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View Full Version : Are the Bavarians Genetically Celtic? [Split]



Sigurd
Tuesday, March 24th, 2009, 09:01 PM
[Discussion split from this thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=98867)


Dagna and Kurtz put it best. I'd say either 0-2 or 2-4. One example is the overly exaggerated "Germanic" ethnicity. Bavarians aren't really that Germanic for example... Bavarians are mostly Celtic with a bit of Teutonic. So the claim of Germanic superiority that some have seems a bit much to me... especially when the nation of Germany is less Germanic than it is Celtic.


Mind elaborating in a little more detail where Bavarians are supposedly more Celtic than Germanic (the Bavarii were a leading Germanic tribe)? As well as your claim that Germans are as a whole? ;)

Myrkvidr
Tuesday, March 24th, 2009, 09:16 PM
Mind elaborating in a little more detail where Bavarians are supposedly more Celtic than Germanic (the Bavarii were a leading Germanic tribe)? As well as your claim that Germans are as a whole? ;)


Certainly.

Often a minority group or tribe that dominates another culture is thus known as said tribe... an example - Russians. Rus means Viking or Swede.. so by that logic most Russians should be Nordic? But, as we know, they are Slavic. Scotland. The Scots are an Irish tribe who invaded Scotland, which is mostly Pict/Briton. The majority, ethnically, are Pict and Briton but they are known as Scots. The Bavarii settled in a region that was already largely populated. They became the dominant force and thus the region became Bavaria, though the majority were the pre-Bavarian inhabitants who were Celtic. To really delve into this one simply needs to look at genetics. Southern Germans are quite different from Northern Germans genetically. haplogroup R1b is found in large amounts in southern/alpine Germany (this includes Switzerland and Austria) while the Haplogroup I (which is known as the "Viking" or "German" gene) is gound in large amounts in northern Germany and little in southern Germany (this one is also found in abundance in Denmark, Scandinavia, Eastern/Northern England).

Sigurd
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 03:44 AM
haplogroup R1b is found in large amounts in southern/alpine Germany (this includes Switzerland and Austria) while the Haplogroup I (which is known as the "Viking" or "German" gene)

It is also found to about 30% in Norway. Your point being? ;)

Myrkvidr
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 04:59 AM
It is also found to about 30% in Norway. Your point being? ;)

I'm not sure I understand. R1b or I is found in Norway at 30%?

I will assume you mean R1b as it is in Norway but I is to a greater extent than 30%

Yes - R1b is indeed in Norway.. as well as playing a role in the greater majority of Western Europe and even present in other parts. My point is - it is the majority in Southern Germany as well as England, Ireland, France, Belgium, Spain, etc. I is the majority in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Northern Germany. This is also a good point that northern/southern German genetics are different. Northern more resembles the Germanic nations while southern more resembles those nations associated with the Celts during Roman times (Gauls in France, etc).

This makes sense as well.. southern/Alpine Germany was Celtic for a great deal of it's history while northern Germany is the homeland (along w/ southern Scandinavia) of the proto-germanic culture. I would believe that the Germanics did not simply move from the north into the Alpine region and all the Celts there simply left and let them settle in without mixing and just take the region which they had lived in for a long time. The southern Germans are a definite mixture of Celtic-Germanic.. and judging by genes they seem to be in the Celtic majority. It's essentially a similar situation to much of southern England (especially the south-west) where they speak Germanic.. they have lots of Germanic culture.. but they are genetically the original inhabitants of the region. Much of Bavarian culture dates back to before the Bavarii even moved in to the area.

Dagna
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 06:59 AM
Germanic is a cultural and linguistic definition as well so the Bavarians and Austrians are Germanic. I believe the nomenclature you are looking for would rather be Nordic or Northern European. Bavarians and Austrians are not Northern European, they are Central European.

Sigurd
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 06:59 AM
I would believe that the Germanics did not simply move from the north into the Alpine region and all the Celts there simply left and let them settle in without mixing and just take the region which they had lived in for a long time.

The Bavarii were a Germanic tribe that originally probably resided in Bohemia ... Baju + wari = Bohemian men? ;)

When the Völkerwanderung started, they did not "simply move south". They were actively pushed and displaced towards originally non-Germanic, Celtic areas.

When a whole population is forcefully moved along the line, be it by competition, war or merely natural resources, then the population tends to move as a whole. This is also where Germanics differed from f.ex. the Rus Vikings.

The Rus were a few colonialists of high social standing which imposed themselves as rulers upon a nation which changed little of its make-up. The Bavarians were pushed along by circumstances as a whole.


The southern Germans are a definite mixture of Celtic-Germanic.. and judging by genes they seem to be in the Celtic majority.

Perhaps the R1b haplotype is simply dominant over the I haplotype and thus pushed the other away to a greater extent, so that relatively little intermixture was needed to install a majority of R1b?

Haplogroups as of yet are not distinctively researched well enough, either, to draw reliable conclusions therefrom.


Much of Bavarian culture dates back to before the Bavarii even moved in to the area.

Again, perhaps mind to present credible examples? ;)

Myrkvidr
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 07:13 AM
The Bavarii were a Germanic tribe that originally probably resided in Bohemia ... Baju + wari = Bohemian men? ;)

When the Völkerwanderung started, they did not "simply move south". They were actively pushed and displaced towards originally non-Germanic, Celtic areas.

Exactly. :)

They moved into Celtic areas and thus mixed with the Celts. This is in no way a bad thing mind you! I'm simply saying that the Southern Germans are also Celtic mixed. (and I have heard this about the Bavarians originating from Bohemia as well.. though Bohemia was originally Celtic as well and the Boii was the Roman name for a Celtic tribe)


Perhaps the R1b haplotype is simply dominant over the I haplotype and thus pushed the other away to a greater extent, so that relatively little intermixture was needed to install a majority of R1b?

Haplogroups as of yet are not distinctively researched well enough, either, to draw reliable conclusions therefrom.

Touche! You make a good argument here and this is very true - genetics is still a new field.. lots to learn yet.


Again, perhaps mind to present credible examples? ;)

Naturally.

Much of the Alpine culture is pre-Germanic.. coming from Celtic, Raetian, and so forth. The Wild-Man is a Raetian or Celtic tradition I believe... I could be wrong about this though so please correct me if so. I know they practice a similar tradition in Slovenia, which was also Raetian.

Once again - I do believe that Bavaria and southern Germany is a mix of Germanic and Celtic. I do not see this is bad, though I suppose some might for who knows what reason. It could indeed be that it is more Germanic than Celtic and that the most common Celtic gene is in the majority be coincidence. I simply cannot see, however, that the once "Celtic Heartland" has no Celtic blood in it anymore! :)

Hauke Haien
Wednesday, March 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM
When new cultural horizons are established and expand, they often incorporate the remnants of previous cultures and peoples and that is why we never had a "Germanic race" or a "Celtic race" that one could mix with, but populations that differ in overall composition within their own cultural horizon.

So, when Germanics expanded into Germany and, much later, into England, they added elements that previously had been "Celtic". It can be theorised that this contributed to a composition that differed to a degree from the people who had originally set out or had stayed behind, and this also has to be taken into account when determining a future direction.