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View Full Version : Long Beards and Headscarfs - Rural Germanic or Islamic Practice?



Sigurd
Wednesday, January 28th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Note: Split from here (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=111604)


I prefer shaved. A little facial hair is acceptable but long beards are yuck. They remind me of Muslims and Jews.

I am sure that Felix Dahn, Friedrich Ludwing Jahn, Friedrich Engels (as virtually the only non-Jewish Communist intellectual), Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson and to some (lesser, for the lesser beard) extent Wolfgang Hohlbein would agree that long beards are an exhibition of Islam and Judaism:

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/72/12472-004-6570D594.jpg http://www.mtv1817-fussballabteilung.de/bilder/bilder%20historie/Turnvater%20Jahn.jpg http://www.falkensee.net/schulen/real/engels.jpg http://www.geocities.com/odinistlibrary/OLArticles/Articles/sveinbj.jpeg http://www.aigner-buch.de/images/hohlbein.jpg

Thusnelda
Wednesday, January 28th, 2009, 05:39 PM
These beards are too long even for my preferences! :D I prefer the "Aragorn" approach.

Siebenbürgerin
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 12:15 AM
I am sure that Felix Dahn, Friedrich Ludwing Jahn, Friedrich Engels (as virtually the only non-Jewish Communist intellectual), Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson and to some (lesser, for the lesser beard) extent Wolfgang Hohlbein would agree that long beards are an exhibition of Islam and Judaism:
I don't think that's what she implied. She said it reminds her of Jews and Muslims. I've understood it as a psychological reaction to long beards. ;) To me long beards like the ones you posted have a different psychological effect. They remind me of Orthodox priests, and they're too long for my taste. It's not I'm saying men shouldn't keep long beards like those, but I don't find them attractive from a personal point of view. :P

Sigurd
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 02:49 AM
Heh, I didn't speak about attractiveness or anything. Personally I don't find men with long beards particularly attractive either ---- alright, alright, that may have to something to do with my being male myself, but let's see this from an objective point of view... :rofl

I know that she said that it reminded her of it, I still felt though that it was important to point out that long beards had a tradition with our folk, and that many of our intellectuals, or culturally valuable people throughout the ages, especially in the 19th and 20th centuries had long beards, beyond the Viking age.

If I see a long beard, then the last thing it reminds me of is a Muslim or a Jew. Like you stressed, with some it may have the "priest" or "old wise man" connotation, incidentally. But unless they have the fitting complexion or attire, I don't tend to associate it with Jews and don't see why anyone would, unless they've not concerned themselves enough with the history of our folk.

I'm fully aware that I tried to post the extremes - but then again she pointed out that long beards reminded her of Jews and Muslims. But just because the Kebab man around the corner has a long beard doesn't mean that everyone with a long beard automatically reminds one of a Muslim or a Jew. The example of Friedrich Ludwig Jahn, the "Turnvater" who had Nationalist credentials himself as a pred. Dinarid German was to effectively contradict the Jewish part - he doesn't remind me of a Jew despite his heavily curled long beard, anyhow.

I just found it funny coming from the Ossi/Bärin camp --- who tried their best to argue that women shaving wasn't a Semitic practice, but then go out of their way to point out that supposedly long beards had something to do with Judaism or Islam, which I personally find offensive to many, many German(ic) people throughout the ages.

I apologise if this post is a little frank in tone, but then again it's a Wednesday night and thus I take that right. Though I do hope that even though I am not particularly "sober as a judge", that the last thing I've lost is my relative eloquency. :P

Bärin
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 04:24 AM
I don't care what the tradition was centuries ago. I don't live centuries ago. I live in the 21st century, where professional blades exist. In the 21st century, the "tradition" for Germanics is to shave or leave a tidy mustache or short beard. Tradition demands Muslims and Jews not to shave their beards, so in the 21st century most people in the world who keep long beards are Muslims and Jews. And yes, that's what long beards remind me of, like it or not. :)

Sigurd
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 06:30 AM
@
She just expressed her personal preference for facial hair or lack thereof as a woman,

... which is alright and respected. People have different opinions, and I'm not offended by someone not liking beards, even though I have one (albeit a comparedly short one and not a full one) myself. You can't mess with people's preferences (within reason), so that's not the point I was getting at. Hel, if she likes a man to follow the Roman custom of being completely clean shaven, that's entirely up to her.


