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gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 12:44 AM
http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/nordgirhnose.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/NSRZS8SULJHW.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/NURLSSEGRbSLT.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/NEK8HUBVBCGC.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/GZRUNMRYJALN.jpg http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/OYN8HRAPCJGH.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/nordgirhnose.jpghttp://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/34433.jpg

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:04 AM
Those noses seem too foetalised in shape. I would relate them to broader faced types, not long - and narrow-faced Nordids in the way that they are described in the classic sense of the word.

A Nordid nose is more prominent. See the attached picture of James Fox, of the Anglo-Saxon form.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:07 AM
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Those noses seem too foetalised in shape. I would relate them to broader faced types, not long - and narrow-faced Nordids in the way that they are described in the classic sense of the word. there is no such thing as a purely narrow, long faced nordic.

this is a pure nordic http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/GZRUNMRYJALN.jpg

Square headshape, inward upturned nose, small eyes, thin lips blonde hair blue eyes you know..

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:12 AM
That would fall out the description of Nordid. Such a nose is an aberrant trait and is associated with the East Baltid, not Nordid.

East Baltids have a high frequency of light hair (often more grayish blonde, almost a silver colour) and light eyes (more "watery" grey than blue). In Sweden you will find more yellow blonde and also ashen hair but with Nordid morphology. In Northwestern Europe Nordid is usually red-blond (or strawberry blonde).

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:16 AM
These described as the purest nordics, the hallstatts have the same exact nose and all other characteristics: http://www.fikas.no/%7Esprocket/snpa/bilder/lindbergh.jpg


http://www.fikas.no/%7Esprocket/snpa/bilder/gorshin.jpg

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Which group is blonder?

Well it says here " the East Baltic type as a whole is blonder than any typically Scandinavian population"

Maybe the east baltics are the true indo europeans.

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:20 AM
The first man look Trönder and if I remember correctly SNPA classified him as "Hallstatt Nordic".

His nose got a higher root. It is different.


These described as the purest nordics, the hallstatts have the same exact nose and all other characteristics

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Lundman wrote that the Estonians could be the blondest people in the world. However, he also said the the blondism is more of an East Baltid than Nordid inspiration.

East Baltids are more common among people who speak a Finnic tongue.


Which group is blonder?

Well it says here " the East Baltic type as a whole is blonder than any typically Scandinavian population"

Maybe the east baltics are the true indo europeans.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
If east baltics are indeed blonder, then they are the truest unmixed indo europeans.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Somethings fishy.....it doesnt fit in that the east baltics are blonder yet speak a language other then indo european.

Maybe there was just language diversion....?

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:26 AM
That is if you somehow believe that blondism is related to Indo-European origins and to speak an Indo-European language correlate with being blond.

Can you prove that?

I think that it is useless to use blondism alone for proving a point about Indo-European origins.

You have shown us East Baltid (and some Brünn-like) noses and described them as Nordid. We reached a conclusion that East Baltids are as blond or blonder than Nordids and from that you have deduced that East Baltids are "purer" Indo-Europeans. Am I right? Is that your analysis?


If east baltics are indeed blonder, then they are the truest unmixed indo europeans.

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:29 AM
You talk as if you are sure about something regarding the physique of proto Indo-Europeans. Please give us sources. Thanks.



Somethings fishy.....it doesnt fit in that the east baltics are blonder yet speak a language other then indo european.

Maybe there was just language diversion....?

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Well many of the hallstatt nordics have the same looks as the east baltics.....I've noticed the darker the "nordic" is, the less east baltic he/she looks.

But first of all, those people are not from baltic countries, and they do speak indo european languages.....

If I would come to a conclusion it would be that finno ugrics adopted a different language (and isnt there a darker, mongoloid component) ok, and I gather the indo europeans retained the language but with the same genes of course.....Many indo europeans from scandnavia would fit the "east baltic" classification.

