of colonials isn't really German either. Most of the time they have no understanding of German matters, because they don't live and breathe in Germany. Are you still beating this dead horse? I consider myself to be a true German. I admit that much of my adult life was squandered on less than German pursuits. But I have learned my lesson and have now set my path in the right direction.
Todesengel, you are no better or worse a German than myself. By using that crypto-jew Eisenhower as an example to explain why we Americans on Skadi are not German enough is ridiculous. I have still yet to hear a convincing argument from the anti-American contingent here that proves their point.
All I hear is "You weren't born on German soil, so NYAAH!!!".

Please explain why blood/ancestry is not enough.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 08:21 PM
I'm from the GDR, born and lived there until I was a teenager, and this is the first time I ever hear someone talking about "German ethnic minorities in East Germany". There was no such thing, I can assure you.
Sure there are. There are (or were in most cases) a number of regional language and ethnic/cultural variations based on migrations dating back to the Middle Ages. These were oppressed because the Communists were intent on creating a so-called egalitarian society.


We were native and a majority population in the GDR. As for the ones in Eastern Europe/Russia, they were oppressed because of the war. Germany was the war loser, so the winners punished it by punishing its minorities too. It didn't only happen under communist regimes. It also happened in the USA, where German POWs were exterminated and German civilians were rounded up and placed in camps for merely being German. There were German witnesses who survived to tell the stories of the atrocities in the USA.Well, what happened in the States isn't nearly as bad as what happened under the Communists; even though German culture was oppressed and is in decline in North America, it still exists and hasn't been actively persecuted.


So I am not so sure that has to do with communism, because pure communism has no nationalist/anti-foreigner doctrine, it is internationalist. In addition, Stalin ethnically cleansed nearly every sector of Russian life, not just Germans. Many Russians died under communism too. And I should remind you how Russian communism was Philosemitic and open to Jews, so some ethnic minorities were accepted after all.Communism embraced anyone who would subscribe to its ideology, but it had no interest in allowing people in maintaining their separate ethnic identity--this was perceived correctly as a potential threat to the regime's ultimate authority. Yes, the Communists went after just about everyone, the nature of the persecution of ethnic Germans had specific characteristics and motives.



As I said before, blood/ancestry is not enough. Eisenhower had German ancestry too, but he wasn't a German. The mindset of colonials isn't really German either. Most of the time they have no understanding of German matters, because they don't live and breathe in Germany.Ay, here we go again. You claim to come from the GDR, well that means your "Germaness" has gone through two generations of Communist polluting as far as I'm concerned, while mine has a direct connection to East Prussia. In my books that puts me one up on you, but truth be told I'm not here to engage in this kind of petty squabbling, so believe what you will.

Also, this forum is about Germanic culture and language, etc. and there's obviously a reason why I'm here, yet within the course of a day or so I've read posts by certain members suggesting that I'm not German(ic) because I'm Christian and not living in Germany (ie. a "Reichsdeutsche"). :thumbdown


Are you still beating this dead horse? I consider myself to be a true German. I admit that much of my adult life was squandered on less than German pursuits. But I have learned my lesson and have now set my path in the right direction.
Todesengel, you are no better or worse a German than myself. By using that crypto-jew Eisenhower as an example to explain why we Americans on Skadi are not German enough is ridiculous. I have still yet to hear a convincing argument from the anti-American contingent here that proves their point.
All I hear is "You weren't born on German soil, so NYAAH!!!".

Please explain why blood/ancestry is not enough.
That's the thing, though--it's the typical "Reichsdeutsche" snobbery that has been the bane of German culture for generations. If people who make these arguments are really concerned about Germanic culture then location would not be an issue. The current Germany moreover is an artificial political construct, and people who accept it as the basis for defining who is and is not German are acknowledging the legitimacy of something that has not even been determined by the Germans themselves.

Nachtengel
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 08:45 PM
Sure there are. There are (or were in most cases) a number of regional language and ethnic/cultural variations based on migrations dating back to the Middle Ages. These were oppressed because the Communists were intent on creating a so-called egalitarian society.
That is nonsense. The only minorities here were/are the Sorbs. Germans were a majority and native population. The GDR also accepted about 4 million ethnic Germans from the former German areas where they were expulsed from. They would have died if they had remained in Russia or Poland.


Well, what happened in the States isn't nearly as bad as what happened under the Communists;
That's what Americans would like us to believe, but it's far from the truth. Let's see how our "American brothers" treated Germans:


In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.

Even more shocking was to see the prisoners throwing grass and weeds into a tin can containing a thin soup. They told me they did this to help ease their hunger pains. Quickly, they grew emaciated. Dysentery raged, and soon they were sleeping in their own excrement, too weak and crowded to reach the slit trenches. Many were begging for food, sickening and dying before our eyes. We had ample food and supplies, but did nothing to help them, including no medical assistance.

Outraged, I protested to my officers and was met with hostility or bland indifference. When pressed, they explained they were under strict orders from "higher up." No officer would dare do this to 50,000 men if he felt that it was "out of line," leaving him open to charges. Realizing my protests were useless, I asked a friend working in the kitchen if he could slip me some extra food for the prisoners. He too said they were under strict orders to severely ration the prisoners' food and that these orders came from "higher up." But he said they had more food than they knew what to do with and would sneak me some.

When I threw this food over the barbed wire to the prisoners, I was caught and threatened with imprisonment. I repeated the "offense," and one officer angrily threatened to shoot me. I assumed this was a bluff until I encountered a captain on a hill above the Rhine shooting down at a group of German civilian women with his .45 caliber pistol. When I asked, Why?," he mumbled, "Target practice," and fired until his pistol was empty. I saw the women running for cover, but, at that distance, couldn't tell if any had been hit.

This is when I realized I was dealing with cold-blooded killers filled with moralistic hatred. They considered the Germans subhuman and worthy of extermination; another expression of the downward spiral of racism. Articles in the G.I. newspaper, Stars and Stripes, played up the German concentration camps, complete with photos of emaciated bodies; this amplified our self-righteous cruelty and made it easier to imitate behavior we were supposed to oppose. Also, I think, soldiers not exposed to combat were trying to prove how tough they were by taking it out on the prisoners and civilians.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/us_war_crimes/Eisenhowers_death_camps.htm

How dare you call this "not nearly as bad"?


even though German culture was oppressed and is in decline in North America, it still exists and hasn't been actively persecuted.
Last I checked the statistics about "German"-Americans, out of 50 million only about a million speak German. The "German culture" in the USA is a poor and in many cases ignorant imitation of our culture, like the Americans of Hessian heritage who dress up as Bavarians and make sausage fests. A German from Germany would knock his head against the wall at the sight of such ignorance.


Ay, here we go again. You claim to come from the GDR, well that means your "Germaness" has gone through two generations of Communist polluting as far as I'm concerned, while mine has a direct connection to East Prussia.
Which two generations of communism? I was born in the GDR, which fell when I was 14 years old, and then East Germany switched to liberal democracy. That is one generation of communism.
I've said it before but I will repeat: these regimes were not adopted by the German masses, nor did the German masses give their consent. The GDR was an occupation regime, as is the FRG. These regimes were imposed by the Russians and the Americans.


In my books that puts me one up on you, but truth be told I'm not here to engage in this kind of petty squabbling, so believe what you will.
But being German is not judged by your books. The motherland is the one that decides who is acceptable as a descendant of its legacy, not the colonies. The Reichsdeutsche decide who is volksdeutsch, and not viceversa.


Also, this forum is about Germanic culture and language, etc. and there's obviously a reason why I'm here, yet within the course of a day or so I've read posts by certain members suggesting that I'm not German(ic) because I'm Christian and not living in Germany (ie. a "Reichsdeutsche"). :thumbdown
You are Germanic, but you are not German. Speaking German is one of the prequisites to being German (see Goebbels). The fact that you can't even spell "East Prussian" correctly points that you lack basic German language knowledge, and culture without language is extremely difficult to understand let alone practice.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 11:10 PM
That is nonsense. The only minorities here were/are the Sorbs. Germans were a majority and native population. The GDR also accepted about 4 million ethnic Germans from the former German areas where they were expulsed from. They would have died if they had remained in Russia or Poland.
So are ethnic Germans really Germans, then? They also happened to arrive before the DDR was established. Like some of my relatives, who had to leave everything behind to make their escape (again).



That's what Americans would like us to believe, but it's far from the truth. Let's see how our "American brothers" treated Germans:

How dare you call this "not nearly as bad"?Yeah, my dad, and a number of other relatives and acquaintances, all had to go through that, but the only people we're missing were the ones caught by the Soviets. I'm not saying that the Germans who were captured by the Americans had it good, but it certainly was much better that what the Soviets had to offer. So, yes, "not nearly as bad".



Last I checked the statistics about "German"-Americans, out of 50 million only about a million speak German. The "German culture" in the USA is a poor and in many cases ignorant imitation of our culture, like the Americans of Hessian heritage who dress up as Bavarians and make sausage fests. A German from Germany would knock his head against the wall at the sight of such ignorance.Now you're just being silly.



Which two generations of communism? I was born in the GDR, which fell when I was 14 years old, and then East Germany switched to liberal democracy. That is one generation of communism.East Germany existed for about 50 years--that's two generations. You were born into a society that was polluted for two generations by Communism, and you're trying to tell me that you have the right to define whether or not I'm German?


But being German is not judged by your books. The motherland is the one that decides who is acceptable as a descendant of its legacy, not the colonies. The Reichsdeutsche decide who is volksdeutsch, and not viceversa.Again, you're being silly. And don't you mean "Fatherland"?



You are Germanic, but you are not German. Speaking German is one of the prequisites to being German (see Goebbels). The fact that you can't even spell "East Prussian" correctly points that you lack basic German language knowledge, and culture without language is extremely difficult to understand let alone practice.I don't give a hoot what Goebbels said.

So I studied at a German university but I "lack basic German language knowledge"... hmmm...

Germany has a population of about 80 million, with the global population being about 6 billion. So I don't quite understand why you're intent on alienating Germans who live outside of the "motherland". My dad fought in WW2, both of my grandfathers in WW1, and I think that they would be quite dismayed by your obtuse argumentation.



Ethnicity:
an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"

Ethnic minority:
a group that has different national or cultural traditions from the majority of the population

Germans in German are NOT ethnic minorities. Claiming otherwise is being ignorant of not only ethnicity, but of Germany too.

Keep trying. Ethnicity is based on language, religion, culture, and a sense of common identity. This exists within Germany to an extent, among Low German speakers for instance.

Nachtengel
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 11:32 PM
So are ethnic Germans really Germans, then? They also happened to arrive before the DDR was established. Like some of my relatives, who had to leave everything behind to make their escape (again).
Ethnic Germans are Germans as long as they keep the German characteristics alive. Language is of tantamount importance, because the culture depends on it.


Yeah, my dad, and a number of other relatives and acquaintances, all had to go through that, but the only people we're missing were the ones caught by the Soviets. I'm not saying that the Germans who were captured by the Americans had it good, but it certainly was much better that what the Soviets had to offer. So, yes, "not nearly as bad".
Then you didn't read what I posted. How is being used for target practice "better" than anything? The best Germans in the USA died, the ones who remained mostly made compromises, anglicized their names and stopped teaching German language to their children out of fear of being persecuted.


Now you're just being silly.
I'm serious, but not being German you probably lack the understanding of what I meant.


East Germany existed for about 50 years--that's two generations. You were born into a society that was polluted for two generations by Communism, and you're trying to tell me that you have the right to define whether or not I'm German?
Yes, I do, because I am German. I'm not the one who needs acceptance from the German people. I was born here, a native German, I am on my land, in my country.


Again, you're being silly.
Again, I am serious. It's how history worked. Not all people from Russia with German ancestry were accepted as German.


And don't you mean "Fatherland"?
No.


I don't give a hoot what Goebbels said.
He was certainly more familiar with the German character than yourself.


So I studied at a German university but I "lack basic German language knowledge"... hmmm...
Yes. Either you were a poor student, or your professors didn't bother to teach you traditional German language.
There is no such thing as "Ostpreussisch" in proper German, even after the spelling reform. After a long vowel or a diphthong, words which were originally written with "ß" remain unchanged.


Germany has a population of about 80 million, with the global population being about 6 billion. So I don't quite understand why you're intent on alienating Germans who live outside of the "motherland".
I am not against Germans who live outside the motherland per se, but especially against those from the colonies, because they have lost (or perverted) German culture. In other words, I would prefer a German from South Tyrol, Poland or the Sudetenland, to one from the USA or Canada, because the former group kept their Germanicity while the latter did less.


My dad fought in WW2, both of my grandfathers in WW1, and I think that they would be quite dismayed by your obtuse argumentation.
Just because your father and grandfathers were German doesn't make you German too. You aren't your ancestors. You haven't fought in WW1 and WW2, so they're not your actions. You have the mindset of a colonial, not of a German, so obviously something was not properly transmitted down the family line. The incorrect spelling of "Ostpreussisch" is a sign that language is one of those, but maybe I am missing something else.

Bärin
Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 11:49 PM
Communists are Communists.
No, there are national communists and internationalist communists.


And I was talking about German ethnic minorities that were oppressed by the Communists, throughout eastern Europe and East Germany.
Do you need a handkerchief to wipe your tears for the poor oppressed minorities? You're starting to sound like the nonwhite immigrants here who whine all day about "oppression". :oanieyes
My family who comes from the DDR speaks local version of German and so do I, so much for "oppression".


Again, you didn't actually live through the regime, though.
My parents did, and educated me.


Too bad for you I can trace my ancestry back to the early 16th century and its 100% German. The issue here isn't location rather mindset, and the real problem here is your espousing Communism as a means if Germanic preservation when we all know what Communism is really about.
Exactly, it's about mindset, that's why you and other colonials can't qualify as German even if you live and study here and even if your grandfathers were German. Your ignorance about Germany and Germans is quite striking.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:19 AM
LOL

Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to? :~(

Bärin
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:28 AM
LOL

Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to? :~(
Only one East German Communist, me. ;) Todesengel and Ossi aren't communists, and we aren't trying to convince you of anything, we are just stating how the facts are. :)

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:33 AM
LOL

Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to? :~(
I am not a communist. I am nationalsocialist. I oppose communism because of its egalitarian, internationalist and non-German nature, I thought I made that clear.

And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.

Svartljos
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:37 AM
And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.

I don't know, but I think he thinks people are suggesting he is not ethnically German? I'm no scientist, but I think it is impossible for someone with two German parents to not be ethnically German. That's not to say they are culturally German, nor might they have German nationality, is it correct to assume that this is what you and the other Germans were trying to get across? I'm just trying to see if I am following this part right.

Ethnic Yes, National No

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:52 AM
I don't know, but I think he thinks people are suggesting he is not ethnically German? I'm no scientist, but I think it is impossible for someone with two German parents to not be ethnically German. That's not to say they are culturally German, nor might they have German nationality, is it correct to assume that this is what you and the other Germans were trying to get across? I'm just trying to see if I am following this part right.