Open your own one or post in the other one if you're interested to debate the "Germanicness" of beards. But I don't want this turned off topic.

... which she actually started. She said it reminded her of Muslims and Jews, which I considered a misinformed statement, and felt like making a little snippy comment about, much like Valkyrie's "Britney Spears" comment in the other thread. The other one was just early morning rambling. :shrug


And the men who voted in my poll, please don't ruin my results. Can't you read?

I did not vote in the poll, so I count myself free of blame. For the others, well, they'll be prompted forthwith to specify their opinions in the homosexuality threads, alternatively shall be suggested to take a literacy test. :P


I don't care what the tradition was centuries ago. I don't live centuries ago. I live in the 21st century

I think I'm copying that to a personal archive of mine. That line might yet come in handy at some point in time. :wsg


In the 21st century, the "tradition" for Germanics is to shave or leave a tidy mustache or short beard.

You'd be surprised at how many men, even in their twenties, wear full beards out of choice, some even at considerable length. ;)


And yes, that's what long beards remind me of, like it or not.

Fair enough then, though I still think it's a bit of a shame that you have that feeling. It's even a shame that head scarfs of all types are immediately associated with Muslim women even though they were oft traditionally worn by farming women in the larger German cultural area, and still are to this day, but Hel, can't have anything. :shrug

I'm still curious though whether the men posted remind you of Jews and Muslims for their beards? ;) Or if you see an old man in the countryside with a bit of a beard. Maybe I don't conceive it as a Muslim/Jew thing, but as more of a rural, traditional thing because I believe you've said before that you're more of a city girl, whilst I'm more of a countryside boy. Even when I then lived on the extreme outskirts, I think the first time I saw a Muslim, Jew or even a full Negro was when I was 9 or 10 or so. :)

Anyway as I stated, it was intended as more of a snippy comment initially anyhow. :)

Bärin
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 10:11 AM
... which she actually started.
No, I didn't say I wanted to debate whether leaving a beard grow is Germanic or not. I said it reminds me of Muslims and Jews. That's my personal reaction to it. Others think of Orthodox priests or Santa, as they're saying in this thread. It's an instinctual reaction. I wouldn't have thought of the German men you posted as Jews if I lived in their age, because it wasn't as customary to shave then. :confused


Fair enough then, though I still think it's a bit of a shame that you have that feeling. It's even a shame that head scarfs of all types are immediately associated with Muslim women even though they were oft traditionally worn by farming women in the larger German cultural area, and still are to this day, but Hel, can't have anything. :shrug
Yes now that you brought it up if I see a woman with a headscarf I'll wonder if she isn't a Muslim woman too. It doesn't matter to me what the fashion was centuries ago. In the 21st century, most women who wear scarves are Muslim.

Sigurd
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I wouldn't have thought of the German men you posted as Jews if I lived in their age, because it wasn't as customary to shave then. :confused

I think it was just as customary as shaving is nowadays. That shaving OR wearing a beard was not practiced a fair while ago is a gross misinformation. Great German thinkers from a similar period, in fact a little before, which were clean-shaven: Goethe, Schiller, Brothers Grimm

http://www.fsprc.ch/de/images/stories/accueil/Goethe.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Friedrich_schiller.jpg/439px-Friedrich_schiller.jpg http://www.onlinekunst.de/februarzwei/24/doppelportrait_grimm.jpg

It's originally a custom which came from the Roman legionnaires, and it seems that it would have been adopted into these countries by either Roman rule and/or the conversion to Christianity. I won't deny that shaving/beards went in or out of fashion, but to assume that shaving was not customary (albeit oft by using a shaving knife) is wrong, too. ;)


In the 21st century, most women who wear scarves are Muslim.

