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View Full Version : Tribal Founders and Their Placenames!



Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, May 20th, 2004, 01:04 PM
Njord/Nerthus=Norge, Normandie
Ing/Angel=Angeln, England
Freyr/Frigg=Fryslan, France
Saxnot=Sachsen, Wessex
Odin/God=Goetaland, Jylland
Donar/Thor=Danmark, Thueringen
Tyr=Deutschland

Feel free to provide your take on this and your own discoveries.

Zuid-Vlaming
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 09:19 PM
Freyr/Frigg=Fryslan, France
France from Freyr or Frigg ?

No, France comes from the root frank, name of the tribe of the Franks (frank meaning "free") = Frank-reich, Frank-rijk...

[The Frankish kings (those before Clovis/Hlodweg the traitor :D ) said themselves to be descendants from Wotan. So he would be the tribal founder.]

And Normandie comes from North-manni, the Northmen... the nor- has nothing to do with Njord or Nerthus, but just mean nord, north...

NormanBlood
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 09:31 PM
Actually, the word "frank" specifically referred to the throwing lance most common to the Franks ;) The two meanings are sometimes confused..but thats what the Franks were named after :P


said themselves to be descendants from Wotan. So he would be the tribal founder.]

that they did :P

And yes, Norman means "northman"..just what they generally called the Vikings whether they were from Norway or not. The frisians were however the "children of Freyr".

Zuid-Vlaming
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 10:11 PM
Actually, the word "frank" specifically referred to the throwing lance most common to the Franks ;) The two meanings are sometimes confused..but thats what the Franks were named after :P
No-no-no, I am dead sure of what I say, Mademoiselle !

And what is this abracadabrantesque tale with a "lance" ? The common throwing weapons that the Franks were supposed to have were throwing axes, the famous Francisque. Every "Age of Kings" player will tell it :D .
But that's the "Francii" who gave their name to the weapon, and not the contrary. I will stand good on this point, for I know I tell The Truth. My right fist to be cut if I lie ! ;)



that they did :P Do you mean that my glorious ancestors were liars ? :-O
Shocking !
Oh, well... If I'm not descendant of the Great God by this side of my genealogy, I will find consolation in another branch of the family tree, with "Grompa" Creoda, king of Mercia, by whom I am supposed to descend of Woden...

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 10:19 PM
What is up with Odin??? AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! :P

Odin Of Ossetia
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 11:49 PM
Actually, the word "frank" specifically referred to the throwing lance most common to the Franks ;) The two meanings are sometimes confused..but thats what the Franks were named after :P



that they did :P

And yes, Norman means "northman"..just what they generally called the Vikings whether they were from Norway or not. The frisians were however the "children of Freyr".



No, Frisians are named after Friso, a legendary Indo-Aryan prince from the north-west of the Indian subcontinent, who reached the Mediterranean coast, abandoned Alexander the Great (his protege), and sailed with his people to what is now known as Frisia.


I also read that the Saxons were descended from the Iranian Sakas, and that the Franks might have been of Iranian origin as well, but I do not know the details of this.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 12:00 AM
F*ck off! You and others like you always try to make the Europeans be your bitch, like the Afrocentricism which claimed all inventions were of their design. Go away slave!

NormanBlood
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 12:47 AM
And what is this abracadabrantesque tale with a "lance" ?

nope...quite sure it was the throwing lance which they were known for. I've read it quite a few places ;)


Do you mean that my glorious ancestors were liars ?

If you are Burgundian then your ancestors were not the Franks :P they were the...BURGUNDIANS! ;) I probably got more Frankish than a Burgundian :D



No, Frisians are named after Friso, a legendary Indo-Aryan prince from the north-west of the Indian subcontinent, who reached the Mediterranean coast, abandoned Alexander the Great (his protege), and sailed with his people to what is now known as Frisia.


I also read that the Saxons were descended from the Iranian Sakas, and that the Franks might have been of Iranian origin as well, but I do not know the details of this.

I'm not even gonna bother with that crap :| I hate people who try to link us to the middle east.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 12:52 AM
nope...quite sure it was the throwing lance which they were known for. I've read it quite a few places ;) Well, whatever, it means free today. Would St. Francis of Assisi be known as a weapon of God?


If you are Burgundian then your ancestors were not the Franks :P they were the...BURGUNDIANS! ;) I probably got more Frankish than a Burgundian :D Burgunders are from Bornholm.


I'm not even gonna bother with that crap :| I hate people who try to link us to the middle east. Aye!

