PDA

View Full Version : The Spartans



forkbeard
Sunday, January 4th, 2009, 12:37 PM
[Note: Split from this thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=92342).]

Just backtracking there the Spartans were certainly a Germanic people. The Hellenes being part of the Dorian cultural wave from central Europe.
By definition in Spartan society and in Hellenic society as a whole, slaves and helots were black haired Ionians. Spartans were golden haired "Xanthoi."

Siebenbürgerin
Sunday, January 4th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Just backtracking there the Spartans were certainly a Germanic people. The Hellenes being part of the Dorian cultural wave from central Europe.
By definition in Spartan society and in Hellenic society as a whole, slaves and helots were black haired Ionians. Spartans were golden haired "Xanthoi."
Hmm, that isn't true. The Spartans were Greek people. You're mentioning Hellenes yourself, so how could they be Germanic at same time?

SwordOfTheVistula
Monday, January 5th, 2009, 01:03 AM
Hmm, that isn't true. The Spartans were Greek people. You're mentioning Hellenes yourself, so how could they be Germanic at same time?


http://www.white-history.com/hwr10.htm

The Spartans themselves kept their society strictly divided into three classes: by blood. At the top were the Spartans themselves, nearly all Nordic, ruled by their kings (Sparta had two kings from two ancient families).

The middle class comprised mainly of the original Greeks and some later descendants of other Indo-European invaders (such as the Dorians). This middle class tended to be less Nordic in appearance than the Spartans themselves.

The lowest class of Spartan society were the darkest in the society, called helots, who were mainly Original Mediterranean racial types who had mixed with North African (Arabic, Nubian and Semitic) slaves imported into the region at an earlier date.

Originally the Classical Greeks prided themselves upon possessing the "fairest eyes . . . of all the nations" or so wrote the Jewish physician and sophist Adamantius during the 4th Century AD (Physiognomica, iii. 32).

As the darker elements in Grecians society grew in number, so did the desire to mimic the original Nordic blond haired type. The Greek writer Euripides, for example, wrote a tract on how Greeks dyed their hair blond, and many other Greek writers left tracts describing how hair could be dyed blond with natural chemicals.

In 411 BC, forty years after Pericles had enacted his law limiting citizenship to those of biological Athenian descent only, the law was turned on its head and citizenship of Athens was given to tens of thousands of foreigners who had entered Athens, particularly from the Middle East, with the argument being used that the city state had to make up the huge population losses suffered as a result of the Persian and inter-Grecian wars.

By this stage the racial mix of Athens and many other Grecian city states was beginning to show the effects of the importation of peoples from elsewhere in the Middle and Near East, and significant sections of the population had become darker than even during Pericles' time.

This darkening of the population (caused partly by the Nordic and original European elements of Grecian society warring themselves to death - and partly by the importation of masses of already mixed Middle Eastern peoples) runs directly in tandem with the decline and fall of Classical Greece.

Psychonaut
Monday, January 5th, 2009, 01:44 AM
http://www.white-history.com/hwr10.htm

The Spartans themselves kept their society strictly divided into three classes: by blood. At the top were the Spartans themselves, nearly all Nordic, ruled by their kings (Sparta had two kings from two ancient families).

I have a couple of problems with this guy's arguments:

1). He doesn't source anything.
2). He confuses ancient Mediterranean notions of "Nordic" with what is actually Nordic and further conflates this with what is Germanic.

BeornWulfWer
Monday, January 5th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Just backtracking there the Spartans were certainly a Germanic people.

How are you defining "Germanic" here? Culturally or genetically?

Jäger
Monday, January 5th, 2009, 02:28 PM
1). He doesn't source anything.
Adamantius? Yet I agree, the author should better source his claims.


2). He confuses ancient Mediterranean notions of "Nordic" with what is actually Nordic and further conflates this with what is Germanic.
Hm, the word Germanic is not even mentioned in the article, and he does not claim notions of the term "Nordic" by ancient Mediterraneans, just "light eyes" and "fair hair".

forkbeard
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 12:17 AM
It used to be just general knowledge that the Germanic peoples inhabitated Greece, founded Rome, ruled Persia. Were treated as Gods in Egypt. Inhabited Libya and the central Sahara. Invaded India, created Chinese civilisation and travelled to the Americas.
There is a big move to rubbish Germanic history by those that are excluded. No doubt one day they will say it was a myth that Swedes were blonde.
Creeping negrescence must be challenged.
Portugal used to be as blonde as Sweden, as did France and Spain. Unfortunately dominant negrescent genes are driving our people to extinction and dooming us to a world without beauty or love. Just as the dwarf stole the Rhine gold.

rainman
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 01:03 AM
http://www.white-history.com/hellenes.htm

I always found the Nordic claims suspect. You can look at ancient Greek statues and such. They look white but not particularly Nordic :-\

Here you can look at actual ancient Greek paintings. They have white skin and black hair. Not blond, blue eyed Nordics

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/philolog/2006/10/titians_bacchus_and_ariadne_15.html

stormlord
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 01:17 AM
Wow, threads like these really bring out the whack jobs. History is about looking at evidence and discerning the truth from it, not fabricating evidence to suit your ideology,these fantasies about nordic ubermen founding every piece of world civilization are ridiculous, and unsurprisingly always backed up by the most ridiculous evidence. Yes the Spartan citizens were of different racial stock, if I recall correctly Dorian rather than Ionian; they were not however, nordic.

rainman
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Too many racialist get hung up on Nazi propaganda. This was stuff made up to manipulate a dumb public- the Nazis didn't even believe it themselves. That's where a lot of the make the Jew into the devil himself and blame him for everything and blond, blue eyed Nordics represent everything good on the earth comes from. The references arguing for blond, blue eyed Greeks were members of the Nazi party. That's where these crazy ideas keep popping up from...