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:40 AM
It becomes more difficult with the more neotenic females (usually those between 18 and 22) in Sweden. In Southwestern Sweden and parts of Norway in and around Oslo you will fine more straight and even slightly convex long and narrow, high-rooted Göta type noses.

Why Keltic Nordic look the least East Baltid is because of Dinarid. See my avatar ;).

There is also a Nordid type in Eastern Europe, higher skulled, but long headed (but not in modern times, more sub-brachycephalic) with reddish blonde hair and watey grey or blue eyes. It is rare, probably not extinct though. The characteristics are said to be found in Upper Dnepr and some Ukrainian enclaves. The aistin in Estonia is probably a local form of the Fenno-Nordid. The relation between the Fenno-Nordid and East Baltid need further study. The latter may have an Uralic element. Nevertheless, some anthropologist claimed it is only a matter of parallel evolution.



Well many of the hallstatt nordics have the same looks as the east baltics.....I've noticed the darker the "nordic" is, the less east baltic he/she looks.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:44 AM
The most blondest, bluest eyed lightest people have square shaped heads, and the snub nose of the east baltics. Many so called hallstatt nords(vast majority of east baltics and hallstat nords are indo european in ancestry I am sure of it) have this(though dont know why theyre in a different category).

Protruding noses could very well be a purely dinaric influenced on the nordic population.....and since east baltic peoples are the blondest and many indo european speakers in sweden etc for example have the same exact features.

Awar
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 02:29 AM
Indo-European doesn NOT equal blondism. The photos of the people you posted are more East-Baltic influenced, which is genetically Uralic. They ARE the blondest, but by no means are they the only blonde people around ( therefore blondism is not a trait that originates with EB's, just appears in one form with them ).

A true Nordic nose is not snubbed, it's high-rooted, ellegant and often slightly convex.

The pictures you posted here: http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=115962&postcount=5

show clearly that they DO NOT have snubbed EB-type noses. The first one is Nordic, the second one is more Brunn-influences ( IMO ).

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 04:32 AM
I am extremely reluctant to believe so for various reasons.

Some of each is the point of how distinct the little snub upturned noses are prevalent in individuals of north european descend with blonde hair and blue eyes.

Also it is the point of which individuals which such admixture tend to display the little upturned snub noses along with blonde hair and blue eyes. Given the expansion of the indo europeans to northern european, and being the "great homeland". I tend to be reluctant on the behalf to not believe that the little upturned snub noses are not entirely distinct of a indo european trait. As well, light individuals in asia tend to display the partial snub nose.

The thing I am determined to send out is acknowledging admixture levels in modern and
ancient euopean populations. Contrary to what some believe is not what it seemed to be with further inspection.

Where I am getting at is of the general indo european physically distinct type found in all european individuals with indo european ancestry, I looked after the distinct type not found in other world places, for that has to be of the distinctly indo european type, in other words the blonde haired, blue eyed, square shaped head, pink-white skin, small snubbed upturned nose, thin lips among other distinctive features. I noticed types that are usually classified as such and such are merely mixtures of the great basic physical types with surprisingly little variability. For instance, the Brunn, and the Borreby. When you look at them in an open mind what do you see? I'll tell you what, what I see is mixtures of people put into a so called "distinct racial category". The brunn and borreby would more properly be in a mixed category of aboriginal berber like iberics from north africa which clashed with the blonde haired blue eyes snub noses newcomers from the east. As we all may know, mixed types can produce any variability. Such as having light skin with berber features, having brown hair while looking like a blonde swede. Having a berber skin color while looking something not of the skin color that you inherited. Thus I propose, brunn and borreby are all but a variability resulting from the mixtures of the aboriginal iberics from northern african and the indo european blonde newcomers from the east. While you can say they somehow turned into a light population totally without admixture with nordics seems enitely far fetched. A better way to say it is, mixed peoples show suprisingly different phenotypes, I'll give an example, let's say a half berber, half indo european(nordic) individual that lives in...ireland. What carltoon coon did is, throw all the individuals who are light skinned yet look berber in one category (brunn, borreby) and the other who looks almost entirely berber in another category(atlantid, paleo atlantid, meditteranean) among other useless categories. The mixed individual can be in varying "races". No "evolution" took place from berber > nordic. It's simply mixture produces a light (or dark) skinned, dark(or light) haired man who may look any of a mixture of berber or nordic.