Zuid-Vlaming
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 11:11 AM
nope...quite sure it was the throwing lance which they were known for. I've read it quite a few places ;) I would be delighted that you gave me your sources ;)
It is very probable that they used lances among other weapons, but they were more fond of axes and swords like sacramasax, and I never heard that theywere named after a lance. What was the name of this famous lance if so ? It would have been a name in fran- something...




If you are Burgundian then your ancestors were not the Franks :P they were the...BURGUNDIANS! ;) I probably got more Frankish than a Burgundian :D In fact, I am not Burgundian...
I explained why I used the word "Bourguignon" in my profile : http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=126407


By blood I really am a guy from northern France. All my ancestors are from Artois, Boulonnais or Flanders. I am from "Artegau"* bei Blut und Boden... :D
And this is surely the most frankish region of all France, it is one of the rare regions where there was a true frankish colonisation (and there was also Saxons' settlements on the Boulonnais' shores, and Frisians in the plain of Flanders). You should see all this placenames in -hem, -inghem, or -thun near my town... (I will surely try one day to draw a map with germanic toponyms in my region.)

The first "Frankrijk" properly to say, was centered around Tournai (Doornik), which is located less than 100 kms from my home.

(And by the way I have attested Frankish ascendance, in my family tree I trace back to Charlemagne, and it's not after guesses, but after official genealogy.)


* Artegau = name for Artois in deutsch. In vlaams it is Artesië, or Artezië.

NormanBlood
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 07:31 PM
I would be delighted that you gave me your sources
It is very probable that they used lances among other weapons, but they were more fond of axes and swords like sacramasax, and I never heard that theywere named after a lance. What was the name of this famous lance if so ? It would have been a name in fran- something...

Actually, the axe (as well as the seax :D ) was most popular among the Saxons. In fact most Germanics of that time probably would have been using these throwing spears (I just looked it up in Germania..the correct word is javelin :P ) this you can see written by Tacitus. In fact he says "swords they used rarely" ;)


Neither in truth do they abound in iron, as from the fashion of their weapons may be gathered. Swords they rarely use, or the larger spear. They carry javelins or, in their own language, framms, pointed with a piece of iron short and narrow, but so sharp and manageable, that with the same weapon they can fight at a distance or hand to hand, just as need requires. Nay, the horsemen also are content with a shield and a javelin. The foot throw likewise weapons missive, each particular is armed with many, and hurls them a mighty space, all naked or only wearing a light cassock. In their equipment they show no ostentation; only that their shields are diversified and adorned with curious colours. With coats of mail very few are furnished, and hardly upon any is seen a head-piece or helmet.

In Germania he says they are called "framms"(but here he speaks of the Germans of Germania as a whole..not of specific tribes), but I have read other sources when speaking directly of the Franks during their invasion of northern Gaul saying they used the "javelins from which they were named"..or some such.


(I will surely try one day to draw a map with germanic toponyms in my region.)

Yes, it is amazing even in Normandy there are many toponyms from Old Norse and Frankish..that were originally in those languages but later on "translated" to French. For example anything that ends in bec (Québec!!) is from the ON "bekkr". In fact Renaud, I believe, made mention that most of the place names that end in "ville" in northern France are of Frankish origin..because that would how they named places in Old Frankish.


(And by the way I have attested Frankish ascendance, in my family tree I trace back to Charlemagne, and it's not after guesses, but after official genealogy.)

Very cool ;) I love geneology. My last name, so I have recently discovred, is of Frankish origin(not latinicised at all) but I have also read that when the Normans came to Normandy we took many Frankish surnames instead of the latinicised ones (though some Normans did take modified surnames based on Old Norse)

Shapur
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 08:01 PM
I'm not even gonna bother with that crap :| I hate people who try to link us to the middle east.And I hate it when people link us Aryans to non-Aryans! :D
By the way Germans have as the the only German tribe many many real Aryan blood.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13683

The name of the Saxons "Ben a Sächse!" come from the Sakas"Iranians".
This is correct. :D

Zuid-Vlaming
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 09:17 PM
NormanBlood, you have surprised me, I had never heard about those framms before. And well, this hypothesis for the naming of the Franks is not the worst I've heard.

But still, anyway, I am persuaded that the franks were named after their own word for "free", that is frank. It is the commonly admitted hypothesis, the official one. It's what I found in every history books about Franks, and in every encyclopedias. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks


For the weaponry, it depends of the period I think.