SwordOfTheVistula
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 04:21 AM
Here you can look at actual ancient Greek paintings. They have white skin and black hair. Not blond, blue eyed Nordics

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/philolog/2006/10/titians_bacchus_and_ariadne_15.html

That painting is from the 16th century, as far removed from the times of ancient Greece as we are from the times of Jesus Christ.

forkbeard
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM
I've seen a lot of debate about these things on many forums and never wanted to get involved as it does take a lot of time and research. I hope other people can certainly help back up the Germanic historical view point. I am certainly no nazi apologist. Nazism was a disaster for the Germanic peoples.
I am though forced to defend my people from the deliberate attempt by non Germanics to delete my people from history, culturally and biologically.
I believe Art history is evidence enough for depictions of my kind throughout history. Xanthus is the Greek word for Gold not yellow. Hellenes looked like they were descended from Blonde Helen (Queen of Sparta). In the Peloponessian war (Thucydides), the Athenians are horrified that the Spartans enslave other Hellenes (the Xanthic Messenians), yet think it perfectly acceptable to enslave black haired Ionians. Athenian democracy was run on a hair color apartheid system that initially prohibited non Xanthoi from voting.
Its like the Spartans being gay argument. I don't buy that either. Some people just have an agenda to muddy the waters.
Last time I read Plutarch he explained how non Spartans assumed homosexuality amongst the Spartans but that the Greek word for lover and inspiration were the same. Therefore the proper relationship between an older warrior and youth was that of a mentor. Plutarch further qualifies this by saying that the Spartans would consider nothing more disgusting than for an olderman to persue a youth for sexual reasons.
The reason Greece is a rubbish country now is entirely due to the loss of Nordic blood. Compulsory marriage to Asians dictated by Alexander. 1000 years of muti-cultural Rome and Muslim rape have left a stunted dark population that doesn't even have the same "hunter" body proportions of the classical Greeks.
Classical Athens only had a population of 50,000 people and yet produced 200 of the worlds greatest minds. Modern Greece has the lowest IQ in Europe.
I would like to argue in time that the Germanic peoples once inhabited all Eurasia as far as Japan, and Siberia ( frozen mummies, wide eyed ceramics and megaliths initially back this up) and Africa as far as the Tassili plateau (rock art). As well as creating Indian civilisation and extending Hindu influence to Cambodia and Indonesia. (Its such a huge project I can't do it alone.)
Its not a fantasy, it is archaeology that can't be ignored. (like the blonde mummies in south America and the Inca skeleton recently fond in Norway.)
My point in arguing this is just that we are a rare and valuable breed that needs some self awareness to prevent its extinction. (Its like the European horse- its carved on the Parthenon freeze- but it only survives today in Iceland. How do we know this? because the Parthenon horses are doing the TOLT. The fifth gait that only the Iceland pony can do.

forkbeard
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 12:29 PM
We need a Greek history expert to verify this. I'm not qualified . I've got the books but don't want to spend hours trawling through them.
Aristotle says in his "The politics" that slaves are evidenced by their physical appearance- as are superior men. That if there were a race of Giants with the appearance of the Gods as they are depicted in collosal statuary, then it would be obvious that they would and should rule over and enslave other men.
Thucydides the contemporary historian of Pericles descibes how citizenry was limited to "Hellenes", males and was hereditary. Citizens had to undergo military service as Ephebes, surviving statues all of which have honey coloured paint for the hair.
A complaint by the Spartans that illegitimate offspring of slaves and "Citizens -those permitted to vote" was corrupting Athens led to the rule of the thirty dictators. This confined the right to vote to the aristocracy.
I'm sure someone must know more about this than me.
NB don't go posting images of Greeks from ceramics. Black figure ware was just a painting style limited by the type of glazes available (slip based glaze) and is not descriptive of anthropology- that I do know.

BeornWulfWer
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 02:13 PM
In the Peloponessian war (Thucydides), the Athenians are horrified that the Spartans enslave other Hellenes (the Xanthic Messenians), yet think it perfectly acceptable to enslave black haired Ionians.

I've never heard of that.

The Greeks were horrified that Sparta enslaved free born Greeks, but found no such qualms of enslaving near by people through war or territorial disputes.


Its like the Spartans being gay argument. I don't buy that either. Some people just have an agenda to muddy the waters.

I've often had trouble with this, too.

I am at no odds about homosexuality being present in Sparta's, or even ancient Greece as a whole, but the prevalence by which it was believed to be practiced.


Last time I read Plutarch he explained how non Spartans assumed homosexuality amongst the Spartans but that the Greek word for lover and inspiration were the same. Therefore the proper relationship between an older warrior and youth was that of a mentor. Plutarch further qualifies this by saying that the Spartans would consider nothing more disgusting than for an olderman to persue a youth for sexual reasons.

What seems to be forgotten in these cases is the pairing off of the young boys with the older men during the agoge was between an older unmarried citizen warrior and a teenaged boy. The older was called the 'inspirer' and the younger called the 'hearer'.

It would be ignorant to believe things did not go on, but the cause of this rumour is through other Greeks stating the Spartans were addicted to buggery and people mistranslating.


Compulsory marriage to Asians dictated by Alexander.

Yes, but soon after his death there was mass abandonment of the Persian wives by the elite and the rank and file. It was only Ptolemy(?) who kept his wife.

