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Frans_Jozef
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 11:56 PM
[side note: For the purposes of this discourse, I am considering Brunns, Borrebies, Falids and Baltids to be UP, but not Alpines]

.


Indeed, the origins of the Alpines lay even more far back in prehistory, i.e. the Middle Paleolithic, serologically related to the Nordics and the Dinarics, all three have been named as successors of the Neanderthal people.
Borreby emerged in Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle neolithic, but I cant find precise dates and in its true form closer to Alpines and Dinarics than you surmise; most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.

Triglav
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 12:01 AM
Indeed, the origins of the Alpines lay even more far back in prehistory, i.e. the Middle Paleolithic, serologically related to the Nordics and the Dinarics, all three have been named as successors of the Neanderthal people.

Who claims that?


Borreby emerged in Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle neolithic, but I cant find precise dates

I have a book from the 20ies with some dates, but I'd have to obtain it again.


and in its true form closer to Alpines and Dinarics than you surmise; most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.

So what are Borrebies "proper"?

Glenlivet
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 12:13 AM
The ones by Coon seem to be, as is the example from Danish anthropologist Kaj Birket-Smith.


most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 12:23 AM
Who claims that?

Raymond Riquet and Huxley supports something similar for Borreby(Borreby and Northern "Dinaroids" were among the tallest people in Neolithic Europe, averaging a 170cm, equal too....Neanderthalers:Neanderthal males were about 1.7m (5ft 6in) and women 1.6m (5 ft 3 in)...Wolpoff thinks that the Central European Neanderthalers give way to the present Central Europeans, likewise is thought that the Shanidar Neanderthalers should be linked to the Taurid populations;there is evidence of artificial head deformation like cradling, resulting in flattening of the occiput).

.
Lundman in Jordens Folkstammartalks about a Germanic-Romanic bloodgroup entity with high blood gene p, less r and about the same for q, obliterating in this respect a clear subdivision in Nordics, Dinarics, Alpines and perhaps some Meds as well.
Contrary to the UP family the Alpine's arms are short and closer to the Nordic(still according to Lundman).
The rest is based on my own fieldwork in this shady terrain.
But where's smoke is fire.
And I will find the fire hearth.



I have a book from the 20ies with some dates, but I'd have to obtain it again.
Thanks, any help to date these finds is welcomed! :)


So what are Borrebies "proper"?

Unlike Bruenn, Faelids etc, not only the upper face but the whole facial structure is low and square, very much like the Afalou samples, etc..
While a brachycephalized Bruenn is still curvoccipital, Borreby is turriform, basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.

Glenlivet
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 01:03 AM
I do not understand you here. Is basion not always lower than vertex? I assume that you mean bregma instead of basion = median point on the anterior edge of the foramen magnum (Martin, 1914)).

If bregma is lower than vertex the subject is usually higher skulled.



[B]basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 01:08 AM
I do not understand you here. Is basion not always lower than vertex? I assume that you mean bregma instead of basion (median point on the anterior edge of the foramen magnum (Martin, 1914)).

If bregma is lower than vertex the subject is usually higher skulled.

Sorry, a common lapsus of mine, it's indeed bregma not basion. :)

http://www.algonet.se/~ukforsk/hembygd/granham4.htm

Glenlivet
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 01:19 AM
I thought so. No problem.

Nämen jag tackar för länken. I have seen that site before but thanks for reminding me. I shall read it again. I might translate any information that is relevant for our discussion regarding the origin and description of the Borreby.



Sorry, a common lapsus of mine, it's indeed bregma not basion. :)

http://www.algonet.se/~ukforsk/hembygd/granham4.htm

Triglav
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 06:11 AM
So what are Borrebies "proper"?

Unlike Bruenn, Faelids etc, not only the upper face but the whole facial structure is low and square, very much like the Afalou samples, etc..
While a brachycephalized Bruenn is still curvoccipital, Borreby is turriform, basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.

I see. So it's like the Afalou sample (also noted for its wide bigonial breadth) with occipital flattening, which I have seen described as Dinaric-like.

I thought there was a continuation. Since I paid not attention to the differences - do the skulls from Borreby bear more resemblance to the current population of that area or perhaps the skull from Afalou bou Rummel?

If it is the former, the population of Denmark / North Germany should be pretty much similar to it, provided there is a continuation.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, April 27th, 2004, 09:02 PM
I see. So it's like the Afalou sample (also noted for its wide bigonial breadth) with occipital flattening, which I have seen described as Dinaric-like.

I thought there was a continuation. Since I paid not attention to the differences - do the skulls from Borreby bear more resemblance to the current population of that area or perhaps the skull from Afalou bou Rummel?

If it is the former, the population of Denmark / North Germany should be pretty much similar to it, provided there is a continuation.

North Africa has its immigration stream of Bell Beaker folk, so whatever comes as blond, square-faced, snubbed, brachymorphic and planoccipital(in whatever gradation) in the former Barbary coast is either local and reinforced by a West European movement, or minorized relicts of the Beaker folk.