Yes, as I said - it probably has to do with being around the countryside for the most part of my youth. In fact, I'd wager to say that even in the 21st century, most women who wear a headscarf are indigenous - it's almost an uniform part of the working attire of farming women, whether young or old, as it helps to keep the hair out of the way. It reminds you as a city girl of a Muslim woman, it reminds me as a countryside boy of a farming woman. :shrug

Imperator X
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 03:36 AM
I always wished I could grow a full beard, but alas I can only grow a GoaT, the hair on my cheeks doesn't connect right and has too many patches. Maybe eating bull balls will help... :D

Hrodnand
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 04:16 AM
Maybe eating bull balls will help... :D

But meanwhile check this one out: http://www.beards.org/grow.php ;)

forkbeard
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 08:34 AM
I can understand someone not liking beards for many reasons, which I don't mind. I grow mine unrestricted for many personal and ideological reasons.
If my beard were dark or grey I might trim or shave. Because it is a good colour and I get so many compliments, interest, challenges, I leave mine.

From an evolutionary biological point of view it is a male threat signal. It scares off other males and threatens them. It says I have more testosterone than you, therefore more aggression. (NB. Beards interfere with repirators so are generally banned in the military except for generals and the king. In the French military only pioneers are permitted beards)
The down side is appearing like a rogue, aggressive male will also scare females but since I am married it should not matter. I find that once women get over their fear they love it and start twirling it, playing with it and plaiting it. I don't like itthough when strange women try to snog me straight away.
Hair colour has also ultimately arisen as a way of species recognition ("The green Beard effect of Dawkins"). Common genes identify kin. A display of ones genes is therefore very much a statement of advertising ones species. I see absence of beard as deracinated, as is short hair. (unless ones profession demands it)
I admit I have heard someone say "Is thst a Jew". Its lucky they don't say it to my face. Perhaps it gives me some protection? Perhaps it puts me at risk from random attack from a Muslim? I'd like to experience that.

Grimsteinr
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 03:36 PM
I wear a full Beard and long moustache.. I keep it neatly trimmed to a 4 1/2 to 5 inch length.I keep the moustache neatly trimmed around my mouth.
It has been long since 1998. My DSW Sharon suggested I grow it longer.
I have worn a Beard since 1970. But, I'd kept it trimmed to a short Van Dyke
style. I like it better the way it is now.My DSWife likes it.
We have been together many years.
I am a Gothi, to an Asatru Kindred. I know several other active Gothar in the American Asatru community, who wear Beards. I am one of the Grey Beards.
Is it necessaryto wear a Beard? No. It's personal preference. I think it sets one apart.

Oswiu
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 05:16 PM
They remind me of Orthodox priests, and they're too long for my taste.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3628/1468414nj5.jpg
Bless you, My Child.

How'd'yer like this, She Bear?
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2188/arappetravelikogovm3.jpg
I went to my Auntie's house dressed in the Arab thing once, just to wind her up, and - I was very proud of her - she had a real foul look on her face, opening the door.
"What do you want?" she growled, before she realised it was me! :P

Muslims' beards seem rather different to those sported by Europeans. Friends down in London even joke about 'religious beards' when referring to the Muslim version. The stress is on length at all costs, with no attempt to tidy it. They are often worn by overly zealous young men who haven't the ability to grow a full beard yet, and so are patchy uneven messes of beards.

forkbeard
Friday, January 30th, 2009, 11:39 PM
The stipulated Muslim beard length is as much as fills a fist below the chin. This was practiced to cut their beards short to differentiate them from Jews. I think beards are something that is part of Germanic culture and something for us to reclaim.
I will stop growing mine when it is this length
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/_barbarossa.jpg
Teutonic Granmaster
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/albert.jpg
Thor effigy.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/thor.jpg
At present mine is this length
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/fork.jpg