Ethnic Yes, National No
To German nationalists, ethnicity = nation. Ethnicity doesn't exist without culture. You can't be ethnically German without being culturally German. Ossi posted the definition of ethnicity:

an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"

The definition of ethnic German, in German:


vor 1933 geprägte, in der nationalsozialistischen Zeit amtliche Bezeichnung für Angehörige des deutschen Sprach- und Kulturkreises, die nicht deutsche, österreichische oder schweizerische Staatsbürger waren, besonders in Osteuropa

Germans who belong to the German language and cultural sphere, but are not citizens of Germany, Austria or Switzerland, especially the ones in Eastern Europe. If you don't speak the German language, don't practice German culture and fulfill the other criteria Goebbels was speaking of, you are not a member of the German ethnicity. Then you are American/Canadian of German ancestry, but not part of our nation.

Wulfram
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Todesengel wrote:
Just because your father and grandfathers were German doesn't make you German too.

Once again, I ask for you to please explain why.
Please.
If I have chosen to honor my ancestors by learning their language, by educating myself thoroughly with every little facet of German history, by immersing myself as much as I can in the culture, I would say that I have as much a right to claim Germany as my nation as you do. You have a piece of paper that makes your citizenship official, that is all. Beyond this paper I would say that there are no borders between countries that were established by our ancestors.
You say blood and heritage is not enough. You say that to study and live here is not enough, but you persist in cloaking your explanations with vague words like "mindset" to avoid giving me a straight answer as to why I do not qualify.


You aren't your ancestors. You haven't fought in WW1 and WW2, so they're not your actions.

I could just as easily say

“You did not fight in WWI or WWII yourself, so you are not your ancestors either.”


You have the mindset of a colonial, not of a German...

To me, a German colonialist, if they were like my ancestors, immigrated here to spread Germanics to the world, not to sever themselves from it. Along the way their descendents became corrupted, this is true. But it stands to reason that if one among these descendents have an awakening, namely myself, and who want to help restore glory to Germany, then I feel I can eventually become not only my ancestors equal, but yours as well.
My blood came here for Germany's sake. Your ancestors stayed in Germany to help maintain a strong homefront.
As thier decendents, by your own logic, we have both failed them. What you blame me for I could just as illogically blame you for as well. It makes no sense. You are blaming me for something that you have yet to elaborate on. Please do.


Barin wrote:
Exactly, it's about mindset, that's why you and other colonials can't qualify as German even if you live and study here and even if your grandfathers were German.

Mindset to me is concentrating my mind on learning every thing I can to improve my knowledge of Germanics, its language, its art, its integrity. By coming to know these things I feel that I will eventually become as one with my ancestors. But I have to earn this right first, and I still have much work to do.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 01:09 AM
I am not a communist. I am nationalsocialist. I oppose communism because of its egalitarian, internationalist and non-German nature, I thought I made that clear.

And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.

Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German. The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR. As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 01:17 AM
Todesengel wrote:

Once again, I ask for you to please explain why.
Please.
I have already explained why. What is unclear? If you tell me what you haven't understood, I could elaborate.


If I have chosen to honor my ancestors by learning their language, by educating myself thoroughly with every little facet of German history, by immersing myself as much as I can in the culture, I would say that I have as much a right to claim Germany as my nation as you do.
If you learn the German language and practice the German culture, you could become German, yes.


You say blood and heritage is not enough.
No, I said blood is not enough. Heritage is something else. Most Americans/Colonials use the word heritage wrongly.
Heritage is:

practices that are handed down from the past by tradition; "a heritage of freedom"
As most Americans are unfamiliar with the German language and culture, it wasn't passed down over the latest generations, so they are not "German by heritage". They are "German by ancestry".


You say that to study and live here is not enough,
Correct.


but you persist in cloaking your explanations with vague words like "mindset" to avoid giving me a straight answer as to why I do not qualify.
I will explain more in depth so that you could understand.
Mindset/world view is part of culture. In German culture, there is no such thing as "German American". You are either German, or you are American. You can't wave both flags, and you can't have allegiance to two countries. If you are part of the German ethnicity, you give everything else up. You support Germany, even against America.
If you belong to one of the six German races (Nordid, Faelid, Osteuropid, Alpinid, Dinarid, Mediterranean), you speak the German language, practice the German culture and your allegiance lays with Germany and Germany alone, then you are a German. Most Americans lack one or more of those qualities and are hence alien to Germany.


I could just as easily say

“You did not fight in WWI or WWII yourself, so you are not your ancestors either.”
That's correct. But I did not use WWI and WWII to assert my Germanness as Gardisten did. What your ancestors are becomes pointless if you do not carry on their culture and customs (heritage). Obama had a German ancestor some centuries ago. Yet is he German? No, because he fails the requirements to be.


To me, a German colonialist, if they were like my ancestors, immigrated here to spread Germanics to the world, not to sever themselves from it. Along the way their descendents became corrupted, this is true. But it stands to reason that if one among these descendents have an awakening, namely myself, and who want to help restore glory to Germany, then I feel I can eventually become not only my ancestors equal, but yours as well.
My blood came here for Germany's sake. Your ancestors stayed in Germany to help maintain a strong homefront. But, in the end it seems that as thier decendents, by your own logic, we have both failed them. What you blame me for I could just as illogically blmae you for as well. It makes no sense. You are blaming me for something that you have yet to elaborate on. Please do.
America is not a German colony. Its language is English, it's culture is English, its mindset is I don't know what it is, but certainly not German. I have not failed to preserve German language and culture and to have German children. Most German Americans have failed to do that. They abandoned their heritage. There are few Americans who have retained the German character and who can thus be called German.


Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German.
Communist is not an ethnicity. It is a political ideology. You aren't born with a political ideology, you choose it.


The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR.
In politics no. In ethnicity and race, yes.


As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.
I don't care to fit your definition of German. As I said, I don't need acceptance from colonials and/or Volksdeutsche. German is defined at the source. Which is in Germany, by the German ethnicity/nation.


Do you consider a half-breed black and German child born in Germany more ethnically German than you consider this Canadian of German descent?
No, because a half-breed isn't racially compatible.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 01:39 AM
Germans who belong to the German language and cultural sphere, but are not citizens of Germany, Austria or Switzerland, especially the ones in Eastern Europe. If you don't speak the German language, don't practice German culture and fulfill the other criteria Goebbels was speaking of, you are not a member of the German ethnicity. Then you are American/Canadian of German ancestry, but not part of our nation.

Define "German culture" then... I doubt you even practice much if anything that was considered German culture 50 or 100 years ago. What do you do that's so culturally German aside from drinking lots of beer...?


That's correct. But I did not use WWI and WWII to assert my Germanness as Gardisten did. What your ancestors are becomes pointless if you do not carry on their culture and customs (heritage). Obama had a German ancestor some centuries ago. Yet is he German? No, because he fails the requirements to be.
You're telling me that I'm not "culturally" German because I supposedly don't maintain my culture, yet I state that my father and grandfathers served in WW2 and WW1 respectively, and that this is part of my identity. I've actively tried to maintain my connection with what my forefathers did, yet this "fails the requirement" anyway? Considering the circumstances I've done more than most to maintain a semblance of my Germaness, but apparently I'm damned if I do just as much as if I don't. No wonder most Germans in North America eventually lose their culture...

I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.

Oh, and likening my German heritage to Obama's supposed token German ancestry... :thumbdown :thumbdown

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 01:52 AM
You're telling me that I'm not "culturally" German because I supposedly don't maintain my culture, yet I state that my father and grandfathers served in WW2 and WW1 respectively, and that this is part of my identity. I've actively tried to maintain my connection with what my forefathers did, yet this "fails the requirement" anyway? Considering the circumstances I've done more than most to maintain a semblance of my Germaness, but apparently I'm damned if I do just as much as if I don't. No wonder most Germans in North America eventually lose their culture...
Yet you failed to use properly one of the distinct German cultural elements, the "ß". You descend from Prussians, yet can't spell "Preußen" and "Ostpreußisch" properly.


I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.
Nonsense on both accounts.

1. I am not a Southern German and it would be beyond ridiculous if I had a problem with Prussians. I am from Brandenburg in case you haven't noticed.

2. NS was not a Catholic phenomenon. Hitler used Christianity as a temporary tool, the goal was to create a distinct NS religion. And Prussians were not opposed to NS. In fact NS got the most support in Prussia. You are ignorant of your own history.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1956/reichstagswahlen1932.jpg

Ossi
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:01 AM
I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.
LOL! :nut

You have issues, and it's no joke. NS was popular in Prussia, and Prussianism was popular in the GDR. In fact the GDR followed Prussian code and tradition in its laws and regulations. Catholicism in the GDR was also virtually unknown. Besides atheism and irreligion, the dominant Christian religion was Protestantism, which had some history and legacy there. You won't find any "communist" born in the GDR who has a problem with Prussians because they're not Catholic.

Where did you study German history? The History Channel? :D

Winkelried
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:18 AM
Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German. The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR. As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.
So everyone born on one side of the wall isn't a real German, but the ones born on the other side of the wall are? What makes them more German than the communists? We shouldn't overlook that the West was Americanized just as the East was Russified. When should a German have been born to be a real German? Were the Third Reich born Germans real Germans? Were they all National Socialist, including the ones who opposed the ideology? What about the Communists who were born before the GDR existed? Were they not Communists, but National Socialists, or Weimar Republicans, according to the regime they were born under?

I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.

Bärin
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:28 AM
I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.
There is no logic to understand. By his definition, Erich Honecker was not a communist. :oanieyes Not only he wasn't born in the GDR, but he was also born in West Germany. ;)
And I'm not a communist either, because when I was born, the GDR wasn't communist anymore. In 1990 it was led by Egon Krenz and it was "democratic".

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:34 AM
Yet you failed to use properly one of the distinct German cultural elements, the "ß". You descend from Prussians, yet can't spell "Preußen" and "Ostpreußisch" properly.
:thumbdown Is that the best you people can do. I'm too lazy to cut-and-paste an "ß" and use the accepted substitute of "ss" and you make it out to be an indication of my "lock of culture"?



1. I am not a Southern German and it would be beyond ridiculous if I had a problem with Prussians. I am from Brandenburg in case you haven't noticed.Are you? Up a little late, aren't you? Whatever the case, so what--you were born in the GDR.


2. NS was not a Catholic phenomenon. Hitler used Christianity as a temporary tool, the goal was to create a distinct NS religion. And Prussians were not opposed to NS. In fact NS got the most support in Prussia. You are ignorant of your own history.The Nazis eventually got support in Prussia because his association with the conservatives and the issue of restoring lost territories. But the Nazi movement originated in Catholic southern German and Austria. Go find the election results for earlier elections.


So everyone born on one side of the wall isn't a real German, but the ones born on the other side of the wall are? What makes them more German than the communists? We shouldn't overlook that the West was Americanized just as the East was Russified. When should a German have been born to be a real German? Were the Third Reich born Germans real Germans? Were they all National Socialist, including the ones who opposed the ideology? What about the Communists who were born before the GDR existed? Were they not Communists, but National Socialists, or Weimar Republicans, according to the regime they were born under?

I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.
No, you've entered the discussion a little late. I'm using their logic, not mine.

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:41 AM
:thumbdown Is that the best you people can do. I'm too lazy to cut-and-paste an "ß" and use the accepted substitute of "ss" and you make it out to be an indication of my "lock of culture"?
You persist in your ignorance. "ss" can't be used instead of "ß" in all cases. You can say "Schloss", "bisschen", "muss", but not "Ostpreussisch", it's simply incorrect!


Are you? Up a little late, aren't you? Whatever the case, so what--you were born in the GDR.
Prussians existed in the GDR.


The Nazis eventually got support in Prussia because his association with the conservatives and the issue of restoring lost territories. But the Nazi movement originated in Catholic southern German and Austria. Go find the election results for earlier elections.
Where it originated is besides the point, you said Prussians had an issue with NS. Even in the 1920s, it's not true. After the NSDAP expanded beyond the South, the strongest areas of support were the Prussian/Protestant ones, East Prussa included.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 02:47 AM
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Thusnelda
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 03:06 PM
Gardisten, at first you´ve presented only a...different...point of view on the issue, but now you begin to troll and to ridicule rational arguments. :thumbdown It´s just laughable to deny people like Todesengel the status of being "real Germans" only because they were born in the GDR. Every German has to shake the head when reading comments like that. Are you even able to speak the German language? :| I´ve the increasing personal view that you´re a "Prussian" imposter only.

We won´t allow further trolling and ridiculing comments, like claiming that full-blood Germans like Todesengel or Bärin aren´t "Germans". It´s anti-German and, thus, anti-Germanic and against our rules.

Jäger
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 05:27 PM
I'm too lazy to cut-and-paste an "ß" and use the accepted substitute of "ss" and you make it out to be an indication of my "lock of culture"?
The correct substitute is "sz", not "ss". I.e. Preuszen is correct.
And writing wrong German, because of laziness is indeed highly anti-German, now you know better, it should be expected to use the correct form.
High German is the last non-degenerated Germanic language, we as Germanic preservationists must keep it that way.


You can say "Schloss", "bisschen", "muss"...
You can do that if you want to use anti-German orthography.


But the Nazi movement originated in Catholic southern German and Austria.
Alfred Rosenberg, a key figure in NS ideology, was from a German family in Tallinn. Not to mention Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (East-Prussia), Erich Ludendorff (Prussia, whom later indeed had disputes with Hitler because of his pragmatic approach towards the Catholic Church) etc.pp.
To confine NS to a mere southern German movement is false on all accounts.


Go find the election results for earlier elections.
There were only two elections before the July 1932 election, and only one (September 1930) had a notable outcome for the NSDAP.
I couldn't find a statistic regarding the areas of success, if you have one, please share.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Gardisten, at first you´ve presented only a...different...point of view on the issue, but now you begin to troll and to ridicule rational arguments. :thumbdown It´s just laughable to deny people like Todesengel the status of being "real Germans" only because they were born in the GDR. Every German has to shake the head when reading comments like that. Are you even able to speak the German language? :| I´ve the increasing personal view that you´re a "Prussian" imposter only.

We won´t allow further trolling and ridiculing comments, like claiming that full-blood Germans like Todesengel or Bärin aren´t "Germans". It´s anti-German and, thus, anti-Germanic and against our rules.

a) No, I'm not a "Prussian imposter"--both of my parents were born in Prussia. But to be quite frank I don't see why I have to justify my heritage.

b) The GDR was part of the Soviet Union when she was born, and had been for about 35 years before that. She claims that being born German in a foreign country doesn't make one German, and in my opinion Communist GDR was a foreign country.

c) I'm making claims that "full-blooded Germans... aren't Germans"--that the accusation that was made against me. I'm not being anti-German, rather have issues with specific member's narrow-minded attitude.