Here is what I could find in Wikipedia (in french, but I assume you read it :D )
L'armement [des francs] proprement dit, quant à lui, est varié et change peu au cours de la période mérovingienne. Ainsi, vers le VIIe siècle (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIIe_si%C3%A8cle), il comprend la hache de combat, la lance, l'épée - soit symétrique à deux tranchants (la spatha), soit courte (la semispatha), ou encore à un seul tranchant (le sax ou scramasaxe). Dans une moindre mesure, l'arc et les flèches sont attestés dans de nombreuses tombes, ce dernier étant en forme de « D ». Ma source : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armement_m%C3%A9di%C3%A9val

And under the Carolingians, the Franks made great use of swords, and the "Frankish sword" was famed to be one of the best weapons of the time. (just remember Durandal, Roland' sword that had cut a big rock in two !!! :D )




Edit : Oh, yes, I had nearly forgotten : Here are two links that you should find interesting. As we were talking of toponymy, it reminded me of this quite good website about origins of placenames :
http://crehangec.free.fr/norm.htm (I linked the page about Normandy)

And this one about meaning of norman/frankish names and firstnames : http://membres.lycos.fr/hagdik/noms_nordiques.html

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 12:20 AM
And I hate it when people link us Aryans to non-Aryans! :D
By the way Germans have as the the only German tribe many many real Aryan blood.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13683

The name of the Saxons "Ben a Sächse!" come from the Sakas"Iranians".
This is correct. :D
You are just looking for trouble. High tail it out of here jackass!

NormanBlood
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 04:49 AM
But still, anyway, I am persuaded that the franks were named after their own word for "free", that is frank. It is the commonly admitted hypothesis, the official one. It's what I found in every history books about Franks, and in every encyclopedias.

Yes, like I mentioned I know this hypothesis and have also read it. It could have also been a word to have a "dual" meaning...who knows, but as you say your hypothesis is the most "well known", I just personally have more faith in the one I've read about :P Have you read the Salian Frankish Laws? (of course latinisised as the original Franks, as all Germanics, would not have used money :P ), but at some points in this document the word "Freeman" is used while at other points Frank..it seems, in my eyes anyways, to be a distinguishment. Its all very intersting though.


For the weaponry, it depends of the period I think.

Yes, I most definetly agree. As you know, my source, Tacitus's Germania, was speaking of prior to the Frankish invasion of Gaul which I will use to lead into my next response to you.


And under the Carolingians, the Franks made great use of swords, and the "Frankish sword" was famed to be one of the best weapons of the time. (just remember Durandal, Roland' sword that had cut a big rock in two !!! )

Yes, this under the Carolingians, which is much later on than my source. The "famed Frankish swords" were not so "famed" or "in use" at the time..as mentioned it was the javelins. And it is documented that even with the Frankish invasion into Armorica the Gauls knew them for using their "franks"(as I have read) or javelins..this was something that apparently stood out.

Haha, I have a replica dagger of Roland's Durandal :D Its very nice!

Thank you for the links! I will check them out right now! Do you read any of Jean Mabire's books by the way?

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 04:54 AM
The Franks must have used their swords after they gained control of France from the post Roman occupiers.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 06:27 AM
Perhaps Frank is from Frammic?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 06:36 AM
My understanding is that the word "Frank" references the weapon favored or known in association with the Franks, the spear. Saxon is Saxe-man. A Saxe is a three foot long backed blade which was used primarily for slashing and cutting chain mail. It was heavy. Imagine a meat cleaver which is three feet long and that is the basic idea. I have no internet references, this is something I read a long time ago.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 06:44 AM
My understanding is that the word "Frank" references the weapon favored or known in association with the Franks, the spear. Saxon is Saxe-man. A Saxe is a three foot long backed blade which was used primarily for slashing and cutting chain mail. It was heavy. Imagine a meat cleaver which is three feet long and that is the basic idea. I have no internet references, this is something I read a long time ago.
Ouch!:-O

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 06:47 AM
France from Freyr or Frigg ?

No, France comes from the root frank, name of the tribe of the Franks (frank meaning "free") = Frank-reich, Frank-rijk...

[The Frankish kings (those before Clovis/Hlodweg the traitor :D ) said themselves to be descendants from Wotan. So he would be the tribal founder.]

And Normandie comes from North-manni, the Northmen... the nor- has nothing to do with Njord or Nerthus, but just mean nord, north...
Njord is the personification of the North.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 07:38 AM
Maybe Sax and Frank are posessive of the same terminal distinction? sea(x/ks)? fran(ks)? The 2 letters m/n have been widely interchanged.