Cythraul
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Portugal used to be as blonde as Sweden, as did France and Spain. Unfortunately dominant negrescent genes are driving our people to extinction and dooming us to a world without beauty or love.
Your evidence please? The fact that there is a pigmental spectrum spanning Africa to the far North is more likely to be climal than being due to varying degrees of racial intermixing. Why is it so difficult for people to believe that different traits evolved in different parts of Europe? Furthermore, your assertion that Spartans were originally as 'blonde as Sweden' compromises your own argument. For, at the time of the Classical 'blonde' Greeks, the Basque (who supposedly gave Britain its dark pigmentation - presumably, Britain was 100% blonde until then) dwelled at a location no closer to Africa than the Greeks. Or perhaps your belief is that the Basque were also blonde at this time, in which case I'd like to hear your explanation about how Britain obtained its dark pigmentation. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Cythraul
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 03:42 PM
http://www.white-history.com/hwr10.htm
Isn't that the same book/site that claims the high Egyptians were Nordic? I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to take much of what that site says seriously.

For example:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/cheopsdaugher.jpg

This depiction of Queen Hetop-Heres II is used as proof of blondeness, despite the fact that:
a) It looks nothing like hair.
b) Royal Egyptians are synonymous with golden headwear resembling what is seen here.
c) Even if the hair was Nordic, the facial features certainly aren't.

SwordOfTheVistula
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 07:11 PM
Isn't that the same book/site that claims the high Egyptians were Nordic? I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to take much of what that site says seriously.

For example:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/cheopsdaugher.jpg

This depiction of Queen Hetop-Heres II is used as proof of blondeness, despite the fact that:
a) It looks nothing like hair.
b) Royal Egyptians are synonymous with golden headwear resembling what is seen here.
c) Even if the hair was Nordic, the facial features certainly aren't.

That's the way they drew hair. This guy here has the exact same hairstyle or headgear depiction as the above person:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k104/thepromptwriter/egyptian1.jpg

http://www.theancientegypt.org/assets/images/egyptian-god-sis.jpg

Cythraul
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 07:25 PM
That's the way they drew hair.
I stand corrected. But point c) still stands. There's nothing Nordid about the facial features of those used as examples of Egyptian Nordids. The use of hair-dye or grey-ness mustn't necessarily be ruled out either. I think in most cases, Nordicists such as the author of the white history website see what they want to see. I might browse the site further when I have some time, to see if there's anything I find credible.

stormlord
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 07:56 PM
I



What seems to be forgotten in these cases is the pairing off of the young boys with the older men during the agoge was between an older unmarried citizen warrior and a teenaged boy. The older was called the 'inspirer' and the younger called the 'hearer'.

It would be ignorant to believe things did not go on, but the cause of this rumour is through other Greeks stating the Spartans were addicted to buggery and people mistranslating.



Yep, the gay Spartans meme is a fabrication.

Unlike the evidence for them being Germanic, the evidence that the Spartans were not gay is fairly strong. We only have the word of their rivals firstly, and just like the English make jokes about Germans dressing up in leather gimp suits and spanking eac other, there's never much credibility in that. Secondly all the authoritative sources at the time suggest that a) Spartan pederasty was erotic, but chaste (note that the modern meaning of erotic is not the way the Greeks used it), and that b) the Spartans abhorred actual homosexuals who had only male partners, didn't marry a woman etc. The relationship was just a more extreme form of a common form of education that persists in Europe to this day; i.e. apprenticeships, where an older male teaches a younger one in a one to one format, like a mentor.

Jäger
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 08:03 PM
There's nothing Nordid about the facial features of those used as examples of Egyptian Nordids.
There are no facial features at all. You can't demand a well defined face, if that's how they made hair, obviously they were satisfied enough (or not competent enough) to not make it more detailed.


The use of hair-dye or grey-ness mustn't necessarily be ruled out either.
There is also a blonde mummy.
http://www.aegyptenfans.de/Aegypten/BritischesMuseum/London_2/blondemumie.jpg
Source: Museum of Britain.
The use of henna (or something similar) could not be proven.

Cythraul
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 08:51 PM
There are no facial features at all.
Granted, the facial features are extremely simplified, but if I wanted to depict a Nordid face in simple terms, it wouldn't look very much like the Egyptian artefacts we have. The nose and eye shape imparticular are far more reminiscent of modern Egyptians.


There is also a blonde mummy.
Yes. Interesting discovery it was. Only proves that ancient Nordids travelled though - something which I don't dispute. In fact, unrecorded pre-history and lost civilisations are an interest of mine and I believe man was more civilised and well-travelled circa 10-5,000 BC than we give him credit for. Like these Mexican depictions of Africans for example - the Olmec Heads:

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ac/mex/olmec/olmechead.jpg

..but the vast majority of Egyptian depictions show black hair. The few that don't, still share the same facial features and/or family lineage as the dark-haired ones. I've seen more evidence to suggest that the Egyptians were Egyptians and very, very little to suggest otherwise.

BeornWulfWer
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 09:02 PM
http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ac/mex/olmec/olmechead.jpg




Some have argued that, since the Olmec Colossal Heads look so very
different from the physiology of Mayan sculptures, the people who
carved them must have been of a different race. Even setting aside the
fact that many "Mayan features" shown on sculptures involved the active
deformation of physiology, this is not a tenable argument; the ancient
peoples of the Gulf Coast were not Mayans -- the Olmec have been shown
to be Mixe-Zoquean, a completely different native group, and there is
no reason to expect them to have Mayan features. Further, the features
represented in the Olmec sculptures -- flat, wide noses and thick,
fleshy lips -- are common to many different Native American cultures,
from the Inuit to the Andeans.

A look at the Native Americans who presently live in the Gulf Coast
area, in fact, reveals striking similarities between these peoples and
the Olmec Heads. There is no reason to believe, from a physiological
standpoint, that the Olmec Heads were not created by these people's
ancestors.

