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Dagna
Tuesday, March 17th, 2009, 06:32 AM
This is a qustion for Scandinavians on this forum, but others can answer as well if they are knowledgeable on the topic.

Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"? Do they identify as "Germanic" or do they avoid this term because it reminds them of Germans? Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

Hauke Haien
Tuesday, March 17th, 2009, 07:50 AM
Names of Germany in various Germanic languages

Afrikaans: Duitsland
Danish: Tyskland
Dutch: Duitsland
Faroese: Týskland
German: Deutschland
Icelandic: Þýskaland
Norwegian: Tyskland
Swedish: Tyskland

English: Germany


The term germansk/germönsk does exist in the North Germanic languages, but I am willing to guess that its application is limited to historical and linguistic contexts, the way it is in Germany, and any connection to contemporary identity is lost. It is sad that the time when we sang songs about each other's heroes is over.

Eoppoyz
Tuesday, March 17th, 2009, 08:42 PM
The Swedish word for Germanics doesn't being used so much. The word Scandinavia is very usually. We Scandinavians see us self as "nordbor" or sometimes Scandinavians but that is not often.

Gorm the Old
Thursday, March 19th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I could introduce you to plenty of Norwegian-American immigrants who would not tolerate being called Germanic because, having lived through at least part of the German occupation of Norway in World War II, they hate Germans.

TheGreatest
Thursday, March 19th, 2009, 10:53 PM
I could introduce you to plenty of Norwegian-American immigrants who would not tolerate being called Germanic because, having lived through at least part of the German occupation of Norway in World War II, they hate Germans.

Yeah the problem with using Germanic is that most people think it means German.
Anglo-Saxon should preferably be used instead.

Thusnelda
Friday, March 20th, 2009, 12:28 AM
Yeah the problem with using Germanic is that most people think it means German.
Anglo-Saxon should preferably be used instead.
Why? People misunderstand the term "Germanic", so they should think about their mistake regarding the usage of the world.

And "Anglo-Saxon" - you know from where they originally come from? ;) And by the way, Scandinavians have very less to do with Anglo-Saxons...

Hauke Haien
Friday, March 20th, 2009, 12:31 AM
A cleaner solution, albeit much harder to popularise, would be to stop calling Dutch people "German" and start calling Nederlanders "Netherlanders". As far as the Norwegian-Americans are concerned, they should direct their anger at the defects of their adopted language.

Before the 16th century, the English considered us "Almain", just like the Franco-Normans considered us "Allemande", i.e. Alemannic. Calling other Germanic tribes by their common Latin name would not have made any sense to them, so they used the name of the tribe in closest proximity. What we are dealing with are identity issues among the English people that manifested during the English Renaissance and prompted them to adopt an Italian naming convention that not even France and Spain follow. It is not a sneaky attempt to turn all Germanics into "Germans".

Dagna
Friday, March 27th, 2009, 01:25 AM
Yeah the problem with using Germanic is that most people think it means German.
Anglo-Saxon should preferably be used instead.
I don't believe so. Angles and Saxons are only two of the many Germanic tribes. It would be like calling all reptiles snakes.

Imperator X
Sunday, March 29th, 2009, 10:18 PM
I don't believe so. Angles and Saxons are only two of the many Germanic tribes. It would be like calling all reptiles snakes.

I agree. Anglo-Saxon denotes pre-Norman English people, and at best could denote an Englishman or a person of English heritage. I find it ironic when Scots-Irish southerners referred to themselves as Anglo-Saxons.. Nowadays it is even used to merely refer to a White person here in America. For example the alliance between the Americans and the British during WWII was called the "Anglo-Saxon Alliance" based primarily on America's early British heritage and the two territories common English language. Now it's merely a linguistic term to differentiate English-speaking white America from Spanish speakers. It's like the option on census: White (non-Hispanic).. Hispania is the Latin name of Spain.. Are native European Spaniards (Castellanos, Gallegos, Catalans etc.) really supposed to lump themselves in with Spanish speaking Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Tainos and their various hybrids?

There never really was a clear and accurate assortment of population groups in the census. The "Hispanic" issue should tick-off the native Pan-Mesoamerican peoples and the mestizos just as much as people of European Spanish heritage (criollos).

Gustavus Magnus
Tuesday, March 31st, 2009, 08:52 AM
Yeah the problem with using Germanic is that most people think it means German.
Anglo-Saxon should preferably be used instead.

Why "preferably"? Do you even know what Anglo-Saxon means? Anglo-Saxon means English. We're not all English.

Germanic is a perfect description.

Svartljos
Wednesday, April 1st, 2009, 12:30 AM
I kind of find it strange to use the word Germanic to describe someone who is Germanic, because the word itself is not Germanic as far as I am aware. But, I don't know what word would be better suited and native to Germanic languages for such a concept... As far as I am aware (I might be wrong) Teutonic means the same thing as Germanic (generally referring to all of the tribes), and while it also comes from Latin, I think the Teutones were supposedly some tribe of Germanics.

I can see however that it has more of an exclusiveness to it that Germanic doesn't really have, seeing as it comes from the name of an individual tribe. Is there a word that comes from a Germanic Language that encompasses the concept of Germanic?

Gustavus Magnus
Wednesday, April 1st, 2009, 07:46 AM
Is there a word that comes from a Germanic Language that encompasses the concept of Germanic?

Howabout Nordmän, Northmen?

Svartljos
Wednesday, April 1st, 2009, 05:56 PM
Howabout Nordmän, Northmen?

I guess that works, but it seems like it would only refer to Scandinavians to me. We kind of have two words that are already like that as well, Norse and Norman.

Freja_se
Wednesday, April 1st, 2009, 08:14 PM
I'm not an expert on this but to me it would seem that the term "Nordic" is more appropriate when you discuss Scandinavians in particular, and Northern Europeans in general.

The term Nordic, as seen in its purest form in the Northern parts of Europe and in Scandinavia especially, is more appropriate when you discuss Scandinavians. We don't see ourselves as "Germanics" but as Scandinavians or Nordics, in Swedish "Nordbor".

If you think of Germany and other less Northern parts of Europe the term Germanic is more valid, maybe. Generally speaking one should avoid naming an entire race, ethnic group or movement after one specific nation, and I think the term Germanic gives undue priviledge to Germany.


Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

When you want to include not only Scandinavians you usually say "Northern Europeans", nordeuropeer. But the term "nordisk" doesn't have to mean strictly people living in "Norden", but could also include German- and British people, for example, who are more or less Nordic and people we have ethnic-, cultural- and historic ties to.

Aptrgangr
Friday, April 3rd, 2009, 09:31 PM
If you think of Germany and other less Northern parts of Europe the term Germanic is more valid, maybe. Generally speaking one should avoid naming an entire race, ethnic group or movement after one specific nation, and I think the term Germanic gives undue priviledge to Germany.

Why does the term Germanics give an undue privilege to Germany? Germans and Germanics, there should be no confusion, especially not for Swedes who call Germany tyskland, like we ourselves call us Deutsche, and not Germanen (Germanics).
I noticed how many English and Scandinavians avoid the term Germanic to describe their meta-ethnic heritage, because they fear this term refers to Germans, but if we Germans refer to our Germanic heritage, then we use the name of the tribe we belong into.

Ensomheten
Tuesday, May 5th, 2009, 08:30 PM
I’m first and foremost Norwegian. Although there are historical bonds the whole “Germanic” thing doesn’t swing that much better than “Aryan” or any other identity marker. I leave that to the colonials who probably need it more. My loyalty lies with kind and soil. Blood und boden if you like. And as a comment on http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=110565&page=3 No thanks, we tried the whole pan-Scandinavian thing in 1397, and got fucked for the next 500 years. The only positive thing would be if a union implemented Danish immigration laws.

Freigeistige
Wednesday, May 6th, 2009, 12:44 AM
I am only about 25% Scandinavian, so I'm not sure I can answer this properly, but I consider all parts of my ancestry Germanic. However, I may be influenced by the non-Scandinavian Germanic parts of my heritage. :)

ÆinvargR
Wednesday, May 6th, 2009, 01:03 AM
Germans and Germanics, there should be no confusion, especially not for Swedes who call Germany tyskland, like we ourselves call us Deutsche, and not Germanen (Germanics).
I noticed how many English and Scandinavians avoid the term Germanic to describe their meta-ethnic heritage, because they fear this term refers to Germans
There shouldn't be and there is no confusion. I have never noticed such an avoidance.


the term "nordisk" doesn't have to mean strictly people living in "Norden", but could also include German- and British people, for example, who are more or less Nordic and people we have ethnic-, cultural- and historic ties to.
I don't know who are you speaking for. :S In the Swedish language I speak, the adjective nordisk is completely tied to the geographical substantive Norden and thus does strictly mean people living in (or preferably "being native to") Norden = Iceland, Faroe Islands, Scandinavia, Finland.

Freigeistige
Wednesday, May 6th, 2009, 01:14 AM
There shouldn't be and there is no confusion. I have never noticed such an avoidance.

Actually, there is quite an avoidance of the term "Germanic" in many areas of the United States. In the area I'm living now, there is simply too much German ancestry to deny, but in most parts I've visited or lived, the Germanic people will either tell you the are from somewhere around Germany, or try to highlight their other countries of origin.

ÆinvargR
Wednesday, May 6th, 2009, 01:30 AM
Actually, there is quite an avoidance of the term "Germanic" in many areas of the United States. In the area I'm living now, there is simply too much German ancestry to deny, but in most parts I've visited or lived, the Germanic people will either tell you the are from somewhere around Germany, or try to highlight their other countries of origin.
Oops, I wasn't clear enough, or quoted too much of Aptrgangr's text. I was speaking of Swedish. I totally see the confusion in English. Regarding English, I liked Hauke Haien's logical suggestion of replacing Dutch with Netherlander and German with Dutch.

