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SwordOfTheVistula
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 09:26 AM
Russia has proposed a UN measure denouncing 'glorification of nazism', the US has opposed this measure, the Baltics and Ukraine are abstaining.

http://podblanc.com/russia-and-un-outlaw-racism-nazism-skinheads-us-votes-no-54-countries-abstain

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081119/118396557.html

The resolution was passed with 122 countries voting in favor, while 54 delegations abstained, including Ukraine, Estonia and Latvia. Only the U.S. voted against. The resolution is now practically guaranteed to be adopted at the next UN General Assembly session in December.

Patrioten
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 10:52 AM
"Nazi monuments are unveiled in a ceremonial atmosphere and the dates of liberation from the Nazis are proclaimed as days of mourning," Russia's UN representative, Grigory Lykyantsev, told the UN, adding that "this attitude towards anti-fascist veterans plays into the hands of those who call for 'a pure race.'" I think alot of people in the Baltic feel that the Russians can stick their "liberation" where the sun don't shine, and rightfully so. Same old bull from these people, delusional and arrogant as always.



Relations between Russia and Latvia and Estonia have also been strained over what Moscow calls the two states' unequal treatment of ethnic Russians, the alleged persecution of Soviet WWII veterans, and the apparent revival of nationalism and fascism. If Sweden had been dragged into ww2, become occupied by Russia for 50 years, had been denied our language, culture and identity, with Swedes being sent off to the gulags by the tens of thousands, never to return again, having our country invaded by russians in an effort to russify the country and perfom an ethnic genocide, I wouldn't be so keen on granting those russians citizenship rights.

As far as I'm concerned they wouldn't have any rights, and certainly no right to stay within our country's borders.

Loki
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 05:25 PM
Interesting, no doubt this is because of the lingering hatred between Balts and Russians. The Baltic lands are partially to blame though, who are treating the sizeable Russian minorities like dirt.

Thusnelda
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 05:35 PM
I think the Russian minority should leave the Baltic countries. The former USSR-attempts to russify the Baltic countries like Latvia to secure their power-hemisphere there were absolutely wrong and are wrong nowadays, too. There are even regions within the Baltic countries were Balts make up only the minority!

Since Im in favor of ethnopluralism Id say "Latvia for the Latvians, Estonia for the Estonians and Russia for the Russians".

Im not supporting the Russian side here, but the Baltic one. (On the other hand I support the rising Russian pride and patriotism - but only in Russia, of course *g*)

Loki
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 05:46 PM
I think the Russian minority should leave the Baltic countries. The former USSR-attempts to russify the Baltic countries like Latvia to secure their power-hemisphere there were absolutely wrong and are wrong nowadays, too. There are even regions within the Baltic countries were Balts make up only the minority!

Since Im in favor of ethnopluralism Id say "Latvia for the Latvians, Estonia for the Estonians and Russia for the Russians".

Im not supporting the Russian side here, but the Baltic one. (On the other hand I support the rising Russian pride and patriotism - but only in Russia, of course *g*)

I agree with you, of course. The Balts want their countries back, they want to rid themselves of Russian influence. However, the ways they go about doing this is not very ingenious. They should negotiate with the Russians, rather than treating them bad all the time, and therefore inviting a Russian backlash. It doesn't matter who you are, nobody would like to put up with bad treatment.

It would appear most European leaders have lost (or never had) the art of constructive negotiation. War was usually the only method of score-settling in Europe. That is why our race is currently declining.

Patrioten
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 08:32 PM
I agree with you, of course. The Balts want their countries back, they want to rid themselves of Russian influence. However, the ways they go about doing this is not very ingenious. They should negotiate with the Russians, rather than treating them bad all the time, and therefore inviting a Russian backlash. It doesn't matter who you are, nobody would like to put up with bad treatment.I think they are going about this in a perfectly acceptable way. Not granting Russians living inside their countries, as part of a scheme to russify the country, citizenship is in their right (can you imagine the impact they would have in elections if they were allowed to vote? allowing a large foreign and hostile element to have any influence over the political scene in your country would be nothing short of madness, where lies their loyalty? In Tallinn or Moscow?).