Taking a closer look at these peoples, it is obvious that proponents of
African origin theories have also ignored that the naturalistic Olmec
sculptures show other features that do not exist at all in black African
physiology, but that are common to Native Americans (who trace their
ancestry back to Asians). Most notably, the sculptures have epicanthic
("asian") folds over the eyes, and those that are not shaven have very
straight hair.

Ignoring that these features (fleshy lips, wide noses, epicanthic folds,
and straight hair) are common among many different Native societies
throughout the Americas, some have claimed that this combination of
features indicates a racial mixing of Native Americans with Africans.
Modern-type DNA analysis, however, has so far not shown ANY African
haplotypes among the various Pre-Columbian Amerindian populations
studied.

Finally, there is no concrete archaeological evidence of African
cultures in the New World in Pre-Columbian times -- no imported
animals or plants, no imported artifacts, no imported techniques,
not even any imported materials from which native objects may have
been made. In fact, there is no known black African culture that
produced colossal, naturalistic stone sculptures like the Olmec
Heads.

There is, however, overwhelming archaeological evidence that the
Olmec Colossal Heads were made by and for Native Americans.

Source (http://www.angelfire.com/zine/meso/meso/olmec.html)

Cythraul
Tuesday, January 6th, 2009, 09:19 PM
That's the way they drew hair.
I had a bit more of a read of the white-history website. There are some brow-raising pictures in there that cause the mind to wander, but just when I was beginning to think there might be some kind of credence to the concept of blonde Egyptians, I stumbled on this image:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/nubs.jpeg

The website states that they are Nubians, and yet, they too have 'blonde' hair. So for that reason, I can't hold the pictures you posted as proof of Nordid Egyptians.. for now.

rainman
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 03:31 PM
That painting is from the 16th century, as far removed from the times of ancient Greece as we are from the times of Jesus Christ.

Scroll down not the first painting you see.

From what I've dug up: the oldest manuscript written in an Aryan language was found in China!! Similarly old ones are found in Tibet! It would seem that a very tiny group of Aryans had an influence on early Chinese civilization. Since the other %99.5 of the population was not Aryan over the course of thousands of years the blood was diluted and little evidence of it in modern East Asians.

Egypt: linguistically not Aryan (like the chinese) yet the religion and culture has a very strong Aryan element. The royalty considered themselves racially different than normal Egyptians. The pharos would marry brother and sister to keep their blood pure. They look like some cross between Aryan and Semite, but definately more Aryan than the average Egyptian.
Look at this bust:
http://images14.fotki.com/v387/photos/2/24667/2030688/nefertiti-vi.jpg

The royalty- like in China seem to be a mix of Aryans with the Native rulers. There is similar evidence of a lighter skinned, more Aryan ruling class in Sumeria. We also see the same thing in India- with a caste system still alive today. The top cast isn't 100% pure but pretty close to being pure "white" and the lower castes more dark native. A similar story happened with Greece and Rome (speculated modern Royalty can be traced back to Greek/Egyptian/or even sometimes Sumerian bloodlines) the old bloodlines intermarried with the native kings/cheifs. When Rome invaded Northern Europe they did the same thing- the nobility was mostly Roman- taking an occasional intermarriage with a native chief. Nobility even in Europe did not typically interbreed with the commoners.

Now the Jews have done similar- interbreeding with royalty and the most wealthy and powerful Aryans to establish their own modern dynasty- trying to replace the Aryans as the world's dominant race.

You can't compare the 1% or even 10% royalty to the other 90% of the population- they are racially different. Though I admit a strong Aryan element in these dynasties they certainly aren't 100% pure to what we call Aryans today and they sure weren't blond/blue eyed Nordics.

lei.talk
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 04:37 PM
From what I've dug up:
the oldest manuscript written in an Aryan language was found in China!!
Similarly old ones are found in Tibet!

SwordOfTheVistula
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 04:51 PM
I had a bit more of a read of the white-history website. There are some brow-raising pictures in there that cause the mind to wander, but just when I was beginning to think there might be some kind of credence to the concept of blonde Egyptians, I stumbled on this image:

http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/nubs.jpeg

The website states that they are Nubians, and yet, they too have 'blonde' hair. So for that reason, I can't hold the pictures you posted as proof of Nordid Egyptians.. for now.

That looks like white hair, not blond hair (as in the other pic). Black people get white hair when they get older. It likely would have been tribal elders who showed up to give gold offerings, so they well could have had white hair.

Nelson Mandela, light haired black leader:

http://iahsa.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/nelson-mandela.jpg

Cythraul
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 05:49 PM
That looks like white hair, not blond hair (as in the other pic).
So does this:

http://www.theancientegypt.org/assets/images/egyptian-god-sis.jpg

...as well as most of the depictions posted on the white history site to prove Nordicism in ancient Egypt. Many show either white or colourless hair as opposed to golden.

Oski
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 06:11 PM
http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/nubs.jpeg


Perhaps the ruling class were australoid :D

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x58/PneumaTheNomadic/aborigine_women.jpg

CrimWheat
Wednesday, January 7th, 2009, 06:48 PM
March of the Titans is a terrible source to reference. The book is so obviously laden with half-truths, embellishments, simplifications and outright fabrications that it baffles me to see it cited again and again.

Equally baffling is the belief in an primordial Nordic Mediterranean people, who through very tenuous, highly localized contact with negroids, became almost ubiquitously dark-haired and dark-skinned, but for some unfathomable reason didn't inherit negroid craniometrics or facial features of any kind.