Freigeistige
Wednesday, May 6th, 2009, 01:48 AM
Oops, I wasn't clear enough, or quoted too much of Aptrgangr's text. I was speaking of Swedish. I totally see the confusion in English. Regarding English, I liked Hauke Haien's logical suggestion of replacing Dutch with Netherlander and German with Dutch.

It would certainly be more accurate, but linguistic habits die hard for the English language, so it is unfortunately not really a plausible change. :(

Snowman
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Most people do not look down on the words german or similar words.

Although when you are a public person and want to mention something about a Germanic subject, you gotta always put up something negative about it. Very sensitive through the media and for governmental officals to talk about.

"Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch."

Tyskar (Germans) is a word atleast I use and many others use when they want to explain all the people who are in the germanic family tree.

I bet there is better word for it, but "Tyskar" works fine.

ÆinvargR
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Tyskar (Germans) is a word atleast I use and many others use when they want to explain all the people who are in the germanic family tree.

I bet there is better word for it, but "Tyskar" works fine.
What? :-O You are the second Swede here to say something that is totally alien to me regarding our vocabulary. I have never heard it used about Germanics, and I can't imagine anyone using or perceiving tysk as meaning anything but specifically German. Possibly within some underground, fanatic, Germany-focused Hitler cult with a handful of members, that's it. Seriously wtf.

Snowman
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 09:25 PM
He?

Diden't you know that all Germanic languages comes from Germany?

Matrix
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:10 PM
As far as I know Scandinavians don't use the English term "Germanic" to talk about themselves. They use "Nordic" instead. "Germanic" is frequently understood as "German".

Freja_se
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Tyskar (Germans) is a word atleast I use and many others use when they want to explain all the people who are in the germanic family tree.

I bet there is better word for it, but "Tyskar" works fine.

I'm sorry but that is not correct. Tyskar means Germans, and only Germans. The Swedish word for Germanics is "GERMANER".

So, no, "tyskar" does not work fine, and I have never in my life seen the word tyskar refer to anything other than Germans, only.


Germanic languages is called "Germanska språk" in Swedish.

The German language is called "tyska språket" in Swedish.


If you want to refer to Scandinavians you would say "skandinaver" or sometimes "nordbor" in Swedish. The adjectives are "skandinavisk" and "nordisk". Scandinavia, or the Nordic countries, is sometimes referred to as "norden".

Patrioten
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:25 PM
The word for Germanic in Swedish, Germansk, I would guess has a racist/nazi ring to it to most Swedes (those who first of all know or think that they know what it means), it's not a word that many people use except for maybe occationally in discussions about languages in differentiating between Germanic and Slavic languages etc. I've only heard it being used a few times outside of history classes where Hitler and the Third Reich were discussed.

Freja_se
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:38 PM
Using the word tyskar incorrectly is not common here. Tyskar instead of germaner is just as wrong as German instead of Germanic. It's the same error, but less frequently made here, and no, actually, most people use the word germaner correctly in Swedish, and know the difference.

The bit about the third reich seems utter nonsense to me, probably since Germanics don't mean Germans, so Germans/tyskar is the word used when you discuss the third reich.

Maybe where the educational level is extremely low it happens but I have never heard it - ever. "Germaner" is frequently used and tysk means german, period.

Dagna
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:39 PM
The word for Germanic in Swedish, Germansk, I would guess has a racist/nazi ring to it to most Swedes (those who first of all know or think that they know what it means), it's not a word that many people use except for maybe occationally in discussions about languages in differentiating between Germanic and Slavic languages etc. I've only heard it being used a few times outside of history classes where Hitler and the Third Reich were discussed.
That is interesting. What about "Tyskar", the word for Germans? Does it have the same connotations? Could the negative connotations of "Germansk" be the reason Snowman mentioned "Tyskar" as a widely used word?

Freja_se
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:50 PM
That is interesting. What about "Tyskar", the word for Germans? Does it have the same connotations? Could the negative connotations of "Germansk" be the reason Snowman mentioned "Tyskar" as a widely used word?

There IS no negative connotation about the word germansk in Swedish. The most frequent use is "de germanska språken", the Germanic languages.

Actually, it is the other way around. The word Germans/tyskar has a more negative ring to it since it DOES bring to mind the third reich which was a German concept - not a Germanic concept.

The word germaner is not frequently used when you discuss the third reich, whereas the word tyskar is always and frequently used.


The word tyskar is not frequently used to mean other than Germans. It means Germans, only. Sorry. lol

Those who don't get a good education might not know the difference between germaner and tyskar, but as I said, it is very uncommon and a sign of lack of education.

Patrioten
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:56 PM
The bit about the third reich seems utter nonsense to me, probably since Germanics don't mean Germans, so Germans/tyskar is the word used when you discuss the third reich.I wonder if you confuse my post with someone elses or think that I defend the erroneous statements made (that tyskar can mean germaner which is just ridicilous). About the Third Reich and Hitler, Germanic is used in the context of the "Germanic race", den germanska rasen, in history classes dealing with WW2.



That is interesting. What about "Tyskar", the word for Germans? Does it have the same connotations? Could the negative connotations of "Germansk" be the reason Snowman mentioned "Tyskar" as a widely used word? No, Tyskar does not have any general nazi connotations apart from perhaps in some mentally deranged leftists who think of Hitler whenever Germany or Germans is brought up for discussion. Tysk/Tyskar is simply a nationality in Swedish.

Freja_se
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 10:59 PM
No, Tyskar does not have any general nazi connotations apart from perhaps in some mentally deranged leftists who think of Hitler whenever Germany or Germans is brought up for discussion. Tysk/Tyskar is simply a nationality in Swedish.

Yes, more so than germaner, which you suggested had such connotations. Uneducated people might confuse germaner with tyskar, so it could explain it.

Patrioten
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:01 PM
Yes, more so than germaner, which you suggested had such connotations.Then we obviously have rather different experiences on this matter.

Freja_se
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:10 PM
Then we obviously have rather different experiences on this matter.

Apparently.

In what way would the word "germaner"/germanics be appropriate and used when you discuss the third reich? I'm curious. It doesn't mean tyskar/Germans.

Germaner/Germanics is often used when you discuss ancient Germanic tribes and Germanic languages. I have never seen any negative connotation to it, just as I haven't seen any negative connotations to Germanics, but to Germans, yes, you sometimes see it.

Dagna
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:13 PM
I have also found it interesting because Hitler did not speak of a Germanic race, but of a German race. When he spoke of people other than Germans, as of a collective, he used phrases like "the Aryan race".

Patrioten
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:29 PM
In what way would the word "germaner"/germanics be appropriate and used when you discuss the third reich? I'm curious. It doesn't mean tyskar/Germans.I'm thinking to myself how to explain this so that you will understand. In school you learn about world war 2, Hitler, the holocaust, and some about the nazi/racist ideology of Hitler. The term aryan is often used within this education, we are talking about school here, but "den germanska rasen", the germanic race, is also used interchangably because it was a term used back then to denote the racial group that Germans and other Germanic people belonged to according to some racial classification systems at that time.

I can't make it any more simple than that.


I have also found it interesting because Hitler did not speak of a Germanic race, but of a German race. When he spoke of people other than Germans, as of a collective, he used phrases like "the Aryan race".I wont vouch for the quality of the education I recieved in the Swedish public school system, after all I was told that the Germans made soap and lampshades from Jews.

Bärin
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:44 PM
I don't understand how someone can confuse Germanic with German outside English. The words for them are obviously very different, not like in English.

Snowman
Sunday, June 28th, 2009, 11:45 PM
I'm sorry but that is not correct. Tyskar means Germans, and only Germans. The Swedish word for Germanics is "GERMANER".

So, no, "tyskar" does not work fine, and I have never in my life seen the word tyskar refer to anything other than Germans, only.


Germanic languages is called "Germanska språk" in Swedish.

The German language is called "tyska språket" in Swedish.


If you want to refer to Scandinavians you would say "skandinaver" or sometimes "nordbor" in Swedish. The adjectives are "skandinavisk" and "nordisk". Scandinavia, or the Nordic countries, is sometimes referred to as "norden".

Thank you. But I already know all that.

I tryed answer to Dagna questions. I paste it again

"Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch."

The correct word is "Germaner". Although I and other use the word "tyskar" when we want to simplify things in an conversation. Because the language and all the people is originated from german tribes looong back in time. Dagna asked for alternative to "Germaner" and I just gave one.

Freja_se
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 12:13 AM
I'm thinking to myself how to explain this so that you will understand. In school you learn about world war 2, Hitler, the holocaust, and some about the nazi/racist ideology of Hitler. The term aryan is often used within this education, we are talking about school here, but "den germanska rasen", the germanic race, is also used interchangably because it was a term used back then to denote the racial group that Germans and other Germanic people belonged to according to some racial classification systems at that time.

I can't make it any more simple than that.

I wont vouch for the quality of the education I recieved in the Swedish public school system, after all I was told that the Germans made soap and lampshades from Jews.

The term Aryan/arisk is used, but not germansk/Germanic, since it has no link to the Nazis. They didn't speak of Germanics/germaner, they spoke of the Germans and of the Aryan race, and the German people.

I think this is simply a case of not realizing that the word "germaner"/Germanics doesn't mean tyskar/Germans. lol

It seems a few Swedes don't know the difference. :-O


The word germaner/Germanics has never had any racially loaded meaning in Swedish, and I have never heard the term "Germanic/germanska race used in school , but instead the term ariska/Aryan race. The word Aryan was very important and the one used, so there you would have a case since it indeed has negative "third reich" connotations.

