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Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 07:58 AM
I believe that the depigmentation in Europeans, most noticeable in the north, is derived from Neanderthals. Secondly, depigmentation in the hair and eyes is restricted to Europe, where Neanderthals have their central location. Since most inward migrations have pushed the inhabitants of Europe from it's outward fringes to it's innermost locale, it would make sense with the depigmentation limited to areas of the old Icecap. After all, what is the Ginnunga Gap if nothing but the start of memory for the Northmen to whom they would ascribe the formation of the land? The older memory had been forgotten, kept subconscious until finding dinosaur and other megafauna bones brought back animalist memories, triggering their latent inherited genes of eye and hair colour. What made the Nordic man want to hunt Big Game in Africa like they were invincible? The Nordic man was anciently fearless towards cold and beast alike, not taking crap from their human foes either. They sometimes had little thought to care when it came to overpowering their more southern neighbours after the ice melted. To them, they were practically impervious to pain. I believe the Neanderthal/Nordic man deliberately pursued their prey into the cold and overtook them. I believe red hair/green eyes, is a blend between blond/blue Neanderthals and brown/brown Cro-Magnons, the gap in at least pigmentation differences between humans and their antecedants...just in Europe. :-O

nordic_canadian_male
Wednesday, April 28th, 2004, 03:48 PM
I also believe in neanderthal admixture in some modern types, especially the brunn type. long-headed, red-haired, blue eyed, tall, robust people can definetly look towards neanderthals as their creators.

I was found that the red-haired gene dates back to 50,000 bc, much earlier than the supposed arrival of cro-magnons at 30,000 bc. I believe 40% of scots carry that gene, suggesting that neanderthal admixture was extensive, but possibly masked by the mechanism of evolution, meaning quite rapid reduction of teeth, body, and cranial size.

Nordics are physically closer to meds than UP, but genetically closer to UP peoples. I came to the conclusion that the cro-magnons that mixed with neanderthals were a genetically very similar people. Basically a small group of cavemen, those who didn't mix withneanderthals became nordics, other who did became UP, explainning why nordics and UP are at times different and at others very much the same.

If you look at some UP skulls you'd definetly see the connection. All europeans having an origin in the near east, some then changed by a certain neanderthal infusion.

Those molecular clocks they always speaks about are to fast, many believe the eve theory is bullshit, and believe that the clock points not too 120,000 years ago for a common ancestor, but to 500,000 ago, right to homo erectus.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, April 29th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Thanks, NCM. My point was to show how isolated the blond/blue is from the rest of euro forms and the red/green is like a buffer zone between the atlantids and borreby, making brunn some hybridal form. The people didn't migrate over land at that time, but around the south coast to the west coast and then on the north coast. To keep it simple, blond/blue eyes did not come from the Danube, for that would have been far too late in history and when Swedish and other tribes were colonising Eastern Europe towards the Black Sea, a totally different time period. Depigmentation would haves started earlier for blond/blue than red/green. From dark to light is how it goes! I don't believe the propaganda that blonds/blue deserve homeland in the East. That is a political construct! I have blond and blue, but my feelings see the east as a weird place. I prefer the cold north with bears and elk and char!

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, April 29th, 2004, 08:32 AM
I was referring to the east being slavic territory as primarily "nordic". As I've stated elsewhere, slavic is a blend between borreby and dinaric.

If I am expected to dish this out, perhaps people should think a little about stereotypes in the geopolitical landscape of europe. I think many waves came from the southwest and southeast, cramming the most ancient europoid neanderthals into the north. Since the newer people avoided the cold, they stayed further south and monopolised the continent, as modern man. A fusion was formed from brown complexioned atlantids in the northwest with yellow complexioned in the northeast, yielding the red complexion in the middle north.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, July 3rd, 2004, 09:54 PM
Here the reproductive isolation of the neanderthals is questioned, because neanderthals are not found to be very different to non-European archaics. One chacter shows a difference between the Europeans and the non-Europeans, which was the mastoid height from the digastric sulcus, but since those of pre-Neanderthal Europeans were unusually tall and those of the later neanderthals was unusually short, it seems that foreign admixture had affected the shift between the pre-neanderthal and neanderthal mastoid heights. Only two characters examined decrease in variability over time, while some others increase in variability.

Northern Paladin
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Neandertals and Modern Europeans are totally different. Even to an untrained eye the Neandertal Skull and Build is Drastically different to that of Modern Europeans. Cro-Magnon man was much closer.

If Neandertals weren't isolated? Why the Drasitic difference in Skull Morphology and Build? From Modern Europeans?

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Neandertals and Modern Europeans are totally different. Even to an untrained eye the Neandertal Skull and Build is Drastically different to that of Modern Europeans. Cro-Magnon man was much closer.

If Neandertals weren't isolated? Why the Drasitic difference in Skull Morphology and Build? From Modern Europeans?

Nobody argues that we are not from an immigrant origin, but there is evidence for neanderthal admixture in Europe. The last known European neanderthals are intermediate between neanderthals and moderns.

But this is about the origin of neanderthals themselves, from pre-neanderthal Europeans. Paleoanthropology isn't only the study of the origins of moderns.

Northern Paladin
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 10:59 PM
The last known European neanderthals are intermediate between neanderthals and moderns.

This had almost no impact on the European Gene Pool.


Neanderthals seem to be The Native Hominids of Europe. Cro-Magnons relative new comers from Africa.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 11:06 PM
This had almost no impact on the European Gene Pool

That mignt or mignt not be true, in western Europe. I think Saint Cesaire 1 proves that some hybridisation happened, so there must have been at least some. Do you think that this, is from a modern or a neanderthal?