The correct substitute is "sz", not "ss". I.e. Preuszen is correct.
And writing wrong German, because of laziness is indeed highly anti-German, now you know better, it should be expected to use the correct form.
You're kidding, right? Anti-German? My mom taught me to use "sz" as a substitute, but was told by my German-born professor that it was antiquated. I've been using "ss" for years in place of a eszet and it's never been an issue.

Nachtengel
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 06:45 PM
She claims that being born German in a foreign country doesn't make one German, and in my opinion Communist GDR was a foreign country.
I didn't say that, I said I recognize ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche), who are born and living outside Germany, as long as they keep their German heritage. I said it's a matter of mindset. And of course if you don't live in Germany you can't be properly familiar with its current problems, but that is an entirely different matter.


You're kidding, right? Anti-German? My mom taught me to use "sz" as a substitute, but was told by my German-born professor that it was antiquated. I've been using "ss" for years in place of a eszet and it's never been an issue.
But you can't always use "ss" instead of "ß". According to the spelling reform, you can use it in "Schloss", but still not in "Preußen". The spelling reform is anti-German anyway as Jäger said, but here, familiarize yourself:
http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/abinitio/alphabet/umlautsz.html

Jäger
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 06:55 PM
You're kidding, right? Anti-German? My mom taught me to use "sz" as a substitute, but was told by my German-born professor that it was antiquated. I've been using "ss" for years in place of a eszet and it's never been an issue.
"sz" is the correct substitute for "ß", a few years ago (1996) a (anti-German) spelling reform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996) was introduced, which replaced the use of "ß" in favor for "ss" in some words. Yet, where ever the "ß" is still to be found (despite the reform), "sz" is still the correct replacement.

I would advice to ditch the reform altogether, the best thing would be to use schoolbooks from before 1996, when learning the German language.

Gardisten
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 06:59 PM
I didn't say that, I said I recognize ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche), who are born and living outside Germany, as long as they keep their German heritage. I said it's a matter of mindset. And of course if you don't live in Germany you can't be properly familiar with its current problems, but that is an entirely different matter.
Well, do you really know what it's like in Canada? We were always spoken to in German, and we have always maintained contact with Germans from our German church. But we had to go to school, and function in an English-speaking society. As a kid there was much pressure to conform, and we didn't really understand what that meant at the time. But like I've said, I tried to hold on to it as best as I could given the situation, but apparently that's just not good enough for the "Reichsdeutsche". Although it doesn't come as a surprise, as I did get the same attitude when I was in Germany. Yeah, it's too bad every German can't live in the Fatherland, but but if you really want the German race and culture to be preserved, then you'll have to accept that fact.

Jäger
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 07:04 PM
I think this discussion should continue here: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=51797

Regarding this topic, much has been said already.

Ward
Friday, July 10th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Bear with me for a moment here:


It's around midnight in the dead of winter, and it's freezing cold outside with heavy snowfall. You are trying to walk home under these severe conditions and you come to an intersection. There are no cars on the street and the sidewalks are totally deserted. Now I ask the question, do you stand huddled up and shivering on the street corner and wait for the "walk" sign to flash, or do you not bother waiting and just cross the street because it's totally safe to do it regardless of the signal on the "walk" sign?

I'd say almost all Americans would just bolt across the street and not think twice about it. However, many Germans will stand there in the snow and freezing temperatures and wait for the walk signal.

This is not a hard and fast rule of course, it's just more of a generalization in some of the differences between our cultural mindsets that are not readily noticeable on the surface.

The average German cities look a lot like American ones, we listen to basically the same music, see the same TV shows and movies, and are assaulted by the similar propaganda. But nevertheless, there are still some differences outside of our languages (or sausages or beer), which lie in our cultural attitudes, practices, and characters. The differences in our senses of humor is one example. There are some things that Germans will think are hilarious that Americans won't find funny, and vice-versa. Germans are also far more formal in many social situations than Americans.

The cultural character and attitude of the area you spend your formative years in will stay with you and shape your thinking for the rest of your life. Hence someone raised in America can never really in a true sense become a German, or vice-versa.

That's not to say that an American of German blood can't assimilate for the most part into German society, it's just that it will take some effort on his part and he'll probably never be able to rid himself entirely of the American worldview in which he was raised. If he was married to a German woman and his kids were raised in German society, however, I think his children would end up to be basically normal Germans. So on a small scale I don't think there's much harm in colonials returning to their homelands.


Hopefully I'm making sense. A unique aspect of American culture is that it can easily relatively large numbers of other white cultures, whereas the same can't be said for Swedish, German, Dutch, etc. If a bunch of Americans or Canadians started migrating en mass to these nations, they would further dilute the traditional culture of them even if they shared the same blood. And I can understand why Europeans want to preserve what is left of their distinct and ancient cultures.

I'm proud of who I am and my heritage, and I certainly don't think that Europeans are any better than colonials. I think a small number of Europeans are a bit arrogant towards colonials for our often mixed ancestry (even if our mixture is often entirely of northern European stock). By the same token, however, I think it is a bit arrogant of us to assume they should just welcome us to move into their countries with candy and flowers. They have a right to be selective in allowing us to move into their nations, or to prohibit us from coming in altogether. We lost our birthrights to those lands when we left. It's up to them to decide what's best for their nations, just like it is with us.

Bärin
Saturday, July 11th, 2009, 10:41 PM
The view on language is another cultural difference. "German-Americans", "German-Canadians" and the like consider it's enough to be considered volksdeutsch without speaking the German language. I've seen many colonials who claimed to be part of the German nation but never bothered to learn German. Out of laziness, or because they didn't consider it necessary since everyone speaks English anyway. :oanieyes The fact is, you can't be a member of the German nation without speaking our language.

Gardisten
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 12:16 AM
The view on language is another cultural difference. "German-Americans", "German-Canadians" and the like consider it's enough to be considered volksdeutsch without speaking the German language. I've seen many colonials who claimed to be part of the German nation but never bothered to learn German. Out of laziness, or because they didn't consider it necessary since everyone speaks English anyway. :oanieyes The fact is, you can't be a member of the German nation without speaking our language.
There's really much more to it, but I don't see the point in beating a dead horse. People of German ancestry number in the hundreds of millions world wide and in Germany there are only about 80 million people, not all of whom are of German ancestry. To become so arrogant as to deny Germans outside of German inclusion simply because of where they reside or not being 100% fluent really doesn't help Germany in the long run. It certainly didn't prior to 1914. Many Germans had to leave the country because of population pressures--this is still a problem today--and they did form German communities and German associations. This meant that there was a large base of potentially pro-German supporters to influence domestic politics. But Germans seem to have a penchant for exclusivity, and as is now the case, Reichsdeutsche simply can't accept Volksdeutsche as being real Germans. Even when those Germans maintained their language and tradition for centuries in virtual isolation. Only briefly did this change when Hitler came around, but this was really only for pragmatic purposes.

So Germany is now a country that's starting to disintegrate internally from the influx of non-German immigrant; are Germans really in a position to be hostile to their own people abroad?

Personally, though, I still find it ironic that a teen-age Communist thinks that her concept of Germaness is somehow legitimate. After what the Communists did to my Prussian homeland, and to members of my family, I will never tolerate Communism.

Bärin
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 12:27 AM
There's really much more to it, but I don't see the point in beating a dead horse. People of German ancestry number in the hundreds of millions world wide and in Germany there are only about 80 million people, not all of whom are of German ancestry. To become so arrogant as to deny Germans outside of German inclusion simply because of where they reside or not being 100% fluent really doesn't help Germany in the long run. It certainly didn't prior to 1914. Many Germans had to leave the country because of population pressures--this is still a problem today--and they did form German communities and German associations. This meant that there was a large base of potentially pro-German supporters to influence domestic politics. But Germans seem to have a penchant for exclusivity, and as is now the case, Reichsdeutsche simply can't accept Volksdeutsche as being real Germans. Even when those Germans maintained their language and tradition for centuries in virtual isolation. Only briefly did this change when Hitler came around, but this was really only for pragmatic purposes.
We accept Volksdeutsche, and they were accepted centuries ago by the German Empire too. What we don't accept is false ones. To be volksdeutsch you have to speak the German language and belong to the German identity and culture. You are either American/Canadian, or German. You can't serve two masters. Some colonials who want to be volksdeutsch want the language requirement ditched because it means one less worry for them, they can be lazy and not learn German yet still be accepted as part of the "club".


So Germany is now a country that's starting to disintegrate internally from the influx of non-German immigrant; are Germans really in a position to be hostile to their own people abroad?
I'm not hostile to Americans and Canadians at all. I am hostile to people who are too lazy to learn the very basics of their culture, like language, yet still expect to be regarded as parts of our nation, no matter where they come from.


Personally, though, I still find it ironic that a teen-age Communist thinks that her concept of Germaness is somehow legitimate.
It's not my concept of Germanness, it's the concept of Germanness that has been used for centuries in nationalist Germany.


After what the Communists did to my Prussian homeland, and to members of my family, I will never tolerate Communism.
That's ok, as i said I can live with that. :)
A nationalist Germany doesn't particularly need the tolerance or approval of Canadians. Tolerance is an alien value to us.

Gardisten
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 12:40 AM
That's not to say that an American of German blood can't assimilate for the most part into German society, it's just that it will take some effort on his part and he'll probably never be able to rid himself entirely of the American worldview in which he was raised. If he was married to a German woman and his kids were raised in German society, however, I think his children would end up to be basically normal Germans. So on a small scale I don't think there's much harm in colonials returning to their homelands.

Well, many of the "Germans" on this forum subscribe to ideological worldviews that are really un-German. If my grandfathers were alive to read what the likes of Barin or some of the pagan/heathen "Germans" on here have to say about German identity, they'd no doubt be outraged. These were men who actually fought for the Kaiser and had no sympathy for the existence of Socialism and Communism in the country. Moreover, these "Germans" live in a society that is so heavily westernized and subject to non-German influences, I dare say that their notion of "German culture" really adheres to what previous generations considered "German culture". I've asked for a definition of "German culture" but haven't really received one. What more than "speaking German" is there to it?


We accept Volksdeutsche, and they were accepted centuries ago by the German Empire too. What we don't accept is false ones. To be volksdeutsch you have to speak the German language and belong to the German identity and culture. You are either American/Canadian, or German. You can't serve two masters.
You mean like the Communist Party? The Volksdeutsche were never considered as equals. Especially when they started showing up in Germany in 1945.



I'm not hostile to Americans and Canadians at all. I am hostile to people who are too lazy to learn the very basics of their culture, like language, yet still expect to be regarded as parts of our nation, no matter where they come from.So now it's "the very basics" is it? What exactly are the "very basics"? Now I'm thinking back to all of the books that I've read--in German as well as English--on German history, politics, and culture; the time that I've spent in Germany studying, and associating with our German friends, whether this constitutes "the basics"? No doubt you'll just keep changing the criteria.

Jäger
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 08:13 PM
The Volksdeutsche were never considered as equals. Especially when they started showing up in Germany in 1945.
That is to be expected, you would observe similar feelings towards e.g. Bavarians if Bavaria were to be dissolved, and all Bavarians would immigrate into the remaining German lands.
Even I can expect to be eyed suspiciously if I simply go to a neighboring village, and the people there don't know me, and I am not with someone they know.


So now it's "the very basics" is it? What exactly are the "very basics"?
She already gave an example, language.
Communication is indeed fundamental to any community.

I am not sure what you are arguing about though, do you think someone can be German, part of a German high culture, while not being able to communicate with Germans properly on a high level?

SpearBrave
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 09:39 PM
I am American with German/Swiss blood, I call myself American. The term German-American or German/Swiss-American sounds silly to me. I do not speak German other than a few words that were spoken when I was a child. Yet alot of the foods we eat and our values are Germanic. That being said Germanic people and values are being assulted and we should work together to fight back.
I'm sure that the people who want to destroy our ways of life are smiling at this thread.
Education is our strongest weapon in this fight, if it means all Germanic people around the world should learn to speak German than lets start learning. By teaching and learning we might pull ahead in this struggle.
As Americans we have learned to adapt to almost anything. They(who ever is try is destroy us) use that against us. We need to learn to use this as tool to stop " Them".
I would like to see all Germanic people working to preserve all of our cultures, but maybe I'm dreaming.

Gardisten
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 02:28 AM
She already gave an example, language.
Communication is indeed fundamental to any community.

I am not sure what you are arguing about though, do you think someone can be German, part of a German high culture, while not being able to communicate with Germans properly on a high level?

Well, I think she simply means "speaking" rather than "communicating". Communicating can occur with more than one language being used at a times, and the inability to speak doesn't mean that a person cannot understand and appreciate "German high culture". Besides, most people do not use speaking for engaging in "high culture". It's easy for someone like her to hide anonymously behind a computer and make grand statements about "culture" but my guess is that her involvement and understanding of German culture is perhaps not so grand.

Jäger
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 07:10 AM
Well, I think she simply means "speaking" rather than "communicating". Communicating can occur with more than one language being used at a times, and the inability to speak doesn't mean that a person cannot understand and appreciate "German high culture".
A high level communication cannot be achieved through simply "more languages", or with broken speech and writing, and without such a communication, being part of a high culture is not possible either. That is not "appreciating" a high culture, or do I get the meaning of the word the wrong way?


Besides, most people do not use speaking for engaging in "high culture".
They use language, which includes the written form, and in thus, language is an integral part of high culture.

Bärin
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 07:19 AM
You mean like the Communist Party? The Volksdeutsche were never considered as equals. Especially when they started showing up in Germany in 1945.
Bullshit. The SED welcomed many Germans in the GDR coming as refugees from East Prussia and other occupied territories.


So now it's "the very basics" is it? What exactly are the "very basics"? Now I'm thinking back to all of the books that I've read--in German as well as English--on German history, politics, and culture; the time that I've spent in Germany studying, and associating with our German friends, whether this constitutes "the basics"? No doubt you'll just keep changing the criteria.
Language is the very basics of a culture. It shapes world view. You can't understand German culture if you have poor German knowledge. To understand the characteristics of our people's minds, you have to read them in German. Reading Goethe's poems or Kant's philosophy in English is just not the same. You have to read them as a German.


Well, I think she simply means "speaking" rather than "communicating". Communicating can occur with more than one language being used at a times, and the inability to speak doesn't mean that a person cannot understand and appreciate "German high culture". Besides, most people do not use speaking for engaging in "high culture". It's easy for someone like her to hide anonymously behind a computer and make grand statements about "culture" but my guess is that her involvement and understanding of German culture is perhaps not so grand.
You can appreciate German high culture without being able to speak German, but only as a foreigner. A German has to speak his native language. Not all Germans speak English and resorting to communication through sign language is an inferior (and at times even insulting) way of dealing with us. If you want to be German you have to speak German, there is no way around it. There is no excuse. Americans complain all the time about Hispanics who don't speak a word English and they would never embrace them as their own. Why should we lower the standards and accept alien languages as part of Germandom? When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or keep out.

