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Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 12:39 AM
These two are supposed to be together, eh? What is so remarkable about their connection? I only know that they have emotional difficulties, especially with alcohol.

symmakhos
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:55 AM
I've never heard that the Irish and the Swedes would be "connected" in any way. Says who?

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Can't say I've heard of that either. What is your source?
As for emotional difficulties - of what kind?
Alcoholism? Actually the statistics show Ireland drinks less per capita than nations like France and Italy. Not sure about Sweden but I imagine it's the same story.

Saying all Irish or Swedes are alcoholics is like saying all Americans wear stetsons and fire pistols randomly into the air, or all Russians wear furry hats and do Cossak dancing all day.

Stereotypes can be amusing, but they are an inaccurate exagerration at best.

RusViking
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 11:41 AM
The only connection I have made is genetic.....UP population via YSTR.org database. Seems that the Dal area (Uppland, Roslagen) of Sweden, Basques in Spain and some other specific areas in Europe (Western France and Croatia) have this very specific UP haplotype. The Irish are genetically similiar to the Basques and thus the connection to Sweden.

PS. I don't wear a Stetsen but I have been known to randomly fire weapons into the air....;)

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:19 PM
The only connection I have made is genetic.....UP population via YSTR.org database. Seems that the Dal area (Uppland, Roslagen) of Sweden, Basques in Spain and some other specific areas in Europe (Western France and Croatia) have this very specific UP haplotype. The Irish are genetically similiar to the Basques and thus the connection to Sweden.

PS. I don't wear a Stetsen but I have been known to randomly fire weapons into the air....;)
Is this a Brunn UP? Please describe in detail. :)

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:30 PM
I believe Rusviking refers to a haplotype, rather than a phenotype.
Actually, these areas share a similar and possibly related phenotype (although they are not identical).

Paleoatlantid in Britain & Ireland, Berid among the Basques and Tydal in Scandinavia.

This genetic similarity shows them to be likely descandants of the earliest modern human hunter-gatherers, they are sometimes known as Old Europeans

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:48 PM
I knew there was a connection between those areas. Now, what is it linking them by appearance? What do they look like as opposed to others in their area?

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 03:23 PM
Well, if I remember correctly they tend to show archaic features and seem to be derived from Cro-Magnid types. They are generally short or of medium height, robust as opposed to gracile and generally brunette and usually with dark or dark-mixed eyes. PA's tend to have very fair skin as well, which is usually taken to be a UP trait. I'm not sure about the other two.

Tydals sometimes show a pseudo-mongolid look and some have theorised they have mixed with Lapps or some others.
I would imagine Berids from Iberia would likely have slightly darker skin than the others. No doubt there has been some degree of mixing with other types in their surrounding enviroments, but they are all derived from an Old Atlantic type

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Do you know where I can find a pic of a Tydal? I might have that in my mixture.

What's the difference between the phenotype level vs haplotype?

RusViking, are you absolutely sure of your ancestry? I found that my forefathers are from Roslagen, but without a genetic classification system, just historical studies, geographical references and personal records of my clan's expansion from Uppland to Northumberland. I am graced with a saga reference to my home. It is so funny that my forefathers came to RHODE ISLAND as well. :lol

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 03:57 PM
Here are some pics of a woman deemed to be Tydal
I think you can see Lappish traits which may be suggestive of inter-breeding with them. You don't tend to see this in British PA's and especially not in Berids from Spain :

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/rastyper7.jpg

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/rastyper8.jpg


Haplotypes relate to genetics, while Phenotype relates to outward appearance. Phenotype is obviously related to genetics, but they are not necessarily convergent with a person's haplotypes.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Um, then why does it appear that haplotypes are a pre-phenotype issue?

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 04:04 PM
An Irish girl I consider to be a good example of a Paleoatlantid

http://www.andreacorr.cjb.net/



Um, then why does it appear that haplotypes are a pre-phenotype issue?

What do you mean?

Angelcynn Beorn
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 07:34 PM
I still dont get the Irish-Swedish connection you're talking about. Paleo-Atlantids (under their various names) are peppered throughout Northern Europe and the Mediteranean.

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 07:42 PM
You sure you are talking about Paleoatlantids?
They are usually found along the western seaboard (Iberian peninsula, British Isles and Ireland, western coast of Norway,etc)

But yeah, it's not that great a connection, it's all I could think of though :)

Angelcynn Beorn
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Indeed i was talking of paleo-atlantids, although saying they are peppered throughout Northern Europe may have been an overstatement. As you said, they are found in the British isles, Norway and Denmark with reasonable frequency.

My question was aimed primarily at Rodskarl, so i dont really expect you to be able to answer questions about his posts. ;)

Cheers

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Actually, I think I meant that how was it that there could be Brunn AND Tydal in Scandinavia before agriculture?

Or Brunn AND Atlantid in the Isles before agriculture?

Or?

RusViking
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 02:07 AM
Is this a Brunn UP? Please describe in detail. :)
My brother and I have been classified here in the racial classification forum as Brunn UP. Robust Nordid so to speak.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 02:12 AM
Considering the fact that both Ireland and Sweden have people whose genes were longer without the fermentation of alcoholic beverages until more recently in prehistory, it might make sense for them to have such problems.