Continuation in what way precisely?
Coon hints on racial kinship in a north-south axis, the mesolithic Mugem finds in Portugal have indexmesocranic and-brachycranic skulls with steep arched backheads which approach the dinaroid planoccipitalism of the Dinarics and Borreby, however those of Ofnet, Bavaria are curvoccipital and between these two sites there is nothing that links these two regions.
A second route via the Balkan can be discounted.
Dinarids in the region are tardive, scant and difficult to keep apart of Armenids; Borreby and Alpines are even more rare.
Maybe there is a correlation between areas where the neolithic gracilization was less stringent and overpowering.
The Scandinavian mesolithics were broad and high-headed with very broad bizygomatic width and low upper face, altogether enough elements that under certain selective pressure and mechanisms like the occipital rotation and change of the basion(on which I will write soon a little entry) could have lead to this particular shape of occiput.
Gerhardt in his exhautive study of the Bell Beaker folk goes against the theory of dinaricization conducted by Alpine mixture; wherever cromagnoids felt their influence , the mongrelization mitigates the rugged features and hafts a more rounder occiput.

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 12:35 AM
For convenience's sake, this is the skull from Afalou bou Rummel in Northern Aftica, called AbR-28 (Weinert).

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11264

Awar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 12:47 AM
Hey, Triglav, something's wrong with the attachment.

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 12:51 AM
Hey, Triglav, something's wrong with the attachment.

Try now or try this:

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/38517/afalou.jpg

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 12:56 AM
For convenience's sake, this is the skull from Afalou bou Rummel in Northern Aftica, called AbR-28 (Weinert).

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11264

Here is Predmosti3, a Central European Cromagnoid from the later Upper Paleolithic, to compare with.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:04 AM
The skull you posted look much more orthognathous. The steep forehead and the projection of the occiput are similar.



Here is Predmosti3, a Central European Cromagnoid from the later Upper Paleolithic, to compare with.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:15 AM
The skull you posted look much more orthognathous. The steep forehead and the projection of the occiput are similar.

Steep?
Rather a bit sloping.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:21 AM
Here is Predmosti3, a Central European Cromagnoid from the later Upper Paleolithic, to compare with.


Both look very low vaulted. When do high vaulted types appear?

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Unlike Bruenn, Faelids etc, not only the upper face but the whole facial structure is low and square, very much like the Afalou samples, etc..
While a brachycephalized Bruenn is still curvoccipital, Borreby is turriform, basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.[/QUOTE]

What race is the brachycephalic factor in these brachycephalized Bruenns? Borreby?
I still think that Faelid is Borreby + Hallstatt, but I do not doubt that there is at least some Bruenn mix in certain areas also.
I believe that Northern Dinaroids are Borreby + Bell-Beaker + minor mix of Corded. This is Coon's Zoned-Beaker Type of central Germany and sporadic in northern Germany. He speaks of it only in historical terms, however, and does not apply it to modern populations.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:27 AM
I still think that Faelid is Borreby + Hallstatt, but I do not doubt that there is at least some Bruenn mix in certain areas also.


I once thought that too but I'm beginning to doubt it. Both Borreby and Hallstatt have long heads. Faelid doesn't. I wondering if Faelid is actually Alpine mixed with something else.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Both look very low vaulted. When do high vaulted types appear?

During the UP pretty close to none was indexcranially high-skulled, the means were distributed between low to medium high.
The North African Cromagnoids had lower indices than their cousins from Central Europe(orthocephalic), which is pretty amazing since they situate in the Mesolithic, an epoch that greater vaults heights are fully marching into the picture and the reverse condition becomes true, even in West and North Europe, namely a higher skull predominates the racial scene, while single out foremost the Ofnet Brachycephals, none has chaemacephalic means.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Phalian is long or medium headed. I do not know what you mean.

Whatever anthropologist define Borreby as shorter headed.



I once thought that too but I'm beginning to doubt it. Both Borreby and Hallstatt have long heads. Faelid doesn't. I wondering if Faelid is actually Alpine mixed with something else.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:34 AM
About the same time, the Brünn in Eastern Europe.



Both look very low vaulted. When do high vaulted types appear?

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:40 AM
What many people call UPs are actually UP-mixes, with the UP being quite dominant. UPs in their original form (I'm talking northern UPs - Bruenn, Borreby), being extremely tall and robust, and very large-headed, are extremely rare. Most of what is called Bruenn or Borreby today, is perhaps about 60%-75% UP, only rarely more, while the mixed types - Phalian, Anglo-Saxon, Troender, etc. have less than that. For a look at 3 individuals who are fairly close to being true Bruenns see Coon's Plate 4 - Bruenn Survivors in Scandinavia Figure's 1, 2 and 4. All 3 are from west coastal area of Sweden. All have stature 175cm+, Head Length 208+, Head Breadth 152+, CI 75.5 and lower. The variation in some of their features (eye and hair color, etc.) is probably due to slight admixture with other stocks - not the same in every case.

Awar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:44 AM
Please tell me what region produced what UP type, and what corresponding DNA?