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Neanderthals seem to be The Native Hominids of Europe. Cro-Magnons relative new comers from Africa.

Yes, theis is the issue at the transition between the Middle Paleolithic and the Upper Paleolithic in Europe.

Northern Paladin
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 11:21 PM
That mignt or mignt not be true, in western Europe.

Picasso might be living proof at least to Hybridization Buffs. Have to admit he looks quite the Cave man. :P Saw a documentary on PBS that addressed this issue and cites Pablo as a Primitive "Mutt" :P


Do you have pics of Saint Cesaire? With the Neanderthal Face it's the Mouth,Large Balbous Nose, Prominent Brow Ridges, Sloping forehead and Swept back look of the Cheek bones, Long head with Occipit.



Do you think that this, is from a modern or a neanderthal?

Some Primitive Homonid(perhaps Homo Erectus) otherwise a small headed Neanderthal. But far away from being a "Modern" Sapien Skull. Brow Ridges are too Prominent. Forehead too sloping. Absence of Mental Eminence. Also Progranthism is obvious. Small Cranium.

Not bad for a guy who always fell asleep in Anthropology class eh? :P

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Some Primitive Homonid(perhaps Homo Erectus) otherwise a small headed Neanderthal. But far away from being a "Modern" Sapien Skull. Brow Ridges are too Prominent. Forehead too sloping. Absence of Mental Eminence. Also Progranthism is obvious. Small Cranium.

Actually, it is Saint Cesaire 1, which was found with an Upper Paleolithic tool industry.

As well as the skull showing modern features, the locomotor position of Saint Cesaire 1 shows an intermediate position between neanderthals and moderns.

I don't see what is like erectus about Saint Cesaire 1. Compared to classic neanderthals, Saint Cesaire 1 appears more modern, not less modern, than these neanderthals.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 01:11 AM
Some Primitive Homonid(perhaps Homo Erectus) otherwise a small headed Neanderthal. But far away from being a "Modern" Sapien Skull. Brow Ridges are too Prominent. Forehead too sloping. Absence of Mental Eminence. Also Progranthism is obvious. Small Cranium.

Not bad for a guy who always fell asleep in Anthropology class eh? :P

Neanderthal crania are as large as those of present-day UP races.
In comparison to recent Australian Aboriginals the browridges of Neanderthalers are thinner and less developed.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 01:32 AM
This had almost no impact on the European Gene Pool.


Neanderthals seem to be The Native Hominids of Europe. Cro-Magnons relative new comers from Africa.

So what?
The Moderns seemed to rely a lot on Neanderthal lithic innovations like the leafpoints, which made it throughout the Pleistocene, albeit refurbished by the Gravettians in a smaller outfit and wherever hearths of these artefacts appear, they coincide with the distribution of the former llocal substrate of Mousterian signature.

The Aurignicians probably diffused from Central Asia, but its oldest sites are located in the Balkan, Temnata and Bacho Kiro in Bulgaria, afterwards in along a Mediterrenean fringe connecting North Italy over the Provence with Catalonia.

Northern Paladin
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 08:48 AM
I don't see what is like erectus about Saint Cesaire 1. Compared to classic neanderthals, Saint Cesaire 1 appears more modern, not less modern, than these neanderthals.

I don't see what is so "Modern" about Neanderthals. Who names a fossil homonid Saint Cesaire? Sounds more like a 3rd Century Christian Scholastic. How appropriate. :hrm

Whoever Saint Cesaire I was I doubt he was a pretty cite and he probably wasn't to gifted in intellect either. Hence the extinction of his line.

I don't know why you all have a Fetish with Neanderthals. All evidence has pointed them out to be Hulkish Brutes with 10 times more Brawn than Brain.

With that said I am glad most Europeans Resemble the Gracile and High Vaulted Cromagnon and not the Beetle browed Behemoth the Primitive Neanderthal.


Neanderthal crania are as large as those of present-day UP races.

Structure of the Brain is just as important as Size. Just having a big brain doesn't make you some kind of Prehistoric "Einstein". The Size of the Crania of Europeans actually went down so now the average european mean of today is actually smaller than that of the average mean of Cro-magnon Crania size.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 12:12 PM
I don't know why you all have a Fetish with Neanderthals. All evidence has pointed them out to be Hulkish Brutes with 10 times more Brawn than Brain.

Northern_Paladin, I kindly but strongly suggest to rephrase your line which borders at arrogance and is overt hostile to her person by its baiten insinuation.
Throughout her membership here, she has proven to be a great asset to our Forum.
Her diligence and earnestness in her study and provision of cutting-edge resources is remarkable, examplary and a standard to measure our own participation and adherence to Skadi.
She earned the respect and friendship of the Staff.
Many scholarly and interested members owe her much.
We may disagree with her viewpoints, but bringing her into derision makes you only sink low.
I will in due time reply at the rest of your lofty musings, work goes first now.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 02:11 PM
[B]Northern_Paladin, I kindly but strongly suggest to rephrase your line which borders at arrogance and is overt hostile to her person by its baiten insinuation.

I didn't find him rude, I think it was just a turn of phrase Frans.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 02:13 PM
I don't see what is so "Modern" about Neanderthals. Who names a fossil homonid Saint Cesaire? Sounds more like a 3rd Century Christian Scholastic. How appropriate. :hrm

Well, Saint Cesaire is the name of the site in France.

Northern Paladin
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 08:05 PM
If I have Offended anyone I Apologize. Just some frivolous remarks and careless musings of a seriously bored guy. :P

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 10:18 PM
If I have Offended anyone I Apologize. Just some frivolous remarks and careless musings of a seriously bored guy. :P

Don't worry, Frans just misunderstood.