Removing monuments erected by an invading force that came to occupy the country for half a century and which was responsible for killing off a large percentage of the populations in those countries is also perfectly acceptable.

The only way they can be considered as having done anything wrong is by looking at it from the Russian perspective, and from a Russian perspective these countries shouldn't even be free independent nations, they should be a part of Russia.

If Russia cares so much about these people why don't they take them back, after all they sent them there, or are they in fact content with having them placed inside these countries as fifth columnists and thus being able to use their situation, brought onto by themselves, as a paw against the Baltic nations on the international scene? When a country like Russia claims that it is worried about fascist tendencies in the Baltic nations, portraying these countries as a threat against their own security, any reasonable human being ought to come to the conclusion that this has more to do with Russian delusions than with anything going on in the Baltic countries.


It would appear most European leaders have lost (or never had) the art of constructive negotiation. War was usually the only method of score-settling in Europe. That is why our race is currently declining.As if politics by force and intimidation is something Europe-specific. Where in the world do you find peoples inbetween which problems are solved and have been solved in the past by "constructive negotiation"? I'd say it comes down to basic human behaviour. Human nature favors cooperation within the own tribe and makes for strained or even hostile relations with foreign tribes in general and competing ones in particular.

SouthernBoy
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 09:14 PM
It would appear most European leaders have lost (or never had) the art of constructive negotiation. War was usually the only method of score-settling in Europe. That is why our race is currently declining.I think our going soft might be the problem. ;)

Loki
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 09:25 PM
As if politics by force and intimidation is something Europe-specific. Where in the world do you find peoples inbetween which problems are solved and have been solved in the past by "constructive negotiation"? I'd say it comes down to basic human behaviour. Human nature favors cooperation within the own tribe and makes for strained or even hostile relations with foreign tribes in general and competing ones in particular.

It is not Europe-specific, but Europeans should know better, if they claim to be more intelligent. Yet it would seem to me that they still have learnt nothing from history.

Hauke Haien
Thursday, November 20th, 2008, 09:36 PM
It is not Europe-specific, but Europeans should know better, if they claim to be more intelligent. Yet it would seem to me that they still have learnt nothing from history.
Of course we have learnt from history: That we should invite millions of foreigners into our countries, that we should not even try to increase our power and that the fair play award is what decides over the future of our people. Your proposed lesson fits right in there.

Static Matt
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 07:18 AM
If Russia cares so much about these people why don't they take them back, after all they sent them there, or are they in fact content with having them placed inside these countries as fifth columnists and thus being able to use their situation, brought onto by themselves, as a paw against the Baltic nations on the international scene? When a country like Russia claims that it is worried about fascist tendencies in the Baltic nations, portraying these countries as a threat against their own security, any reasonable human being ought to come to the conclusion that this has more to do with Russian delusions than with anything going on in the Baltic countries.


I agree. It just goes to show you how much of this has to do with politics and the like. I was also under the impression that Russia does not really like the U.N. They claim that they want only to denounce fascism but in reality- they are only saying so for all the wrong reasons anyway. Russia has openly threatened countries like Estonia and Latvia. Russia openly denounces them for erecting monuments to SS legions (Baltic countries veterans-known as criminal Nazis to Russians no matter what) and removing old painful reminders of Soviet occupation. I also think that in 1950 the US Commission of Displaced persons rules that the Waffen-SS from the Baltic States are not qualified as 'Germanic' SS and not hostile to the US. Many such people settled in the states and somone I know met one (a Latvian) in New Jersey years ago.... I'm glad to see these countries don't bend so easily like so many others probably would.

Estonia and Latvia (I suppose Ukraine to a lesser extent) are all countries that have done pretty well economically- all things considered. By this I mean you can refer to other former Soviet republics, which still long after independence, have not been able to really recover from all the years under Soviet rule. Ive also heard a lot about these violent neo-Stalinist Russian minorities living in these countries. From what I have heard, they sound equivalent to rioting vandals and are always screaming about how their country supposedly hates them all for rejecting their history, culture, etc....