Ward
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 07:59 AM
Well, many of the "Germans" on this forum subscribe to ideological worldviews that are really un-German. If my grandfathers were alive to read what the likes of Barin or some of the pagan/heathen "Germans" on here have to say about German identity, they'd no doubt be outraged. These were men who actually fought for the Kaiser and had no sympathy for the existence of Socialism and Communism in the country. Moreover, these "Germans" live in a society that is so heavily westernized and subject to non-German influences, I dare say that their notion of "German culture" really adheres to what previous generations considered "German culture". I've asked for a definition of "German culture" but haven't really received one. What more than "speaking German" is there to it?

A lot of what Jaeger says sounds crazy to me, but I'd say he's being very generous here if he's saying that the only requirement for being considered "German" or volksdeutsch apart from blood is fluency in the German language.

Canadians/Americans/Germans all lead relatively similar lives materialistically speaking. But there's still slight differences in our cultural temperaments and behavior. These differences between us are steadily dwindling, but subtle ones still exist, especially with respect to our cultural temperaments and attitudes.

I'm not saying one can't integrate into the other, I just think the process for one to become successfully integrated goes bit beyond language alone.

Jäger
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 11:41 AM
A lot of what Jaeger says sounds crazy to me, but I'd say he's being very generous here if he's saying that the only requirement for being considered "German" or volksdeutsch apart from blood is fluency in the German language.
These are not my only requirements, see http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=957905&postcount=170 .


I've asked for a definition of "German culture" but haven't really received one.
German culture is written down in works like the Nibelungenlied, Goethe's Faust and many others, it is expressed through witnesses of stone, seen in the Residenz of Würzburg or the Wartburg or in the sculptures of our Kings, and many more, it is carved in our woods through the mere smell of our soil, and the way we used our timber, and it is heard through the songs we sing.
Above all, it is creativity.
We sing, write, speak, read, and listen in German, the joy we feel thereby cannot be transported through a translated text, because it is through the eyes of foreigners, and the way we think, what we can think, is determined by how we speak, because we think in our language.

To deny language its paramount importance seems ridiculous.

Ward
Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 11:13 PM
These are not my only requirements, see http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=957905&postcount=170

Or you could just simply say that a German is someone with German blood or of compatible blood who was raised in a German community.



To deny language its paramount importance seems ridiculous.

Agreed. I don't see how it's even debatable.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 01:30 AM
Bullshit. The SED welcomed many Germans in the GDR coming as refugees from East Prussia and other occupied territories.
And like I said, many of them--some of my relatives included--had to later escape. Admit it, the DDR was a disaster for the German people and nation, and the repercussions will last generations. So, again, spoken like a true Communist, who happens to be living in Germany. Communism is un-German.



Language is the very basics of a culture. It shapes world view. You can't understand German culture if you have poor German knowledge. To understand the characteristics of our people's minds, you have to read them in German. Reading Goethe's poems or Kant's philosophy in English is just not the same. You have to read them as a German.So now it's reading, that's good. So I am a German after all. Thank you very much. Case closed.

I'm wondering though are you not technically polluting your Germanness by understanding and communicating in English?



You can appreciate German high culture without being able to speak German, but only as a foreigner. A German has to speak his native language. Not all Germans speak English and resorting to communication through sign language is an inferior (and at times even insulting) way of dealing with us. If you want to be German you have to speak German, there is no way around it. There is no excuse. Americans complain all the time about Hispanics who don't speak a word English and they would never embrace them as their own. Why should we lower the standards and accept alien languages as part of Germandom? When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or keep out.Accepting "alien languages as part of Germandon"? Oh, I suggest you start reading up on the history of the German language--you're speaking a language that has been heavily influenced by "alien languages".


These are not my only requirements, see http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=957905&postcount=170 .


German culture is written down in works like the Nibelungenlied, Goethe's Faust and many others, it is expressed through witnesses of stone, seen in the Residenz of Würzburg or the Wartburg or in the sculptures of our Kings, and many more, it is carved in our woods through the mere smell of our soil, and the way we used our timber, and it is heard through the songs we sing.
Above all, it is creativity.
We sing, write, speak, read, and listen in German, the joy we feel thereby cannot be transported through a translated text, because it is through the eyes of foreigners, and the way we think, what we can think, is determined by how we speak, because we think in our language.

To deny language its paramount importance seems ridiculous.
So German culture is defined by architectural works that reflected French and Italian styles, literature written by authors with conflicting or ambiguous views on Germans and Germany and who subscribed to international artistic movements?

Personally, I think really German culture is epitomized by more provincial and conservative literature, rural building techniques, regional dialects and customs. But apparently I'm not German so I guess my opinion is irrelevant although probably quite valid.

Bärin
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 01:35 AM
And like I said, many of them--some of my relatives included--had to later escape. Admit it, the DDR was a disaster for the German people and nation, and the repercussions will last generations. So, again, spoken like a true Communist, who happens to be living in Germany. Communism is un-German.
The BRD is the real disaster for the German nation, because it polluted previously homogeneous areas with "guest" (LOL!) workers and multicultural policies which never existed in the DDR. Most Germans who fled did it because they wanted more wealth and money, not because of ethno-nationalist reasons. Fleeing to the BRD, or especially the USA, or Canada which were immigrant-friendly societies contradicts that.


So now it's reading, that's good. So I am a German after all. Thank you very much. Case closed.
Reading is part of being knowledgeable in the German language too. I'm curious how you could read Kant without an advanced knowledge in the German language (so obviously the ability to speak it too). Kant isn't simple fairy tales for children. With Babelfish translation? :oanieyes


I'm wondering though are you not technically polluting your Germanness by understanding and communicating in English?
I only use English to communicate with foreigners. I don't need it to communicate with my countrymen. :)


Accepting "alien languages as part of Germandon"? Oh, I suggest you start reading up on the history of the German language--you're speaking a language that has been heavily influenced by "alien languages".
That's a different thing. And some of these influences aren't a good thing. Nationalist Germans are for example making an effort to rid the modern German language of anglicisms and germanize new words.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 01:56 AM
The BRD is the real disaster for the German nation, because it polluted previously homogeneous areas with "guest" (LOL!) workers and multicultural policies which never existed in the DDR. Most Germans who fled did it because they wanted more wealth and money, not because of ethno-nationalist reasons. Fleeing to the BRD, or especially the USA, or Canada which were immigrant-friendly societies contradicts that.
Oh, yeah, right, the DDR was an oppressive Communist regime. My relatives wanted basic freedoms, and left everything that they had behind when they escaped. And they ended up working in factories for a modest income.



Reading is part of being knowledgeable in the German language too. I'm curious how you could read Kant without an advanced knowledge in the German language (so obviously the ability to speak it too). Kant isn't simple fairy tales for children. With Babelfish translation? :oanieyes
I don't read Kant in German, or English. Actually, Grimm's fairy tales are probably more German than Kant. As are all of the books about East Prussia that I've read.




That's a different thing. And some of these influences aren't a good thing. Nationalist Germans are for example making an effort to rid the modern German language of anglicisms and germanize new words.
Not a good thing, but it's still part of the language that you speak, so it has a profound influence on the way you think. So you're very concept and promotion of "German culture" may in fact be all that German after all.

If you want a more pure German language you'll have to start learning Low German or perhaps Middle Low German.

Jäger
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Or you could just simply say that a German is someone with German blood or of compatible blood who was raised in a German community.
In essence, but there might be exceptions I just can't think of right now, and thus it is better to have a specific definition :). It also demands to define "community", maybe true German parents are enough, or maybe not, etc.


So German culture is defined by architectural works that reflected French and Italian styles, literature written by authors with conflicting or ambiguous views on Germans and Germany and who subscribed to international artistic movements?
Not solely, these were examples, but they surely are part of our culture, as are other buildings, we cannot deny that their birth came out of true German minds, and shaped our view on all things earthly for years to come (even if sometimes conflicting).
E.g. the Faustian spirit is one of the ultimate expressions of German thought.


Personally, I think really German culture is epitomized by more provincial and conservative literature, rural building techniques, regional dialects and customs.
While these factors do play a(n important) role in our culture, it is not possible to single out a few things from within a continuity of German development and let it solely define our culture.

In essence keeping it more abstract is the best strategy to describe German culture, so: German culture is about creativity, it doesn't matter whether inspiration has been drawn from foreign sources or not, this cannot be controlled anyway.

Nachtengel
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 02:31 PM
German culture is an emanation of the German race. A group which creates its own culture and achievements can be deemed superior. A group which doesn't lacks this quality. Importing many "German"-Colonials as parts of our nation would be disadvantageous to Germany, as they have neither managed to create their own culture in the Colonies (exceptions maybe the Amish and the like), nor maintain their old, root culture. They integrated and became anglicized. Groups like the Donauschwaben, Landler, Sudeten Germans have instead created their own local culture and customs. True German enclaves like the ones in Europe rarely exist in the New World. The WASPs instead were creators. American English could be called an achievement and the American culture is an independent invention of this group.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 11:32 PM
German culture is an emanation of the German race. A group which creates its own culture and achievements can be deemed superior. A group which doesn't lacks this quality. Importing many "German"-Colonials as parts of our nation would be disadvantageous to Germany, as they have neither managed to create their own culture in the Colonies (exceptions maybe the Amish and the like), nor maintain their old, root culture. They integrated and became anglicized. Groups like the Donauschwaben, Landler, Sudeten Germans have instead created their own local culture and customs. True German enclaves like the ones in Europe rarely exist in the New World. The WASPs instead were creators. American English could be called an achievement and the American culture is an independent invention of this group.
You mean German Nation, not German race, right? Race is based on a biological connection with one's ancestors who have specific biological characteristics. All of the criteria that have been present for being "German" have been learned traits: reading, speaking, understanding the German language.

I think you have an idealized concept of the Amish and their maintaining their culture. There culture, aside from speaking a German dialect, has largely been influenced by their North American environment. Also, the Amish were persecuted in Europe which is why they left, so I'm not sure they really care to be included as part of German culture.

The Germans in North America did quite well to maintain their own culture, but you have to keep in mind that they often didn't migrate in large groups settling in specific parts of the country. They went to certain areas of the continent where there were many Germans, but these Germans were from all parts of central Europe so I don't think that there ever was enough cohesiveness to allow for the culture to be sustained. Moreover, it was only two or three generations before the First World War began, and then with the Second World War, well, good luck being distinctly German in public...

Ward
Saturday, July 18th, 2009, 11:12 PM
German culture is an emanation of the German race. A group which creates its own culture and achievements can be deemed superior. A group which doesn't lacks this quality. Importing many "German"-Colonials as parts of our nation would be disadvantageous to Germany, as they have neither managed to create their own culture in the Colonies (exceptions maybe the Amish and the like), nor maintain their old, root culture. They integrated and became anglicized.


The Germans who immigrated to America recognized that they would need to integrate into American society, and that their children would grow up as Americans. Back when most Germans came over, American society was rather decent and attractive to many people.

The fact that you denigrate my ancestors for not creating their own culture in the colonies nor maintaining their native culture shows you have no idea what you're talking about. German immigrants brought with them much industriousness and creativity, making great contributions to Anglo-American culture and the "American experience."

Our immigrants were plucked from amongst the best and brightest people in Europe, which is why America became (for better or worse) the most powerful, dynamic and creative society in modern times. Even Hitler acknowledged this about the American people.

The Germans who left for Africa or South America may have stayed closer to their roots, but that's only because they were surrounded by third-world savages. The American situation was quite different.

Gardisten
Sunday, July 19th, 2009, 03:41 AM
Here's a little something that the LoC has put together about German-Americans; there is a link for German language newspapers, which I counted to be 110.

http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/imde/germany.html


Here's a short book that may be of interest; click on "Read Online".

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL7079269M/Deutschtum-in-den-Vereinigten-Staaten-von-Nord-Amerika.

Jäger
Sunday, July 19th, 2009, 11:17 AM
The Germans who left for Africa or South America may have stayed closer to their roots, but that's only because they were surrounded by third-world savages. The American situation was quite different.
It doesn't matter why Germans lost their identity and assimilated into another group, the fact remains they did, and are thus not Germans anymore. That doesn't mean they are bad people now, I even meet some very great Americans from time to time (mostly with German ancestry though ;) :D).
MockTurtle was a great contributor on this forum, and certainly above most of my contemporary German brothers in regards to philosophy and spirit.
And the great SuuT, that were good times :~(

Ossi
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 10:22 AM
[Moderation note: Discussion has been split from here (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=51271&page=6).]



Enough already of the North German/Prussian/Protestant culture against the South German/Austrian/Catholic culture. :thumbdown

Lets all work together for a Whiter, brighter, GERMAN future. :thumbup

Regional German in-fighting is counter productive and achieves nothing but wasted energy. :|

I'm decended from North German/Saxon/Protestant lineage, but accept ANY German from Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Volksdeutscher from America, Canada, Australia or wherever as long as they are proud and righteous Germans ! :thumbup
You are an American, not a German. Who Americans accept is irrelevant to German nationalists. Americans, Canadians and Australians aren't Volksdeutsche. The term is used exclusively for Germans from Eastern and South-Eastern Europe, who speak the language and live as Germans.

Germans don't want to work together with you, haven't you got the message?

fMFXXGOZYg0

Peoples Observer
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 07:05 PM
You are an American, not a German. Who Americans accept is irrelevant to German nationalists. Americans, Canadians and Australians aren't Volksdeutsche. The term is used exclusively for Germans from Eastern and South-Eastern Europe, who speak the language and live as Germans.

Germans don't want to work together with you, haven't you got the message?

And who wants to work with a guy who uses an avatar of a Communist East German trooper ? :thumbdown

Who needs Red East Germans anyways ?

I've used Wa**en S* and Wehrma**t soldiers in my avatars. :thumbup

I'm more German than you are. I stem from PURE Saxon blood from Bremen. I speak German fluently and think with a German mind in all matters. My grandfather was in one of the two above mentioned units in WW2.

You may have Slavic blood from the Russians in your lineage ?

So what if I'm born in a "colony". I'm of pure un-mixed Saxon blood.

At least I know my lineage.