Germaner:

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaner

Aryan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Hauke Haien
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Although I and other use the word "tyskar" when we want to simplify things in an conversation. Because the language and all the people is originated from german tribes looong back in time.
Do you believe in some form of Paleolithic Continuity Theory (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=93723) or do you posit a proto-Germanic Urheimat in Germany within a wider Indo-Europeanisation process?

The expansion of the Germanic tribes is usually imagined in a North-South direction like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

Patrioten
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 12:35 AM
The term Aryan/arisk is used, but not germansk/Germanic, since it has no link to the Nazis. They didn't speak of Germanics/germaner, they spoke of the Germans and of the Aryan race, and the German people.

I think this is simply a case of not realizing that the word "germaner"/Germanics doesn't mean tyskar/Germans. lol

It seems a few Swedes don't know the difference. :-O


The word germaner/Germanics has never had any racially loaded meaning in Swedish, and I have never heard the term "Germanic/germanska race used in school , but instead the term Aryan race. The word Aryan was very important and the one used, so there you would have a case since it indeed has negative "third reich" connotations.

Germaner:

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaner

Aryan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AryanNot that it is possible to do but if one were to do a survey of what comes to mind when a Swede hears the word germansk, do you think that you would get value neutral answers?

Snowman
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 01:32 AM
Do you believe in some form of Paleolithic Continuity Theory (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=93723) or do you posit a proto-Germanic Urheimat in Germany within a wider Indo-Europeanisation process?

The expansion of the Germanic tribes is usually imagined in a North-South direction like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

I have to admit that I'm a bit splitted in this question. But I find PIE theory more realistic then PCT at the moment.

Liemannen
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 02:32 AM
This is a qustion for Scandinavians on this forum, but others can answer as well if they are knowledgeable on the topic.

Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"? Do they identify as "Germanic" or do they avoid this term because it reminds them of Germans? Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

The Swedish word for Germanic is as far as I know only used in linguistics and for ancient tribes in today's Germany.

I don't believe Swedes in general are even aware of the notion of a Germanic people. I know for sure that I've never heard of Germanic culture or the Germanic people before I joined Skadi.

Swedes often talk about Scandinavia and the Nordic peoples. Yes, peoples, to a Swede there's a big difference between Swedes, Danes, Finns, Icelanders and Norwegians. Not that we believe the others to be inferior (even if they don't manufacture cars and speak funny), just different. Germans, Frisians and Brits are just to strange and to far away to be regarded as anything else than neighbors, good neighbors no doubt, but still just neighbors.
The strange thing is that though Swedes don't think of themselves as part of a Scandinavian or Germanic people, a lot of them have no problem identifying themselves as part of a European community. However, I believe this to be a rather recent development and I blame it on media and the government funded pro-EU propaganda that's constantly flooding us.

Before WWII Sweden was a pro-German society because of trade and close relations in the areas of culture and education. German was the foreign language of choice. (As late as when I went to secondary school I was recommended to take German, as all engineering textbooks were written in German. Turned out they were not.)

Unfortunately the German invasion of Denmark and Norway in 1940 gave Germany a lot of bad-will in Sweden too, and that still sticks. And insidious Jewish propaganda about gas chambers have of course also tainted the reputation of the Germans.

As the term "Germanic" is not familiar to ordinary Swedes they will inadvertently associate it with the English word "Germany". Therefore I'm afraid that any discussion in Sweden about a common Germanic culture or a united Germanic people could easily be dismissed as Nazi propaganda, effectively ending the discussion.

Sad but true.

Balder
Monday, June 29th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Do you believe in some form of Paleolithic Continuity Theory (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=93723) or do you posit a proto-Germanic Urheimat in Germany within a wider Indo-Europeanisation process?

The expansion of the Germanic tribes is usually imagined in a North-South direction like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png


True, and to better understand this is necessary to understand the period of the Nordic Bronze age culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age) which preceded the early urheimat of Germanic culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic) or proto-germanic culture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nordic_Bronze_Age.png/577px-Nordic_Bronze_Age.png
Map of the Nordic Bronze Age culture, ca 1200 BC


Skåne and Jutland are considered by many scholars as the germanic urheimat, meaning that all germanics have originated there, that's why both were the epicenter of the Nordic Bronze age.

There is an interesting Swedish documentary about the Nordic bronze age and periods that preceded it also as the settlement of Scandinavia after the ice age, the documentary is called Stenristarna (https://www.filmia.se/dvd/7505/stenristarna/)

This video is a clip from the documentary Stenristarna. In this clip Professor Kristian Kristiansen of University of Götenborg explains why he thinks the Nordic Bronze Age started in Skåne and also the its spread to the region in red as shown in map above.

b5_qaJPuD9A

Freja_se
Tuesday, June 30th, 2009, 12:58 AM
Not that it is possible to do but if one were to do a survey of what comes to mind when a Swede hears the word germansk, do you think that you would get value neutral answers?

Well, according to some here many Swedes don't even know what germansk/germaner means and confuse it with German/s, so I suppose they will think of German, then, which I have already said has some negative connotations as it could bring to mind the war.

Those who are educated on the meaning of the word germansk/germaner will not think of the third reich but of Germanic languages and culture. It is vey seldom used in a racially charged context, unlike for example the word Aryan, which was often used during the third reich era, and which is often used just as a racial description (Aryan race).

Most people who know the meaning of the word germanska/ germaner will think of the Germanic languages and culture.

Méldmir
Tuesday, September 15th, 2009, 11:37 PM
Scandinavians would rarely say that they are Germanic. Of course, mostly it is because of the current state of society where germanic still equals to nazi, and you can't be proud of your nation. Since a majority of people still buy that, it should be of no surprise that few people would say they they are Germanic.

But in their hearts, or in their subconcious if you like, I still think everyone do identify as a germanic, even if they are not aware of it. Even the most PC or "antiracist" people, because they know that the Germans, Dutch, English etc are closer to the Scandinavians than other people. And not only because of geographical closeness, because I think most Swedes would idenitfy more with a German than a Pole, since the language and the mindset would be closer. That is my belief. PC people like to bash their own culture and nation before other nations, and to me this is a sign that they personally are close to it. So a Swedish PC person first will talk negatively about Swedish culture, but he will also be negative against Dutch culture and traditions before he bashes lets say Spanish culture. Do you understand what I mean? To me this is a sign that even the most PC person identify as a Germanic, and we see this as they dislike more what they feel more home with. This is just a theory I have, and nothing scientific...

Blod og Jord
Friday, October 16th, 2009, 06:35 PM
Scandinavians will rarely say we're Germanic,
but as Méldmir said we identify with it subconsciously.
First of course we identify with our most immediate kin,
the other Scandinavian countries,
and with Iceland.
Also with parts of North Germany.
Then other Germanic countries.

Isblink
Thursday, November 5th, 2009, 10:24 PM
From the 1870s until the WW! Berlin was the cultural metropole of most scandinavians, and the Germanic identification among them was strong. Finland even considered a German king, after Germany had trained the Finnish Jaeger troups. which played an important role in the War of Liberation 1918, against the social democrat Red guards and their Bolshevik backers. Germany even intervenated in this war and German troups liberated Helsingfors/Helsinki in April 1918. But after the German capitulation, Finland decided to become a republic. Even the other Nordic peoples lost much of their feeling of pan-Germanism, after the german defeat and the chaotic times that followed. Berlin in the 1920s was more known as a decadent metropolis than as a cultural one. and after the founding of the Third Reich there never was time for any kind of re-identification with Germania for most Scandinavians before WW2 broke out.
The only Nordic country which allied itself with Germany in this war was Finland, during the so called Continuation War against the Soviet Union, 1941-44.

Gryning
Wednesday, November 11th, 2009, 07:56 AM
I have noticed that people who have little insight into ethnic awareness do not refer to themselves as "germanic". The average Scandinavian probably identifies as a "nordbo", freely translated "inhabitant of the North". That, or "nordisk", "nordic". The word "germanic" is usually used only in the context of germanic languages in language studies.

Einarr
Sunday, November 15th, 2009, 12:01 PM
I have noticed that people who have little insight into ethnic awareness do not refer to themselves as "germanic". The average Scandinavian probably identifies as a "nordbo", freely translated "inhabitant of the North". That, or "nordisk", "nordic". The word "germanic" is usually used only in the context of germanic languages in language studies.

I agree, I have always thought of the term "germanic" as having more of a broad language or cultural meaning, not so much an ethnic or ancestral meaning. I don't mean German or Germany when I say germanic, but rather all regions which fall into a similar category of either language, culture, or ethnic type (any of those). I realize that Scandinavia is not the same as Germany, but they are at least similar to Northern Germany (ethnically/ancestrally speaking), and also fall into the language or cultural category of germanic.

I use the term nordic to refer to Scandinavians, and nordid as a term for general Northern Europeans (including British Isles/Ireland etc). Would that be incorrect (anyone)?

Einarr
Thursday, November 19th, 2009, 01:01 AM
I use the term nordic to refer to Scandinavians, and nordid as a term for general Northern Europeans (including British Isles/Ireland etc). Would that be incorrect (anyone)?

Quoting myself to make something I said more clear. When I say nordic above I'm referring to Scandinavia being known as the "nordic countries." I didn't mean the subracial/phenotype term of 'nordic' per say, though most Scandinavians would fall in that category.