A lot of people misinterpret the word 'blonde'. Blonde doesn't mean the same thing to Mediterranean people Northern Europeans. Not now and not then. It may be true that slaves were relatively darker than nobles, but that doesn't mean Spartan nobles were nordid.

forkbeard
Friday, January 9th, 2009, 01:32 AM
To make the argument credible we have to have both sides of the argument.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/gr/ancient.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/7.html&usg=__F6oz0LTSLhXTbA4fVvRyn2lSKvc=&h=640&w=480&sz=67&hl=en&start=95&tbnid=zcFejs3pePMnVM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dancient%2Bgreeks%26start%3D 80%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa% 3DN

This was a good thread. This gives plenty of sources that there was a significant Nordic elemnt in Greece in the classical period.
I tend to go with the archaeology as shown in art and in the corrobarating classical texts.
There is a problem with the blonde mummies as this may be due to chemical reactions. The apparent negroes with blonde hair can be explained by a dyeing process using cow urine but these images are undeniable.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/nefertiti3.jpg
Nefertiti A Hittite Princess

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/berberchildwh1.jpg

Berbers

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0022.jpg

An Egyptian scribe

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0020.jpg

An Egyptian woman

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0034.jpg
Egyptians.
Admittedly these may be wigs but they are very "hair like" up close.
There is however a classical reference , I think in "The Civil War" by Caesar, (I'll have to verify this, or track it down- which will take some re reading) where he states he was surprised to see blondes at the court of Cleopatra that were as "blonde as Rheinlanders." Wether these were slaves, mercenaries, Greeks or albinos is not said)

Anyway the debate was about Spartans. Whilst we can say there was always a White element in ancient Egypt, periodically reinforced from the North. What is the habeus corpus Archaeological evidence of Germanic Spartans.
It appears the volcanic eruption on Thera in crete caused a cooling of northern europe circa 1200 BC.
Prior to this Denmark was balmy.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0026.jpg
note the mini skirt.
The Danes at the time had horned helmets and circular shields.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/helm1.jpg
Amber was traded from the Baltic as far as Egypt.
At this time a southward migration began evidenced by the distribution of Germanic flange hilted swords. Alloys specifically from Heligoland ore.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/flange.jpg
Sourced from Jurgen Spanuths book "Atlantis of the North" and "Ancient Europe" by Stuart Piggot.
Simultaneously in the Meditteranean "The peoples of the Sea" appear. These peoples are depicted on the bass reliefs at Medinet Habu in Egypt. The Egyptian chronicals ( Michael wood- The Trojan war), describe how the Sea Peoples made a conspiracy in their distant Islands. One of the tribes was called the "Danuna" (Danes? Tuatha de Danaan?)
Their boats are of the long boat type with a prow at either end.
In Michael woods documentary series the Sea peoples are shown in Egyptian Art as being red haired and blonde. Pharoah defeats them. The Nuraghi forts of Sardinia have turned up effigies with the same circular shields and horned helmets of the Danish pattern.
It is also at this time that the Dorians enter Greece. All the cities of the Heroic age are burned; Mycenae, Tyryns, Pylos, Thebes, Orchmenos.
It is this input that leads to the eventual Greek Xanthoi of the Classical period.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/scan0024.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/greek5.jpg
This statue of an Ephebe (Athenian ciizen in military service has honey coloured paint for the hair.)
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/greek.jpg
As does this.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/greek3.jpg
A recent exhibition had reconstructions of all the surviving paintwork on Classical greek statuary.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/greek2.jpg

SwordOfTheVistula
Friday, January 9th, 2009, 02:33 AM
So does this:


...as well as most of the depictions posted on the white history site to prove Nordicism in ancient Egypt. Many show either white or colourless hair as opposed to golden.


Perhaps the ruling class were australoid

The picture of the blacks with white hair was foreign dignitaries, Nubians from the south coming to offer homage.

Probably most Egyptians were semitic, but there seems to be considerable evidence to make a plausible assertion that they were ruled for a time by a nordic elite, as India and Africa were in the 1800s.

BeornWulfWer
Friday, January 9th, 2009, 08:40 AM
Admittedly these may be wigs but they are very "hair like" up close.
There is however a classical reference , I think in "The Civil War" by Caesar, (I'll have to verify this, or track it down- which will take some re reading) where he states he was surprised to see blondes at the court of Cleopatra that were as "blonde as Rheinlanders." Wether these were slaves, mercenaries, Greeks or albinos is not said)


You might very well be thinking of the Celts which were Cleopatra's elite bodyguard.


By the third century B.C., at the height of their greatest expansion, the Celts had spread from their Rhineland home as far west as Ireland and east to Turkey's central plain, as far north as Belgium and south to Cadiz in Spain. They had crossed the Alps and defeated the armies of the Etruscan empire and had occupied Rome and invaded the Greek peninsula. Formidable warriors armed with iron weapons, they would find their way to Egypt and into Queen Cleopatra's elite bodyguard. Tracking the progress of the Celts through the ancient world, this compelling history celebrates more than their warfare, for the Celts also developed agricultural techniques that even the Romans adopted. They cut the first roads through impenetrable European forests, displayed exuberant genius in their metalwork, monumental stone carvings, glassware, and jewelry, exerted influence on Greek philosophers and Roman surgeons, and made Irish the third literary language of Europe, after Latin and Greek.

Source (http://www.amazon.com/Celts-History-Peter-Berresford-Ellis/dp/0786712775)

forkbeard
Friday, January 9th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Egyptians were very aquainted with Semites. These were depicted with yellow skin in the painted reliefs. The Egyptian word for bandit being a "Hebrou". Artistic formality always portrayed the Egyptians as being lobster coloured. (A colour caucasions still become when sun burned).
So ancient Egyptians were certainly never Semites. They do contain a Somalid/ semitc element now though, the majority being descended from any number of peoples that have passed that way.
The Copts in Egypt claim a somewhat contaminated lineage back to the classical Egyptians. They are now a dispossessed 10% minority confined to dung clearance and scavenging rubbish dumps.