His theory is not plausible to say the least. More on this later. peace

Awar
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 05:30 AM
If you take a look at the most recent mtDNA and other genetic charts of Europe, you'll see that these results don't really coincide with phenotypes, and certainly don't coincide with languages.

The snubbed noses and extreme blondism from the East Baltic area are probably closely related with Uralic DNA, but most of the Uralic peoples don't speak IE languages, and there are snubbed noses in areas unaffected by Uralic DNA.

Also, consider that a pure Berber would turn out as predominantly Indo-European in the ancestry-by-DNA tests... but they use the term IE in a misleading/loose way.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 06:03 AM
Umm....in a few minutes I might as well post thousands of upturned snub noses blonde haired blue eyed europeans from ireland to russia. Shall I?

Awar
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 06:24 AM
You can do that, but that will only prove that snub-nosed individuals exist from Ireland to Russia and more... nothing much more than that. Maps and articles about both genetics and phenotypes of populations are much more useful.

Of course, phenotype wasn't considered important enough in the last 60 years, so the best thing to do is consider the phenotype maps outdated, but still look at them while looking at DNA maps. It would save you a lot of time too :D

Fred
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:17 PM
These noses strike me as being more Sub-nordic or east baltic than purely nordic.

norda
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 02:26 PM
These noses strike me as being more Sub-nordic or east baltic than purely nordic.
Surprising high percentage of snub-nosed Nordics of Sweden makes me really careful with whole Nordic issue. One thing is rather obvious for me that relations and correlations among North European types are really close in spite of language, genetic and even anthropologic (CI, HI) differences.

White Preservationist
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 06:58 PM
The most blondest, bluest eyed lightest people have square shaped heads, and the snub nose of the east baltics. The most blond people in the world are not the most blue eyed and the other way around. The most red haired people are the most blue eyed. The Irish not some Scandinavian group is the most blue eyed. The Irish are most richly decorated with whites only traits and they have the least not-white dna based on mitochondrial dna and male chromosome studies.

To the best of my knowledge only in Ireland and Iceland are 50 % + pure light eyed.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 11:56 PM
I still think the Nordic is partially dinarisized, if but a minimal admixture.

Tore
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 06:41 AM
The Irish not some Scandinavian group is the most blue eyed.

Coon's data was not corroborated by fellow anthropologists, however.

Glenlivet
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Most of Coon's data are from elsewhere.

One of the lightest eyes regions in Europe is in SE Ireland. Eastern Scotland got some spots with a very high number of light eyes. Most of England is not as light eyed, but instead lighter haired. One can see it in one of Lundman's maps. Valle in Norway is also very light eyed.



Coon's data was not corroborated by fellow anthropologists, however.

Abby Normal
Sunday, May 16th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Which group is blonder?

Well it says here " the East Baltic type as a whole is blonder than any typically Scandinavian population"

Maybe the east baltics are the true indo europeans.What the hell? Blondness has nothing to do with Indo-Europeanness. Mediterraneans are the purest Indo-Europeans, but are they the blondest? Hardly. Blondness does not make one any more Caucasian or anything of the sort. Volks is right and you are wrong.

Awar
Sunday, May 16th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Actually, the original Indo-Europeans are either the Pontid meds or Danubians from the Balkans or the Corded Nordics from Ukraine and Southern Russia.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 16th, 2004, 09:34 PM
That is likely concerning the theories regarding where they are often placed.