RusViking
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 02:20 AM
Do you know where I can find a pic of a Tydal? I might have that in my mixture.

What's the difference between the phenotype level vs haplotype?

RusViking, are you absolutely sure of your ancestry? I found that my forefathers are from Roslagen, but without a genetic classification system, just historical studies, geographical references and personal records of my clan's expansion from Uppland to Northumberland. I am graced with a saga reference to my home. It is so funny that my forefathers came to RHODE ISLAND as well. :lol
I would not rely on pictures too much. The haplotype and population data however is definitive - as far as we know now....everything is changing in this new science. UP seems to be always mixed with the locals so the look would change. I am sure there is a difference in phenotype dependent on the geographical area.

I am not absolutely sure about my origins but I hazard a good guess, based on a variety of data sources.

I would like to hear of the saga source.

However, if you have the specific haplotype I have, your origins are definitely UP.... old European....could be now Basque, Irish, Canary Islands' Gaunches (original aborigines), Roslagen/Uppland, Croatia, Western France and other places yet to be discovered. I think there is a Neanderthal connection also.

My website at www.clanrossi.com (http://www.clanrossi.com) will give you my take on the whole thing. Follow Rick's haplotype for info on UP Brunn, and a picture from Coon out of Gotland, Sweden exemplifying the Brunn type.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 03:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furby Uppland, Roslagen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firby Northumberland, Danelaw

Milesian
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 04:34 AM
Considering the fact that both Ireland and Sweden have people whose genes were longer without the fermentation of alcoholic beverages until more recently in prehistory, it might make sense for them to have such problems.

The Irish aren't particulary prone to alcoholism anymore than other peoples, usually it is judged on Irish emigrants - emigrants usually have sorrows to drown. Anyway, drink problems might be better off blamed on the weather. :D

BTW, Paleotlantid/Brunn doesn't = Tronder, Mr Dark-Foreigner ;)

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 04:56 AM
The Irish aren't particulary prone to alcoholism anymore than other peoples, usually it is judged on Irish emigrants - emigrants usually have sorrows to drown. Anyway, drink problems might be better off blamed on the weather. :D

BTW, Paleotlantid/Brunn doesn't = Tronder, Mr Dark-Foreigner ;)Why did you call me P-A/Brunn? I did not say I was. I believe Dubh=Deep(colour) Gall=Wall(what can I say?)

(Rodskarl means oarsman/mariner/seaman)

Milesian
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 12:30 PM
Why did you call me P-A/Brunn? I did not say I was. I believe Dubh=Deep(colour) Gall=Wall(what can I say?)

(Rodskarl means oarsman/mariner/seaman)

Sorry, I mean Tydal/Brunn doesn't = Tronder (from your profile) :)

Where did you get the word Dubhgall from? It looks Irish to me, in which case it translates as Dubh = Black or Dark, Gall = foreigner

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Sorry, I mean Tydal/Brunn doesn't = Tronder (from your profile) :)

Where did you get the word Dubhgall from? It looks Irish to me, in which case it translates as Dubh = Black or Dark, Gall = foreigner About the Tydal/Troender thing. The phenotype has come off Troender and this Tydal haplotype seems to come out prominently in my father's line but it doesn't seem Mongolic at all. It has a lighter colouration and larger build obviously. Secondly in my family(mostly women) have Anglo-Saxon, although there is now a smaller percentage of Keltic more recently since Americanisation(although they aren't Alpine or Dinaric but Atlantid).

I have noticed that phenotype is related to how we interact in society along with our culture, but haplotype is more personal behaviour and experiences. (All my people right here, right now, do you know what I mean, yeah-yeah?)

I know about the name, but since I am not so dark, I figured to transliterate those words. I'm pretty imaginative:

Dubh=gives rise to names like Duff? You can also read into it; 'I "dub" thee, sir'.
Gall=is this derived from Gaul? (Gallic). Foreigners live beyond "walls", like the name Wales.

Anyways, I changed the name Russell Douglas to be Rodskarl Dubhgall(Irish term for the Danes)

Tore
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 03:43 AM
but haplotype is more personal behaviour and experiences.

One's haplotype is determined by the genetic sequence found on their Y-Chromosome or in their mtDNA, and bears no influence on one's personal behaviour or experiences.

The genetic sequence determining one's haplotype is unrelated to the genes which code for behavioural and cognitive traits, and the two share no concordant relation by any means (at least not an instrinsic one).

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 03:59 AM
One's haplotype is determined by the genetic sequence found on their Y-Chromosome or in their mtDNA, and bears no influence on one's personal behaviour or experiences.

The genetic sequence determining one's haplotype is unrelated to the genes which code for behavioural and cognitive traits, and the two share no concordant relation by any means (at least not an instrinsic one).Thank you for the nice information!

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Monday, June 4th, 2018, 12:31 AM
There's an Ireland haplogroup and a Gotland haplogroup, there's Bruenn and Borreby, Kelt and Hallstatt, Celtic and Germanic. Somehow, these two regions are Nordish and isolated, but how we came to the conclusion that there's a stratum... I am curious.