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AngryPotato
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 12:46 AM
I'm not sure how reliable the Mirror, if its a rag please let me know.

SHAME OF ABUSE BY BRIT TROOPS

May 1 2004

Rogue British troops batter Iraqis in mockery of bid to win over people

By Paul Byrne

A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.

The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.

After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.

The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.

Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.

Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."

No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."

The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.

He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."

Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.

"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.

Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.

You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.

"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.

I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.

"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.

After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.

Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."

Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.




BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on

"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.

He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.

The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.

Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.

"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.

"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."

Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.

One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.

"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.

"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."

The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14199634%26method=full%26sit eid=50143%26headline=shame%2dof%2dabuse% 2dby%2dbrit%2dtroops-name_page.html

Strengthandhonour
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 01:14 AM
I was discussing this topic with my father this morning. I really don't think there is any "Rules" in war. Prisoners of war are prisoners of war. Maybe it's a hypocrisy for the US and the UK to do this to the prisoners, But I don't think they are terrible people for doing it, I am sure that the damn people from Iraq would do the same thing..

AngryPotato
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 01:28 AM
There were articles before the fall where the military was investigating the possible sexual abuse of prisoners. I don't remember if the Brits or the Yanks were doing it, but the soldiers were forcing the POWs to have sex with each other(male/male). Things like that piss me off because the soldiers are doing it for some type of sadist enjoyment. We will see a lot more cases like this as the coalition stays longer in sand bowl and the soldiers get longer tours over there. A man(and in some cases woman) needs to be able to take out his frustrations in some way. I don't look forward to the VA costs in 20 years when these guys are back home and beating their wives and hanging themselves from trees because they can't cope with the past.

Strengthandhonour
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 01:30 AM
That I do agree with. I think violating someones sexuality is wrong no matter what the situation is.

Razmig
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 02:36 AM
I was discussing this topic with my father this morning. I really don't think there is any "Rules" in war. Prisoners of war are prisoners of war. Maybe it's a hypocrisy for the US and the UK to do this to the prisoners, But I don't think they are terrible people for doing it, I am sure that the damn people from Iraq would do the same thing..
You're wrong, there are rules to be followed for a war and prisoners of those wars. US is there for a reason: to set an example. IMO they have no damn business in Iraq or any other country than their own. Behaviour like this only makes nations hate the "big guys" even more. It's enough that the American government has gone down the crapper, now their morals are following right behind it (and such actions very much reflect the American people and their behaviors, their morals and etc).

Anyways, Britts are some foul mouthed perverted people. =)

Strengthandhonour
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 02:40 AM
War is war. In war everything counts. This has been showed in the past numerous times. War will never be civilized.

Razmig
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 02:57 AM
Such talk is what seperates the "bad guys" and the "good guys" in war. Those who would follow through with such immoral actions that are looked down in the eyes of respectful combattant in war are usually the ones who end up losing in the long run.

I don't beleive in that "alls fair in love and war" crap. Moral and respectful Europeans dont give in to that, it's not what the culture is about. If you look into history books, all great leaders respected and understoof their enemies as much as they did their fellow countrymen. Some can say that letting such actions slip by in the hands of Europeans is why Europe is in such a mess, and it explains why they would place the blame on others. Europe has a duty, and thats to uphold their honourable place in the world.

Razmig
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 03:11 AM
Think about it this way. Was it right for Christian Lebanese to slaughter illegal Palestinians? It resulted with the desctruction of their nation. Did Milosevic help the Serbs prosper? He only got them in deeper ****. Armenia on the other hand, with its attempt to purify Armenia of Azeris has only been blokaded by all of its nations besides Georgia...what good does such hostility do? There is a right way to war, and a right way to politics. We are not living in the past any longer.

Sure, muslims have no business in Europe, or Lebanon for that matter. But in this day and age, you have to earn the respect of others for the well being of your countrymen. People before power and loyalty before succession.

Mac Seafraidh
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 03:37 AM
Personally, I do not care how the Iraqi soldiers were treated by Americans or even the British in mind that this is the topic. The reason is I dislike the Middle East, but in my moral(morality in this matter) speakings they have multilated some of our troops. Hmm, cruelty or brutal murder. That is the question.

Krampus
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 04:48 AM
Eh, I'm inclined to agree with MVSSOLINI. I'll admit I'm apathetic to the plight of Iraqi's I just don't care one way or the other what happens to them. I looked at the previous pictures, which could of been taken anywhere by anyone. I wasn't sure what the big deal was they didn't appear to be experiencing any kind of intense torture. Looked more comical or just plain weird than anything else. I also saw the pictures posted of the British solder urinating on a prisoner of war? or criminal? It didn't tug on my heart strings any. I'd question why anyone would allow themselves to be photographed engaged in such actions. I guess that's why I'm a bit suspicious. I don't see the point in troops engaging in such behavior unless it's out of pure boredom nor would I understand why they would photograph themselves in a compromising situation. Real torture would have a purpose in mind to get information out of the individual. Much worse has happened over there which we will never seen in photo or film.

What's interesting is that the government which will be installed in Iraq is going to be a fascist puppet state of the USA, it will have to be for order to be maintained. The ironic part will be how closely this new leader will resemble and run things similar to Saddam Hussein. The Shiites again will be oppressed by a ruling class minority. I wonder who will be the first to shake the new despot leader's hand? Will it be Rumsfeld again? Like he did in this link in the early 80's? This whole thing sounds very similar to the former USSR's actions in Afghanistan, except I think they were a bit more successful in gaining local support.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Razmig
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 11:49 AM
So you're saying, all Germans should be killed...all Russians are communists and that everything is completely and absolutly....absolute? Umm no...what those Iraqi's have done to American soilders only puts MORE of a burdon on America to uphold its name and not snoop to their level...come now you should know that. When someone slaps you, turn your cheek, you're only making yourself the better person.

Don't misinterprit what I'm saying, this doesn't mean Europe should stand by and watch its borders crumble. But when it comes to offences like this, there is a point to be made by those whome are expected to make the proper decision.

Strengthandhonour
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 04:03 PM
I am not saying that those soldiers did the right thing. I am just saying, Even through, There is rules in war, And the big nations should respect it. But my point is, In times of war, Everything goes, People get nervous,angry,depressed,etc and they can lose their mind easily.

Anne14
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 06:10 PM
Looks like they might be fakes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm



<LI>They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

<LI>They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.

rusalka
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 06:58 PM
But my point is, In times of war, Everything goes, People get nervous,angry,depressed,etc and they can lose their mind easily.They don't exactly look like they have lost their minds and are nervous. To me they look like a bunch of retards who have their brains between their legs and resort to the kind of behaviour that proves it when the need arises. Posing for photographs with their dicks shoved to a woman's mouth is not something I would call an unplanned, spontaneous act. Grinning in front of a pile made of naked men's bodies is not exactly a rash decision either, is it? One would have to pile them up first, and so on and so forth.