Sigurd
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 07:20 PM
Being a man myself, I know that sometimes you desperately feel like exhibiting that you've got balls, but I think debating who is more German than the other is taking it to the ridiculous. :D

You both have fair points, but I'm not convinced the mode of debate you two are commencing to practice is going to get very far. You don't get a free ride to Hermannsdenkmal for establish that one is more German than the other. :wsg

You're both German by blood, but one is evidently a German-descended American whilst the other is a German-descended German. Discussions over who is more German become moot point there, and the Americans vs. Europeans debate is getting a little old anyway. :P

The energy you two are about to waste is used much better to debate the topic at hand, Americanism hindering over Germany and Germans getting uptight about it and German-Americans having German ancestors are long-known facts that are much of a waste of energy to debate. It's colloquially called stating the blatantly obvious. ;)

Peoples Observer
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Being a man myself, I know that sometimes you desperately feel like exhibiting that you've got balls, but I think debating who is more German than the other is taking it to the ridiculous. :D

You both have fair points, but I'm not convinced the mode of debate you two are commencing to practice is going to get very far. You don't get a free ride to Hermannsdenkmal for establish that one is more German than the other. :wsg

You're both German by blood, but one is evidently a German-descended American whilst the other is a German-descended German. Discussions over who is more German become moot point there, and the Americans vs. Europeans debate is getting a little old anyway. :P

The energy you two are about to waste is used much better to debate the topic at hand, Americanism hindering over Germany and Germans getting uptight about it and German-Americans having German ancestors are long-known facts that are much of a waste of energy to debate. It's colloquially called stating the blatantly obvious. ;)

Fair enough Sigi !

I don't like to waste energy, but the guy used provocation.

I'm of the same blood even though born in a "colony".

Kind of like say for instance Josef Men**e's son is born in a South American country.
The son is speaking German and Living German.
Is that a fault of his own that he was not born in the Fatherland ?

Further more my post was aimed at UNIFYING GERMANS and this guy sees fit to attack that.

Well I give you credit for being the "Austrian King Solomon" in being wise most of the time.

Nachtengel
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 07:41 PM
Kind of like say for instance Josef Men**e's son is born in a South American country.
Rolf Mengele was actually born in Germany.


The son is speaking German and Living German.
Precisely, so he is a German. He is, however, a traitor.

Do you live as a German and speak German?

Peoples Observer
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 09:39 PM
Rolf Mengele was actually born in Germany.


Precisely, so he is a German. He is, however, a traitor.

Do you live as a German and speak German?

I was making an example in the Meng**e case, the example focusing on a German being born in a foreign land, but still being loyal to his German roots.

Yes I speak German, live German, married a Bavarian woman (born in Munich)
have fought for German causes which will not be discussed here.

A pure blooded German, even born in Japan or Iran, is still racially a German blooded person who can be include in the Volksdeutsche category. As long as he keeps his blood pure and lives a German lifestyle, loyal to his German roots. :thumbup

Herr Hitler as well wanted to include ALL Germans worldwide into a new Reich.

Have you folks ever heard of the German-American Bund ?

According to the East German Ossi, they can't count as German, since they lived in America. :thumbdown

I believe in a united Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, South Tyrol, North Schleswig, Pommerania, Silesia, Alsace, Sudetenland.

I also believe that racial Germans worlwide are also welcome into the German Reich if they stay loyal to Germania.

We have no use for Russian-lovers, Commies or other deviants. :thumbdown

Æmeric
Friday, November 13th, 2009, 10:05 PM
fMFXXGOZYg0

The music in that song, especially the chorus, sounds an awful lot like a song we use to sing in Sunday school in the 60s. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HY5aVXNxrI&feature=related)

Edit: The tune for "Ami go Home" & "Jesus Loves the Little Children" both come from the American Civil War song Tramp! Tramp! Tramp! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp!_Tramp!_Tramp!)

Nachtengel
Saturday, November 14th, 2009, 04:28 AM
I was making an example in the Meng**e case, the example focusing on a German being born in a foreign land, but still being loyal to his German roots.
It was a bad example since he was born in Germany.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with where you were born and live. It has to do with how you live and how you identify.


Yes I speak German, live German, married a Bavarian woman (born in Munich)
have fought for German causes which will not be discussed here.

A pure blooded German, even born in Japan or Iran, is still racially a German blooded person who can be include in the Volksdeutsche category. As long as he keeps his blood pure and lives a German lifestyle, loyal to his German roots. :thumbup

Herr Hitler as well wanted to include ALL Germans worldwide into a new Reich.Volksdeutsche from Europe don't consider themselves Russian, Polish, Romanian, Czech, Hungarian and the like. German-Americans on the other hand, like to dip their foot in both ponds, as the hyphenated name implies. Germans don't like this. You are either one of us, or one of them. And if you are one of us, you can't be one of them too. Simple as that. We don't accept double loyalties. So, you can't be "German-American". You are either German, or American. Most Germans in the USA chose to be American over German. Many don't speak German and in WWII chose to fight against their motherland.


Have you folks ever heard of the German-American Bund ?Is that the society which accepts Jews and Negroes as long as they had a German speaking ancestor?


According to the East German Ossi, they can't count as German, since they lived in America. :thumbdownOssi accepts people who live in other countries, but he is skeptical of the Anglosphere. You have several times preached white unity. White unity is alien to Germany. A German nationalist would be hard pressed to unite with Poles or Russians. It's an American ideology, which wasn't designed for Europe, but some Americans keep insisting to import it here. Don't be surprised if it gets rejected and met with hostility.


I believe in a united Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, South Tyrol, North Schleswig, Pommerania, Silesia, Alsace, Sudetenland.

I also believe that racial Germans worlwide are also welcome into the German Reich if they stay loyal to Germania.
In case you didn't notice, this is what we want too. You're barking at the wrong tree. However a united Germany isn't compatible with regional supremacy.

Peoples Observer
Saturday, November 14th, 2009, 10:13 PM
You have several times preached white unity. White unity is alien to Germany. A German nationalist would be hard pressed to unite with Poles or Russians. It's an American ideology, which wasn't designed for Europe, but some Americans keep insisting to import it here.

Well if you are against White Unity than thats your choice.

Why are you so hostile to Germans being allied with other White Racialist nationalities ?

In case you did not realize it Germans are White.

In case you had not noticed. Whites in gereral and Germanics in particular are a rapidly diminishing breed in this colored world.

You should be damned glad to have other Germanics on your side in the coming battles.

As long as other White Nationalists are not harming German interests, what is wrong with an alliance in the struggle against the non-Whites ?

Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch, English, Irish, Scots, Flemings, Walloons along with many French, Italians, Spaniards, Finns, Latvians etc........ can all be allied to Germans against the multitudes of enemies.

This is not saying that they mix in with Germans, but to fight alongside Germans in our common anti-communist, anti-zionist, anti-muslim, anti-miscegenist struggle.




Is that the society which accepts Jews and Negroes as long as they had a German speaking ancestor?

Anyone who thinks that the German-American Bund accepted the above mentioned groups is either on drugs and/or mentally challenged. :thumbdown

The G-A-P was an Auslandsorganisation sanctioned by the German NSDAP. :thumbup

I notice a pattern that the East Germans on this board biased against me. They can hate me all they please for being NS and for being able to work with other Germanic White groups who are like-minded. It won't deter me.

And by the way just being born in Germany is not enough.
You must be a dedicated NS adherent and willing to sacrifice all for the Volk.


[Moderation note: Discussion has been split from here (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=51271&page=6).]



You are an American, not a German. Who Americans accept is irrelevant to German nationalists. Americans, Canadians and Australians aren't Volksdeutsche.

American citizenship means nothing.

Racial lineage, German Racial loyalty, cultural upbringing and language skills account for who is German.

By those terms I'm a German. And when I move to Germany I'll be a fully fledged German.

Even though the BRD citizenship is little better than the American citizenship. :thumbdown

And by the way the opinions of anti-social Red Germans count for nothing.

Huginn ok Muninn
Saturday, November 14th, 2009, 10:55 PM
There is one thing I want to say to Ossi, Hauke, and Jäger. You're just fools. Sorry, but that about covers it. Your pure hatred for ALL americans, even if they are Germanic in blood, reject american imperialism and embrace their Germanic culture (and by Germanic I am speaking in terms of the meta-ethnicity shared by Scandinavians like Hersir and English folk like Renwein,) you just HATE us and want to be our enemies. I have never received one thank you from any of you for any post, though I have offered many. I have never had a rep from any of you though they have been offered as well. Frankly, it was this very attitude that got Germany into two world wars and put you in your present situation. An alliance was offered with England, a fellow Germanic nation, TWICE, in 1899 and again in 1900, but certain folks (like Friedrich von Holstein) with precisely your mindset wanted to ignore the offered hand of friendship and preferred to isolate Germany. If Britain and Germany had been allies, there could hardly have been the loss of a generation of strong young men on both sides in WWI much less the utter destruction which was WWII. Fighting against each other rather than side by side ruined the power of both sides while the rest of the world waited to carve up the remains (and you bet that included that pedantic slimeball Woodrow Wilson who I loathe probably even more than you do.) Enough with this infighting. Haven't we all had enough of it to last an eternity?

Hauke Haien
Saturday, November 14th, 2009, 11:25 PM
Frankly, it was this very attitude that got Germany into two world wars
Certainly.


and put you in your present situation.
We would be in the same situation if we had simply allowed others to continue without keeping their growth in check, which is the fate of most other Germanic countries in Europe. What destroyed us was not the defeat, it was the "friendship" that followed it.


An alliance was offered with England, a fellow Germanic nation, TWICE, in 1899 and again in 1900, but certain folks (like Friedrich von Holstein) with precisely your mindset wanted to ignore the offered hand of friendship and preferred to isolate Germany.
You are dreaming. The British Empire could not afford a hegemon in Continental Europe, no matter what.


If Britain and Germany had been allies, there could hardly have been the loss of a generation of strong young men on both sides in WWI much less the utter destruction which was WWII.
We could have seen a war between the British Empire and the US, which would have been more advantageous for us. Unfortunately, our position dictated an involvement in the majority of all possible wars. It does not make much of a difference who our enemy is.


Enough with this infighting. Haven't we all had enough of it to last an eternity?
A nation with such an attitude is as good as dead. No, we can't destroy ourselves for your benefit.

Peoples Observer
Saturday, November 14th, 2009, 11:43 PM
There is one thing I want to say to Ossi, Hauke, and Jäger. You're just fools. Sorry, but that about covers it. Your pure hatred for ALL americans, even if they are Germanic in blood

Yes I second that motion. :thumbup

I'll add these to the list - Todesengel, Ossi and Baerin as being anti-Volksdeutsch, even when some of us are more German and more loyal than many European born Germans. It seems as though the eastern-oriented Germans have been poisoned from birth with Soviet inclinations.

But on a positive note with folks like Sigurd, Valkyie, Velvet and others who are more about embracing all unity-minded Germans than bashing Germans who happen to have been born abroad. :thumbup

Examples :

1. Reichs Food Minister Walther Darre (German & Swedish) born in Argentina.
2. Deputy Fuehrer Rudolf Hess was born in Egypt.
3. Reich Health Minister Leonardo Conti (German & Italian Swiss).
4. Reichsminister Alfred Rosenberg born in Estonia.
5. Adolf Hitler (Austo-Bavarian) born in Austria.

Were these men not as good as other Germans ?
I rest my case. If they were good enough for the NSDAP than good enough for us.

Charles Lindbergh was a Swedish-American who was known to oppose WW2 and as being anti-Jewish.

Henry Ford an English-American was a donator of money to Hitler and the NSDAP.

Charles Coughlin an Irish-American delivering anti-Jewish and anti-Communist lectures on American radio.

All of the above whether German or allied Germanic are worthy of inclusion in a future Germanic Empire.

William Pelley, a Scots-English American leader of the anti-Communist, anti-Jewish, pro-German Silvershirts.

True Germans with an Empire view will accept Germans from abroad in the spirit of true Germandom. :thumbup


No, we can't destroy ourselves for your benefit.

Who on this forum is asking Germany to be destroyed for another country's benefit ? :thumbdown

Certainly not I.

How about importing all Volksdeutsche from abroad who are German patriots and who want to become fully Germanised in order to contribute to Germany, in exchange for all of the parasitic, non-patriotic Germans currently in the BRD ?

Would not that strengthen Germandom ?

Hauke Haien
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 12:16 AM
Unification processes are precipitated by power imbalances, which usually means that dominant structures replace subordinate ones. A call for unity represents an intention to progressively dissolve partially integrated structures.

Germany currently lacks the power to break the United States and conquer it. It is therefore reasonable to reject demands for immediate unity.

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 12:45 AM
We would be in the same situation if we had simply allowed others to continue without keeping their growth in check, which is the fate of most other Germanic countries in Europe. What destroyed us was not the defeat, it was the "friendship" that followed it.

There can be no friendship on unequal terms. Friendship before the World Wars would have prevented the World Wars, and allowed the Prussian point of view to influence British foreign policy, exercised prudently.

And the friendship I am talking about here on this board is not the "friendship" of the american jew dominated government and the BRD, which I agree has been nothing but detrimental to Germany. Friends do not occupy one anothers' homelands by force. No, I'm talking about what this board SHOULD be about, the friendship of individuals who all share the concern of preserving our culture, wholly and individually. I don't want you to accept americanization. I, like you, want the american forces and multinationals out of Germany. I accept you for being a Prussian and Sigurd for being Austrian. I accept Renwein for being English and Hersir for being Norwegian. What I cannot accept is being "american" for myself, simply because America is, as someone once aptly put it, half judaized and half negrified. This in no way represents my culture, personally, and I despise being exposed to it. Most every Germanic american here would probably agree, and that's why we are here. I think that as adults we all have the capacity to respect each others ethnic individuality while at the same time appreciating our commonality as members of a meta-ethnicity.


You are dreaming. The British Empire could not afford a hegemon in Continental Europe, no matter what.

Many in the British government were also skeptical, but this was Joseph Chamberlain's initiative, he was able to get approval for it twice (possibly because Germany was not as powerful in 1900 as it was in 1914,) and the offer was made. It so happened that the German Government did not respond to it. It was a rare chance, but it was missed, to the sadness of many widows on both sides.

Britain was foolish as well, they should have realized (as I'm sure Chamberlain did) that Russia would be the hegemon of the future.


We could have seen a war between the British Empire and the US, which would have been more advantageous for us.

That was a possibility for awhile. Britain, as we all know, was very jealous about owning the sea.


Unfortunately, our position dictated an involvement in the majority of all possible wars.

Let me alter that slightly.. all inevitable wars. One of the statesmen I admire most is Bismarck, who chose his wars very carefully and then satisfied himself with peace and strategic alliances to maintain the Empire he had built. The lapse of the pact with Russia may eventually have been inevitable, but the aforementioned alliance with Britain would have allowed this to happen from a position of strength.


It does not make much of a difference who our enemy is.

But it does make a difference who your friends are. Being alone against a sea of enemies is not strategically prudent.


A nation with such an attitude is as good as dead. No, we can't destroy ourselves for your benefit.

Why would your destruction benefit me? Do I have a hooked nose and sidelocks? I don't think so. We simply need to realize that our enemies are not one another, at least as individuals or as small groups who appreciate our individual and shared ethnicities and meta-ethnicities. The americans on this board are not seeking to deprive you of your identity, and if any support the US government or its occupation of foreign lands, I would be the first to educate them otherwise.


Unification processes are precipitated by power imbalances, which usually means that dominant structures replace subordinate ones. A call for unity represents an intention to progressively dissolve partially integrated structures.

