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Siegfried
Wednesday, October 26th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Masonry: The Struggle for the Soul of Europe
by Norman Lowell


At the very beginning of Man’s appearance on earth, social groupings proved better able to cope with the fight for survival in a harsh environment than the individual. Within such groupings or tribes these must have always formed further, inner circles, or secret societies. Such eclectic clans continue to exist in every culture right to the present day.

These fraternities were originally nothing more than those individuals who had proved themselves superior to the common fold. These supermen recognised each other and aggregated naturally to protect themselves from the envy and mediocrity of the herd.

The originators of fire, for example, must have kept the secret for quite some time since such knowledge, like any other innovation, gives power to the holder for as long as he manages to keep it his own.

Knowledge is power – and the quest for knowledge, and its safekeeping away from the many-too-many, is the raison d’etre of some secret societies, including Masonry.


Origins
The history of Masonry stretches back at least to the Pharaohs, probably further back to the Sumerians. In the course of centuries, Masonry was heavily influenced by the Judaic Kabala. There is a strong dose of the latter in Masonic rituals, with a curious blend of Christianity at the intermediate levels.

Scottish Masonry dates back further than British Masonry. Recently discovered tombstones in Argyle, Scotland bear unmistakable Masonic markings. These tombs belong to the Knights Templar who fled continental Europe during the Papal persecutions of 1309. They are a testimony to the far-ranging geographical spread of the cult.

In Eastern Europe -- Germany, Poland and Russia -- the Teutonic Knights were likewise Masonic. These Knights were formed by Papal decree in 1198 and escaped the persecution and torture by the Papacy and King Philip which befell the Templars. The Teutonic Knights welcomed some of the fleeing Templars who went east, rather than to Scotland. These joined the Teutonic ranks and carried on as professional fighters.

It is only natural that the Masonic Knights Templar influenced the Teutonic Knights. The vast knowledge and the rituals of the former were shared with the German Knights. These in turn became the precursors of Germanic, nationalistic Masonry.


Purpose
The original purpose of Masonry must have been the quest for the answer to the fundamental question as to the origin of the Race – the White Race. The question where did we come from? must have haunted us from time immemorial. The second query, which naturally follows the first, is what are we here for? And the third, where are we heading? completes the triangle.

All this, Masonry, as an elitist, eclectic and erudite group, has tried to answer. Apart from such fundamental questions, Masonry gradually evolved a defensive mechanism to protect what had been achieved. Every heart-rending sacrifice, every achievement which benefited the race, had to be preserved, protected.

Masonry, as any leader-group or culture-bearer would have realised, must have concluded that the preservation of the race as an intact, cohesive sub-species, is the sine-qua-non for the preservation of all knowledge hitherto acquired.

After all, the Arcane Tradition specifically teaches us as to what brought the destruction of our ancient forebears; the Lemurians. These had committed the unpardonable sin of bestiality – they had mixed with the Negroid race. This had not only brought them down, but also spawned the emergence of the other, inferior coloured races. These are today known as the ”under-developed world” and which no amount of help will ever lift from their eternal, genetically pre-determined misery.

Masonry therefore, became a two-pillar organisation. On one part it sought, discovered the hidden knowledge and on the other, acted as an inner layer, defence-mechanism for the White Man. The Broeder-bond in South Africa, which for many years protected the interest and welfare of the White minority, was a microcosm of Masonry on a world scale.

This is borne out by the simple fact that only White males are eligible to enter Masonry. In America Negroes are excluded and have formed their own lodges, which are unrecognised by White ones. Moreover, severely crippled or handicapped persons are barred from Masonry – a clear indication of the purpose of Masonry to act as guardian for the preservation of the best within the species.

Such noble aims must be the reason for Masonry’s attraction to some of the best racial types; Charles Lindbergh, General MacArthur, Henry Ford and others, including Washington. Such fascination prevails even today and most of America’s presidents like Truman, Nixon, Reagan, and Bush were all Masons. Truman was also a member of the Ku Klux Klan, testifying to the perfect compatibility between racism and Masonry.