Iberia=R1b= ?
Balkans=I= ?
Pontic-Caspian region=R1a= ?

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:47 AM
I once thought that too but I'm beginning to doubt it. Both Borreby and Hallstatt have long heads. Faelid doesn't. I wondering if Faelid is actually Alpine mixed with something else.

Actually, true Borreby is brachycephalic. The closest representatives to the original Borreby form are Fehmarn Islanders in the Baltic Sea. They have a CI of 83.6. After that, the Jaeren Norwegians have a CI of about 82 or 83, Meckenburgers (NE Germany) close to that.
If you isolate the actual Borrebies within these populations they average about 84-85.
The Faelid areas, i.e. northern Germany average about 81-82, and contain some individuals that show a type of dinaricization, while others simply fall between the end types in CI, FI, etc.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:48 AM
Please tell me what region produced what UP type, and what corresponding DNA?


I believe UP originated in the Middle East.

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:52 AM
I believe UP originated in the Middle East.

If you believe in the Bible, all types originated in Middle East.
Also UP is not a race, but a time period. There are many races that could be termed as UP.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 01:56 AM
If you believe in the Bible, all types originated in Middle East.
Also UP is not a race, but a time period. There are many races that could be termed as UP.

UP is both a time period and a racial type that existed at that time.

I don't believe in the Bible.

Euclides
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 02:01 AM
I have read that the rise of the borreby type occured as bell beaker dinarics moved north and mixed with UP types. This new blended type received it's cranial roundness from the dinaric, yet retained the low, broad UP face, as well as fair colouring, and heavy build.

Another theory that could be true is the mixing of faelids with taller, brunet alpines. I have noticed that faelids are more muscular than a 'pure looking' borreby, but borrebies are heavier due to their much more common fatness. I'm inclined to believe this theory, because it seems that borrebies lie metrically between faelid's and alpines, yet i'm unsure.

I was wondering what everyone else thought about this topic?


How can we differ a Borreby from a Alpine craniometrically?

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 02:52 AM
[QUOTE=cosmocreator]UP is both a time period and a racial type that existed at that time.

What race is it then? I was under the impression that Borreby, Bruenn and Alpine, and others are all "UP", and I don't see many similarities between them.

cruhmann
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:00 AM
How can we differ a Borreby from a Alpine craniometrically?

Borreby has a much larger face and head than Alpine and is larger in all measurements. The shape of both head and face is squarish, in ciontrast to the rounder Alpine face/head. Also, the Borreby type is much taller and even heavier and larger-boned. All this, in addition to being to being blond compared to the Alpine intermediate or dark/intermediate mixed pigmentation.
By the way, Alpines and Borrebies overlap and mix with each other in the southern Netherlands, NE France and Wallon-speaking Belgium, and sections of Germany that border these areas.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:56 AM
What race is it then? I was under the impression that Borreby, Bruenn and Alpine, and others are all "UP", and I don't see many similarities between them.

Alpine occurred later. They are considered UP derived. Brunn and Borreby have similarities. Large headed, large boned, very muscular.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 04:09 AM
How can we differ a Borreby from a Alpine craniometrically?

BORREBY

Measurements (mm)
Height (cm)........................172 to 184
Head Length.......................197 to 210
Head Breadth......................165 to 175
Minimum Frontal Breadth.......114 to 128
Bizygomatic Diameter...........148 to 158
Bigonial Diameter.................115 to 127
Total Facial Height...............120 to 149
Upper Facial Height...............71 to 80
Nasal Height........................54 to 65
Nasal Breadth......................36 to 46
Biorbital Width.....................96 to 106
Interorbital Width.................35 to 44
Cephalic Index.....................79 to 89
Facial Index.........................76 to 94
Upper Facial Index.................45 to 54
Nasal Index.........................55 to 85

ALPINID
Measurements (mm)
Height (cm)........................162 to 172
Head Length.......................186 to 195
Head Breadth......................159 to 167
Minimum Frontal Breadth.......103 to 116
Bizygomatic Diameter...........134 to 152
Bigonial Diameter.................111 to 117
Total Facial Height...............115 to 130
Upper Facial Height...............66 to 76
Nasal Height........................50 to 63
Nasal Breadth......................32 to 39
Biorbital Width.....................87 to 96
Interorbital Width.................31 to 38
Cephalic Index.....................82 to 90
Facial Index.........................76 to 97
Upper Facial Index.................43 to 57
Nasal Index.........................51 to 78

cosmocreator
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 04:13 AM
Phalian is long or medium headed. I do not know what you mean.

Whatever anthropologist define Borreby as shorter headed.


I'm going by Coon (with minor alterations) in my thread Racial Classes.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5871

There can't be too much overlapping otherwise it becomes meaningless.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 11:10 AM
You must mean McCulloch and SNPA. Coon himself did not have a Phalian type in his scheme. Günther coined the term and to him it was a long or medium headed type common in Westphalia. It is also a long headed Nordid type in the scheme of Lundman.