Hauke Haien
Thursday, November 19th, 2009, 06:02 AM
ethnic type
Ethnicity: Biological, Social or Both? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=90240)


I use the term nordic to refer to Scandinavians,
The Difference Between Scandinavian and Nordic (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=87186)


and nordid as a term for general Northern Europeans (including British Isles/Ireland etc).
Physical Anthropology > Europoid > Nordid (http://forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=108)

Einarr
Thursday, November 19th, 2009, 06:55 AM
Ethnicity: Biological, Social or Both? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=90240)
The Difference Between Scandinavian and Nordic (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=87186)
Physical Anthropology > Europoid > Nordid (http://forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=108)

Thanks for those! Part of my confusion was that to me 'nordic' meant the classic nord phenotype, or 'hallstatt' type. I used nordid as a general term for all of the other types, including hallstatt. Anyway thanks again.

I should also say that I wrote my first post in this thread a bit poorly. Thinking of Germanic more as a language or cultural term took precedence for me since there are many different groups of Germanic people. I still had the ancestral requirement, but it was already implied. I do not think that a black or asian person for example can be "Germanic" just because they speak a Germanic language, or come from a Germanic culture. Likewise, I think that slavs and meds should each mostly try to stay where they are too. No offense to them, they should want uphold their own cultures, languages, and people anyway.

Huginn ok Muninn
Thursday, November 19th, 2009, 09:12 AM
The term "Germanic" is merely a convention and has cognates in all the Germanic languages. Whether or not an individual is enlightened about its meaning and implications does not invalidate it. There must be some term agreed upon by academics to define this related family of languages, peoples, and cultures. I suppose we could call ourselves the "Sons of Mannaz" if we wanted to reference the ancient legends for a source of our commonality, or talk about the Nordic Bronze Age for an archaeological reference, or deduce the existence and time period at which there was a common language, "Proto-Germanic," which united our peoples, or look at gene frequency to hypothesize about urheimats or ur-urheimats, but the commonality plainly exists to one degree or another, enough so that we here understand (or think we understand) what this forum refers to as "Germanic." It is our duty to tell others of our peoples about this, because our enemy, which has arrogantly taken upon itself the task of defining our society, surely will not.

sunne
Thursday, November 19th, 2009, 07:36 PM
i do not look down on the use of the word germanic. one need only do research do know we are all the same gene pool. of course this does not include all the coloureds that have moved into our areas nor their mongrel decendants. i consider my self a dane first a scandinavian/germanic genetically.

heksemester
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 06:55 PM
The term "Germanic" is not used around here that much, usually it is misunderstood and misused merely for as a word for all German people

So using terminology like that, especially around the German/Danish border region would be viewed as insulting to most Danes.

But i, unlike them. Use the word with pride to describe the origins of my race.
It is the most fitting word to describe the northern European identity. But of cause, in Scandinavia vi use the words "nordisk" or "skandinavisk", and this is the most commonly used term for our people..

But i think with the younger generations, the word "germansk" is on a comeback!

Blod og Jord
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 10:06 PM
So using terminology like that, especially around the German/Danish border region would be viewed as insulting to most Danes.
Oh yes, I know what you mean. Using Germanic would risk to be confused for a Nazi or Hitlerist.
Once someone accused me of wanting the Danish part to be invaded by Germany because of it. :nope

heksemester
Monday, November 23rd, 2009, 05:05 PM
Oh yes, I know what you mean. Using Germanic would risk to be confused for a Nazi or Hitlerist.
Once someone accused me of wanting the Danish part to be invaded by Germany because of it. :nope

That is true...

One would be considered a "feltmadras" due to this terminological ignorance. But the cultural tensions lies deeper than just the second world war and still one can find a great inherent hatred towards all things german. I say its time to bury the hatchet once and for all...

olavnorsk
Sunday, November 29th, 2009, 08:08 AM
This is a qustion for Scandinavians on this forum, but others can answer as well if they are knowledgeable on the topic.

Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"? Do they identify as "Germanic" or do they avoid this term because it reminds them of Germans? Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

No, I wouldn't say Scandinavians "look down" on the term Germanic (at least not Scandinavians with a minimum of education). We are a Germanic people after all and speak a Germanic language. However, the term is mostly used in linguistical and historical contexts, as others have pointed out. The term Germanic doesn't remind us too much of Germans because we have a different word for German(s) (tysk (Swedish tyska), cognate with Deutsch).

We don't have a different word for Germanic as a whole, terms like Nordic and Scandinavian have a much more narrow meaning and are not synonymous.

Josef S
Monday, February 8th, 2010, 11:10 PM
I use the term germanic and I view my culture and myself as germanic. Maybe I'm more favorable towards Germany than the average scandinavian, because I have ancestry as well as living relatives there.

In some aspects, like racial awareness and how I relate to history, I feel more german than swedish because I honestly sympathize with most things german. This is evident in my father and my sister too. My sister lived in Berlin for some time and studied german and says it's one of the places in the world where she felt the most at home. I also visited Germany and Austria and it felt like entering a time bubble, as if I could feel the history of the land and the people for hundreds of years. I saw more of people who looked like me, I experienced that more people have my preferences and style of thinking etc than what's the case in Sweden.

I usually say I'm swedish but with a german heart and name, and if I was fluent in german like my dad and sister I might even have migrated because I sometimes feel I can't communicate as directly with swedish people in some situations.

To me it's natural to identify scandinavian as "germanic", in a very positive way but be warned because Scandinavia, and Sweden in particular, have some very non-germanic elements. Northern Sweden for example, the lap and other "random" blood and culture has created a sort of weaker and less honorable people, they think and look like racial traitors to me. They lack the natural nobility which comes from most german blood. This is something I can sense naturally.

Sweden is full of racial traitors and the best cure against these is to strenghten the scandinavian identity as a germanic identity. Cutting Sandinavia off from the heart of the most noble germanic culture (in terms of achievements), without which Sweden wouldn't even have become a developed country, is ethnical suicide. Unfortunately Sweden is heading that way because to many swedes, an arab is a brother while a german is a character from a WW2 movie.

Holt
Friday, April 30th, 2010, 07:10 AM
As has been noted by several other people here, the connotations of "Germanic" are mainly linguistic and historic, and bear little meaning otherwise. To most people, "Germanic" won't have any connection with the Germans.

In politically correct speech, you would rarely refer to "Germanics as a whole" anyway. More often you speak of the Germanic languages and the countries where they are spoken, but this would be in a linguistic context, not a social or political one.

As a Norwegian I feel more Nordic than European, since our contact with continental Europe has been minimal. Danes—and perhaps Swedes to a lesser extent—will probably have a different relationship to continental Europe and a "European" identity. With regards to a Germanic identity, I'd agree with the others above that this will very rarely be explicitly stated, but rather exist on a deeper level. The similarities in language and looks are significant and do probably affect people's judgment more than they are aware of.

Mouse Shadow
Friday, April 30th, 2010, 09:15 AM
This is a qustion for Scandinavians on this forum, but others can answer as well if they are knowledgeable on the topic.

Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"? Do they identify as "Germanic" or do they avoid this term because it reminds them of Germans? Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.


How about we call ourselves, Aranian...?

:) (ar-rain-nee-anne)

Because it sounds a little Indian (apparently where we stemmed from originally, Indo-Europeans [I think I read that a few times] please don't crucify me for my ignorance)
It sounds a little Persian, Iranian. I heard [yes from my convoluted web experience that Persian's were originally white people before race mixing.
It sounds a little Arayn too.
To me it also sounds like we whities would love to go jihad on the jews. :thumbup

Makes it sound global and intrinsic to our identity.

Anyway, I'm just offering. I don't mind the word personally. Maybe there is a better variation. It's still pretty close to Iranian though...

Arla
Saturday, July 3rd, 2010, 10:43 PM
This is a qustion for Scandinavians on this forum, but others can answer as well if they are knowledgeable on the topic.

Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"? Do they identify as "Germanic" or do they avoid this term because it reminds them of Germans? Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

I would say that ordinary people in Sweden doesn’t use the term Germanic to identify them self or any other people. I have noticed a reluctance to use any other terms than Europeans, possibly with North, West, South, East or Central as a prefix, or what country a person has citizenship in.

Germanic is used virtually only in the academic community to describe the language, culture or history but never for the people themselves. I would say that there is a fear to divide people in all the proper compartments because of the possibility that one will be classified as racist.

There is also a quite strong tendency to try to part the north and its people from the rest of the Germanic community. The media and popular science often change the expression "North Germanic" to "Scandinavian" or "Nordic" in an attempt to wall off themselves. I think this can lead people to associate Germanic with Germany / German because it’s their culture and their language that is described as Germanic, not ours.

VikingManx
Saturday, July 3rd, 2010, 10:57 PM
I agree. Anglo-Saxon denotes pre-Norman English people, and at best could denote an Englishman or a person of English heritage. I find it ironic when Scots-Irish southerners referred to themselves as Anglo-Saxons.. Nowadays it is even used to merely refer to a White person here in America. For example the alliance between the Americans and the British during WWII was called the "Anglo-Saxon Alliance" based primarily on America's early British heritage and the two territories common English language. Now it's merely a linguistic term to differentiate English-speaking white America from Spanish speakers. It's like the option on census: White (non-Hispanic).. Hispania is the Latin name of Spain.. Are native European Spaniards (Castellanos, Gallegos, Catalans etc.) really supposed to lump themselves in with Spanish speaking Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Tainos and their various hybrids?

There never really was a clear and accurate assortment of population groups in the census. The "Hispanic" issue should tick-off the native Pan-Mesoamerican peoples and the mestizos just as much as people of European Spanish heritage (criollos).

Scots-Irish people are primarily of Lowland Scotland extraction, making them descended mostly from Angles and Danish Vikings.