The unmitigated disaster is that today, individuals who have the preservation and improvement of the White race at heart, continue to join Masonry in the belief that the fraternity is still faithful to its original aims. But is it?


Subverted
The battle for the control of the heart and mind of Masonry was fought and lost sometime between 1925 and 1935.

Edward VIII, the British monarch who was forced to abdicate in 1936, was a Mason who believed in true Masonry and its aims. He was an unashamed admirer of the Germans and von Ribbentrop, the German Foreign Minister, was one of his best friends. Edward was initiated into Masonry in a small Scottish village – by the village postman.

By and large the British people stood by their King in his terrible, personal dilemma. The international-manipulators however, conscious of the fact that with him on the throne there could be no war against Germany, put on the pressure through their hold on the world press and eventually forced him to abdicate. As ex-monarch he was a frequent visitor to The Hero’s berghof before the war.

As has been stated, Scottish Masonry dates back further than British Masonry and is ingrained in the Scottish culture. There are whole villages in Scotland whose every male member of qualified age is a Mason.

Scottish Masonry, unlike British Masonry, has by and large remained faithful to the original aims of the organisation. This is borne out by the ingrained and strong feeling of nationalism and sense of race-consciousness of the Scots to this very day.

There is no doubt that in the decade just before the Second World War, British and French Masonry were taken over by the international-manipulators – lock, stock and gavel.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, written in 1897, (in Hebrew), translated and published by Prof. Nilus in 1905, describes in detail the sinister manipulation of Masonic Lodges in preparation for the Russian revolution and the First World War.

As for the control of the press, Protocol 7 states: “The world media, with a few exceptions which can be discarded, is already entirely in our hands.” All this as a prelude to the “World Government emanating from Zion” or, in today’s language “A New World Order”.

There is no doubt that in the decade just before the Second World War, British and French Masonry were taken over by the international-manipulators. Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Jewish Congress, declared total war on Germany as early as 1933 – financial, economic and if need be, military.

The world media, by now firmly under the control of the international-manipulators, headlined Chaim’s war declaration all over the Western world. The old lies of German atrocities in Belgium during World War One, fabricated stories of babies bayoneted and barbecued, re-appeared as facts in the mass media.

By now, many of the top Masons in Britain and France were Jewish.

Instead of serving as a protector, preserver of the White race, Masonry from 1925 onwards became a hidden subversive element at the pinnacle of power within the major European Nations. It now served a diametrically opposite end; a weapon wielded by the international-manipulators to isolate National Socialism and lay the ground for the greatest fratricidal folly ever witnessed: The Second World War.

Since then English Masonry has been nothing less than a poniard held by the international-manipulators at the bared breast of the hoodwinked and noosed White man.


Germany and Scotland
Germany too has a strong Masonic tradition. Like that of Scotland it is intensely nationalistic and racialist. The Hero, contrary to the lies we are told that he persecuted Masons, was intimately connected with Ostara, the patriotic Masonry with lodges all over Germany and Austria. He knew both Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfels, and met the great English mystic Houston Stewart Chamberlain in Bayreuth in 1923. He was also profoundly influenced by the Thule adept Dietrich Eckart.

In Mein Kampf (Hutchinson’s Original illus. Ed., page 273) he writes; “and in the freemason organisation, which had fallen completely into his hands, the Jew found a magnificent weapon which helped him achieve his ends. Government circles, as well as the higher sections of the political and commercial bourgeoisie, fell a prey to those plans though they themselves did not suspect what was happening.”

His deputy, Rudolf Hess, was a top Ostara Mason and an expert on World Masonry. He knew every single lodge in the world and kept records on them. He was in close contact with Scottish Masonry. In 1939 Hess flew all the way to Scotland in a final, desperate attempt to prevent war amongst racial cousins. He could easily have flown to Dover, Cornwall or Margate, but instead chose the hazardous, long solitary flight to the north of Scotland. His aim was to meet Scottish masons and urge them to convince the British fraternity to avert the slaughter.