"Die fälische Rasse ist (breit(niedrig)=gesichtig und lang=bis mittelköpfig"
[Kleine Rassenkunde Des Deutschen Volkes von Prof. Hans F.K Günther, München, 1933]

Thus, the Phalian race is broad and low faced and long to medium skulled.





I'm going by Coon (with minor alterations) in my thread Racial Classes.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5871

There can't be too much overlapping otherwise it becomes meaningless.

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 11:33 AM
...and Croatia was one of the last holdouts of Neanderthal, which might suggest a UP link.

Skerlj was of the opinion that the greatest concentration of Cro-Magnids in ex-Yugoslavia was in Dalmatia.

nordic_canadian_male
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Here is Predmosti3, a Central European Cromagnoid from the later Upper Paleolithic, to compare with.


That looks very much like a neanderthal skull, maybe a possible hybrid. Impressive browridge.

Awar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:04 PM
What would you say about this skull ?
How does it look to you?

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:11 PM
What would you say about this skull ?
How does it look to you?

Prominent browridges and flaring gonials. UP Europid? That is all I can say without a frontal view. The zygomatic bone actually reminds me of Cro-Magnon man.

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Here's my conjecture: ;)
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=110817&postcount=95

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 04:09 PM
High-skulled Borreby? :scratch

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Here is Predmosti3, a Central European Cromagnoid from the later Upper Paleolithic, to compare with.

Yes, but this is the only Predmosti skull with Neanderthaloid features (unlike the other Predmosti skulls).

It's the famous no. III:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11269

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Here's Prdemosti III from different angles:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11315

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Predmosti IV, a Cro-Magnoid type devoid of Neanderthaloid elements:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11317



http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11318

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Predmosti skulls:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11319

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Here is one of the Borreby skulls from Denmark.

Awar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Frans and Atlanto-Med, could you please check this out and thell me your opinions.
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=10794

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 06:59 PM
High-skulled Borreby? :scratch


This is what Frans said, and I assumed this was one of the borreby skulls because of the discussion when I first saw it. But if so this is different to the Borreby example which I posted. I don't really know much, about the Borreby type.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 07:12 PM
High-skulled Borreby? :scratch

There is no such thing as a low vaulted Borreby.

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 07:16 PM
There is no such thing as a low vaulted Borreby.

Well, Borreby seems per se higher-vaulted than Cro-Magnon, but this one seems to personify that. I was referring to the high vertex. What would be the appropriate expression instead?

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Well, Borreby seems per se higher-vaulted than Cro-Magnon, but this one seems to personify that. I was referring to the high vertex. What would be the appropriate expression instead?

Hipsicephalic?

Triglav
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Hipsicephalic?

It seems it's HYPSICEPHALIC:
Possessing a length-height index of 62.6 and over on the living; high headed.

High-headed -- that's what I was looking for.

Thanks for adding that word to my vocabulary nonetheless. ;)

Frans_Jozef
Saturday, May 1st, 2004, 11:49 PM
What would you say about this skull ?
How does it look to you?

A Chalcolithic *Dinaroid*, usually with a longer face and more saillant nose than Borreby, but with much lower upper face than the actual Dinarids.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 06:29 AM
Tell me, Predmost 3 looks definately like a male. What is the sex of Predmost 4?

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, May 2nd, 2004, 10:09 AM
Tell me, Predmost 3 looks definately like a male. What is the sex of Predmost 4?

Predmost 3 is a male(cranial capacity: 1610cc, Cr.I. 71.9, LHI 66, bizygomatic breadth: 142cm, UPI 53.5, Orbital index 69, N.I. 50), Predmost 4 is a female(cranial capacity; 1520cc, Cr.I. 75.4, LHI 71.2, bizygomatic breadth: 136, UPI 47.1, Orb.I 71 and N.I. 56.2).

Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 04:03 AM
Coon thought Afalou-bou-Rummel, "Mechta" was a UP from Europe+Capoid which re-immigrated into Europe in Mesolitic/Neolithic times. He discusses Schweinhurtenkultur along with it. BUT, has anybody seen any genetic evidence that Borrebys are not as fully Euorpean as any other European population? I have not. If this is true, then it means Borrerby is just a UP varient. Coon also says the Irish UP type is half-way between Bruenn and Borreby making this European origin even more probable.

Euclides
Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Indeed, the origins of the Alpines lay even more far back in prehistory, i.e. the Middle Paleolithic, serologically related to the Nordics and the Dinarics, all three have been named as successors of the Neanderthal people.
Borreby emerged in Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle neolithic, but I cant find precise dates and in its true form closer to Alpines and Dinarics than you surmise; most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.


Are borrebies associated to Ahrensburgian culture in N Europe?

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 11:31 PM
Are borrebies associated to Ahrensburgian culture in N Europe?