Jäger
Friday, January 9th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Here you can look at actual ancient Greek paintings. They have white skin and black hair. Not blond, blue eyed Nordics

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/philolog/2006/10/titians_bacchus_and_ariadne_15.html
[..]
Scroll down not the first painting you see.


http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/philolog/Dionysus%20Kleophrades.jpg
Dionysus by the Kleophrades Painter (note Maenads on either side of Dionysus holding thrysoi and serpents) Munich: Antikensammlungen # 8732, end of 5th c. BCE

This depiction of Dionysus as a black haired man is quite consequential:


Homeros offers neither polemic nor dogma, says Erwin Rohde, and in this single sentence Rohde has defined the very essence of true religion. This profound student of the Hellenic nature adds: Homeros has little interest in omens and ecstasies, lacking any taste for such. It is the moderation of a superior race which resounds from every page of the Iliad, and echoes in all the temples of Hellas. But beneath this creative level, there lurked and proliferated Pelasgian, Phoenician, Alpine (racial term, as in Alpinid), and, later, Levantine values. Continually, in proportion to the strengths of these races, their gods intruded. If the gods of the Greeks were heroes of light and heaven, the gods of the Levant were of the earth. Demeter, Hermes and others are essential creations of the alien racial soul. Pallas Athena is a warrior protectress of the life struggle: the Pelasgian Ares is a monster dripping blood, Apollo is the god of the lyre and song: Dionysos (at least in his non Aryan aspect) is the god of ecstasy and frenzied lust.
[...]
However, Apollo’s magnanimity had the result that the chthonic gods continued their subterranean life. After the later miscegenation between the Greeks and the aborigines, neither the chthonic nor the celestial deities appear again in pure form. They mingle in the Dionysian rites. Although Dionysos represents the father right, he also becomes the god of the dead upon whom Antigone calls. He loses the clear, strong character of Apollo, and becomes effeminate and drunken. Ultimately, he sinks down into all that is demonic, Maenadlike, and nocturnal. Even the animals consecrated to this demonic god are dark. Only at night is homage paid. [B]Everything Dionysian in Greek life appears as something racially and spiritually alien—and ancient. It is to become the surest sign of the psychic deterioration which paralleled the attenuation of the Nordic blood.

:)

forkbeard
Monday, January 12th, 2009, 12:41 AM
This seems an interesting comment on modern Egypytians.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpres s.com/2008/07/tassili_ladies-3000bc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/tag/y-chromosomes/Y-chromosome%2520analysis%2520in%2520Egypt %2520suggests%2520a%2520genetic%2520regi onal%2520continuity%2520in%2520Northeast ern%2520Africa.Manni%2520F,%2520Leonardi %2520P,%2520Barakat%2520A,%2520Rouba%252 0H,%2520Heyer%2520E,%2520Klintschar%2520 M,%2520McElreavey%2520K,%2520Quintana-Murci%2520L./&usg=__D5NnTJbHEcFBBBYN1pQ3zzHYKx8=&h=361&w=297&sz=44&hl=en&start=10&tbnid=TpBFp2fLSg8n8M:&tbnh=121&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhaplotypes%2Bin%2Begypt%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DG

Whilst not a big fan of the haplotype arguments. (Any half breed can have a Western European haplotype; but it doesn't make them one of us) the Archaeology does show at least in the artistic evidence there was a blue eyed element in the culture bearing stratums of Egypt and Greece that went extinct. The cultural decline corresponding to the genetic extinction.
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/rahotep.jpg
rahotep
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/Nofret.jpg
nofret
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/ACMA_670_Kore_1.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/2238980410_589bf43fa4.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/museum_headjug.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/h2_0922128.jpg
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp234/wilhelmII/children.jpg

sonofsparta
Monday, April 27th, 2009, 10:53 PM
http://www.white-history.com/hellenes.htm

I always found the Nordic claims suspect. You can look at ancient Greek statues and such. They look white but not particularly Nordic :-\




Yeah i always found alot of the claims in that book pretty suspect.

Anyway, I dont believe the Spartans were ever Germanic. They were part of the Aryan race, and they may have been lighter skinned then now, but i've never heard them as German.

Although, until a couple months ago i never knew the original Romans were Celtic, so anythings possible :D

SwordOfTheVistula
Tuesday, April 28th, 2009, 07:30 AM
Anyway, I dont believe the Spartans were ever Germanic. They were part of the Aryan race, and they may have been lighter skinned then now, but i've never heard them as German.

They predated the modern definition of 'Germanic'. They were essentially the same people racially, some of whom later developed into what we now know as 'Germanic'

Sir Infamous
Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 03:05 AM
Yeah i always found alot of the claims in that book pretty suspect.

Anyway, I dont believe the Spartans were ever Germanic. They were part of the Aryan race, and they may have been lighter skinned then now, but i've never heard them as German.

Although, until a couple months ago i never knew the original Romans were Celtic, so anythings possible :D


LOL, yeah Arthur Kemp's book is trash. He is in no means a credible source.

The ancient Spartans were a Greek tribe.


Wow, threads like these really bring out the whack jobs. History is about looking at evidence and discerning the truth from it, not fabricating evidence to suit your ideology,these fantasies about nordic ubermen founding every piece of world civilization are ridiculous, and unsurprisingly always backed up by the most ridiculous evidence. Yes the Spartan citizens were of different racial stock, if I recall correctly Dorian rather than Ionian; they were not however, nordic.