"Scot-Irish" people are not Celts.

sunne
Monday, February 21st, 2011, 05:47 PM
I could introduce you to plenty of Norwegian-American immigrants who would not tolerate being called Germanic because, having lived through at least part of the German occupation of Norway in World War II, they hate Germans.

lund means grove in old norse. man means human being

as for germanics hating other germanics: very sad. and pointless. but if happens even today. my sister hates me because i am disapointed that she married a jew. she hates her own gene pool so much that she MARRIED and REPRODUCED with a jew. 4 fewer white northern europeans. in a diminishing gene pool.


Why? People misunderstand the term "Germanic", so they should think about their mistake regarding the usage of the world.

And "Anglo-Saxon" - you know from where they originally come from? ;) And by the way, Scandinavians have very less to do with Anglo-Saxons...

anglos came from the angeln peninsula in what became denmark. the saxons were then in the area where germany and denamrk now connect. also the jutes came over with the angles and saxons and they are from the jutland peninsula also in demark...so yes they are scandinavian

angles saxons jutes and normans are all of the same gene pool. while the first three came from what is now called denmark the normans or nordmans were from the north as the name indicates. they were vikings given that land by france or what would become france. william the bastard turned william the conqueror when he went to angleland was the grandson of rollo - a viking. if the germanics were not such a contentious bunch there would be many more of us. like the amrican indians, we squabble amongst ourselves and have eliminated so many. and yet, our inventions and way of like are dominant.

sunne
Monday, February 21st, 2011, 05:50 PM
as an actual anglo-saxon and not being from england, i must "protest".

my family is not only from the angeln peninsula and from where the saxons were located during the time they went to england. the english are our cousins, not our enemies. only the coloureds who are foolishly allowed in to our lands are our enemies. and those of us who allow this for whatever reason are traitors to our people.

MidgardPatriot
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 01:18 AM
stop calling Dutch people "German"

I read somewhere that a possible source of the English word "Dutch" was a misappropriation of "Deutsche".

Gandalfur
Sunday, April 15th, 2012, 08:56 AM
I would say that people in Småland, Sweden feel close affinity with the Danes, Norwegians, Icelanders, Faroese and Finland Swedish people. Next, we think of ourselves as "Nordbor", people who live in Norden which includes Finland and Greenland. This means that we feel a special relationship with Finns, the Sami and Greenlanders. We also want to develop our relations with the Baltic countries, especially Estonia which has a Swedish minority. We say that Swedish is "germanisk" (Germanic) and we view the British, Germans, Dutch and Flemish as cousins as well as the Scandinavian people living in the diaspora. We recognize that the Scandinavians are part of the Germanic family and this includes Germany. German immigrants to Sweden made many positive contributions. Sweden had a rather close relationship with Germany prior to the world wars, but the second world war caused Germany to loose a lot of prestige in Sweden. Hitler created serious diplomatic problems for us in relationship to our Nordic neighbors that have take a generation to repair. English is our second language now, but we do need to study more German as Germany is our largest trade partner in the European Union. We do tend to view Germany with some suspicion due to the way that they meet with the French and then try to tell all of the other countries what to do. This does not sit well in Sweden, though we often find ourselves in agreement with the Germans on EU matters. The British and Dutch are very popular in Sweden.

RobertWesterlund
Monday, April 16th, 2012, 03:43 AM
Which term is most commonly used in Scandinavia to refer to Germanics as a whole? I know of the existence of words like "nordisk" but I am curious if there is another which includes people like the Germans, English or Dutch.

Germanic people, based on ethnicity and not refering to nationality:

Germanska folk (in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish quite similar).

bernwolf
Sunday, May 13th, 2012, 11:42 PM
Yeah the problem with using Germanic is that most people think it means German.
Anglo-Saxon should preferably be used instead. A friend of mine who is of German descent has a friend who is of Norwegian descent. He told me that his friend who is of Norwegian descent fullt recognizes that Norwegians and Germans are of the same bloodline.

Sybren
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 05:35 AM
The word for Germanic in Swedish, Germansk, I would guess has a racist/nazi ring to it to most Swedes (those who first of all know or think that they know what it means), it's not a word that many people use except for maybe occationally in discussions about languages in differentiating between Germanic and Slavic languages etc. I've only heard it being used a few times outside of history classes where Hitler and the Third Reich were discussed.
It's the same around here.

Dutch 'Germaans' and Frisian 'Germaansk' are definitely "filthy" words here. When you say them, shame on you for bringing up the issue of superiority of certain races (:S).

Indeed in certain linguistical context, you can get away with using this awful evil word.


Also, the understanding is that Germanic tribes used to live here. All of a sudden they just vanished :) Never mind that there is practically no ancestry of non-Germanics around here, the Germanics are still mystical tribes of the past and we somehow appeared from thin air :)

Þoreiðar
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 11:24 AM
Do Scandinavians look down on the term "Germanic"?There's very little understanding of the term 'Germanic (Germansk)' in Scandinavia. Most people just take it to mean 'White' or 'Aryan', and automatically associate it exclusively with Hitler, the Third Reich and 'racism'.

As for Scandinavian Nationalists, who usually have a much better understanding of such terminology, most seem to prefer to see themselves as 'Northern/Nordic' and 'Scandinavian' before 'Germanic'.

Mrs vonTrep
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 11:50 AM
As for Scandinavian Nationalists, who usually have a much better understanding of such terminology, most seem to prefer to see themselves as 'Northern/Nordic' and 'Scandinavian' before 'Germanic'.

I agree with that. Although my organization uses the word 'germansk' sometimes, most don't. We're simply first and foremost Scandinavians, or Nordic. The word Germanic isn't as important in comparsion it seems. But I've seen a few Scandinavian nationalists describe themselves as "North Germanic" on internet forums.

I also think many Scandinavians feel a quite close bond to the Finns (not as close as with other Scandinavians), I don't think there's much general knowledge about the word Germanic and who is actually Germanic or not. We've been so close to the Finns in different ways throughout history so they're sort of a part of ''us'' as a people today, the Nordic people. I think Scandinavians in general might see it like that.

I'm not so sure the ''typical'' Scandinavian feels a special bond to other Germanic people though. Are we even a part of Europe? Sometimes I wonder. :D

Sigyn
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 06:58 PM
I agree with that. Although my organization uses the word 'germansk' sometimes, most don't. We're simply first and foremost Scandinavians, or Nordic.
This is also how I see it. It's a clear political position, and it easily answers the question of "who's racially in and who's out". Most Swedish nationalists just view themselves as "Nordic" people.

The word "Germanic" is much less common in Scandinavia, and mainly associated with linguistic studies or with history classes in school.


I also think many Scandinavians feel a quite close bond to the Finns (not as close as with other Scandinavians), I don't think there's much general knowledge about the word Germanic and who is actually Germanic or not. We've been so close to the Finns in different ways throughout history so they're sort of a part of ''us'' as a people today, the Nordic people.
Finnish people are counted as Nordic, but not as Scandinavian or Germanic or even Indo-European. However, most Swedes do feel a close bond to the Finns due to our closeness and long history together. Although they're much more distant than Danes or Norwegians, we definitely see them as a part of "Norden".

There is a much clearer "us and them" feeling towards the others on the east side of the Baltic sea (such as Balts and Russians), mainly because we don't have this shared history that we've had with Finland.

Bernhard
Monday, May 14th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Also, the understanding is that Germanic tribes used to live here. All of a sudden they just vanished :) Never mind that there is practically no ancestry of non-Germanics around here, the Germanics are still mystical tribes of the past and we somehow appeared from thin air :)

Exactly, and here in the south of the Netherlands there's also the fact that we Germanics came to live here more recently after the Romans. People tend to put a lot more emphasis on the Roman part of our history, as if the Great Migrations never took place.

Ingvaeonic
Saturday, June 9th, 2012, 03:54 PM
I don't know why the term Germanic should have any negative connotation in Scandinavia. Danes, Norwegians, and Swedes are quite clearly Germanic peoples. I would follow the simple historical and linguistic distinction of counting Germanic Scandinavians as North Germanic and Germans, Frisians, Dutch, English, etc. as West Germanic. This is a pretty straightforward and clear distinction.

EQ Fighter
Saturday, June 9th, 2012, 05:14 PM
There's very little understanding of the term 'Germanic (Germansk)' in Scandinavia. Most people just take it to mean 'White' or 'Aryan', and automatically associate it exclusively with Hitler, the Third Reich and 'racism'.

If Im not right the term "German" is of Roman origin. I don't think the Romans were making distinctions among Germanic Tribes. And for sure I don't think they felt they were a "Superior Race".

LOL in fact it was more like they felt they are inferior barbarians, without any form of civilization. And they were somewhat inferior to Rome in the area of technology.

Same sort of issue when White Europeans arrived in America.



As for Scandinavian Nationalists, who usually have a much better understanding of such terminology, most seem to prefer to see themselves as 'Northern/Nordic' and 'Scandinavian' before 'Germanic'.

That is probably more correct in as the fact that Nordics/Scandinavians are a sub ethnic group of a larger group of Germanic populations.

Olavssønn
Saturday, June 9th, 2012, 08:35 PM
I don't know why the term Germanic should have any negative connotation in Scandinavia.

It's because those demonic NAZIS used the word... :D



Danes, Norwegians, and Swedes are quite clearly Germanic peoples.

Yes, Scandinavians are clearly to be counted as Germanic. Our language is Germanic, and our ancient deities were largely the same as those worshipped by other Germanic peoples (Odhinn among the Norse, Woden among the Anglo-Saxons etc.) Genetically speaking, Scandinavians are closest to other Germanic-speaking nations.