Churchill, an English Lodge Mason, was by now completely under the control of the international-manipulators. In 1938 Henry Strakosch (not a Zulu) had given him one hundred and fifty thousand pounds and shares in South African gold mines in order to bail him out of his personal financial troubles. Churchill killed the Hess peace attempt. He even refused to meet him!

After the war, Rudolf Hess, a true hero of Europe, the man who could have saved millions of slaughtered Whites, languished in solitary confinement for nearly half a century – a sentence not even fit for a murderer. We were led to believe that it was the Russians who had objected to his release throughout these long years -- however, when Gorbachev assumed power, one of his first acts was to publicly call for the release of Hess. Guarda caso, the British resolutely refused and finally, Hess died mysteriously at Spandau prison during the British term of custodianship. One autopsy hurriedly concluded that he had died of strangulation with a telephone wire after jumping off a table. The second autopsy, by a foremost forensic expert, agreed that yes, death was by strangulation – but that Hess had been throttled from behind. There was no evidence of the telltale jerk produced by a fall.

Hess died just as world opinion was pressing for his release. A re-united Germany, just a year away, would surely have released him. Hess had to die – why?

Hess had to die because on his release Europeans would have been told who were the real schemers, perpetrators and victors of World War II. We would have been told that Britain knew, conclusively and without a shadow of a doubt – that it had the proof, in writing and endorsed by a former monarch - that Germany would never attack her if left alone to crush Jewish Bolshevism. We would have known that World War II was nothing more than a struggle for the soul of Europe – won by the international-manipulators.


Rosenberg
Alfred Rosenberg, the philosopher of National Socialism, whose book The Myth of the 20th Century, written in the 1920s, underpinned The Hero’s political and racial philosophy, says nothing against Masonry – not a word. This proves that top National Socialists, up to this time, viewed Masonry as a positive factor in the survival of the race.

Rosenberg states only that National Socialism will solve the problems of the volk “not through the humanism of Free Masonry, but through National Socialist political philosophy” - that is all.

Rosenberg too was an Ostara member of high rank and an expert on world Masonry and religions – including the Eastern ones. He read all the Indian sacred books – in the original language. He had intimate knowledge of the I-Ching, studied Confucius (whom he admired greatly) and also Lao Tsu. Nobody who reads his books can have any doubt as to his great erudition.

He was also the world’s first “Green,” writing about the long-term effects on the race by increasing mechanisation and even skyscrapers! He advocated the de-industrialisation of Germany, by concentrating industry in clearly defined and limited areas. He was the first to tackle the problems of pollution and its effect on future generations – this in the early 1920’s!

It is significant that the present-day Greens were founded by August Haussleiter, a veteran of the beer-hall putsch. In 1980, Rudolf Bahro, the East German dissident, discovered the positive side to Nazism and launched his idea that Europe needs an eco-dictatorship, an eco-fascism – a Green Adolf! He envisioned a Green party that would stand for the preservation of every species – including the racial preservation of the White race.


The SS
Rosenberg’s Masonic affiliation and wide knowledge of most religions influenced Himmler, the high priest of the SS. Members of this elite were simply the best fighting units during World War II. This was not through their better training or equipment, but through their ideological and spiritual underpinning.

Himmler created rituals for aspiring SS officers and had a medieval castle in the forests of Wewelsberg, Westphalia, a castle once the property of the Teutonic Knights, turned into a veritable temple for the SS.

One ritual included the burning of the clothes of twelve disciples/aspirants, as they formed a circle. The drinking of each other’s blood mixed with a potent alcoholic concoction from a common chalice followed. Then came the ‘raising’ of the young men to the upper chamber, where elderly SS officers awaited them with their new uniforms and rank.

By now The Hero was portrayed during these rituals as a Messiah, a saviour of the race – and put on a par with Christ and Mohammed. Had Germany emerged victorious from the conflict, there is little doubt that a new, nature-oriented belief, befitting and benefiting the White man, would have supplanted Christianity.