Headscarfes. Its
a good anti-muslim propaganda case but they don't bother me. My mum always wore a scarfe and still does at times. That generation did. Scarfes have been part of our culture also.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0003-1.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0004.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0005-1.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0007-1.jpg
What is wrong with Muslims is their negresence. If I remember correctly the Muslims adopted the headscarfe fully when they settled Zanzibar to hide their women from black africans.

johnereb
Saturday, January 31st, 2009, 01:55 AM
I've had a beard since 1985. It's mostly white now and I keep it trimmed these days but in times passed I have let it grow rather full. When I wore it full in the late 80s folks would call me Redbeard.

harl
Saturday, January 31st, 2009, 02:29 AM
I'm considering growing a full beard. There is nothing more leonine and possibly intimidating than a full blown beard.

Next month is Facial Hair February. Don't forget.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2261/2273207182_df5d325a15_o.jpg

Doesn't look like a Jew or Muslim to me.


If I remember correctly the Muslims adopted the headscarfe fully when they settled Zanzibar to hide their women from black africans.

I have never heard of this before. Source?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

Siebenbürgerin
Saturday, January 31st, 2009, 11:05 AM
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3628/1468414nj5.jpg
Bless you, My Child.

Hmm, you'd need to grow a few more years and look like an authentic Orthodox priest. :P I love the photo by the way. The black and white makes it look like an eerie setting. Although I'm not liking the Orthodox religion, I find the architecture fascinating.

Oswiu, is an example of a man who looks better with beard in my view. ;)

Anyway, I don't think anyone would argue a person like Marco from the ban Nightwish looks like a Muslim or Orthodox priest!

http://www.rage-on.de/images/studio/intothelight/intothelight_20.jpg

For me a short beard is acceptable.

Now about the headscarves. The headscarf is a traditional part of our folk costume.

http://www.siebenbuerger-bw.de/buch/sachsen/S306a.jpg http://www.siebenbuerger-bw.de/buch/sachsen/S306.jpg

But it's also a church habit and Orthodox habit, too. The women who enter the church must cover their heads with a headscarf. In Romania it's still a habit in the village for rural women to wear headscarves, of all nationalities. Even in the city it can be seen but there it predominates with the old ladies only.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/144/369171721_3ba9b506e2.jpg

Anyway, the point should be, some habits like keeping or shaving the hair, putting on a headscarf, exist in many cultures, without having to originate in a single one and be borrowed. Isn't it normal if the peoples live in a hot area like desert to wear large clothes to cover their bodies and especially heads to protect them from the sun's direct action? Same if the people work in the field like the farmers for long periods, they're in danger of being affected by the sun. That's why the farmer men wear hats and farmer women wear headscarves.

Sissi
Monday, February 16th, 2009, 02:57 AM
Headscarves were typical of the German rural area. Women wore them often.

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_klinker1.gif

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_louyot.gif

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_koeckert.gif

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_groeber5.gif

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_groeber.gif

Long beards were common for men of all social classes.

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_best.gif

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25830/1_Museum_Andreas_Hofer2.jpg

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25905/8_scan0005.jpg

Oswiu
Monday, February 16th, 2009, 04:55 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25905/8_scan0005.jpg

Beards are useful to blacksmiths. The amount of frizzle you get helps to judge the heat. A Smith in Pskov told me this. :thumbup

Sigurd
Monday, February 16th, 2009, 05:43 PM
"28 hairs singed. Forge is thus at 560°C." LOL! :rofl

Patrioten
Monday, February 16th, 2009, 05:53 PM
For anyone to say that a beard is a foreign feature is simply ridicilous. Here's how you distinguish between a Germanic beard and a Muslim beard: a Germanic beard is worn by a Germanic man, a Muslim beard is worn by a Muslim man. So, the location of the beard decides whether it is Germanic or not. With female headscarfs it's easy too, Germanic (or European)women do not carry hijabs, they would have had a different appearance. This is why for example it's hard to confuse an old Russian lady with a scarf over her head with a Muslim woman, you can easily tell what is what. Just as we all carry clothes on our bodies, there are other features that unite us but which are different inbetween us in shape/form/colour and are easy to distinguish from one another with regards to their origin.

prodeutsch
Saturday, June 20th, 2009, 07:51 AM
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/anglosaxon_warrior/th_threeweekhuntingbeard.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/anglosaxon_warrior/?action=view&current=threeweekhuntingbeard.jpg)

Well I don't think I am in any danger of being identified as a muslim or jew. Then again?

Nachtengel
Saturday, June 20th, 2009, 08:18 AM
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/anglosaxon_warrior/th_threeweekhuntingbeard.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/anglosaxon_warrior/?action=view&current=threeweekhuntingbeard.jpg)

Well I don't think I am in any danger of being identified as a muslim or jew. Then again?

Long Beards and Headscarfs - Rural Germanic or Islamic Practice?
;)

prodeutsch
Sunday, June 21st, 2009, 03:09 AM
;)

Well I guess since I am in my back woods during hunting season I should have said, "Rural Practise." ;)

SpearBrave
Sunday, June 21st, 2009, 10:17 PM
Beards are useful to blacksmiths. The amount of frizzle you get helps to judge the heat. A Smith in Pskov told me this. :thumbup

I used to have a long beard and then one day I was bending over the anvil and it went "WHOFF" and now I keep it short.:D

Torvald
Monday, June 22nd, 2009, 05:22 PM
I am growing my beard out and keep it trimmed and well kept. As it shows my heritage and people like the color of my beard. Several times I have been asked if I dye it because it is Red, brown and like a bleach blond. When they find out it is natural they compliment me and are amazed.

Waldstein
Monday, June 22nd, 2009, 06:01 PM
The Longobards ("Men with long beards", that's what they were called by the Romans) were a Germanic tribe inhabiting Northern Italy in antiquity.
Today's name of the northern Italian province Lombardia (Lombardy) is derivated from this tribe's name.

Therefore, long beards can be considered as typically Germanic; at least for ancient times.

triedandtru
Monday, June 22nd, 2009, 06:13 PM
It is quite simple. It depends on the sort of man wearing the beard, and what type of scarf/woman is wearing the headscarf.

Nachtengel
Monday, June 22nd, 2009, 10:13 PM
Light pigmented Jew with beard.

http://www.oliviamunn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rabbi_weiss.jpg

I wonder if he'd still look Jewish or Europid if he cut it.

þeudiskaz
Friday, August 14th, 2009, 03:44 PM
Beards, to me, are a sign of manhood. They are, after all, a measure of testosterone, and some level of willpower (the itchiness that disappears after a week seems to conquer quite a few).

I wear a beard as a symbol of this manhood, as well as a symbol of my Germanic heritage.

Plus they look badass, clearly superior to the unshaven face. http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff60/brentjungclaus/Beardedsmile.jpg

Edit: I haven't trimmed, or shaven for about a year (excepting for the center of my moustache, which irritates my wife when we kiss) the sides of my moustache are un-trimmed as well. My beard is ~1-2 feet shorter than I would ideally prefer, but it is long enough to find me in good standing, especially in today's metrosexual society.

Sigurd
Friday, August 14th, 2009, 04:41 PM
My beard is ~1-2 feet shorter than I would ideally prefer, but it is long enough to find me in good standing, especially in today's metrosexual society.

So what you're aiming for is the type of beard this man had? ;)

http://17.media.tumblr.com/6xks0Ubbv7di0b5gyyWboLjX_400.jpg

velvet
Friday, August 14th, 2009, 04:58 PM
http://17.media.tumblr.com/6xks0Ubbv7di0b5gyyWboLjX_400.jpg

:D

yeah, I was wondering about the feet-long beard too.
Erlkönig, would you mind to post a photo of you, please? :wsg

þeudiskaz
Friday, August 14th, 2009, 11:41 PM
Anything for you velvet! ;)

I actually have a few different ones in a classification thread, I'll link to that.