Ahrensburg is a local cultural complex of the wider spread Hamburgian Culture(13000-10000BC) which developed side by side with the southernly from North Spain till the Carpathians reaching Magdalénian, and that covers North France, the Netherlands, North Germany and Denmark.
It's tempting to think Borreby being linked to the Ahrensburgians, but given the racial types of that time, notwithstanding prior to brachycephalisation, possess certain qualities that can be retrieved in more recent populations, it wouldn't be so wrong to determine an origin of Borreby that way back and among the Hamburgian complex.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 07:11 AM
The Mechta type differs form most living Borreby in having extraverted gonial angles and heavy brow ridges. Let's return to Europe. Dr. Wernher von Braun
was a perfect example of this type in my mind. Not only was he the perfect Borreby, but he was the most successful scientist-engineer who ever graced this planet. If anyone is even considering Borreby as the Uebermensch and using Dr. von Braun as an example, he has my vote.

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Coon thought Afalou-bou-Rummel, "Mechta" was a UP from Europe+Capoid which re-immigrated into Europe in Mesolitic/Neolithic times. He discusses Schweinhurtenkultur along with it. BUT, has anybody seen any genetic evidence that Borrebys are not as fully Euorpean as any other European population? I have not. If this is true, then it means Borrerby is just a UP varient. Coon also says the Irish UP type is half-way between Bruenn and Borreby making this European origin even more probable.

ref.:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=119212#post119212

The Oberkassel male has a more than passable resemblance to the Afalou types.
The vault is largely rounder as the whole skull, it doesnt reveal that special dome-like feature of the Mechtoid's vault that could be in an imaginative twist be described like a hill whereby the top is flattened; a feature that recurs in some Bell Beaker Dinaroids.
Oberkassel is however leptorhine and has a jutting nose bone, unlike the North Africans.

Curiously, the implication stated by Hooton of some crossing between Capellids and Neanderthals in the examination of the Mechtoids, is more likely fullfilled in the Oberkassel specimen.
At least, on a post-cranial level, namely in a barrel-shaped chest and forward bowing of the femur; otherwise in stature(172.4cm) and length of the limbs neanerthaloid survivals are not invoked, nor does he look specifically adapted to a cold environment("arctic" features).
Bonnet mentions the absence of fossae canina, but other documents keep silence on this issue.

The objects found around him are related to the Magdalénian phase(a piercer with stilized animal head), nothing that somehow could make out of him some early Ibero-maurisian or Mechtoid who wandered before the Capsians into Europe.
UP+Aterian blends produced on both sides of the Mediterrenean similar types, and an early stream of Solustréans fled out southwards and mingled locally with descendants of Herto(who btw looked as an overgrown but uncommonly flat-nosed Veddoid; his skull wasn't so much different to Jebel Irkoud and to be honest, some Neanderthals had identical skull profiles...so Hooton and coon were both right, but the UPs cross-breeded with a more advanced type that not entirely made it to step over the species threshold dividing Neanderthals and pure sapiens, if ever such a division really existed...), which explains the more flattish noses, could be bounced as too fancifull and assuming too much.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004, 05:26 PM
The three main Brachycephalic types of the Northeuropean Plain: Orrouy, Moën and finally, the one which captures the audience's imagination ;) ,Borreby.

Nordgau
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Looks somehow common to me. What book is that?

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004, 09:32 PM
My own copy of Gustav Kossinna's of Ursprung und Verbreitung der Germanen in vor -und frühgeschichtlicher Zeit; I'll re-scan the pictures next week when I am finally liberated from toiling with a boring paper, these one arent fully succeeded.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 04:31 AM
It looks to me like the individual on the page by himself in the Borreby. This is a great work, Frans. Perhaps this could be scanned on to the SPNA (or whatever it is) site. Notice how rugged this skull is. The forehead recedes and looks even more rugged than Afalou-bou-Rommel in this area. No wonder it was sometimes cited as a Neanderthal derivitive.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 09:39 AM
It looks to me like the individual on the page by himself in the Borreby. This is a great work, Frans. Perhaps this could be scanned on to the SPNA (or whatever it is) site. Notice how rugged this skull is. The forehead recedes and looks even more rugged than Afalou-bou-Rommel in this area. No wonder it was sometimes cited as a Neanderthal derivitive.

Id like to see the Sequanian type, which has been interpreted as showing Neanderthal racial admixture, despite its age. I found an abstract that appeared to suggest the presence of pre-modern features in this racial type.

I actually find AbR-12 to be within a group of moderns that shows evidence of admixture from non-moderns.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Id like to see the Sequanian type, which has been interpreted as showing Neanderthal racial admixture, despite its age. I found an abstract that appeared to find archaic features in this racial type.

This is the abstract. The article is "The Mesolithic and Neolithic Skeletons of the 'Abri des Autours' (Province of Namur, Belgium)" by Caroline Polet and Nocolas Cauwe, and its in the first Comptes Rendus Palevol. I think its in two languages because the title and the abstract were given in English and French.

"The ‘Autours’ rockshelter (province of Namur, Belgium) excavated in 1992–1993 revealed three burials dated to different periods. Two of them are collective and belong to cultural contexts for which funerary practices were until then unknown. The first belongs to the Middle Neolithic and contained the remains of three adults and six children. In the second burial dated to the Early Mesolithic, six adults (one of them was cremated) and six children were discovered. The most ancient burial corresponds to a single interment. It is also dated to the Early Mesolithic and it contained the skeleton of a mature woman. The biometrical study of the fossils shows the presence of archaic morphological features."