All this is true, but it doesn't change the fact that mainstream Scandinavians do not think of themselves as belonging to a Germanic meta-ethnicity. I think even that most of us would rather identify as Europeans than Germanics, although the national (and the Nordic) identity comes first. This is mainly due to the fact that the term "Germanic" is seldom used, while one often talk about Europe...

I see myself as Norwegian-Scandinavian first, and then Germanic and European.

Wyrd
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 08:00 PM
I learned about the term Germanic mostly from books, history articles, etc. Otherwise, in everyday life in the US people of Norwegian, Swedish or Danish ancestry identify as Scandinavian Americans. Germanic Americans, if used, is associated with Americans of German or Austrian descent. On the other hand, we Americans of Scandinavian descent feel closer to German Americans, Dutch Americans, Anglo-Americans than we do to non-Germanic Americans, even if we don't specifically call it that. So there is some sort of overall Germanic consciousness, but it doesn't really have a name.

Spjabork
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 08:14 PM
The term "skandinavian" should not be used anymore. The folks should be called North Germanics, because this is what they are.

I think that the epithet "North" is already distinction and honorification enough. They can be proud to be the northernmost of all Germanics.

Juthunge
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 08:43 PM
The term "skandinavian" should not be used anymore. The folks should be called North Germanics, because this is what they are.
It's a genuine native North Germanic term that's almost two thousand years old. Where's the problem with it?

Theunissen
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 08:52 PM
It's the same around here.

Dutch 'Germaans' and Frisian 'Germaansk' are definitely "filthy" words here. When you say them, shame on you for bringing up the issue of superiority of certain races (:S).

Indeed in certain linguistical context, you can get away with using this awful evil word.

How is Germaans an "evil word"? No idea how someone could concoct something like that.



Also, the understanding is that Germanic tribes used to live here. All of a sudden they just vanished :) Never mind that there is practically no ancestry of non-Germanics around here, the Germanics are still mystical tribes of the past and we somehow appeared from thin air :)
.... And then even speaking a Germanic language, for example.

Spjabork
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 08:57 PM
It's a genuine native North Germanic term that's almost two thousand years old. Where's the problem with it?
First, I just vented my personal opinion, in a forum. ;)

Second, the term itself refers to a geographical location. That is awkward, because all other names for Germanic folks refer either to the folk itself, or to a thing (often a weapon) which the folk did use.

Third, the term has been used, and abused as token for, and has become laden with anti-Germanic, specifically anti-German sentiments. It has thus become a serious obstacle for all movements and endeavors toward Germanic unity and unification.

Wyrd
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 09:05 PM
Scandinavia is the birth place and cradle of Germanics, therefore it's an important term, especially for Northern Germanics. Another reason many Scandinavian Germanics don't use Germanic in everyday life is because of the negative association with Hitler's Germanic Reich. Scandinavians are proud and while they don't dislike Germans, they oppose the idea of being dominated by Germany. Scandinavism exists as an ideology to unite Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians.


Staff note: Discussion about Scandinavian vs. Nordic has been split here (https://forums.skadi.info/showthread.php?t=87186&page=3). Discussion about Norway in WWII is continued here (https://forums.skadi.info/showthread.php?t=148872&page=42). Please continue to use this thread exclusively for the discussion about the use of the "Germanic" nomenclature in Scandinavia.

Blod og Jord
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 09:23 PM
Not anti-Germanic but as Wyrd explained, Scandinavians don't want to be dominated by Germans. There was an anti-nazi sentiment because of WWII. Another type of rivalry is because of Schleswig-Holstein.

There are very few Scadinavians who are truly anti-Germanic and hate Germans themselves or find them inferior to us, because they believe we were the first and true Germanics, while Germans only inherited some parts of our culture, so they shouldn't try bossing us around. But there are also anti-Scandinavian Germans who think the other way around, that Scandinavians are weak and the only good thing about us is that we have many Nordic looking people.

But today most of us don't share any ill sentiment and we welcome German people in our countries, don't count them as really foreign, etc.
Scandinavism as an ideology exists because we naturally feel closer to each other than to other Germanics, we understand our languages, etc. but that's also true for other Germanics, Germans with Austrians and Swiss or Liechtensteiners, Flanders with the Netherlands or Luxembourg, Anglosphere countries and so on. It doesn't mean we deny the Germanic heritage. We are Danes/Nowergian/Swedes, then Scandinavians, then Germanics, then Europeans.

We just want out our independence, to preserve our languages, culture and national characters and not to be part of a German empire. Which is normal, because Germans also wouldn't want to be part of a Scandinavian or Anglo empire. If there was a pan-Germanic federation instead of the EU, where Germanic nations defended each other and cooperated externally, but their internal characteristic and national peculiarities were respected, probably Scandinavians wouldn't mind joining.

Juthunge
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 09:28 PM
First, I just vented my personal opinion, in a forum. ;)
Don't beat around the bush now. We're obviously all venting our personal opinion on a forum. That very fact makes everything you say open to critique.


Second, the term itself refers to a geographical location. That is awkward, because all other names for Germanic folks refer either to the folk itself, or to a thing (often a weapon) which the folk did use.
You're hopefully joking.
So the Angles("those living at the narrow (water)/bend"), the Bajuwarii("those living in the former lands of the Boii"), the Ampsivarii("those living at the river Ems"), the Angrivarii("those living at the (river) bend") and the Harudes ("the forest dwellers"), to name just a few, weren't Germanic?

Besides, that Scandinavia might actually be connected to the godess Skadi, the "island" part being secondary.


Third, the term has been used, and abused as token for, and has become laden with anti-Germanic, specifically anti-German sentiments. It has thus become a serious obstacle for all movements and endeavors toward Germanic unity and unification.
I don't see how so feel free to enlighten me.


Scandinavia is the birth place and cradle of Germanics,
This is debatable, to be honest. It's likely Germanic speech arose first in northern Germany(but not even that far north) and only secondarily spread to Scandinavia.

Genetically, these peoples were probably closely related from the beginning but even then, they originally spread from Germany to Scandinavia and not the other way round, as IE came from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. Scandinavia instead was, rather thinly, settled by non-IE Hunter Gatherers(by then probably largely in the genetical, not the subsistence sense).

Spjabork
Monday, September 4th, 2017, 09:41 PM
There was an anti-nazi sentiment because of WWII.
The British destroyed the Danish navy two times, in 1801, and in 1807. These two battles effectively, and irretrievably, irrevocably, took Denmark, that means the Danish folk, out of history. Whereas the Germans did never destroy the Danish navy, although they at least three times had the chance to do it.

Why do the Danes not hate the British? Let me guess. Maybe, it has something to do with the jews?? I'm just guessing.

Another type of rivalry is because of Schleswig-Holstein.So, the "Sydslesvig" is more important to the "Skandinavians" (I think Swedes and Norwegians give a damn for Slesvig) than 5 million negroes which are flooding and maybe irreparably destroy "Skandinavia"?

So the Angles("those living at the narrow (water)/bend"), the Bajuwarii("those living in the former lands of the Boii"), the Ampsivarii("those living at the river Ems"), the Angrivarii("those living at the (river) bend") and the Harudes ("the forest dwellers"), to name just a few, weren't Germanic?There was a reason why all these names disappeared.

The "Haruder" are so obscure, and so irrelevant that one might even doubt they existed. About the real original meaning of the name Bai-waren, not "Baju-waren" there is no common agreement. The mere genesis of the folk is utterly obscure. The Amsiwarer now are part and parcel of the Sachsen, and the 'Sachs' was the battle sword of the whole folk, which made them great.

But the point is: all these names, even if taken seriosuly, are subnames, whereas "Skandinavian" is, quite deliberately, meant & understood as a supername, whose sole purpose is to cast disagreement and disunity among Germanics. I think you do know that clearly. You argue with me here just for vanity. ;)

Besides, that Scandinavia might actually be connected to the godess Skadi, the "island" part being secondary.
Yeah, it might actually be, or it might not.

I do judge, and value, and estimate each and every thing according to the real hard use of which it is, or might become, in real hard political struggle.

Sól
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 09:04 PM
The term "skandinavian" should not be used anymore. The folks should be called North Germanics, because this is what they are.

I think that the epithet "North" is already distinction and honorification enough. They can be proud to be the northernmost of all Germanics.
Since when should you, a non-Nordic and non-Scandinavian outsider decide what nomenclature we should use? Accuse us of being anti-Germanic because of using that term? The nerve. Please stick to your own matters and don't poke your nose where it doesn't concern you.

I'm getting tired of this German supremacy from some people on Skadi, you are not the only Germanics. Get a grip and deal with it.

Spjabork
Tuesday, September 5th, 2017, 11:54 PM
Since when should you, a non-Nordic and non-Scandinavian outsider decide what nomenclature we should use? Accuse us of being anti-Germanic because of using that term? The nerve. Please stick to your own matters and don't poke your nose where it doesn't concern you.As far as I know, Iceland is not located in Skandinavia. It is much farer away form there than Germany.

So if I am an "outsider", so are you. If the question does "not concern me", it would concern you even less.

Though I think more Skandinavians do understand German, than Icelandic.

I'm getting tired of this German supremacy from some people on Skadi, you are not the only Germanics. Get a grip and deal with it.There is a reason why we all are called by the others, scientifically and colloquially, Germanics, and not Skandinavianics. ;)

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 03:03 PM
Two terms don't have to exclude each other. All Scandinavians are Germanics but not all Germanics are Scandinavians, much like all Bavarians are by design Germans but not all Germans are Bavarians, contrary to the belief of some romantic German-Americans. ;)


As far as I know, Iceland is not located in Skandinavia. It is much farer away form there than Germany.