Loki
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 12:51 PM
With this kind of mentality we are certainly going to have another major war between Europeans. Then, in the aftermath, the Chinese and Indians will take over after we've destroyed ourselves. Brilliant huh. :thumbdown

Oswiu
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 01:34 PM
Ive also heard a lot about these violent neo-Stalinist Russian minorities living in these countries. From what I have heard, they sound equivalent to rioting vandals and are always screaming about how their country supposedly hates them all for rejecting their history, culture, etc....
I'm not fully aware of the details, but how easy is it for these Russians to get back into Russia? There are legal and practical problems here, that make it difficult to just up and leave. How straightforward is it for them to gain Russian citizenship? How could new homes and jobs be found for them? How many of them have no connections in Russia, and would be absolutely stranded if kicked over the border? Many of these people are as much trapped by history as the native Balts themselves.

I imagine the Russian Government are guilty of not facilitating things for them, thinking that they are useful where they are, and can only condemn this cynicism, if that's the way it is. But can we expect them to rear brand new cities in the Taiga to shove these people into? The villainy is not quite so clear cut. However, I do think that the Kremlin is missing a trick in not using the potential manpower available here for strategically repopulating some of the lands which China is looming over. Such things have been done before ( http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=110346 ;))!

All sorts of incentives could be offered to encourage whole blocks of these people to make themselves of use to Russia in a far more wholesome manner. :( A logistical nightmare, but necessary. It would take a lot of diplomacy between the states involved though, and feelings are strained at the moment.

Patrioten
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 02:03 PM
I find it strange though, even though the Soviet union collapsed, of which these Russians were citizens when it existed, shouldn't they have automatically gotten Russian citizenships just like all other Russians that were Soviet citizens? Even though they lived on Baltic soil when these countries became independent nations, they didn't get Baltic citizenships and should therefor have kept their Soviet ones. Therefor, logically, shouldn't these citizenships simply have been "updated"? Why aren't they Russian citizens? :??:


Since 1992, Estonia has naturalized some 137,000 residents of undefined citizenship. 118,800 person (mainly ethnic Russians) or 8.7 per cent of the total population, are of undetermined citizenship. In Latvia, non-citizens are approximately 415 000 or 17 % of the population.

Both the European Union and the Council of Europe, as well as the Russian government, expressed their concern during the 1990s about minority rights in several countries, most notably Latvia. In Moldova, the Russian-dominated Transnistria region broke away from government control amid fears the country would soon reunite with Romania. In June 2006 Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the plan to introduce national policy aiming at encouraging ethnic Russian immigration to Russia. [52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_diaspora

Oswiu
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 02:54 PM
I find it strange though, even though the Soviet union collapsed, of which these Russians were citizens when it existed, shouldn't they have automatically gotten Russian citizenships just like all other Russians that were Soviet citizens? Even though they lived on Baltic soil when these countries became independent nations, they didn't get Baltic citizenships and should therefor have kept their Soviet ones. Therefor, logically, shouldn't these citizenships simply have been "updated"? Why aren't they Russian citizens? :??:
Bureaucratic trouble. People were still using their Soviet passports until recently in Russia, when a final deadline was set for changing over, and even at-home-Russians occasionally had a bit of bother sorting out the paperwork, some slipping through the net. There is even a well known acronym in Russian - ChBG - Chelovek bez grazhdanstva - Person Without Citizenship - for these. Imagine how many Kirgiz, Tajiks, Moldovans and Azeris there are around with Soviet passports too, anxious to get out of their homelands, and how it's not quite so straightforward as it might seem to sift Russians from among them. Soviet passports had a field for Natsional'nost' for which most concerned had 'russkiy', which you would think would make things easy but many for various reasons had the simple 'sovetskiy' instead.

Hauke Haien
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 03:49 PM
With this kind of mentality we are certainly going to have another major war between Europeans.
It is necessary to stand strong and firm in order to have a good negotiating position against the Russians. If we just knuckle under, they will recognize the fact that we are pathetic and all opportunities will be lost. Unfortunately, the Baltic states do not have the military strength to resist Russian attempts to conclude the destruction of their nations and that makes them easy prey for the United States, who are eager to infect them with their sickness.