The Bond forged amongst the SS during such rituals made them formidable fighters throughout the war, amazing the Russians who greatly outnumbered the Germans on that particular front. The French are fascinated by the cult of the SS right up to this day. Books on this fighting force are published in all languages every year.

A special SS department was formed to study world Masonry and, upon the conquest of France, this unit took up as headquarters the Lodge of the Grand Orient at 18 Rue Cadet in Paris. The international conspiracy against Germany became evident from the files discovered within the Lodge.


Final Struggle
World War II was nothing more than the continuation, by military means, of the struggle for the soul of Masonry and hence, for the Soul of Europe. It was a struggle between German Masonry, with the tacit approval of Scottish Masonry on one part, against British and French Masonry, by 1930 both firmly under the control of the international-manipulators.

The struggle continues to this very day, and European patriots, new leaders, are re-kindling the embers left after that epic but premature struggle that was World War II. Anyone who travels to either Germany or Scotland cannot fail to notice the inherent nationalistic and racialist attitude of both peoples. This has been inculcated through centuries of Masonry – authentic Masonry.

In 1939, German and Scottish Masonry stood for Race, Nation, Family and Aryan order. British and French Masonry, subverted from within at the highest levels, stood for universalism, equality, multi-racialism, liberalism and Jewish chaos.

We shall soon witness another, final, life or death struggle – a last heroic attempt to wrest world control from the hands of the international-manipulators. A struggle between these two eternally opposing forces, these two irreconcilable concepts of life. A supreme struggle for the Soul of Europe.

This time, there is no doubt who will emerge victorious.


Magna Europa est Patria Nostra!

Keep healthy

Norman Lowell
IMPERIUM EUROPA
November 2003

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Surely an interesting - and controversial - take on the Freemasons. Thoughts? :)

Vikingland
Tuesday, May 23rd, 2006, 06:27 PM
you want my thoughts? amazing article.
but i don't think everything would have been all good and dandy had the nazi's won the war. If Hitler and Himmler were so teutonic, as you would put it (which it would definitely seem so, with their religious and political ideologies), then what is thier obsession over objects such as the spear of destiny, along with esoteric Christianity. Why was Himmler so interested in Grail legends and what was Hitler's hatred towards figures such as Rudolph Steiner. I definitely believe the nazi's were working towards the right goal, but going about it the wrong way. Your thoughts?

nordicdusk
Tuesday, May 23rd, 2006, 06:44 PM
you want my thoughts? amazing article.
but i don't think everything would have been all good and dandy had the nazi's won the war. If Hitler and Himmler were so teutonic, as you would put it (which it would definitely seem so, with their religious and political ideologies), then what is thier obsession over objects such as the spear of destiny, along with esoteric Christianity. Why was Himmler so interested in Grail legends and what was Hitler's hatred towards figures such as Rudolph Steiner. I definitely believe the nazi's were working towards the right goal, but going about it the wrong way. Your thoughts?
Good point about the right path just the wrong way about it.I agree with this totally.Also could you give us an introduction please.

Sigurd
Wednesday, May 24th, 2006, 11:55 PM
you want my thoughts? amazing article.
but i don't think everything would have been all good and dandy had the nazi's won the war. If Hitler and Himmler were so teutonic, as you would put it (which it would definitely seem so, with their religious and political ideologies), then what is thier obsession over objects such as the spear of destiny, along with esoteric Christianity. Why was Himmler so interested in Grail legends and what was Hitler's hatred towards figures such as Rudolph Steiner. I definitely believe the nazi's were working towards the right goal, but going about it the wrong way. Your thoughts?

Hmmm....well, Hitler was a fundamentalist Christian, and his hatred of Judaism arose out of this. This was common at the time, too, especially in rural Austria, where people were quite religious - and in fact all leading Christians taught at that time to seek revenge on the Jews for the cruzifixion of christ. Well...even Martin Luther, the reformator wrote a book that in these days would count as nothing but anti-semitic. And of the Heathens - the only one he didn't send to KZ was Guido von List, more or less. Those who followed his teachings, went there. In any case, in one speech Hitler actually declared it being obsolete, and Christianity way superior to it; and whatnotall.