Not necessarily. It sounds like you are describing German unification in the 1800s again. This succeeded, but only partially, because parts of the old Reich remained outside in this process.


Germany currently lacks the power to break the United States and conquer it. It is therefore reasonable to reject demands for immediate unity.

I think we should stop talking about political unity. As you say, it's an unrealistic goal right now, and again, it is not 1866, and the situation is different. At the moment I utterly oppose globalism because it is not to the advantage of the various Germanic peoples. Now, if all non-Germanic individuals were to somehow suddenly vanish from the globe, I would be all for some sort of politically unifying confederation. But I think we should still refrain from annihilating each other unless it is absolutely necessary.

Nachtengel
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 01:56 AM
Well if you are against White Unity than thats your choice.

Why are you so hostile to Germans being allied with other White Racialist nationalities ?

In case you did not realize it Germans are White.

In case you had not noticed. Whites in gereral and Germanics in particular are a rapidly diminishing breed in this colored world.

You should be damned glad to have other Germanics on your side in the coming battles.

As long as other White Nationalists are not harming German interests, what is wrong with an alliance in the struggle against the non-Whites ?

Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch, English, Irish, Scots, Flemings, Walloons along with many French, Italians, Spaniards, Finns, Latvians etc........ can all be allied to Germans against the multitudes of enemies.

This is not saying that they mix in with Germans, but to fight alongside Germans in our common anti-communist, anti-zionist, anti-muslim, anti-miscegenist struggle.
Why am I so hostile to WN? Let's think... maybe because Germany was allied with other white nations before, and they betrayed her? :oanieyes

WN and German interests don't correspond. Simple as that. No Italian, no Pole, no Russian, will ever agree to cede German land back.

I notice a pattern that the East Germans on this board biased against me. They can hate me all they please for being NS and for being able to work with other Germanic White groups who are like-minded. It won't deter me.

And by the way just being born in Germany is not enough.
You must be a dedicated NS adherent and willing to sacrifice all for the Volk.

American citizenship means nothing.

Racial lineage, German Racial loyalty, cultural upbringing and language skills account for who is German.

By those terms I'm a German. And when I move to Germany I'll be a fully fledged German.
I notice a pattern that Americans on this board who want to be seen as Germans hate the Germans who don't see them as such.

I've already said a million times by now it has nothing to do with being born in Germany.

"German-Americans", as a group, have already chosen their loyalties alongside history. Does WWI or WWII ring any bells? How is it that so many German-Americans, the most dominant ethnic group, or the second-most after the English, took arms against Germany? Against their own fatherland? Supported and even took part themselves in the military operations which raided our cities and bombed our women and children?

And let's look at the statistics from the censuses:


50 million Americans have German ancestry. German Americans represent 17% of the total U.S. population and 26% of the non-Hispanic white population.

About 1.5 million Americans speak German today.


Even though the BRD citizenship is little better than the American citizenship. :thumbdown
Explain.


And by the way the opinions of anti-social Red Germans count for nothing.
I am not "red".


There is one thing I want to say to Ossi, Hauke, and Jäger. You're just fools. Sorry, but that about covers it. Your pure hatred for ALL americans, even if they are Germanic in blood, reject american imperialism and embrace their Germanic culture (and by Germanic I am speaking in terms of the meta-ethnicity shared by Scandinavians like Hersir and English folk like Renwein,) you just HATE us and want to be our enemies.
I don't really hate Americans. I just don't consider the majority of "German-Americans" to be German. I don't see you as brothers but as cousins. And you can't change that feeling. I have to warn you though, as well as your friend peoples Observer, about it. You will encounter it among many German nationalists. And what you encounter here, on Skadi, is not comparable to what you might encounter among the most hardcore German nationalists. Some go so far as refusing to speak any English because it's the language of Roosevelt and the oppressors. Go to Thiazi. You speak German don't you? If you don't, then Peoples Observer said he's fluent, so he should be able to compose a thread asking German nationalists what they think of German-Americans.

And Peoples Observer was talking about when nationalism rises again in Germany. Well when that happens, I wish good luck to the Americans who happen to sit on German soil then. You'll need it.

And also ask American nationalists what they think about Americans who constantly denounce being American and spit on it.


I have never received one thank you from any of you for any post, though I have offered many. I have never had a rep from any of you though they have been offered as well.
I gave thanks and reputation out to other Americans on this board. If haven't given you a thanks it probably means I found to have little in common with you.


Frankly, it was this very attitude that got Germany into two world wars and put you in your present situation. An alliance was offered with England, a fellow Germanic nation, TWICE, in 1899 and again in 1900, but certain folks (like Friedrich von Holstein) with precisely your mindset wanted to ignore the offered hand of friendship and preferred to isolate Germany. If Britain and Germany had been allies, there could hardly have been the loss of a generation of strong young men on both sides in WWI much less the utter destruction which was WWII. Fighting against each other rather than side by side ruined the power of both sides while the rest of the world waited to carve up the remains (and you bet that included that pedantic slimeball Woodrow Wilson who I loathe probably even more than you do.) Enough with this infighting. Haven't we all had enough of it to last an eternity?
Oh, so now blaming it on the Germans? How cliche!

May I remind you that Hitler offered peace to England several times? And how did England receive it? By ignoring it and supporting a Slavic nation instead.

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 02:08 AM
Certainly.


Oh, so now blaming it on the Germans? How cliche!

May I remind you that Hitler offered peace to England several times? And how did England receive it? By ignoring it and supporting a Slavic nation instead.

It's constructive criticism, I meant it no other way. I am speaking to you as a friend, yet you only want to see an enemy. It's only a cliche because of your (understandable) bias. You saw that coming out of the arrogant mouth of someone like Montgomery or Roosevelt, but it didn't. It came from someone who does not want to see you isolated and alone AGAIN as you were at that time.

I did say somewhere that the Brits were pig-headed as well, so you're not the only ones. But consider the price of such pigheadedness. Is it not better to be friends than enemies? We have enemies enough in common. This has been my whole point here.


And also ask American nationalists what they think about Americans who constantly denounce being American and spit on it.

There is no such thing as America anymore. Anyone who is an "American nationalist" is simply confused. There is no nation without common blood and common culture. There are the "White nationalists" who simply try to embrace being European-descended, and for political reasons, it's prudent to support that movement, because, like I said, it's better to have friends than enemies.

Do I consider myself a "White Nationalist?" Honestly, I feel no particular kinship toward non-Germanic White people, but they are better than swarms of mexicans and blacks.

You see, I would have you avoid this problem in Europe. The EU is an enemy so evil you cannot comprehend what they will do. If they can, they will make you feel as alone and under siege as I do in this godforsaken land. You still have your identity. Fight to keep it.

Ossi
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 02:17 AM
It's constructive criticism, I meant it no other way. I am speaking to you as a friend, yet you only want to see an enemy. It's only a cliche because of your (understandable) bias. You saw that coming out of the arrogant mouth of someone like Montgomery or Roosevelt, but it didn't. It came from someone who does not want to see you isolated and alone AGAIN as you were at that time.

I did say somewhere that the Brits were pig-headed as well, so you're not the only ones. But consider the price of such pigheadedness. Is it not better to be friends than enemies? We have enemies enough in common. This has been my whole point here.
The USA is forcing the FRG to be a part of a friendship with Israel, and the traitors in the FRG are accepting it. We don't need friendships. It's Germany before anything and anyone else, get it.

By the way, how are a few Americans from the Internet boards seeing themselves as Germans going to help Germany against the enemies? Considering the majority of Americans would support bombing Germany into oblivion if she ever had nationalist intentions again. What exactly do you offer to do?

Ítreksjóð
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 02:25 AM
Usually, the hostility against Americans comes the moment Americans declare themselves selfproclaimed Germans and are overzealous about it. Desperation to fit in, be accepted, and throwing a fit when it doesn't happen is characteristic of minorities in our countries, so the attitude is very much frowned upon.

Insulting whole groups of Germans or blaming their nation reveals that despite trying to come off as German, your mindset differentiates between an "us" and a "them", "them" being Germany and Germans.

I advise you to think up a different strategy for reconciliation.

Dagna
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 02:31 AM
There is no such thing as America anymore. Anyone who is an "American nationalist" is simply confused. There is no nation without common blood and common culture. There are the "White nationalists" who simply try to embrace being European-descended, and for political reasons, it's prudent to support that movement, because, like I said, it's better to have friends than enemies.

Do I consider myself a "White Nationalist?" Honestly, I feel no particular kinship toward non-Germanic White people, but they are better than swarms of mexicans and blacks.

You see, I would have you avoid this problem in Europe. The EU is an enemy so evil you cannot comprehend what they will do. If they can, they will make you feel as alone and under siege as I do in this godforsaken land. You still have your identity. Fight to keep it.
America was built by our forefathers, who were Germanic. The ancestral American identity is Anglo-Germanic. If you do not feel American and you have an identity problem, do not blame it on America. The founding fathers built this nation with sweat and blood. They fought for its independence. If they merely wanted to be vassals to Europe, they would have stayed there. We are what we are, Americans, and we should not be ashamed of this fact.

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 02:37 AM
The USA is forcing the FRG to be a part of a friendship with Israel, and the traitors in the FRG are accepting it. We don't need friendships. It's Germany before anything and anyone else, get it.

By the way, how are a few Americans from the Internet boards seeing themselves as Germans going to help Germany against the enemies? Considering the majority of Americans would support bombing Germany into oblivion if she ever had nationalist intentions again. What exactly do you offer to do?


Usually, the hostility against Americans comes the moment Americans declare themselves selfproclaimed Germans and are overzealous about it. Desperation to fit in, be accepted, and throwing a fit when it doesn't happen is characteristic of minorities in our countries, so the attitude is very much frowned upon.

Insulting whole groups of Germans or blaming their nation reveals that despite trying to come off as German, your mindset differentiates between an "us" and a "them", "them" being Germany and Germans.

I advise you to think up a different strategy for reconciliation.

I'm perhaps not making myself clear. I don't consider myself German. But I am not your enemy, and do not appreciate being treated as such.

What could we do? Revolution, or at the very least elect non-interventionist politicians like Ron Paul who would NOT bomb Germany into oblivion for simply being a nation for Germans.


America was built by our forefathers, who were Germanic. The ancestral American identity is Anglo-Germanic. If you do not feel American and you have an identity problem, do not blame it on America. The founding fathers built this nation with sweat and blood. They fought for its independence. If they merely wanted to be vassals to Europe, they would have stayed there. We are what we are, Americans, and we should not be ashamed of this fact.

I'm not ashamed of that identity, but that Anglo-Germanicism has been completely subverted by jews and their government accomplices. If I ever fit into any American niche it would have been as an isolationist, because making war upon my European cousins at the behest of jewish bankers who want to make a buck off the carnage while our best die for no reason, is not anything I could ever support in any way whatsoever.

Hauke Haien
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 03:27 AM
There can be no friendship on unequal terms.
Friendship in the way interpersonal friendship is often imagined cannot be shown to exist in International Relations.


Friendship before the World Wars would have prevented the World Wars, and allowed the Prussian point of view to influence British foreign policy, exercised prudently.
The Anglo-Prussian alliance was not continued with the Reich because an alliance with the most immediate competitor makes no sense and any such intentions could only have existed on paper. Since the First World War was later judged to be a German war of aggression, the British Empire could have easily refused to honour a defensive alliance and attacked instead, the same way Italy did.


No, I'm talking about what this board SHOULD be about
That is a rather different issue. I'll just throw in that it is about ideas for me, their application depending on other contexts.


What I cannot accept is being "american" for myself
You should either accept it, redefine it or stop altogether. Looking at some of the older threads about it could help, e.g. Colonials as Europeans (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=101801).


Britain was foolish as well, they should have realized (as I'm sure Chamberlain did) that Russia would be the hegemon of the future.
Britain was quite correct. We we were victorious on the Eastern Front the first time and we could have defended some of our limited progress the second time.


The americans on this board are not seeking to deprive you of your identity
Attempts to deform it are more common.


Not necessarily. It sounds like you are describing German unification in the 1800s again. This succeeded, but only partially, because parts of the old Reich remained outside in this process.
A combination of pan-Germanic and antipluralist ideas necessarily results in a collapse into narrow nationalism focused on units that are politically and socially real. It does not negate the idea of overarching structure, it simply recognises the need for power, domination and conquest to achieve it for our specific purposes.

Peoples Observer
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 07:59 AM
I have to warn you though, as well as your friend peoples Observer, about it. You will encounter it among many German nationalists. And what you encounter here, on Skadi, is not comparable to what you might encounter among the most hardcore German nationalists.

Thats pure Bu**s**t. :thumbdown

Not only do I have Comrades in Germany who, when I've visited them, accept me as a German NS Brother, but I've marched in German Nationalist
demos against German Communists, Turks and Anti-Fa.

I've been in Berlin, Bremen, Dresden and Rostock and fought alongside my German Brothers.

All of my true German combat Brothers, as opposed to those who sit behind a computer and do internet battle, accept me and I accept them.

If you ever actually risked life and liberty for Comrades on a different continent for THEIR cause then you can lecture me !

Witta
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 08:13 AM
Anti-Americanism is really antisemitism, because that's who makes the TV shows and movies and who shows Americans and Europeans how 'Americans' should act. Modern American culture is sleazy, nasty Israeli culture, Europe has it too but America has had it by far the worst.

Ask people why they don't like America and it is greed, arrogance and low
brow culture. They are not European traits.


Who Rules America?
The Alien Grip on Our News and Entertainment Media Must Be Broken
The mass media form for us our image of the world and then tell us what to think about that image. Essentially everything we know—or think we know—about events outside our own neighborhood or circle of acquaintances comes to us via our daily newspaper, our weekly news magazine, our radio, or our television.
http://www.natall.com/who-rules-america/

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 08:21 AM
The Anglo-Prussian alliance was not continued with the Reich because an alliance with the most immediate competitor makes no sense and any such intentions could only have existed on paper. Since the First World War was later judged to be a German war of aggression, the British Empire could have easily refused to honour a defensive alliance and attacked instead, the same way Italy did.

Britain was quite correct. We we were victorious on the Eastern Front the first time and we could have defended some of our limited progress the second time.

I regard oathbreakers with contempt, as do most true Germanics, including Brits. Italians are not a part of this culture. That's why Italy was a joke even under Il Duce. What a useless ally.

You really seem to wish to accept as inevitable that the Brits and Germans were utterly destined to destroy each other. Too much of that thinking on both sides is why so many lives were wasted. I prefer to think that could have been avoided, because I wish to avoid such conflict in the future. Do you really want the jew laughing at us as we blow each other up while he profits? The idea makes my blood boil.


Attempts to deform it are more common.