Loki
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 04:14 PM
It is necessary to stand strong and firm in order to have a good negotiating position against the Russians. If we just knuckle under, they will recognize the fact that we are pathetic and all opportunities will be lost.

Equally, one can argue that the Russians need to stand strong and firm in order to have a good negotiating position, because the EU and US neocons are definitely not doing them any favours. It cuts both ways.


Unfortunately, the Baltic states do not have the military strength to resist Russian attempts to conclude the destruction of their nations and that makes them easy prey for the United States, who are eager to infect them with their sickness.

It's ludicrous to think that Russia is going to attack any Baltic states. That is just not going to happen anytime soon. More scaremongering from the neocons, don't believe it.

Patrioten
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 04:36 PM
Bureaucratic trouble. People were still using their Soviet passports until recently in Russia, when a final deadline was set for changing over, and even at-home-Russians occasionally had a bit of bother sorting out the paperwork, some slipping through the net. There is even a well known acronym in Russian - ChBG - Chelovek bez grazhdanstva - Person Without Citizenship - for these. Imagine how many Kirgiz, Tajiks, Moldovans and Azeris there are around with Soviet passports too, anxious to get out of their homelands, and how it's not quite so straightforward as it might seem to sift Russians from among them. Soviet passports had a field for Natsional'nost' for which most concerned had 'russkiy', which you would think would make things easy but many for various reasons had the simple 'sovetskiy' instead.This sounds increadibly fishy to me. When was the deadline set to? Are we talking about years or months? Doesn't this mean that they have been Russian citizens even in the eyes of Russia, that their citizenship has been recognized, if only up untill recently? So all this stuff about these Russians being stateless and non-citizens, it's simply false then, they have instead been Russians that have chosen not to move back to Russia and gone through the paperwork?

Oswiu
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 04:53 PM
This sounds increadibly fishy to me. When was the deadline set to? Are we talking about years or months? Doesn't this mean that they have been Russian citizens even in the eyes of Russia, that their citizenship has been recognized, if only up untill recently? So all this stuff about these Russians being stateless and non-citizens, it's simply false then, they have instead been Russians that have chosen not to move back to Russia and gone through the paperwork?

It's not quite how you see it, it's just chaotic. I think it was about three years ago or so, but I travel too much and my life is rather chaotic and so I have no sense of time! THere's an additional factor in the restrictions on movement and residence in Russia. You have to be registered where you live, and can be fined and whatnot if found elsewhere, as a vagrant. When your country includes Dagestan and Chechnya there's some sense to this. In normal life, it's just a means for policemen to get small bribes off you. I am anomalous in this regard, as I've never been stopped once in seven years, unlike most expats who get it every other month! There are problems in getting legal employment without registration, and the 'residential question' in Russian cities is a legendary and permanent problem anyway. Russia also has to try to act somehow against the wish to move to the capital. If it was a free for all, you'd have 150,000,000 people living in Moscow, and maybe 1 per 500km2 elsewhere!

And there are Russians in Estonia who are quite happy there. I have a friend in whose family there have been several mixed marriages in Talinn.

Leof
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 07:06 PM
Interesting, no doubt this is because of the lingering hatred between Balts and Russians. The Baltic lands are partially to blame though, who are treating the sizeable Russian minorities like dirt.

Good.

Have you been around the Russian border? Finland or Estonia? The Russians there are essentially every kind of thug out there. In Pieksmki, the Russian population began to get violent. Gangs of them were patrolling at night beating up derelicts and drunks. I have a few friends who got attacked.

In Estonia the Russian immigrants are disliked for similar reasons Mexician illegal immigrants are disliked in America. They create unfair competition for industry work, are responsible for an increase in crime especially crime involving drugs, prostitution, theft and assault.

And besides all the disrespect they get they still refuse to go back to Russia because afterall, they may be hated but they are making more money they would have made staying in Russia. A good wage in Russia is something like ten Euros a day!

Static Matt
Friday, November 21st, 2008, 07:37 PM
Do you really think the Russian government wants to truly make any attempt to get these people back? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spo89RwoPvs