LOL yeah Nordic Ubermen bringing every world civilization but when the Greeks and Romans were doing their thing Northern Europeans were illiterate and had nothing of world importance(no cities, philosphy etc). When I take a western Civilization class It's starts in Southern Europe and Northern Europe only starts becoming relevant during the medieval times.

So if Nordic Ubermen made all the civilizations in the Mediterranean why the heck could they not do it in Northern Europe (ala their racial homeland)?????.

Doesnt make much sense to me. :)


I've seen a lot of debate about these things on many forums and never wanted to get involved as it does take a lot of time and research. I hope other people can certainly help back up the Germanic historical view point. I am certainly no nazi apologist. Nazism was a disaster for the Germanic peoples.
I am though forced to defend my people from the deliberate attempt by non Germanics to delete my people from history, culturally and biologically.
I believe Art history is evidence enough for depictions of my kind throughout history. Xanthus is the Greek word for Gold not yellow. Hellenes looked like they were descended from Blonde Helen (Queen of Sparta). In the Peloponessian war (Thucydides), the Athenians are horrified that the Spartans enslave other Hellenes (the Xanthic Messenians), yet think it perfectly acceptable to enslave black haired Ionians. Athenian democracy was run on a hair color apartheid system that initially prohibited non Xanthoi from voting.
Its like the Spartans being gay argument. I don't buy that either. Some people just have an agenda to muddy the waters.
Last time I read Plutarch he explained how non Spartans assumed homosexuality amongst the Spartans but that the Greek word for lover and inspiration were the same. Therefore the proper relationship between an older warrior and youth was that of a mentor. Plutarch further qualifies this by saying that the Spartans would consider nothing more disgusting than for an olderman to persue a youth for sexual reasons.
The reason Greece is a rubbish country now is entirely due to the loss of Nordic blood. Compulsory marriage to Asians dictated by Alexander. 1000 years of muti-cultural Rome and Muslim rape have left a stunted dark population that doesn't even have the same "hunter" body proportions of the classical Greeks.
Classical Athens only had a population of 50,000 people and yet produced 200 of the worlds greatest minds. Modern Greece has the lowest IQ in Europe.
I would like to argue in time that the Germanic peoples once inhabited all Eurasia as far as Japan, and Siberia ( frozen mummies, wide eyed ceramics and megaliths initially back this up) and Africa as far as the Tassili plateau (rock art). As well as creating Indian civilisation and extending Hindu influence to Cambodia and Indonesia. (Its such a huge project I can't do it alone.)
Its not a fantasy, it is archaeology that can't be ignored. (like the blonde mummies in south America and the Inca skeleton recently fond in Norway.)
My point in arguing this is just that we are a rare and valuable breed that needs some self awareness to prevent its extinction. (Its like the European horse- its carved on the Parthenon freeze- but it only survives today in Iceland. How do we know this? because the Parthenon horses are doing the TOLT. The fifth gait that only the Iceland pony can do.



uhh modern Greece today is not Rubbish, it's actually rated higher on the Human development index than Germany and Great Britain

#1 Iceland
#2 Norway
#3 Canada
#4 Australia
#5 Ireland
#6 Netherlands
#7 Sweden
#8 Japan
#9 Luxembourg
#10 Switzerland
#11 France
#12 Finland
#13 Denmark
#14 Austria
#15 United States
#16 Spain
#17 Belgium
#18 Greece
#19 Italy
#20 New Zealand
#21 United Kingdom
#22 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
#23 Germany
#24 Israel
#25 Korea, Rep. of


http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

And Greece does not have the lowest IQ..It's IQ is actually higher than Ireland's although albeit lower than most Germanic nations. Also Italy has the highest IQ in Europe according to Richard Lynn and his book "IQ and Global Inequality".

Jäger
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 11:35 AM
... but when the Greeks and Romans were doing their thing Northern Europeans were illiterate and had nothing of world importance(no cities, philosphy etc).
They had what they needed to destroy the civilized Roman empire.


So if Nordic Ubermen made all the civilizations in the Mediterranean why the heck could they not do it in Northern Europe (ala their racial homeland)?????.
They did, don't you know of the Frankish, British or Swedish empires?
Who knows how long it took them to form the Roman empire?!


uhh modern Greece today is not Rubbish, it's actually rated higher on the Human development index than Germany and Great Britain
The HDR is of no interest.

TheGreatest
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 11:48 AM
Blah Blah Blah Northern Europeans were beating their chests and dancing naked to crackling fires.... Where have we heard this one?

Too bad if you actually studied Roman History in depth, you'll realize that the Gaulic tribes were actually quite advanced (better metallurgy than your holier-than-thou Romans) and important trading partners with Rome. I'm sure if those Barbarians were completely uncivilized and armed with stone-pointed spears, than they wouldn't have been able to sack the Roman Kingdom and Republican Rome all those countless times. Oh and best you not open the page on the collapse of the Roman Empire (you might not like the part where Germanic Armies pushed aside the scrawny 5''4 Romans and conquered the Peninsula).


Rather the Germanic people were rather resilient, given how awful the terrain was, the lack of sea transport (the Mediterranean is a calm sea and easily navigable. You would have died walking from Berlin to Munich back then, unless you somehow had reassurance of a food supply and lodging).
Consequently the biggest factor was agriculture. Most of Northern and Central Europe isn't suitable for grain farming but ranching. There's a reason why the Germans love their "meat and potatoes" ;)


They had what they needed to destroy the civilized Roman empire.

If the claims about Rome are not exaggerated, than most of the Roman men were probably involved in an orgy, whilst Germanic battleaxe wielding soldiers were knocking down the walls. :D

Fact is that the decline of Roman Genetics and the introduction of degeneracy was the very thing which caused Rome to collapse (or rather contract and wither away a la Byzantium). Quite different from the days of the Republic and Augustus, when the Romans were regarded as fierce opponents and even if they managed to lose the first battle, would quickly adapt and emerge victorious the next day.


