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Stephen
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 03:23 PM
Check out this table:
EU18 haplotype [indo european]

Hungary 60
Poland 56.4
Ukraine 54
Bielorussia isnt on the list, but I guess the highest is there.

This means that the most pure Indo European people are the Hungarians now?
They are leading the list with a 60% EU18 marker.
[The EU18 gene is the indo european marker.]

Also I dont get this:
EU7 Haplotype

Croatian 44.8
Saami [Lapp] 41.7
German 37.5
Polish 23.6
Dutch 22.2

How could this be??? Croatians, Germans and Lapps got "almost" the same EU7 marker?
What do you think about this?

Stephen
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 03:27 PM
The full table about the haplotypes can be found here:

http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/

Awar
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Nope, the 'IE' marker is Eu19.

Stephen
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 04:40 PM
Oh god damn sorry, I meant the EU19 marker of course. :)

So here is the corrected post:

EU19 haplotype [indo european]

Hungary 60
Poland 56.4
Ukraine 54
Bielorussia isnt on the list, but I guess the highest is there.

White Preservationist
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 05:20 PM
This means that the most pure Indo European people are the Hungarians now?



That is about correct.

Eastern europeans are the purest indo-europeans.

Scandinavians and nordics have comperatively little indo-european ancestry.

White Preservationist
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 05:30 PM
"Analyses of mtDNA sequence variation in European populations have been conducted (6 (http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/#RF6), 20 (http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/#RF20)). These data suggest that the gene pool has ~80% Paleolithic and ~20% Neolithic ancestry. Our data support this observation because haplotypes Eu4, Eu9, Eu10, and Eu11 account for ~22% of European Y chromosomes."



- http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Nope, the 'IE' marker is Eu19.

Noone knows where Indo-European was spoken the first, so you can't identify who spoke the first Indo-European languages, by genetics.

Awar
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Noone knows where Indo-European was spoken the first, so you can't identify who spoke the first Indo-European languages, by genetics.

Sure, I was just pointing out that in the studies where it IS associated with any gene marker, it's associated with Eu19, not 18.

I do however believe that the IE was spread with the Eu19 people, but that it originated somewhere else.

Personally I think IE originated in the Balkans, and then slowly spread to southern Russia from where it caught on to the 'right crowd' who quickly dispersed IE all around Europe and Asia.

Stephen
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 07:14 PM
That is about correct.

Eastern europeans are the purest indo-europeans.

Scandinavians and nordics have comperatively little indo-european ancestry.

This is very interesting, since the Hungarian language is Finno-Ugric and it is not an indo european language, it is something very unique.
Still they are the purest indo europeans by blood.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Sure, I was just pointing out that in the studies where it IS associated with any gene marker, it's associated with Eu19, not 18.

I do however believe that the IE was spread with the Eu19 people, but that it originated somewhere else.

Personally I think IE originated in the Balkans, and then slowly spread to southern Russia from where it caught on to the 'right crowd' who quickly dispersed IE all around Europe and Asia.


Indo-European could have originated in the Balkans, because this makes perfect sense. I think most people agree that it had to be somewhere around the Black Sea regions. because Anatolian is in Asia Minor.

After the seperation of Indo-Iranian, I would think Indo-European languages were spread by a northern people, after they got them through assimilating immigrants of a Neolithic Black Sea racial type.

Stephen
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 07:58 PM
I dont understand the EU7 haplotype. How come that Croatians and Lapps have almost the same amount of the EU7 marker -> 44.8 & 41.7.
[Germans are 3rd with the 37.5]

What is this EU7 haplotype? Also the Saami [Lapps] people are mongoloid. I am very confused!

Awar
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 11:21 PM
This is very interesting, since the Hungarian language is Finno-Ugric and it is not an indo european language, it is something very unique.
Still they are the purest indo europeans by blood.

This is because Hungarians are predominantly Slavs who adopted the language. It actually happens most of the time... a people becomes conquered and adopts the language and the name of the conqueror, and soon the conqueror becomes assimilated into the much larger host population.

norda
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 08:56 AM
This is because Hungarians are predominantly Slavs who adopted the language. It actually happens most of the time... a people becomes conquered and adopts the language and the name of the conqueror, and soon the conqueror becomes assimilated into the much larger host population.
There is also other study which show significantly smaller Eu19 frequency among Hungarians.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v67n6/002082/002082.tb1.html
http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/#RF20
It would be interesting to see some other studies too.

Stephen
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 10:19 AM
This link of yours is very interesting. What is the HG Frequency Data?
Becase nr3:
Estonian 56
Polish 61
Hungarian 8!!!
Bielorussian 16!!!!!!
Norwegian 16!!!!!!!!!

This cant be the EU19 haplotype marker. Impossible. It is well known that the highest amount of the indo european genes can be found in the Bielorussians. It is even higher than in Hungary on the haplotype table if I am correct.


Oh and any comments about the EU7 marker in the German - Croat - Saami population?