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Combe Capelle(Aurignician) and the Obercassel male(Magdalénian).
Taken from Georges Montandon's L'Homme préhistorique et les Préhumains.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Id like to see the Sequanian type, which has been interpreted as showing Neanderthal racial admixture, despite its age. I found an abstract that appeared to suggest the presence of pre-modern features in this racial type.

I actually find AbR-12 to be within a group of moderns that shows evidence of admixture from non-moderns.

Its been said, maybe by Coon, that without the brow ridges of the classic neanderthal, this race would have been brachycephalic. Frans thinks its still reasonable to speculate that there is a lineage through neanderthals, through the Borreby and through the Mosan race to the Alpines.

My own opinion is that the Borreby type is actually a robust Osteuropid, emreging from the admixture of an Alpine lineage into a Nordic type. The difference being the robisticity of the Nordic type, or that the later Osteuropids are a gracilised form of Borreby. It could also be, that the Alpine type contributing to the Borreby was also robust, and maybe showing evidence of neanderthal admixture.

The Mosan types are the ones at the top and Trou Garcon 2, at the top left, is the most typical one of the two.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, August 11th, 2004, 09:41 PM
My own opinion is that the Borreby type is actually a robust Osteuropid, emreging from the admixture of an Alpine lineage into a Nordic type. The difference being the robisticity of the Nordic type, or that the later Osteuropids are a gracilised form of Borreby. It could also be, that the Alpine type contributing to the Borreby was also robust, and maybe showing evidence of neanderthal admixture.


Borreby precedes the actual formation of the East Baltid race, which origins remain somewhat in the dark; its highly mutable phenotype east of the so-called Eastern Meridian, a line dividing Atlantic from Caspid Europe, running more or less from Haparanda(Sweden) to Triest, suggests it evolved in several loci, where upon a basic mix of Borreby/Northern Alpinids with lower-vaulted, medium-statured Cromagnoid-B types with its center in the Bükk area but probably linked to the Cromagnoids in Hessen en Westphalia Danubians and Lapponoids entered in the game.

Fischer noted that in Scandinavia the flat-rooted, concave nose imposes itself over leptorhine, high-bridged noses, the former type of noses are common to paedomorphic Danubians and Lapponoids, the Borreby in the West had longer noses and snubness in the Atlantic zone has another character than in East and Central Europe.
Borreby was not necessary the agent for brachycephaly in the EB, but is accountable for the cuboid skull with flattened occiput and the high frequency of occiptal buns in e.g. Finnland.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, August 12th, 2004, 06:14 AM
Combe Capelle(Aurignician) and the Obercassel male(Magdalénian).
Taken from Georges Montandon's L'Homme préhistorique et les Préhumains.


Look at the width of the mandible in Obercassel and the extraverted gonial angles. Also, the skull length is so much shorter in Obercassel and the nose is more prominent. It looks alike a male version of Ingrid Bergmann. This is the first time I have ever seen the nasal bones for Obercassel. Were they not lost or something giving rise to the speculation that Obercassel was a proto-mongoloid. The jaw in profile is more finely chiseled and modern-looking than Combe Capelle. This is more great work Frans.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, August 12th, 2004, 06:20 AM
Its been said, maybe by Coon, that without the brow ridges of the classic neanderthal, this race would have been brachycephalic. Frans thinks its still reasonable to speculate that there is a lineage through neanderthals, through the Borreby and through the Mosan race to the Alpines.

My own opinion is that the Borreby type is actually a robust Osteuropid, emreging from the admixture of an Alpine lineage into a Nordic type. The difference being the robisticity of the Nordic type, or that the later Osteuropids are a gracilised form of Borreby. It could also be, that the Alpine type contributing to the Borreby was also robust, and maybe showing evidence of neanderthal admixture.

The Mosan types are the ones at the top and Trou Garcon 2, at the top left, is the most typical one of the two.

Borreby could certainly be of east European origin. How do you derive the big bones and lateral build the Borreby from the mixture of Alpines and Nordics? Is this an example of heterosis (hybrid vigor)?

Do you have any pictures of the Sequanian material?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, August 12th, 2004, 06:28 AM
Borreby precedes the actual formation of the East Baltid race, which origins remain somewhat in the dark; its highly mutable phenotype east of the so-called Eastern Meridian, a line dividing Atlantic from Caspid Europe, running more or less from Haparanda(Sweden) to Triest, suggests it evolved in several loci, where upon a basic mix of Borreby/Northern Alpinids with lower-vaulted, medium-statured Cromagnoid-B types with its center in the Bükk area but probably linked to the Cromagnoids in Hessen en Westphalia Danubians and Lapponoids entered in the game.