Well, if you consider it part of your identity to be at the throats of other Germanics when we could be fighting the true enemy together, then I suppose I am guilty of that. :|


A combination of pan-Germanic and antipluralist ideas necessarily results in a collapse into narrow nationalism focused on units that are politically and socially real. It does not negate the idea of overarching structure, it simply recognises the need for power, domination and conquest to achieve it for our specific purposes.

This is where I would have taken the Habsburg tradition more to heart. Marriage of one generation of Hohenzollerns to the house of Orange and the next to the house of Habsburg by design would have created a powerful new Reich. Of course France would have objected, and Britain too, and the pope, but screw them if they want to start a war of aggression. ;)

Witta
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 08:49 AM
German nationalists are right to distrust the US and UK for being internationalist attack dogs. Most British and American nationalists feel the same way.

Jäger
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Frankly, it was this very attitude that got Germany into two world wars and put you in your present situation.
We just can't help it:

Brother, these Americans are shopkeeper souls stinking to heaven. Dead for all spiritual life, totally dead. The nightingale is right that it does not come to these wretched existences. To me it is of serious, deeper meaning that America has no nightingale at all. To me it seems to be poetic justice. A Niagara voice is necessary to preach to these crooks that there are higher Gods than those coined in the mints.
I think the translation was made by Phlegethon.

The problem with most German-Americans is simple and has been repeatedly stated, they had no desire to stay German or they wouldn't have abandoned their loyalty to Germany, no matter where they were born or when they left.
However, Germany was always very pro-British, yet, the British were very anti-German.

Nachtengel
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Thats pure Bu**s**t. :thumbdown

Not only do I have Comrades in Germany who, when I've visited them, accept me as a German NS Brother, but I've marched in German Nationalist
demos against German Communists, Turks and Anti-Fa.

I've been in Berlin, Bremen, Dresden and Rostock and fought alongside my German Brothers.

All of my true German combat Brothers, as opposed to those who sit behind a computer and do internet battle, accept me and I accept them.

If you ever actually risked life and liberty for Comrades on a different continent for THEIR cause then you can lecture me !
As I said, go on Thiazi and ask. Thiazi is the largest German nationalist board, so you should get a pretty accurate overview.

As for Internet battles, there is no reason why German nationalists should brag on the Internet about their political activities, especially those who know that these boards are full of provocateurs and informants. Usually it's those who brag mostly that are antifas in disguise.

I don't care to impress Americans and whether Americans accept me. ;)

Ítreksjóð
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 04:42 PM
I'm perhaps not making myself clear. I don't consider myself German. But I am not your enemy, and do not appreciate being treated as such.
Perhaps you are a bit paranoid? I don't consider Americans my enemies. I just don't appreciate it when people (of any sort) are desperate for acceptance and when they don't get it, they act like assholes. I get this attitude from immigrants here, so I don't think highly of people behaving this way.


What could we do? Revolution, or at the very least elect non-interventionist politicians like Ron Paul who would NOT bomb Germany into oblivion for simply being a nation for Germans.
Don't tell me the average American who votes for Ron Paul does it for the well being of Germany. Of course it would be great if you guys had a nationalist to head your politics, but let's be realistic: Americans who support Ron Paul do so first and foremost for the well being of the USA. That Ron Paul's politics wouldn't pose a threat for Germany is a simple side effect. I doubt voting for Ron Paul depends on whether Germans like you or not or accept German-Americans as Volksdeutsche. If you care about your country's future, you'll support him anyway.

Jäger
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Well, if you consider it part of your identity to be at the throats of other Germanics when we could be fighting the true enemy together, then I suppose I am guilty of that. :|
The strong is strongest alone, any group which can't be content with itself, and makes itself dependent on others is dead, its fate is to be either extinguished or absorbed, then again, mostly both :|
I agree that the Germanic group has potential, but not now and not through "friendship", you can observe in German history how such things work ;).

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 10:22 PM
The strong is strongest alone, any group which can't be content with itself, and makes itself dependent on others is dead, its fate is to be either extinguished or absorbed, then again, mostly both :|
I agree that the Germanic group has potential, but not now and not through "friendship", you can observe in German history how such things work ;).

Yes, I have observed German History. These observations have informed my opinion, and if I stated that opinion too strongly, I apologize for the rant. I am not "desperate for acceptance" as Ostmark put it, rather keenly aware that your way got Germany "extinguished and absorbed" to some extent, and that is the source of my frustration with you.

You can pull off the blinders for a moment, can't you, and realize that "alone" is not always the best way? The greatest permanent growth of Prussia's power did not come in battle, but at the Congress of Vienna, after a victory won by a coalition. Napoleon might at that time have been the strongest, but his strength did not last and could not last, because the balance of the world was against him. To characterize that coalition as being "dependent" upon each other is simply looking at things negatively. We can go back to the old "trying to break a bundle of sticks" cliche or the "if we don't hang together we shall surely hang separately" quote, but I think you understand my point of view. I am keenly aware of yours, and am equally keenly eager to avoid the mistakes of the past which cost the German people so dearly.


Germany was always very pro-British, yet, the British were very anti-German.

Not at the one crucial point in history I mentioned earlier. At that point the Germany chose to refuse the friendship of the British, and disaster followed.

Hauke Haien
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 11:34 PM
We can go back to the old "trying to break a bundle of sticks" cliche
A Germanic kinship is not a bundle of sticks, it is a fence with each pillar standing strong to prevent outside forces from seeping in. As a unit, they can interact with what is outside, but they cannot rely on it the way they rely on and work toward what is contained within.

Teutonic
Monday, November 16th, 2009, 01:16 AM
And who wants to work with a guy who uses an avatar of a Communist East German trooper ? :thumbdown

Who needs Red East Germans anyways ?

I've used Wa**en S* and Wehrma**t soldiers in my avatars. :thumbup

I'm more German than you are. I stem from PURE Saxon blood from Bremen. I speak German fluently and think with a German mind in all matters. My grandfather was in one of the two above mentioned units in WW2.

You may have Slavic blood from the Russians in your lineage ?

So what if I'm born in a "colony". I'm of pure un-mixed Saxon blood.

At least I know my lineage.


I wasn't going say anything but this pissed me off. Ossi was in my opinon just being blunt and direct with you, which is a very German trait, since you are so German you should know this. You stating that his family might or were raped by Russians is beyond disgusting, at what point in him directing anything at you did he take it that far?

-Gardistan-, if you understand the German language how do you not know what an Eszett is?Any computer can and will allow you to write it.No need for copy and paste otherwise im sure your translator will do it for you.. Todesengel was even nice enough to show you how to write it,ss and the old German way like Jäger pointed out sz.. They were both direct and blunt with you but informative and helpful, all the while taking your rude comments and name calling.Still you persisted to attack her and Bärin? Both women remember and German women! If you are really German than have some damn respect for our women.Also how if you are so Prussian do you not know about Brandenburg?weil du ein pseudopreuße bist:D


As far as Communisim and all the Scheiße being said about it, you are speaking from an American perspective, have you ever been to what was the Easternblock, those states?Brandenburg,Thüringia, Sachsen, Some of the proudest people live there. They value real things like Family, Culture and their Fatherland. If Communisim was the bad and and evil that American and English media and school say about it. I wish that for all of my German Fatherland:D.. Communisim didnt do 1/100th the damage that the liberation by Americans,English,French did and has done to Germany. . Its so nice seeing wiggers,,muslims inside of Germany spewing their multicultural garbage.Its even nice seeing written on walls in Germany, ''Deutschland muss sterben''..Vielen dank für nichts!!!

With all my heart I hate seeing the American, English,French and Russian flags, businesses etc anywhere in Germany.Everything in Germany should be German. The American Flag and embassy next to the Brandenburger Tor is disgusting, same goes for the 1000 mcdonalds or mcscheisse stands everywhere.

Instead of telling everyone your pedigree, if you care so much for our people and Fatherland than shut up and help, donate to conservative parties such as NPD, DVU, BZÖ, FPÖ..Try being the opposite of what you are all being right now.. das Wort ist selbstlos..

Jäger
Monday, November 16th, 2009, 01:18 AM
I am not "desperate for acceptance" as Ostmark put it, rather keenly aware that your way got Germany "extinguished and absorbed" to some extent, and that is the source of my frustration with you.
Germany made mistakes during the war, as did all sides, it just happened we made the more decisive ones, not trying to rely on others wasn't one of them though.


You can pull off the blinders for a moment, can't you, and realize that "alone" is not always the best way?
War alliances might make things "better" or more comfortable, and have merit, but "friendship" is an ill adviser here. Trying to appease the British, to lure them into an alliance was a mistake however, in retrospective that is, I can certainly understand why Hitler tried to do so, and a success would certainly have been beneficial for both parties.


Not at the one crucial point in history I mentioned earlier. At that point the Germany chose to refuse the friendship of the British, and disaster followed.
You are aware that this "friendship" was not unconditional (which is already proof enough that it wasn't "friendship" at all), and that Hitler even argued we should have bowed to these terms, he then tried to, as I said above, to win the English for an alliance, all in all, it might be strategically useful to concede restrictions for the sake of an alliance, however both sides should be very much aware of the fact, that there is a limit to this.

Huginn ok Muninn
Monday, November 16th, 2009, 10:33 PM
Germany made mistakes during the war, as did all sides, it just happened we made the more decisive ones, not trying to rely on others wasn't one of them though.

War alliances might make things "better" or more comfortable, and have merit, but "friendship" is an ill adviser here. Trying to appease the British, to lure them into an alliance was a mistake however, in retrospective that is, I can certainly understand why Hitler tried to do so, and a success would certainly have been beneficial for both parties.

You are aware that this "friendship" was not unconditional (which is already proof enough that it wasn't "friendship" at all), and that Hitler even argued we should have bowed to these terms, he then tried to, as I said above, to win the English for an alliance, all in all, it might be strategically useful to concede restrictions for the sake of an alliance, however both sides should be very much aware of the fact, that there is a limit to this.

I was actually talking about the 1899 and 1900 alliance offers from Britain to Germany. Really, once there was a WWI and the falsely punitive Versailles Treaty, a WWII was practically inevitable. France was not punished so in 1815, though there was just enough cause to do so, moreso than against Germany in 1918. Such is the power of propaganda, and that was employed on a massive scale to sow hatred against Germany in the years before and especially during WWI. Guess who the propagandists were, by the way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

When my mother's older sisters were very young, they were sitting on their porch in Minnesota during WWI, singing a German song, and my grandmother, so fearful of the anti-German hatred that had been stirred up, ran out to bring them in. The hateful jew at work; his evil will never be forgotten. His purpose was always to drive a wedge between Germanic peoples and make us fight each other for his own purposes, while financing the carnage and getting rich in the process.

Britain was not yet completely under the jewish sway in 1900, though they were on their way. And at that time, France, who was Britain's traditional enemy, was actually their main competitor, not Germany. It was a beautiful, elegant solution at that time to ally with Britain. Germany did not have its huge fleet of dreadnoughts yet, so Britain did not feel threatened. It might have been possible to switch many of the resources and technological effort from warships to mechanized fighting vehicles.. tanks.. a more efficient and meaningful use of these resources, which, if events had transpired in an otherwise similar fashion, could have been used most effectively against any aggression by Russia or France. Furthermore, in the event of such agression, the future German/Austrian empire might include both states plus the eventual line agreed upon in Brest-Litovsk, which would give Germany Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states. Without the United States involved, and Britain on her side, or at the very least neutral, Germany could have become a superpower in 1918.

As to the foreign policy of the 30s you speak of, I think befriending Japan was a mistake. If the relationship with Nationalist China had been maintained instead, and Britain had been conquered in 1940, once again Britain and the US would be out of the equation, because simply denouncing the Pearl Harbor attack would have doused whatever flames of belligerence the jews in the US might have been fanning against Germany.

But we've gone off topic. Sorry about that. I think I've made my point though that 3 in ones favor against 2 enemies is preferable to 2 in ones favor against 4 enemies. It does matter who your friends are.

Jäger
Monday, November 16th, 2009, 11:31 PM
I was actually talking about the 1899 and 1900 alliance offers from Britain to Germany.
Yes. I was referring to this. You might know that Germany started to look like serious competition to the English, growing industrial strength and growing colonies etc.
They demanded that we cease the extension of our colonies, even hand it over to British authority, and spare them our industrial competition.


I think I've made my point though that 3 in ones favor against 2 enemies is preferable to 2 in ones favor against 4 enemies. It does matter who your friends are.
It is favorable, depending on the situation, to have strong friends, however, it is delusional to merely draw on the strength of others, the goal must be to be strong enough alone.
This line of discussion started with you stating that some members here hate anything American, and that this is no strategically intelligent approach, however, no matter what exceptions America can present, it doesn't change the fact, that it is the spear head of degeneration, delivering it to our worlds, or at least trying to protect the presence of it.
Our loyalty is not to the American people, therefor it is much more important to get rid of its influence, than to be reluctant in using means available, simply out of fear of "alienating" American inhabitants.
Neither America nor the British offer alliance, thus we did not turn it down, we just don't think it does any good to wait for it to happen, and dying off in the process is too much of a risk.

Huginn ok Muninn
Tuesday, November 17th, 2009, 03:00 AM
Yes. I was referring to this. You might know that Germany started to look like serious competition to the English, growing industrial strength and growing colonies etc.
They demanded that we cease the extension of our colonies, even hand it over to British authority, and spare them our industrial competition.

Some of this may be true, and knowing the arrogance with which Britain used the supposed threat of Napoleon to seize anything they could find an excuse to seize and using their sea power to maintain it, I wouldn't put it past them. Laughing at the sillier demands and negotiating the rest might still have been possible though, as a means to an overall end which, admittedly, we here have the advantage of hindsight to see. Almost anything is better than setting each others young against one another while the jew rubs his hands and gets rich in the deal, however.


It is favorable, depending on the situation, to have strong friends, however, it is delusional to merely draw on the strength of others, the goal must be to be strong enough alone.

Agreed. All contingencies should be covered for the nation in its own right when forming an alliance. Having Italy as an "ally" twice would make any nation wary of such arrangements. Good relations and honorable partners are essential.


This line of discussion started with you stating that some members here hate anything American, and that this is no strategically intelligent approach, however, no matter what exceptions America can present, it doesn't change the fact, that it is the spear head of degeneration, delivering it to our worlds, or at least trying to protect the presence of it.

Actually, if you will go back and look, I accused you of hating "all Americans," which I admit was an emotional statement and I apologize if it's not true, but you really should be able to differentiate between those individuals who would come and be a part of Skadi in good faith and the American mass media which is run (as, unfortunately, is Germany's) by zionist jews.


Our loyalty is not to the American people, therefor it is much more important to get rid of its influence, than to be reluctant in using means available, simply out of fear of "alienating" American inhabitants.
Neither America nor the British offer alliance, thus we did not turn it down, we just don't think it does any good to wait for it to happen, and dying off in the process is too much of a risk.