Stephen
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 10:32 AM
One more question regarding to that site:

What is the second value in the ()?
Example:

28 (31)
41 (25)

norda
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 10:47 AM
One more question regarding to that site:

What is the second value in the ()?
Example:

28 (31)
41 (25)
This is percentage. Its mentioned in the table... [NO. (%) OF INDIVIDUALS WITH HG]

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 10:56 AM
I'd really love to see someone do total mapping of DNA in the entire Europe, so that would shut some people up :D

Graeme
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 11:55 AM
Those markers may give some hint about one's ancestry, but they don't indicate racial or sub racial phenotypes.

Stephen
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:37 PM
This is very interesting you were right.

I am not even sure that the 2 tables are inspecting the same thing.

Frequencies (in percent) of the haplotypes found in the examined European populations:

EU19 haplotype marker:
Bielorussian - >60% [This is not on the list but I am sure in this]
Hungarian - 60%
Polish - 56.4%
Ukrainian - 54%


European Y-Chromosome Diversity:

Row3 [??]
Bielorussian - 39%
Hungarian - 22%
Polish - 54%
Ukrainian - 30%
Norwegian - 31%!!

In this second table @ row 3 = EU19 haplotype marker?
It is not possible imho. Not just because of the huge difference between the tables, but its a fact the highest amount of the EU19 haplotype marker can be found in White Russia & Ukraine. [Bielorussia.] Also it is not possible that there the the Norwegian's got a higher EU19 haplotype %, than the Ukrainians or the Hungarians.

Stephen
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 05:39 PM
Just found an interesting writing! :

Haplogroup 3 (Hg3) Generalized Overview:
The definition of Hg3 (Eu19) is NTGCATGGG-AA [The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) renamed Hg3 as R1a (2002)].

The Hg3 (Eu19) in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Indian Uttar Pradesh 58%, Pakistani Kashmiri 58%, Polish 54%, Pakistani Sindhi 49%, Russian 47%, Slovakian 47%, Pakistani Balti 46%, Pakistani Pathan 45%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars 44%, Latvian 41%, Belorussian 39%, Pakistani Brahui 39%, Czech 38%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 37%, Slovenian 37%, Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 36%, Lithuanian 34%, Norwegian 31%, German 30%, Pakistani Makrani Negroid 30%, Ukranian 30%, Mari 29%, Pakistani Baluch 29%, Pakistani Burusho 28%, Pakistani Makrani Baluch 28%, Estonian 27%, Hungarian 22%, Icelandic 21%, Saami 21%, Romanian 20%, Northern Swedish 19%, Pakistani Kalash 19%, Chuvash 18%, Gotlander 16%, Yugoslavian 16%, Bavarian 15%, Ashkenazi Jews 13%, Dutch 13%, Bulgarian 12%, Muslim Kurds 12%, Finnish 10%, Bedouin 9%, East Anglian 9%, Greek 8%, Pakistani Parsi 8%, Danish 7%, Scottish 7%, Western Scottish 7%, Armenian 6%, Georgian 6%, French 5%, Turkish 5%, Belgian 4%, Kurdish Jews 4%, Sephardic Jews 4%, Cypriot 2%, Italian 2%, Ossetian 2%, Southern Portugese 2%, Spanish 2%, Irish 1%, Palestinian Arabs 1%

"The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" by Ornella Semino et al. (http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/) presents a frequency chart by populations for various haplotypes. The Eu19 in descending frequency order by percentages follows: Hungarian 60%, Polish 56.4%, Ukrainian 54%, Udmurt 37.2%, Macedonian 35%, Croatian 29.3%, Czech and Slovakian 26.4%, Mari 13%, Greek 11.8%, Syrian 10%, Albanian 9.8%, Lebanese 9.7%, Saami 8.3%, Georgian 7.9%, Turkish 6.6%, German 6.2%, Italian 4%, Dutch 3.7%.

Semino’s study concludes that two lineages have been present in Europe since Paleolithic times. One of these is characterized as M173. Eu19 derives from this lineage. M173 is described as "an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago, spreading the Aurignac culture. This group appeared almost simultaneously in Siberia, from which groups eventually migrated to the Americas." The Aurignac settlement in Europe predates the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).

The Eu19 Paleolithic population group retreated into the Ukrainian Ice Age Refuge during the glacial period (20,000 to 13,000 years ago). After the Ice Age they moved out of the refuge and expanded rapidly from the Ukraine. Subsequent transmigrations may have resulted in elements of this group returning to that area from Central Asia. "Haplotype Eu19 has also been observed at substantial frequency in northern India and Pakistan as well as in Central Asia. Its spread may have been magnified by the expansion of the Yamnaia culture from the ‘Kurgan culture’ area (present-day southern Ukraine) into Europe and eastward, resulting in the spread of Indo-European language."

The Haplogroup Hg3 is seen more frequently on the eastern side of Europe. It is also common in Scandinavia, and is said by some to be indicative of "Viking blood" when seen in paternal lines originating in the British Isles.

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 06:06 PM
This is the 100th time I post this map, I hope you don't mind:
http://i.1asphost.com/berschneider/Haplogroups.jpg

Stephen
Wednesday, May 19th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Another good link:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf