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Teuton
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 07:02 AM
(first of all, if this is the wrong sub-forum, sorry, I'm quite useless at choosing the right sub-forum)

After a little research, I have found that Charlemagne was quite er...prolific.

I would like to know, has anyone ever tried to trace linage to Charlemagne in the modern era? I mean, going by the the fact that he had 20 children, there must be quite a few people with his blood in their veins.

Does anyone have info on this topic?
Thanks in advance.

Psychonaut
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 07:16 AM
I'm sure plenty of folks on this board could (if they do enough research) trace at least one genealogical line to Charlemagne. I've got two definite lines and one probably line that trace to Charlemagne, both through Robert of France (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/121352/Robert-de-France-count-of-Clermont) and Louis IX of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_of_France).

TheGreatest
Thursday, January 29th, 2009, 08:59 AM
We have something like 120 million Grandparents going back to the 800's.... :D

JanetinUSA
Saturday, March 7th, 2009, 10:52 PM
(first of all, if this is the wrong sub-forum, sorry, I'm quite useless at choosing the right sub-forum)

After a little research, I have found that Charlemagne was quite er...prolific.

I would like to know, has anyone ever tried to trace linage to Charlemagne in the modern era? I mean, going by the the fact that he had 20 children, there must be quite a few people with his blood in their veins.

Does anyone have info on this topic?
Thanks in advance.
I am a direct descendant of Charlemagne through Robert Bruce "King of Scotland". My lineage has many royal figures in it along with common working people. What info are you looking for??

Gardisten
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Have you seen this link?
http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Descendants_of_Charlemagne

It's far from complete, but it's a start. The thing is there appear to be "known" descendants only from five of his offspring.

There is also a three volume publication entitled "Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants" originally published in the 1940s, reprinted several times, but now out of print.

velvet
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 10:48 PM
That page states that Barack Obama is also a descendant of Charlemagne :-O

Renwein
Sunday, July 12th, 2009, 11:56 PM
That page states that Barack Obama is also a descendant of Charlemagne :-O

It shouldn't be a suprise, he is only half african after all.

according to Wiki his mother's ancestry is:


Dunham's heritage consists mostly of English ancestors, and smaller numbers of Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French, Swiss and German ancestors, who settled in the American colonies during the 17th and 18th centuries.

plus the notorious 'Cherokee in the woodpile' that all Americans seem to claim they have ;):

According to oral history, Dunham's maternal grandmother had a full-blooded Cherokee ancestor, although no recorded evidence has been found to prove or disprove this claim.[29]

while reading her bio, it seems after she married Obama's father (who was already married), she later married an Indonesian man. A woman of taste, to be sure :oanieyes

Huginn ok Muninn
Monday, July 13th, 2009, 12:43 AM
plus the notorious 'Cherokee in the woodpile' that all Americans seem to claim they have ;):


Not ALL ;)

The least Germanic ancestor I could find was a Great Great Great Grandmother who came from France (and that was Normandy I believe.) The rest are German, Norwegian, and English. I am quite happy not to have any other crap tainting my bloodline.

Gardisten
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 01:40 AM
Me neither. Unless there was a migration long ago that I've never heard about. Like them Scotish-Prussians... :D

As for Obama, as far as I can see that hasn't been corroborated and genealogy on that website is not complete. Whatever the case, if he's related to Charlemagne than perhaps I am as well, but I don't think that this can be proven since the records in Germany I think are not as complete as in England.

SpearBrave
Thursday, July 16th, 2009, 02:02 AM
I do not have any "Indian" blood in me either and I am proud of it. Many Americans claim to have "Indian" blood but most of the time it can not be proven.
That whole thing might stem from anti-germanics or the multi-cultural movement. It is like " Hey look at me I'm not white I'm Indian" is cool or something. Well it is not cool in my book.

Zuid-Vlaming
Monday, August 10th, 2009, 03:42 PM
We have something like 120 million Grandparents going back to the 800's.... :D

lol... Here's a bit of info about "pedigree collapse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FPedigree_collapse)


Pedigree collapse is a term created by Robert C. Gunderson (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FRobert_C._Gunderson) to describe how reproduction between two individuals who knowingly or unknowingly share an ancestor causes the family tree of their offspring to be smaller than it could be.

Without pedigree collapse, a person's ancestor tree is a binary tree (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FBinary_tree), formed by the person, the parents, grandparents, and so on. However, the number of individuals in such a tree grows exponentially (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FExponential_growth) and will eventually become impossibly high. For example, a single individual alive today would over 30 generations, going back to about the High Middle Ages (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FHigh_Middle_Ages), have 230 or roughly a billion ancestors, more than the total world population (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FWorld_population) at the time. [1] (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FPedigree_collapse%23ci te_note-River_Out_of_Eden-0)


This apparent paradox occurs because the individuals in the binary tree are not distinct: instead, a single individual may occupy multiple places in the binary tree. This typically happens when the parents of an ancestor are (distant) cousins (sometimes unbeknownst to themselves). For example, the offspring of two first cousins has only six great-grandparents instead of the normal eight. This reduction in the number of ancestors is pedigree collapse, it collapses the binary tree into a directed acyclic graph (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FDirected_acyclic_graph ) with two different, directed paths starting from the ancestor who in the binary tree would occupy two places.


In some cultures, cousins were encouraged or required to marry to keep kin bonds, wealth and property within a family (endogamy (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FEndogamy)). Among royalty (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FRoyal_family), the frequent requirement to only marry other royals resulted in a reduced gene pool (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FGene_pool) in which most individuals were the result of extensive pedigree collapse. Alfonso XII of Spain (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FAlfonso_XII_of_Spain), for example, had only four great-grandparents instead of the usual eight. More generally, in many cultures intermarriage may frequently occur within a small village, limiting the available gene pool.


The maximum pedigree collapse of 50% within a single generation is caused by procreation between full siblings. Such children have only two different grandparents, instead of the maximum four. If a child and parent were to procreate, their offspring would have four grandparents, although one of these would also be a parent and therefore introduce no additional genes thus procreation between parents and children would result in less pedigree collapse than procreation between full siblings. If two half-siblings procreate, their children have three grandparents instead of four. If a person procreates with a full sibling of one of their parents, the offspring have four different persons as grandparents, and eight great-grandparents, but again some of these contribute no additional genes. (See inbreeding (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FInbreeding).)
Small, isolated populations such as those of remote islands represent extreme examples of pedigree collapse, but the common historical tendency to marry those within walking distance, due to the relative immobility of the population before modern transport, meant that most marriage partners were at least distantly related. Even in America around the 19th century, the tendency of immigrants to marry among their ethnic, language or cultural group produced many cousin marriages.
A personal illustration of this : in my genealogy, Charlemagne is attestedly at least 300 times my ancestor (= he is situated in my genealogy at the 36th generation above me, and at this generation, if the tree was completely binary, there would be 300 different ancestors in addition to Charlemagne and all the others... but Charlemagne occupies 300 places just by himself) only on my maternal side. Officiously he's certainly my ancestor considerably much more times than this. And that's the same for many, many Europeans.
As for my ancestor tree, of course the overwhelming majority of my branches are "cut" beyond the 10th or 14th generation above me. Because unless one branch is attestedly related to nobility (which was my luck), you can't go beyond the 1620-1650's, when archives for commoners don't exist anymore, were lost or destroyed.
But once you found a noble, you found them all :D
On my mother's side there are peasants who descend from slightly richer peasants, and so on until a cadet branch of a noble family of the Boulonnais. From then... I trace back to the Counts of Flanders, to Charlemagne, as well as Wittekind, Alfred the Great, etc... Like I said, once you found one, you found them all. But when all is said and done, the greedy bastards left me nothing in inheritance.

EDIT
Of course, someone already wrote about that (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=92452&highlight=pedigree+collapse)