Before we speak as though we controlled our respective nations, don't you think we should work on that very program? In the meanwhile, an alliance of nationalists against our common globalist enemies should be top priority, especially in the European parliament, where the various identities of European peoples are all under attack. If you do not like the lack of identity that the melting pot of different European peoples has produced in America, you should form that alliance there and oppose it within the European parliament.

Our cultural schism remains. Perhaps if we are to understand one another better we should try and figure out how it formed in the first place. I admit, our upbringing in America causes us to suffer greatly on a cultural level and lack many of the qualities that you find admirable in Germans. Mostly because of democracy, traditions of honor have been breaking down during the past two centuries throughout our countries. Those traditions faded first in America and held on the longest in Germany. The WWI propaganda spouted by the evil Bernays told American soldiers that they were fighting to "make the world safe for democracy." Right. This predicated these people already having been indoctrinated that there was something inherently good about democracy. Democracy is just a form of government, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. Of course no one talks about the disadvantages. The disadvantages are, of course, that power shifts from an upper class that is trained all its life in the responsibilities of leadership to a class of propagandists who can sway the rabble in whatever direction they choose. This is why allowing jews to occupy this rank has rotted us from within. As long as a nation defines itself, it is free. When it allows others to define it, it ceases to be so. This has happened in America for years, and I can understand how sharply this stands in contrast to folk from the former DDR. It also explains why Bärin can come to the conclusions she has about communism. Well, dear Bärin, it isn't the form of government so much as whether it does its duty to the people it's charged with governing, and does not allow outsiders to define the nation. You can say now that the outsider is the "American," but we have been defined by outsiders for decades. The real outsider is the zionist jew.

Peoples Observer
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 06:11 AM
German nationalists are right to distrust the US and UK for being internationalist attack dogs. Most British and American nationalists feel the same way.

They are right to distrust the USA and UK governments

However why should they not trust White Nationalists from the UK and USA ?

If the German Nationalists and other White Nationalists can agree to work together then that only makes the World Germanic community stronger against our adversaries. :thumbup

Examples :

1. Reichs Food Minister Walther Darre (German & Swedish) born in Argentina.
2. Deputy Fuehrer Rudolf Hess was born in Egypt.
3. Reich Health Minister Leonardo Conti (German & Italian Swiss).
4. Reichsminister Alfred Rosenberg born in Estonia.
5. Adolf Hitler (Austo-Bavarian) born in Austria.

Were these men not as good as other Germans ?
I rest my case. If they were good enough for the NSDAP than good enough for us.

Charles Lindbergh was a Swedish-American who was known to oppose WW2 and as being anti-Jewish.

Henry Ford an English-American was a donator of money to Hitler and the NSDAP.

Charles Coughlin an Irish-American delivering anti-Jewish and anti-Communist lectures on American radio.

All of the above whether German or allied Germanic are worthy of inclusion in a future Germanic Empire.

William Pelley, a Scots-English American leader of the anti-Communist, anti-Jewish, pro-German Silvershirts.

True Germans with a Germanic Empire view will accept Germans, Germanics and Celts from abroad in the spirit of true Germandom.



You have several times preached white unity. White unity is alien to Germany.

White Unity is NOT alien to Germans.

Did you ever hear of the Germanic-SS during WW2 ?

Members of National Socialist and Nationalist parties from Denmark, Norway, Holland and Flanders who formed battalions in Waffen-SS Divisions.

Along with SS-Legions from France, Italy, Finland, Hungary, Latvia and Estonia.

Furthermore there were Germanic volunteers from Switzerland, Sweden and England.

I'm proud to stand for both German Pride and White Pride.


I wasn't going say anything but this pissed me off.

Don't be so emotional. :D

Hauke Haien
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 07:55 AM
If the German Nationalists and other White Nationalists can agree to work together
German White Nationalists are traitors to the German cause. We can work with anyone if and as long as it is in our interest; that fact says nothing about the quality of those we work with and it does not mean that we join their cause.


Examples :

1. Reichs Food Minister Walther Darre (German & Swedish) born in Argentina.
2. Deputy Fuehrer Rudolf Hess was born in Egypt.
3. Reich Health Minister Leonardo Conti (German & Italian Swiss).
4. Reichsminister Alfred Rosenberg born in Estonia.
5. Adolf Hitler (Austo-Bavarian) born in Austria.
They were proper Germans, not worthless Whites.

Peoples Observer
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 04:17 PM
German White Nationalists are traitors to the German cause.

True German Nationalists will take major offence to those kind of statements.

The German cause and the Germanic cause are compatible.

Its a good thing that most Nationalists in Germany and the Germanic countries don't share your short-sighted views.

The majority of Germanics and Germans do indeed work with other White Nationalists, provided that they respect each others borders, culture and people.

Bärin
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 04:22 PM
True German Nationalists will take major offence to those kind of statements.
Nah, they'll agree with him. :)


Its a good thing that most Nationalists in Germany and the Germanic countries don't share your short-sighted views.

The majority of Germanics and Germans do indeed work with other White Nationalists, provided that they respect each others borders, culture and people.
The majority of Germanics and Germans aren't nationalists or racialists, hence the regime we have in place today and they support and vote for.

Jäger
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 04:37 PM
German White Nationalists are traitors to the German cause.

... provided that they respect each others borders, culture and people.
Q.E.D. :D

Peoples Observer
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 07:36 PM
German White Nationalists are traitors to the German cause.

Define the German cause and how German Nationalists are traitors.

For example, if there were an invading Turkish & Arab Muslim army at Germany's doorstep and some Norwegian and French volunteers show up in Germany to assist their German allies, to defend German soil, would you class the Germans as traitors for accepting their assistance ?



The majority of Germanics and Germans aren't nationalists or racialists, hence the regime we have in place today and they support and vote for.

Even more reason to attract politically reliable Germanic and German Nationalists to the Greater Germanic Community.

We (Racialists) are outnumbered not only by the non-Europids, but by our own leftist citizens who are the real traitors. :thumbdown

Are you so arrogant to not accept these Germanic allies to the greater good ?

I thought this forum was about Germanic Preservation, not only Germans in Germany Preservation.

If that is the case you alienate all of the Germanic allies, Volksdeutsche and the Germans living abroad.

Not too clever.:thumbdown

Bärin
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 08:00 PM
Define the German cause and how German Nationalists are traitors.
He said German White Nationalists, not German Nationalists. Don't put words in the others' mouths. :)

White Nationalists are traitors because there is no white nation, only a German nation. White Nationalists excuse the expansion or Russia, Poland, Italy and the like over German lands in the name of "white unity" and when Germans object they are called anti-WN. :oanieyes


For example, if there were an invading Turkish & Arab Muslim army at Germany's doorstep and some Norwegian and French volunteers show up in Germany to assist their German allies, to defend German soil, would you class the Germans as traitors for accepting their assistance ?
Don't ask silly questions please.


Even more reason to attract politically reliable Germanic and German Nationalists to the Greater Germanic Community.
I didn't oppose this. :)


We (Racialists) are outnumbered not only by the non-Europids, but by our own leftist citizens who are the real traitors. :thumbdown
Yes, that's what I said. Nationalists are a minority.


Are you so arrogant to not accept these Germanic allies to the greater good ?

I thought this forum was about Germanic Preservation, not only Germans in Germany Preservation.

If that is the case you alienate all of the Germanic allies, Volksdeutsche and the Germans living abroad.

Not too clever.:thumbdown
It looks like you can't read. I never said I don't accept allies. What I don't accept is Americans who want to be German but are obviously not. You fly the American flag. You're not volksdeutsch. I don't consider you German. Simple as that. I can accept you as my ally in a Germanic alliance, but you're a Germanic American, not a German.

Hauke Haien
Saturday, November 21st, 2009, 09:29 PM
I thought this forum was about Germanic Preservation, not only Germans in Germany Preservation.
There are Americans here who are serious about being Germanic and find it possible to reconcile that with an American identity. Others seek to reconnect with their ancestral ethnic group in a meaningful and earnest way.

Much of the rest, though, seems to be supportive of colour-coded globalism. That is not merely a naive pan-Germanicism pursued by people who still feel loyal to their respective nations, it is an outright abuse of Germanic identity to denote a (European) Europidism/Nordicism that accepts the destruction of Germanic cultures as desirable and necessary for the creation of a White blob in a globalised world.

I can only judge my own compatriots who hold such views, and to me that is treason against the German nation in the profoundest of ways.

Peoples Observer
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 12:01 AM
It looks like you can't read. I never said I don't accept allies. What I don't accept is Americans who want to be German but are obviously not. You fly the American flag. You're not volksdeutsch. I don't consider you German. Simple as that. I can accept you as my ally in a Germanic alliance, but you're a Germanic American, not a German.

I might not be a German citizen of the BRD (or in your case the DDR) :D

I'm German by Racial lineage, I speak German and I happen to be living abroad at this time. But still loyal to my ancestral homeland in Niedersachsen, Deutschland.

I don't fly the USA flag, but rather the Hakenkreuz flag.

If you want people to take you seriously why don't you drop that "National Communism" garbage and become a real German girl.

There is no place for any kind of Communist in the real Germany.


There are Americans here who are serious about being Germanic and find it possible to reconcile that with an American identity. Others seek to reconnect with their ancestral ethnic group in a meaningful and earnest way.

Much of the rest, though, seems to be supportive of colour-coded globalism. That is not merely a naive pan-Germanicism pursued by people who still feel loyal to their respective nations, it is an outright abuse of Germanic identity to denote a (European) Europidism/Nordicism that accepts the destruction of Germanic cultures as desirable and necessary for the creation of a White blob in a globalised world.

I can only judge my own compatriots who hold such views, and to me that is treason against the German nation in the profoundest of ways.



I can agree with your description above.

I don't want a "White Blob" either. Its important for Germans to keep their culture, French to keep their culture and Swedes to keep their culture, etc....

I don't support the American multi-culti mess and betrayal of Anglo-Germanic culture. If I did I sure as hell would not post on Skadi.

Its a good thing to keep allied with other like-minded Germanics in our common struggle.

Peoples Observer
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 01:03 AM
As far as Communisim and all the Scheiße being said about it, you are speaking from an American perspective, have you ever been to what was the Easternblock, those states? Well if you like Communism so much you can alwys join the KPD. :thumbdown

And I was in Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig 2 years after the re-unification of Germany. All of the German NS Nationalists I met HATE Communism !

I've marched with my German Comrades in Dresden to protest the American/British holocaust air attacks of that fine Saxon city.

Huginn ok Muninn
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 02:26 AM
Peoples Observer, I would ease up on criticising the former DDR residents a bit if I were you. I don't think any of them supports the kind of communism you suggest. Bärin has explained this elsewhere and she is no Trotskyist. I still disagree with communism, but what she has in mind does not pose too much danger to the German people. I don't know if it's workable, but her heart's in the right place. Ossi's avatar is a German patriot, nothing more. To call him "Ivan" is really low, and you owe him an apology.

Sigurd
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 04:35 AM
White Nationalists are traitors because there is no white nation, only a German nation.

Not to mention that the term "White" and even "European" is such an awfully broad one that there will be several matters, at least over here in Europe, which may be beneficial to one folk, but detrimental to another.

Americans often forget this, that different countries in Europe aren't different like Montana is from Colorado, but that there's actual different cultures amongst each ethnic nation, and that the Norwegian and the Italian, or the Spaniard and the Russian have very little to share.

"White unity" is not to be achieved that easily, also because there are conflicting interests between certain "white" nations, including unsettled territory disputes and continuous oppression of Germanics, especially Germans in the occupied territories.

America does not know this problem: The primary identification of many people has long been "White" to the extent that there has been more approximation between different "white" groups, and most certainly there are no unsettled geopolitical issues, let alone conflicting interests.

Americans alas often tend to forget this, we must not demonise them for this, how should they know better? But indeed, that is all provided that they don't claim to know better about matters they simply cannot know better because German-Americans and Polish-Americans don't have the same unsettled issues that Germans and Polish in Europe have. If they claim to know better, than that is actually pretty offensive.

So, yes, to sum it up, "white nationalism" is something that could technically - despite not preferable - work in America, but it is soemthing that certainly can't work in Europe. That'd be like saying that the only problem of the EU is its wrong political outlook, which obviously isn't quite true as the problem, as we all know is much deeper.

Jäger
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 09:43 AM
Laughing at the sillier demands and negotiating the rest might still have been possible though ...
The problem weren't the demands per se, it should just serve as proof that it certainly, and in no way, was about "friendship", and that Britain had its own, and only its own, interests in mind, which then translates to an inevitable destruction of this alliance, as soon as German and English interest would have clashed later in time, which, let alone due to geography, wouldn't have been that far in the future, maybe around 1914 :|.
The very idea of this alliance would have been to control the growth of Germany, and keep it small of course, after all, very much as the EU today.

Given such circumstances, an alliance with Japan was a good idea, since their interest would not have clashed with ours in the foreseeable future.


... but you really should be able to differentiate between those individuals who would come and be a part of Skadi in good faith and the American mass media which is run (as, unfortunately, is Germany's) by zionist jews.
I do not think I ever made a statement to imply hate to any member here, at worst, I find some members annoying :P


Before we speak as though we controlled our respective nations, don't you think we should work on that very program?
My point exactly, therefor the destruction of American influence is in order, with all means available.

Schneider
Wednesday, July 21st, 2010, 09:13 PM
It also happened in the USA, where German POWs were exterminated and German civilians were rounded up and placed in camps for merely being German. There were German witnesses who survived to tell the stories of the atrocities in the USA.
There was a POW camp here in Michigan in the 40's. The German POW's worked in the fields doing the farm work that would have been done by the American men. The Germans were given weekend passes and aloud to go into town. They often hitch hiked to get around and joined in the local community dances and social events.

The Japanese Americans are the ones we rounded up and placed in camps.

TSElliott
Sunday, July 25th, 2010, 01:12 AM
My Uncle served on the German side in WWII. There was a breach in our families after the war. I cannot trace his roots from what I know.

I am informed his father's family name was Esser; his mother's maiden name was Oriva - which he assumed after the war; that he was a POW, was granted U.S. citizenship and was permitted to immigrate to California where he died in the 1970's.

My apologies if this should be posted elsewhere.

Just wondering if these sketchy facts ring any bells for anyone!

Thank you.

SpearBrave
Sunday, July 25th, 2010, 01:20 AM
There was a POW camp here in Michigan in the 40's. The German POW's worked in the fields doing the farm work that would have been done by the American men. The Germans were given weekend passes and aloud to go into town. They often hitch hiked to get around and joined in the local community dances and social events.

The Japanese Americans are the ones we rounded up and placed in camps.


German Americans were also rounded up and placed in camps. Some were not immigrants but third and fourth generation.:-O

http://www.foitimes.com/ (http://www.foitimes.com/)

There were many pro NSDAP Americans before the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund

or here is the official web page if any are interested in joining.;)

http://www.germanamericanbund.org/