Fischer noted that in Scandinavia the flat-rooted, concave nose imposes itself over leptorhine, high-bridged noses, the former type of noses are common to paedomorphic Danubians and Lapponoids, the Borreby in the West had longer noses and snubness in the Atlantic zone has another character than in East and Central Europe.
Borreby was not necessary the agent for brachycephaly in the EB, but is accountable for the cuboid skull with flattened occiput and the high frequency of occiptal buns in e.g. Finnland.


In both the cranial and post cranial skeleton, Borrebys remind one of Neanderthals, at least at first glance. What do you think of the idea that the first UPs entering Europe picked up a little Eastern or Generalized Neanderthal blood and became Bruenn. Later, these same people moving West encountered Western or Classic Neanderthals in extreme Western or Northwestern Europe, mixed just a little bit, and became Borrebys.

Sapiens skulls were alread bent at the sphenoid and passed this characteristic on to the hybrid neanderthal/sapiens. The browridges were thus rolled into the vertical position and lost their former prominence. The frontal remained thick and flat in the hybrids, however. The cranium shortened with this rolling and without the brow ridges, as Atlanto-Med says, the skull became brachycranial in Borrebys.

If you believe that Neanderthal ancestry seperates Europeans from other races, even if those genetic markers haven't been identified yet, and Borrebys retail more Neanderthal characteristics than other living Europeans, then isn't the study of the Borreby type and history absolutely critial and central to the study of Europeans themselves?

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, August 12th, 2004, 01:56 PM
Borreby could certainly be of east European origin. How do you derive the big bones and lateral build the Borreby from the mixture of Alpines and Nordics? Is this an example of heterosis (hybrid vigor)?

I was referring to the robust proto-Nordics, the Cro-Magnids, as contributing into the Borreby type. The true Nordic is a gracilised Cro-Magnon type, which was perhaps gracilised by southern admixture. In my opinion, either the Osteuropid is a gracilised Borreby or emerged by an Alpinoid admixture into a gracile Nordic population.

I also think the Alpines are partly descended from pre-moderns, so the original Alpine contribution to Borreby may have been robust and with neanderthaloid features. The trend towards brachycephaly shown in Alpines may have started with neanderthaloids with their wide vault.


Do you have any pictures of the Sequanian material?

Im sorry, but I don't think that I do. When I asked for one, Frans said he sent me a picture but I don't think I recieved it.

Gareth
Friday, October 29th, 2004, 08:05 PM
1. I believe those photos I attached show good examples of what Borrebies look like. If any of them is a not so correct, please elaborate.

2. Borreby = Blond brachycephal. But it overlaps a bit with Phalian and Baltic.

How strong is the impact of the Borreby ("ancestral race"?*) on the Phalian? The soft parts of what walks around today are similar, the skull-dimensions differ.

Aren't Westphalia and the regions bordering to the north and west more typical for Cro-Magnon influence than Borreby? The appearance I mean could be called "overgrown Nordic" and/or Bruenn.

The Borreby-type of Coon should be divided into Borreby and Günther's proper Phalian. Could this Phalian type be a stabilized manifestation between Cro-Magnon and Alpinoid? It's creates much less Alpinoid results than Alpine thus far. My paternal family in the north of Phalia is an example; the grandmother is somewhat Alpinoid, but of my 16 cousins only 1-2 pertain to pyknic type:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/familianfoto_k.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/cousins4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/cousins5.jpg
The woman is my step-mother.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/familientreffen2.jpg
(just on the fringe)

My uncle - an example of Cro-Magnoid?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/grandmotheruncle2middle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/uncle2atmyparentswedding.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/uncle2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/Familie/Grosseltern%20V/relatives/familientreffen_k.jpg


* Brünn and Borreby should often be found in solution, and perhaps the latter should be seen as an ancestral (read R Biasutti, R Nordenstreng, G Backman etc.) race.

I also saw that Earlson, a well-read man in the field of anthropology, got a similar concept for Nordish. He believe that Borreby is the same as Fenno-Nordid.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, October 29th, 2004, 11:09 PM
3. Just so assure we're talking about the same phenomenon, is the following skull representative for the Central European Alpines of today?

Yes, that skull is Alpine.

Gareth
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Yes, that skull is Alpine. Of the skulls I have in a humble database, a Scandinavian Mesolithic skull most resembles the Alpine skull (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14075), followed by a Cro-Magnon one (real origin?). See attachments below.

What makes you think Neanderthaloid and not brachycephalization as an adaption?

Also, do you think extraverted gonial angles have a specific source (e.g. the typical Cro-Magnons)?

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 02:19 AM
Of the skulls I have in a humble database, a Scandinavian Neolithic skull most resembles it, followed by a Cro-Magnon one (real origin?). See attachments below.

What makes you think Neanderthaloid and not brachycephalization as an adaption?

Also, do you think extraverted gonial angles have a specific source (e.g. the typical Cro-Magnons)?

I dont think that brachycephalisation in modern Europeans is an adaption, because this idea started as an explanation for the differences between Mesolithic and Neolithic Nubians, and the dental evidence suggests that the Mesolithic Nubians were replaced by farmers with a West Eurasian or North African relationship (a similar thing to this happened after the arrival of Europeans in North America).