These are pictures of me (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=125961&highlight=Der_Erlkoenig). At the moment it's closer to the first one, and the last two, those are the most recent taken.

Sigurd, nah, not that long, but long enough to get a 3-5 braids of decent length, I'd like to hang charms, from the braids ideally. If you guys can't tell, I'm a bit of a beard-ophile.

Sardonicus
Sunday, August 16th, 2009, 02:15 AM
I always wished I could grow a full beard, but alas I can only grow a GoaT, the hair on my cheeks doesn't connect right and has too many patches. Maybe eating bull balls will help... :D

Have patience, my dear fellow. Patience will bring you roses and hair on your cheeks. :ignome

Nagelfar
Saturday, August 22nd, 2009, 09:00 AM
But meanwhile check this one out: http://www.beards.org/grow.php ;)

The author of that website seems to have a security issue about his beard. ;) I grew a beard around the age of 22 that was full and several inches long. My beard is surprisingly straight with one long 'wave' to it, it is not very curly like most men's beard's: perfect for the extremely long beard type; my mother's male roommate had a beard that was greyish-white and over a foot long, but he shaved it off; it is the venerable wizened look; and he was a erudite character for sure it fit him. Mine however the mustache area grows out odd and wants to curl over my lip, I must either trim it or wax it, it won't stay to either side naturally even if trained, the hair is too straight and large...

...and my beard, though it is full, naturally forks, the hair at the very middle area of my chin stops growing, or slows down exponentially, at about an inch and a half, and the hair on either side of it continues, so that I have two halves of a beard an inch apart from each other but are full up to my cheeks. The things you'd never find out if you don't try growing a long beard at least once ;P


My beard is ~1-2 feet shorter than I would ideally prefer, but it is long enough to find me in good standing, especially in today's metrosexual society.

The difficulty is: what drives most men as to the trends in this is what women prefer ;)

Hersir
Saturday, August 22nd, 2009, 01:25 PM
So what you're aiming for is the type of beard this man had? ;)

http://17.media.tumblr.com/6xks0Ubbv7di0b5gyyWboLjX_400.jpg

Hans Langseth, norwegian man :thumbup He is from the same place as my father. When Hans died, his beard was measured to 5,33 meters.
Hans Langseth's beard can now be seen at the Smithsonian Institution.

Reynard
Sunday, August 23rd, 2009, 08:44 AM
I used to wear a full beard until quite recently. It's interesting how people react to it. When I was 19-20 girls would use it as a conversation piece and i could usually get into a hair care conversation!!! I can't count the number of times i heard the opening line "I've never kissed a man with a beard".

On the negative aspect people tend to assume you are 20 years older than you are.

I shaved mine off in January and received so many positive compliments than before. currently clean shaven but am always tempted to regrow!

I suppose the question is, did i look Muslim?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa172/johnny5213/assorted29032.jpg

þeudiskaz
Sunday, August 23rd, 2009, 02:24 PM
currently clean shaven but am always tempted to regrow!

I suppose the question is, did i look Muslim?

The helmet gives you a very muslim look. Nah, just kidding, of course you don't! ;)

You should absolutely grow your beard again! I hear a lot of people that say that I'd look better without mine (like they'd even know, few people besides my family have known me long enough to have known me pre-beard), but I refuse to give in to the whimsy of modern fashion. My cultural ancestors wore beards and I intend personally, to honor that culture. Plus beards are just badass. :thumbup

Centaur
Monday, January 31st, 2011, 03:35 PM
Dudes, I had a thick beard about 1 1/2 years old... I got in a small grapple fight (first time in decades?) and some guy ripped out one side... I'm just saying... Fights do happen, maybe it's better to shave? Then again, maybe I'm just trying to justify my great loss :~( I would probably have rather had my nose broken.