This is essentially nitpicking. Proximity or distance prove nothing, no one would dispute that Dutch and Afrikaners are very closely related, ethnically as much as linguistically and that's several thousand kilometres more than between Norway and Iceland. Heck, geographically - or at least tectonically - Iceland isn't even 100% in Europe, but it's always counted as such due to cultural ties. And as a result, the cultural ties to Norway and Denmark make it a Scandinavian country by association and heritage alone.

Icelandic was settled by Norwegian settlers and for centuries - at any time up until approx. the middle of the 14 century - the two idioms remained mutually intelligible. Then a whole variety of things happened on the linguistic end:

The plague reduced literacy in Norway whilst Iceland was basically spared therefrom. Iceland already had vibrant literature, and the first bible translation of 1564 was received as a good one as well, whilst the Norwegian translation was rubbish. Norway was subsequently much more influenced by Danish (and Low German indeed) than Icelandic even though at times they were both under Danish rule and whilst Icelandic even employed a policy of linguistic purism, whose roots are attestable to at least 1609. That's the whole ancestor to the Bokmal/Nynorsk discussion: Everyone (except a few Oslo and Bergen folks) agreed to reduce Danish influence but people weren't willing to exchange it for a standard based on a dialect also not theirs.

Mutual intelligibility is also not an immediate clue. Most Spaniards under the age of 40 might have a better command of English than of French, yet French is a closely related language. :P


Though I think more Skandinavians do understand German, than Icelandic.

Trade relations and/or royal intertwining, as well as geopolitical interests were of course happening much more with Germany as that bulwark in the European centre. Iceland was an agricultural society with under 100,000 people (the 1703 census lists some 50.366 people) that wasn't even home-ruled.

By that argument the Welsh would be Germanic and closer to the English than the Irish, of course too nonsensical an argument to even consider. :P

Matrix
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 03:36 PM
Not all Nords are Germanic, but all true Germanics must be Nords. The "Germanic" populations which you have today are quite mixed. Alpine, Med, Dinaric, Baltic "Germanics" are only cultural and linguistic Germanics, but not racially.

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 6th, 2017, 03:46 PM
Not all Nords are Germanic, but all true Germanics must be Nords.

That's nonsense since current phenotypes and genotypes predate Germanic ethnogenesis.

It'd even still be nonsense if you tried to argue that which would at least phenotypically be a valid (albeit not sound) argument, i.e. to claim that Nordoids and Cro-Magnoids of Northern provenience provide a racial basis for Germanics.

That being said: This topic has been discussed on her umpteen of times, this isn't really the thread for it. This thread is about Scandinavians and the Germanic Nomenclature, not about the racial makeup of different groups of Germanics.

One thing though: Would Egil Skallagrimsson be 'no true Germanic' to you? He is described as "swarthy" by Icelandic terms. ;)

Spjabork
Thursday, September 7th, 2017, 06:39 PM
This thread is about Scandinavians and the Germanic Nomenclature, not about the racial makeup of different groups of Germanics.

Names, in most cases, are given to someone by someone else. For example, my names were given to me by my parents. Now that I have gotten these names, I either may "partly" or "fully" "identify" with them, I may take pride in them, or i may regret and even reject them. Finally, eventually I may want to change them, and ultimately I even may really change them. It depends on what I do think and feel about these "my" names.

What I think and feel about myself comes partly from within me, yet it also -- and to a great extent -- in comes from outside me, and invades, intrudes me, my mind and my soul. It his man-made by others, in order to influence, to weaken and to destroy me.

If -- for example -- all other people around me constantly tell me and remind me that my name is the name of a criminal, of a pervert, of a maniac, of a murderer, of -- for example -- a jew gaser:-O -- then of course this will make me feel uneasy, and the longer the more. I will wish to change my name, even the more so as I do feel completely innocent and having nothing to do with all these accusations.

This has nothing to do with real life, with facts. Yet it has much to do with the inner condition of my inner self.

fjaran
Monday, October 2nd, 2017, 07:52 PM
I learned about the term Germanic mostly from books, history articles, etc. Otherwise, in everyday life in the US people of Norwegian, Swedish or Danish ancestry identify as Scandinavian Americans. Germanic Americans, if used, is associated with Americans of German or Austrian descent. On the other hand, we Americans of Scandinavian descent feel closer to German Americans, Dutch Americans, Anglo-Americans than we do to non-Germanic Americans, even if we don't specifically call it that. So there is some sort of overall Germanic consciousness, but it doesn't really have a name.

English speaking is what confuses the term Germanic for many. In Swedish for example, Germany is Tyskland, Germans are Tyskar, Tyska is the German language. Yet 'germaner' and 'german/germann' means Germanics and Germanic. Germanska språk = Germanic languages. The term does not directly refer to Germany, although Germany is a part of the greater category.

English confuses people since it is the only language that decided to refer to Germany as it does.

Siebenbürgerin
Sunday, June 2nd, 2019, 03:24 AM
I've been reading on Pan-Germanism in Scandinavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germanism#Pan-Germanism_in_Scandinavia), I think it fits in this topic.


The idea of including the North Germanic-speaking Scandinavians into a Pan-German state, sometimes referred to as Pan-Germanicism, was promoted alongside mainstream pan-German ideas. Jacob Grimm adopted Munch's anti-Danish Pan-Germanism and argued that the entire peninsula of Jutland had been populated by Germans before the arrival of the Danes and that thus it could justifiably be reclaimed by Germany, whereas the rest of Denmark should be incorporated into Sweden. This line of thinking was countered by Jens Jacob Asmussen Worsaae, an archaeologist who had excavated parts of Danevirke, who argued that there was no way of knowing the language of the earliest inhabitants of Danish territory. He also pointed out that Germany had more solid historical claims to large parts of France and England, and that Slavs—by the same reasoning—could annex parts of Eastern Germany. Regardless of the strength of Worsaae's arguments, pan-Germanism spurred on the German nationalists of Schleswig and Holstein and led to the First Schleswig War in 1848. In turn, this likely contributed to the fact that Pan-Germanism never caught on in Denmark as much as it did in Norway.[20] Pan-Germanic tendencies were particularly widespread among the Norwegian independence movement. Prominent supporters included Peter Andreas Munch, Christopher Bruun, Knut Hamsun, Henrik Ibsen and Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson. Bjørnson, who wrote the lyrics for the Norwegian national anthem, proclaimed in 1901:


I'm a Pan-Germanist, I'm a Teuton, and the greatest dream of my life is for the South Germanic peoples and the North Germanic peoples and their brothers in diaspora to unite in a fellow confederation.

In the 20th century the German Nazi Party sought to create a Greater Germanic Reich that would include most of the Germanic peoples of Europe within it under the leadership of Germany, including peoples such as the Danes, the Dutch, the Swedes, the Norwegians, and the Flemish within it.

Anti-German Scandinavism surged in Denmark in the 1930s and 1940s in response to the pan-Germanic ambitions of Nazi Germany.

Do Scandinavians know more about it? Is there a sense of brotherhood felt with other Germanics, like the Germans, English, Dutch, etc.?

Þoreiðar
Sunday, June 2nd, 2019, 11:52 AM
Do Scandinavians know more about it? Is there a sense of brotherhood felt with other Germanics, like the Germans, English, Dutch, etc.?Never heard about any Pan-Germanism movement in Norway before, or in Scandinavia for that matter. But it's interesting to see Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson was a proponent, as I'm related to him through his sister. :) On his Wikipedia page, however, it says he was a proponent of Scandinavism in the mid-1800s. But perhaps he changed his mind later on in life.

As for a sense of brotherhood among Scandinavians towards other Germanics, I don't think it is as prominent or conscious as it may have been previously. But there's definitely a sense of familiarity there, greater than the one felt with other European groups. And I've also noticed when I've been backpacking outside of Europe, that Germanics tend to flock together. You usually see smaller groups of Germans, and smaller groups of Scandinavians, and so on, whom easily find each other and stick together. But also larger constellations of these smaller groups. It's very uncommon to see a group of, say, Russians and Scandinavians, or Germans and Spaniards hanging out together and forming a "group". At least in my experience. It's a kind of subtle and subconscious brotherhood, which I don't think very many think deeply about or explicitly act upon. Just a natural tendency to seek like-minded people whom look like themselves.

Volk und Rasse
Friday, June 7th, 2019, 12:00 PM
Do Scandinavians know more about it? Is there a sense of brotherhood felt with other Germanics, like the Germans, English, Dutch, etc.?
There's definitely a subtle subconscious sense of brotherhood with germans. But if you ask me that this idea of Pan-Germanism is somehow "formalized" and there are people out there that you notice that are reading about it? The answer is no, unfortunately.

Víðálfr
Saturday, June 8th, 2019, 01:01 AM
Do Scandinavians know more about it? Is there a sense of brotherhood felt with other Germanics, like the Germans, English, Dutch, etc.?
From my own experience in Scandinavia (so I'm going to be very subjective), when telling people about my German ancestry, very often with the purpose to see if they have any sense of brotherhood as you mentioned, some of them consider that "all people came from Africa", while some others have a sense of identity as Germanics, and so a sense of such a brotherhood. But there are also people, in Norway, who seem to not like Germans because of the 'second world war occupation'. I've got some not so nice reactions saying that I am partially German for that reason, and also I've heard people saying bad things about the German occupation and about Germans for the same reason.

However, my pleasant surprise was to really be considered as part of their people by some who have this sense of brotherhood. I didn't expect that, so it was a surprise!

With 'the occupation' problem, it's the same as in Romania: some people think nice about Germans, while some others say nasty things because of Transylvania, Bukowina, The Royal family, or whatever reasons they find to not like Germans. The same in Norway: there are some haters for whatever reasons.