The Germanic invasion of Rome wasn't done for the hell of it. Before the end of the Western Roman Empire, there were large scale massacres of Romanized Germanic peoples, who were easily identified by their light skin and light hair, in contrast to the other subjects of the Empire. Many of the Romanized Germanic soldiers deserted upon hearing the news and played a key role in invading the peninsula.

Sir Infamous
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 02:06 PM
They had what they needed to destroy the civilized Roman empire.

destroying things does not equal civilization, building things does. And Rome was never beaten in war, sure it was sacked a few times . Rome collapsed internally due to a number of things (the introduction of backwards thinking Christianity, corruption, multiculturalism, over expansion, disease etc). Roman republic/empire lasted for 1,000 years. The British Empire lasted for 300 years.


They did, don't you know of the Frankish, British or Swedish empires?
Who knows how long it took them to form the Roman empire?!

Ive never heard of Swedish Empires, of course British had Empire but so did the Spaniards. Anyways all these empires are recent in comparison to the Ancient. I'm just saying saying that Northern Europe was culturally backwards for 1000 years before Southern Europe. Civilization flowed from south to north, this is common historical knowledge.


The HDR is of no interest.

It is when concerning how developed a nation is.

Notice how all the low developed ones are are Sub Saharan African nations? 25 lowest are all in Sub Saharan Africa.

Jäger
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 02:27 PM
Ive never heard of Swedish Empires
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Empire


Civilization flowed from south to north, this is common historical knowledge.
The geographic location is not disputed, still, common knowledge history is merely a tool.
It is not about "Civilization" it is about power, the power and strength one needs to transform a will into a deed.
As soon as those empires became "Civilized" they faltered and eventually died.
The achievement of the Nordic race is not "Civilization", it is power, to rule and to conquer ("stormaktstiden").

BritishWitch
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 02:34 PM
I'm just saying saying that Northern Europe was culturally backwards for 1000 years before Southern Europe. Civilization flowed from south to north, this is common historical knowledge.

I'm sure you're aware that there are monuments in Northern Europe that pre-date the Giza pyramid? I wouldn't have to tell you that the Romans were considering the thought of building roads when Northern Europeans were happily whizzing along their already thousands mile long, European wide road systems?

The list is endless. Northern Europe was not a backwards place at all.

Jäger
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 05:41 PM
It is when concerning how developed a nation is.
In what sense? The HDR is entirely subjected to modern definitions of development, while some parts of it have their merits others have not.
To understand the Nordic mind of happiness and success I would recommend A. Schopenhauer - The Wisdom of Life (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10741/10741-8.txt).
We do not need others to tell us how developed we are, nor should we care. We have our own perceptions.

Sir Infamous
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 05:50 PM
In what sense? The HDR is entirely subjected to modern definitions of development, while some parts of it have their merits others have not.
To understand the Nordic mind of happiness and success I would recommend A. Schopenhauer - The Wisdom of Life (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10741/10741-8.txt).
We do not need others to tell us how developed we are, nor should we care. We have our own perceptions.

Nordic nations are all very high on the list, Iceland and Scandinavia are highest:)





The achievement of the Nordic race is not "Civilization", it is power, to rule and to conquer ("stormaktstiden").

So since the Red army conquered Germany they are superior? The most powerful in Europe today is Russia, they would squash any European nation easily. I don't consider Russians better than any other European nation simply for that though. They have higher poverty rates than any EU nation. And are quite low on the human development index from a European perspective.

Jäger
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 09:26 PM
Nordic nations are all very high on the list, Iceland and Scandinavia are highest:)
As I said, their games of praise and scorn should be irrelevant to us.


So since the Red army conquered Germany they are superior?
Inconclusive.


The most powerful in Europe today is Russia, they would squash any European nation easily.
Not surprising since our Nordic spirit is broken, it has no place in the political will of our people :(.


I don't consider Russians better than any other European nation simply for that though.
And who cares? This isn't about better or worse, it is about what is us and what is not us.

Gustavus Magnus
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 10:56 PM
Ive never heard of Swedish Empires, of course British had Empire but so did the Spaniards. Anyways all these empires are recent in comparison to the Ancient. I'm just saying saying that Northern Europe was culturally backwards for 1000 years before Southern Europe. Civilization flowed from south to north, this is common historical knowledge.

I accidentally thanked you when I wanted to quote you. Like Jäger and BritishWitch said, there was monuments and kingdoms here thousands of years before the pyramids at Giza.

During the reign of Tutankhamun Swedes traded with Egyptians quite extensively, and there has even been a throne found in Sweden from that period that looks exactly like king Tutankhamen's.

What you have studied in school (I take it you haven't actually been doing research on your own) is the Anglo-American version of history that's being forced upon all of us. You have to look for yourself if you want to be sure that you get the big picture.

Some links for you, "teasers" if you will:

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6s

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hav%C3%A4ngsd%C3%B6sen

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slutarpsd%C3%B6sen

These are a few of the monuments that are more than 5000 years old.

Rhobot
Sunday, May 3rd, 2009, 11:18 PM
There were also monuments and cities in North America built by Amerindians (e.g. Hopewell Mounds, Poverty Point, Cahokia, Chaco Canyon) so the northern Europeans of the Neolithic and Bronze Age need not have been literate people with state-level societies (as opposed to tribes or chiefdoms) to achieve what they did.
Literacy and urbanization don't seem to have occurred until contact with Etruria, Greece and Rome, although there was a lot of contact between Bronze Age northern/central Europeans and the Eastern Mediterranean (Kristian Kristiansen has written about this.)