However, on the The Corded or Battle-Axe People Coon also said "There is one cautionary remark which must be made here, and that is: there is so far no justifiable reason for assuming that the Corded people were Nordics."

www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV9.htm

They may have been an original component so to produce Fenno-Nordid and maybe what Coon call Corded in his Anglo-Saxon (which is also much else than that).

Coon in his plate 27 on THE NORDIC RACE: EXAMPLES OF CORDED PREDOMINANCE wrote that "...as some European anthropologists believe, to derive a Nordic directly from a dolichocephalic Upper Palae-olithic ancestor of Brünn or Cro-Magnon type. Reduction of these overgrown races produces a result which is quite un-Nordic morphologically as well as in constitutional
type."

Certain anthropologist see the Nordid as directly related to an Aurignician stock. It is then difficult to say if the component of gracilisation is due to hybrydisation or evolution towards a more refined type. It could be both. What we need to know more about is the relation between Nordids and what is called East Nordid by B Lundman or Fenno-Nordid by v. Eickstedt. It may just be a matter of the in the classical sense the three most important criterias for Nordid, a long head, blondism and tall stature of partially unrelated types. By unrelated in the sense that they developed towards a similar look, or they have original components in different proportions.




Actually, the original Indo-Europeans are either the Pontid meds or Danubians from the Balkans or the Corded Nordics from Ukraine and Southern Russia.

Hans
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 04:24 AM
High root, narrow, perfectly straight is widely held as perfection in the plastic surgery circle for men. For women, that or a slightly concave nose. The pictures posted are more than "slightly" concave. VERY few people have a perfect nose, maybe .2%...just sayinging.

What can I say, I guess it is a "nordic" nose since a good many Scandinavians possess similar types. Whether it is attractive or not is another storey...

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 04:27 AM
Nordic, as in sub-racial type... those noses are not Nordic, no matter how many Scandinavian posses such noses. Those are East-Baltic noses.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 04:59 AM
High root, narrow, perfectly straight is widely held as perfection in the plastic surgery circle for men. For women, that or a slightly concave nose. The pictures posted are more than "slightly" concave. VERY few people have a perfect nose, maybe .2%...just sayinging.

What can I say, I guess it is a "nordic" nose since a good many Scandinavians possess similar types. Whether it is attractive or not is another storey...

Cartilage, where the nasal bones end, tends to grow, even after mid-twenties. This means that the perfectly straight, Nordic nose may look more convex or wavy as an individual gets older. Also, women tend to get less of this cartilage-growth than men. People on Human Growth Hormone tend to get cartilage enlargements all over their bodies which may indicate that hormones have a predominant role in the formation of cartilage. Coon used data based on young men, military recruits regarding his Swedish Nordic types. These same men, did, no doubt, develope more wavy noses in later life. So, in discussing single "traits", just as in discussing "racial types--as in the "type my grandmother" thread---there are missing elements from this converstation. In this case, age and sex which have to do with hormones.

rusalka
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 05:17 AM
Cartilage, where the nasal bones end, tends to grow, even after mid-twenties. This means that the perfectly straight, Nordic nose may look more convex or wavy as an individual gets older.
This is probably true for all noses and not just the Nordic ones, right? I'm not Nordic but I had the perfect straight nose (perfect as in not the perfect nose, but as in perfectly straight :) ) that was just a little upturned only two years ago and yet lately I got that little bit of wave right where the nasal bone ends. It's only visible in sharp lightening but I can feel it very well with my hand. It still looks straight and is not convex or anything as the tip looks upward but the wave is there. How annoying, I thought it would have stopped growing at the age of 21 or so! :)

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 11:03 AM
:lol I had a concave nose up until 10 years ago, now it's wavy...

Odin Biggles
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 11:07 AM
My nose is just long and fat : (

Look like a horse......

Gareth
Friday, May 21st, 2004, 08:15 PM
My nose is just long and fat : (

Look like a horse......
Maybe it's good for breathing. :)