By the way, my ex, who is supposed to have German ancestry too (but not so dominant as in my case), told me he used to feel bad about it (mainly because of issues like Transylvania), and he is still not so enthusiastic about it. In Norway there was the strong discrimination against tyskerjenter (https://www.norgeshistorie.no/andre-verdenskrig/artikler/1757-de-norske-tyskerjentene-under-og-etter-krigen.html) (the Norwegian women who had children or relationships with Germans during 'the German occupation') immediately after the second world war, and also against their children. Many of them had to leave Norway after the war, but for those who remained it was not so nice in many cases. And in total it was at least 10% of the female Norwegian population in their most fertile years (18-35 years old) that were considered tyskerjenter, so who were supposed to have had relationships (and sometimes children) with Germans... Some say there were between 30 000 - 50 000 tyskerjenter, and about 10 000 children born with a German father... The way many Norwegians treated them after the war is considered a dark chapter of the Norwegian history. These women didn't break any laws, but they were treated as if they did, sometimes in horrible ways...

That was a couple of decades ago, but some people still tend to have some issues about Germans... However... let's see the bright side: fortunately, some Scandinavians have a sense of a Germanic brotherhood! :sun

Þoreiðar
Sunday, June 9th, 2019, 01:56 AM
In Norway there was the strong discrimination against tyskerjenter (https://www.norgeshistorie.no/andre-verdenskrig/artikler/1757-de-norske-tyskerjentene-under-og-etter-krigen.html) (the Norwegian women who had children or relationships with Germans during 'the German occupation') immediately after the second world war, and also against their children. Many of them had to leave Norway after the war, but for those who remained it was not so nice in many cases. And in total it was at least 10% of the female Norwegian population in their most fertile years (18-35 years old) that were considered tyskerjenter, so who were supposed to have had relationships (and sometimes children) with Germans... Some say there were between 30 000 - 50 000 tyskerjenter, and about 10 000 children born with a German father... The way many Norwegians treated them after the war is considered a dark chapter of the Norwegian history. These women didn't break any laws, but they were treated as if they did, sometimes in horrible ways...The topic women fraternizing and coupling with an invading enemy perhaps deserves a thread of its own. The numbers of Norwegian women having relationships with German soldiers and officers is estimated from 30 000 all the way up to 120 000, depending on which historian one asks. And the Norwegian population only totalled around three million at the time.

I don't have much of a problem with intra-Germanic relationships, but the magnitude and conditions under which this phenomenon took place, doesn't make me think very favorable of the women who got involved in such relationships. Even though there were no deep-seated hostility between Norway and Germany at the time (and never really have been), they were still an invading and occupying force in our country, and the women should have acted accordingly, out of respect for their own Nation. It's not like there was a shortage of Norwegian men anyhow. Only around 10 000 Norwegians died under the occupation, which included women and children as well. And only a small number of Norwegian men enlisted to join the war abroad.

A lot of the women who coupled with German soldiers were often of the poorer layers of society, and likely saw it as a way to "level up" on the socio-economic latter. Didn't turn out so well, and I can't say I have a lot of sympathy, to be honest.

Víðálfr
Sunday, June 9th, 2019, 01:10 PM
The topic women fraternizing and coupling with an invading enemy perhaps deserves a thread of its own.
I agree that this might deserve a topic on its own, but Germany as an 'invading enemy' to Norway? I don't know if I can agree with this one...



The numbers of Norwegian women having relationships with German soldiers and officers is estimated from 30 000 all the way up to 120 000, depending on which historian one asks. And the Norwegian population only totalled around three million at the time.
Thank you for the extra information! I've heard that too, but couldn't find a source to quote this time. The numbers were huge, indeed, compared to the total population.



I don't have much of a problem with intra-Germanic relationships
Exactly my point! I am pro such things, especially if both sides are very intelligent or possess other valuable qualities worth spreading to the next generations! And if people love each other and can get along well, why not? It's important to have good families and good offspring.

This happened a lot during history anyway, so it's not just a recent phenomenon. There were migrations since ancient times, and mixed families within the same meta-ethnicity...



but the magnitude and conditions under which this phenomenon took place, doesn't make me think very favorable of the women who got involved in such relationships.
This is debatable! What was the whole purpose of this? I think it was for a higher purpose...



Even though there were no deep-seated hostility between Norway and Germany at the time (and never really have been), they were still an invading and occupying force in our country, and the women should have acted accordingly, out of respect for their own Nation. It's not like there was a shortage of Norwegian men anyhow.
I can understand your stance on this, and I've heard arguments like these many times, also related to other cases, for example in Romania, about mixed families, German-Romanian. It's usually about the women who were Romanian and the men who were another ethnicity, and men often judge them and dare to call them whores for not marrying and having children with Romanian men, but with 'foreigners', for example Germans. It's usually men who complain about such things, for losing their women to better men from other ethnicities. I can understand the reasons, of course, but I cannot accept such insults because it's also the case of my Daco-Romanian great-grandmother who married a German man. I am very proud of my German side, so I cannot accept such accusations! Usually I just ignore them, because the debates on these issues can be endless, finding arguments on both sides...

Men tend to judge women for such decisions, without trying to understand WHY they take such decisions.

Of course, as you are a Norwegian man, you have another point of view here, and another perspective. As I also have my own. :)



A lot of the women who coupled with German soldiers were often of the poorer layers of society, and likely saw it as a way to "level up" on the socio-economic latter. Didn't turn out so well, and I can't say I have a lot of sympathy, to be honest.
Why judging things in barely black and white like that? I am sure there were other reasons too and not all women did that just to have a better social or economical status themselves. There is love too, for example... and often people also think about the future of their children, if they consider having a family and children.

However, I am glad that not all of them were treated bad like that, fortunately, and not all lebensborn children either. There were exceptions too.

It's interesting to hear your opinion, though, because I've always wondered why this happened, since I've heard about it. I'd be curious to hear opinions from other Norwegians too, both men and women.

Hersir
Sunday, June 9th, 2019, 01:57 PM
Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson in 1901:
– Jeg er Pangerman, jeg er Teuton og mitt Livs største Ønske er, at Sydgermanerne og Nordgermanerne og deres udvandrede Brødre maa finde hverandre i et Forbund.

"I am pan-Germanic, I am Teuton and my greatest wish is to find southern and northern Germanics and their expatriate brothers in a federation."

Two other Norwegians, Ibsen and Hamsun also in part supported this idea. The brothers Grimm and later Wagner were some of the key persons behind this idea in Germany.

Þoreiðar
Sunday, June 9th, 2019, 02:38 PM
I agree that this might deserve a topic on its own, but Germany as an 'invading enemy' to Norway? I don't know if I can agree with this one...Well, they literally invaded Norway, with soldiers, weapons and armor, and occupied the country by force for five years. :P So I don't see much of a basis to contest that. I'm not saying the relationship between Norway and Germany was anything like that between Germany and France, or Germany and Britain. But they were still never invited to ship 250.000 troops to our country and subjugate the Norwegian people.


There were migrations since ancient times, and mixed families within the same meta-ethnicity...Hardly involving 10% of the fertile female populations. Such a magnitude usually only happens during war/occupation.


This is debatable! What was the whole purpose of this? I think it was for a higher purpose...And what purpose would that be? The creation of a Pan-Germanic People? I doubt that. Even the Wehrmacht made official statements, advocating against German soldier having relationships and making children with foreign women (including Norwegian women), as there were a disproportionate amount of single and widowed women back in Germany.

Also, a lot of the German soldiers supposedly already had wives and kids back home. And from the reports of the internment camps in the wake of the war, up to one third of the girls who were sent there for having relationships with Germans, had some kind of STD (normally syphilis or gonorrhea). So I don't think we should glorify the supposed sanctity of these relationship too much.


I can understand your stance on this, and I've heard arguments like these many times, also related to other cases, for example in Romania, about mixed families, German-Romanian. It's usually about the women who were Romanian and the men who were another ethnicity, and men often judge them and dare to call them whores for not marrying and having children with Romanian men, but with 'foreigners', for example Germans. It's usually men who complain about such things, for losing their women to better men from other ethnicities.I think the shaming and condemnation of women coupling outside their own Nation, comes from a sense of perceived disloyalty to responsibilities towards the survival and well-being of their Nation. Women, on the whole, decide which groups of men have children, and which groups doesn't. If a Nation loses 10% of their fertile women to outside groups every generation, it hampers the Nation's fertility rate by 20% every passing generation. It makes all the sense in the World, for a Nationalist, to be opposed to that. However, if it happens on a small scale, it doesn't matter much, and could even be beneficial.


I can understand the reasons, of course, but I cannot accept such insults because it's also the case of my Daco-Romanian great-grandmother who married a German man. I am very proud of my German side, so I cannot accept such accusations! Usually I just ignore them, because the debates on these issues can be endless, finding arguments on both sides...I'm glad you find pride in your heritage, and wouldn't want it any other way. But likewise you must understand why people who want to preserve their own distinct Nation disprove of ethnic mixing happening on a large scale.


Why judging things in barely black and white like that? I am sure there were other reasons too and not all women did that just to have a better social or economical status themselves. There is love too, for example... and often people also think about the future of their children, if they consider having a family and children.Climbing the socio-economic latter is a way to think about the future of one's children. I don't think that this was the only reason for these women, though. Surely genuine love happened as well. But there are several different factors which speak against this being the main motivation. Firstly, there's the language barrier. And then there's the social barrier - young women and soldiers rarely inhabit the same social circles, so they would need to be specifically sought out. Obviously, there was something which drew these women away from establishing relationships with Norwegian men, where they would have met none of these obstacles, even when there were obvious risks involved.