Although Alpines became more common in medieval Europe it doesn't explain their origins, and Alpines with neanderthaloid features are known from the Mesolithic and Neolithic. The presence of wide frontals is a feature found in neenderthals and Upper Paleolithic Europeans, as well as Alpines so this suggests continuity between neanderthals and modern Europeans.

Because extraverted gonial angles aren't specific to moderns, it doesn't make sense to attribute them to one type of moderns.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 06:51 AM
There was some talk years ago of round heads and disease. The idea went that the human body produced heat (a fever) to kill pathogens. A round head was able to retain heat better than a long, thin head and so these round heads were able to defeat some types of disease that their long-headed brethern could not. I have no references on this, this is just from memory, and I have no idea if it is valid or not.

Awar
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 02:57 PM
Anyone got more info on that mini ice-age that hit Europe during medieval times?
It could explain things, perhaps about brachycephalics being selected IN, and dolichos OUT, as in medieval times, people used to die a bit more often ;)

Triglav
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 03:26 PM
I dont think that brachycephalisation in modern Europeans is an adaption, because this idea started as an explanation for the differences between Mesolithic and Neolithic Nubians, and the dental evidence suggests that the Mesolithic Nubians were replaced by farmers with a West Eurasian or North African relationship (a similar thing to this happened after the arrival of Europeans in North America).

You mean (Borreby-like) Afalou or Mechtoid brachycephals?

Gareth
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 05:24 PM
I've heard about that too but this mini-ice-age took place at the end of the Middle Ages.

Wolff's point is interesting as well. I will start a new thread with some maps showing the plague's spreading.


Anyone got more info on that mini ice-age that hit Europe during medieval times?
It could explain things, perhaps about brachycephalics being selected IN, and dolichos OUT, as in medieval times, people used to die a bit more often ;)

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, October 30th, 2004, 07:43 PM
You mean (Borreby-like) Afalou or Mechtoid brachycephals?

The Neolithic Nubians were relatives of Egyptian populations migrating up the Nile. I dont know their exact racial type, but Neolithic Egyptians and Nubians would have been more gracile than the Iberomaurusian type.

And incidentally, the association of Mesolithic Nubians with Iberomaurusians isn't supported anymore by dental or craniometric evidence, according to Irish. The cranial similarities are present because of the robusticity and the Nubians have dental tendencies towards subsaharan populations, not towards North Africa.

Triglav
Sunday, January 16th, 2005, 09:40 PM
More info here:

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=253972

Euclides
Tuesday, January 18th, 2005, 06:07 AM
The three main Brachycephalic types of the Northeuropean Plain: Orrouy, Moën and finally, the one which captures the audience's imagination ;) ,Borreby.


Hmmm...

There is something familiar on this Borreby Skull...It looks like me !What´s similar is the weakly keeled vault and the broad face, but the mandibule is very different.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4924

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, January 18th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Frans, I hate to say it but now, every time I look at your posting of the Obercassel skull, I see Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, January 18th, 2005, 10:31 AM
Frans, I hate to say it but now, every time I look at your posting of the Obercassel skull, I see Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld.
I gave you reputation points applauding your snazzy wise-cracking, but your heartbreaking felony to compare this most Byzantine and inviolable of Magdalénian skulls which lines up our NW European ancestry to an uncouth loggerhead requires moderation.:|



:dwink :jk

catchmeifyoukhan
Monday, January 31st, 2005, 10:49 PM
I had a date two days ago with a young woman from Burgundy and when looking at her, I could'nt help thinking at The Oberkassel woman. Such bony cheecks I never saw before. I'll post a picture asap

cruhmann
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 12:52 AM
The three main Brachycephalic types of the Northeuropean Plain: Orrouy, Moën and finally, the one which captures the audience's imagination ;) ,Borreby.

Are Orrouy and Moën simply Borreby with other mixture or seperate types? If so, where do they fit in modern times?

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 01:06 AM
Are Orrouy and Moën simply Borreby with other mixture or seperate types? If so, where do they fit in modern times?
Borreby is a special, coarser and less prevalent Sippe type of the former two; basically they're Alpinids, Orrouy leads to the common Alpinid as found in West Europe and tends strikingly to fair hair and lighter skin tones, while Moën could be identified as the Northen Alpinid with round skull without turriformism as in Borreby, but the brows are likewise pronounced.

There's some lambdoid flattening in Orrouy, also a tendency to a turriform vault.
It's not illogical to assume that Borreby is a mix between Orrouy and Moën resulting in an archaic-looking hybrid.

Nordgau
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 07:41 PM
Gerhardt in his exhautive study of the Bell Beaker folk goes against the theory of dinaricization conducted by Alpine mixture; wherever cromagnoids felt their influence , the mongrelization mitigates the rugged features and hafts a more rounder occiput.

Apropos, I guess you already know it well, but seeing Gerhardt's name here, I just wanted to allude in respect to that whole thread here that there's in the "HOMO" volume of 1969 an article of him: Der sogenannte Borreby-Typus.