Theudanaz
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 10:25 AM
Rodskarl, no offense but your etymologies are specious at best and perhaps in reality very ridiculous. Honestly and positively I encourage you to read some linguistic books, and maybe an intro to indo-european linguistics, as well as some on more specific Germanic languages.

*Nerthuz (from Tacitus) could not be related to *north- except by ablaut gradation; you would have to show me a believable etymological connection here, as for the others. Odin is from PN *Wodanz, prob. related to wod- 'mad', prob. not from an earlier stage (if so, it would be *Wodenaz). Franc- is commonly known to be from OFr. franka- a type of throwing axe, perhaps (debatably) deriv. of Tacitus' "framea" (?= *framijaz 'pusher' or 'performer'). Though placenames abound bearing references to Odin and other gods in localities, such large areas and provinces do not. Teuton- has a much debated origin, ranging from celtic tribal name to more commonly held notion of *Theuda "people, nation as a whole", as you can see much different from Gmc. *Tiwaz, PIE *dyeu-o-s. Deutsch/(land) is a comparatively recent term in its meaning.

You might be more successful to argue for Burgundians coming from Bornholm or Goths from Gotland (though neither is supported too widely now).

Please, do not, whatever you do, do not start talking about the lost tribe of Dan of Israel founding the Danaan Greeks and Denmark. I would have to hurt myself badly if it were true!


-Thiudans

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Rodskarl, no offense but your etymologies are specious at best and perhaps in reality very ridiculous.

Please, do not, whatever you do, do not start talking about the lost tribe of Dan of Israel founding the Danaan Greeks and Denmark. I would have to hurt myself badly if it were true!

-Thiudans
Well, now if I did that, you might have a real reason to disagree with my statements.

Zuid-Vlaming
Friday, June 4th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Do you read any of Jean Mabire's books by the way?
Yes, some : I've read La Division Charlemagne (Sur le front de l'est, 1944-1945), Mourir à Berlin (Les français, derniers défenseurs du Bunker d'Adolf Hitler), Légion Wallonie (Au front de l'est, 1941-1944) and Division Nordland (Dans l'hiver glacé, devant Leningrad).

Very good war stories. Mabire is indeed a great writer and impassioning storyteller, as well as a very intelligent historian.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Sunday, June 3rd, 2018, 04:52 PM
Anybody else notice or believe in divine founders as namesakes of blood and soil?

Uwe Jens Lornsen
Sunday, June 3rd, 2018, 06:57 PM
I think so, too.

For the label 'Deutschland' the french words 'Dieu' and even 'Diabolo' might be
namesakes, too :
Dieu's Land God's Land
As it is in 'Heilige Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation'
as 'Holy Roman Empire of Dieu's Nation' in an attempt to incorporate
the many conquered tribes into a God's Nation, without
giving psychological preference to the winning tribe.


----

'Sachs' might be referring to 'Flachs' :
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linum
Because 'Sachsband' is commonly used on farms to
bind straw and hay blocks :
http://www.pfadfinder-treffpunkt.de/include.php?path=forum/showthread.php&threadid=9174
Before using 'Sisal' , such ropes might have been made from 'Flax' .

Even the New Testament has Saulus (Taurus, Herodes) being ward of the clothing chamber,
becomming Paulus (Aries, Pontius Pilatus) by Precession;
so clothing might be important for creating names of areas, too.


And then there is the name 'Saß' (Sass, Sasz) meaning inhabitant or even settler .
Some wild animal's resting places are named 'Sasse' in the hunter language.

Uwe Jens Lornsen
Sunday, June 3rd, 2018, 09:07 PM
For 'Danmark' or 'Denmark' :

'Mark' describes a 'Field' or 'Acker' (Acre) .

'Tan' sounds similar as 'Dan' and might be related to 'Tanner' :


Traditionally, tanning used tannin,
an acidic chemical compound from which the tanning process draws
its name (tannin is in turn named after an old German word for oak or fir trees, from which the compound was derived).

From en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning_(leather)

'Oak' in German language is 'Eiche' ;
and in Danish language
da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eg

The German word 'Tanne' is the English christmas tree 'Fir' it seems : en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir

And 'Tanne' in Danish language would be :
da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ædelgran-slægten

Therfore it is possible, that it had been a 'Granfield' once,
because of light 'Geest' soil,
then renamed 'Danacre' by whatever reason.

'Grannen' in German language are
de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granne the English en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awn_(botany)
which resemble needles and lances.

'Ahn' (Ahnen) in German language means 'Ancestors' in English tongue.