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Razmig
Tuesday, December 16th, 2003, 12:53 AM
I'm currently at debate with an eastern Armenian, whome I am trying to prove is a Turkisized entity (via the y chromosones found common with Armenians from Armenia/Caucasia and Central Asians/East Europeans/Turks) His specific question was....

"What is the specific haplotypes combinations, Human leukocyte antigens, haplotype markers that are known to be the most frequent among the Armenians compared with others?"

Can anyone answer this? I tried researching it myself...but I'm new and got confused.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Tuesday, December 16th, 2003, 01:10 AM
In other words you are trying to prove that Armenians are "Turkisized" even though you don't have any evidence that this is true. You've already made up your mind without looking at any data and now you want to find some data to back up your subjective opinion.

Razmig
Tuesday, December 16th, 2003, 01:59 AM
No, the proof is in the y chromosome, they along with turkmens, tajiks, kurds uzbeks and other turks are high in m173 and m89,

Im not saying ARMENIANS are turkisized, those in the Caucaus and Present day Armenia are. Note: Not all Armenians are from Armenia. I think your taking offence primarily because your a Greek :/

Euclides
Monday, May 10th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure
within a single ethno-national group

Euclides
Monday, May 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure within a single ethno-national group. 'This supports the hypothesis that patterns of migration into or out of the Middle East occurred to a much larger extent via Anatolia and to the west of the Black Sea than via Georgia to the east of the Black Sea. Further resolution of these migration patterns will require more extensive sampling of populations to the north and east of Armenia.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, May 10th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Wilson et al. (2001) have observed haplotype 3 (which they have called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype) to be modal in the Welsh, Basques and Irish. They suggest that it is a signature haplotype of the Palaeolithic peopling of Europe. It is interesting to observe that the Atlantic Modal Haplotype was found in the separate isolated regional samples of Syunik (7.9%) and Karabakh (2.8%) but not in the other four Armenian regions. Furthermore, the modal haplotype in these two regions (haplotype 1) is a one-step neighbour of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype that is also found at highest frequencies in Syunik and Karabakh (14.3% and 11.2%, respectively).

The frequencies of the Atlantic Modal Cluster (defined as the Atlantic Modal Haplotype plus its one-step neighbours) are 24.3% in Syunik, 14.0% in Karabakh, and less than 10.0% in all other regions and data sets in our study apart from England (41.0%) and Friesland (36.2%). The frequency in Syunik is significantly greater than in all other non-Western European data sets included in this study. While it is not possible to discount convergent drift as an explanation for these results, it is worth noting that the more geographically isolated regions of Armenia differ from those areas that are more accessible by displaying a closer genealogical affinity to the Atlantic populations.

If it is not the consequence of drift, the Atlantic Modal Cluster may represent a remnant paternal signal of an ancient, possibly pre-Neolithic population that spread from Southeast Asia into Europe. It will be interesting to determine whether the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and Cluster are detected at high frequencies in other isolated locations in future surveys of Europe and the Near East.

Euclides, it merits here to dig a bit deeper on the issue of convergent drift applied to haplotypes. Many of us are familiar to morphological parallelism, ecological equivalents and the Wright-effect, but this new notion begs for some explanation. It reminds me of Mayr's concept of center and edge.

The totality of gene flow in the periphery is reduced and directs into a one-way inflow of genes. This results in a depletion of genetic variability in the edge area. Central populations however are like in the center of a cobweb crossed-over by fresh new genic contributions. Polymorphic traits(eye, nose..) would be reduced and singular in form(dixit Wolpoff).

But what lessons could we learn here about regional continuity and migration waves when even the genetic record is prompt to converge and erase dissimilitudes between two geographically seperated and in origin unrelated population.
It would raise some questions about the validity to see new morphological races and the presence or absence of certain lineages as radical proof of newcomers, replacing or hybridizing with local population stocks.