Well...
So what was the right goal they were working towards? You always have to remember, that this was 70 years ago, and people would be much more patriotic anyway. Bismarck in our day and age would get labelled a "Nazi" by the mainstream, etc etc. I do appreciate the way that they did away with the Versailles treaty and gave everyone work etc etc etc; but it's nothing you couldn't have done differently. So, hmmm... I see you argument, though. They did some things that would be worth repeating, such as rewarding mothers, giving people work, making cars and housing affordable, allow Germans to be proud of their ancestry, and a few other things. For just about 70% of the rest, I'll say - throw NS on the pile of rubbish.

Gorm the Old
Saturday, June 3rd, 2006, 03:10 AM
Concerning anti-Semitism, I think that attributing it to a desire to punish the Jews for crucifying the Christ is a subterfuge to conceal a resentment of the Jews which has other , perhaps deeper, causes. First of all, those who call the Jews "Christ-killers" deliberately ignore the fact that it was the Romans who crucified him, not the Jews. Pilate is depicted as a weakling who yielded to the pressure of a Jewish mob and ordered the execution of a man in whom he found no fault. We should bear in mind that this is but one side of the story, the Christian side. (I am ignoring for the moment that there is not one shred of evidence that the trial and crucifixion of Jesus ever took place.)
...The Nazi Gauleiter of Denmark (sorry, I've forgotten his name) once asked King Christian X how Denmark dealt with the Jewish problem. King Christian's reply was "We do not have a Jewish problem. You see, we do not feel inferior to them." Mark Twain once remarked that he thought that anti-Semitism is based primarily on envy. Whatever else one may think of them and on whatever grounds, it is undeniable (despite the efforts of some Neo-Nazis to do so) that the Jews are, in some areas, especially medicine, mathematics, and music, an uncommonly talented people. This, coupled with their unfortunate ethnic trait of "chutzpah", has engendered much resentment.

Sigrid
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Egil it is gratifying to say the least to read your posts on this subject. I have always naturally had a response to racism accusations that mirrors that of your Danish example. I simply do not feel inferior to any race so I do not hate anyone on account of their ethnic manifestation. I do detest many of the things people do and this applies across the board. I am a confirmed misanthropist and will be until humanity starts to behave in a responsible manner. This, I am certain, is the whole aim of Professor Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy. The message is loud and clear - grow up, put away your magic and start taking responsibility for yourselves. This, in Tolkien's metaphysics, is the finest way to reverse the departure of the Elves and the dwindling of the trees.

But back to the Jews and your comments on their abilities to get places and make cash. I believe that this has less to do with race and more to do with certain evolutionary necessities. The Jews were a wandering folk, a persecuted folk for various reasons, often related to this lack of an identity and land to go with it and so they began at an early stage to develop a religious view, a code of survival and a tribal attitude that caused them to be able to focus on things that other people don't tend to do.

The Vikings did this very well too, by taking to raiding as a source of revenue and trade when they lacked living space. They have been portrayed by various neo nazi groups as grim-faced, humourless, unmaterialistic saints who venerated the peasant lifestyle and abhorred wealth. This seemingly caused the "Aryans" to occupy a position several notches above the so-called "greedy" Jews.

All nonsense. The Vikings loved wealth and jewels and material possessions. They used to bury silver in large chunks in the foundations of their houses. They had an aristocratically oriented religion and social structure. Odin is the God of the warrior kings. Freya is a lovely, sexy manifestation of a combination of fertility, well being, riches and beauty. Hardly a simple peasant girl with clogs and bagful of turnips.

People accuse the Jews of loving gold but everything in Nordic and Germanic mythology shines with the light of this precious metal which is related to the power of the sun itself. Gold is Freya's tears. Wealth is power. Land ownership is considered important. A man and his "acre" is the cornerstone of independence.

Education seems to be a Jewish priority in the professions when you look at the numbers of Jewish professionals in comparison with others, but Odin is the God of wisdom. He searches constantly for truth and finds this in a study of the world brought to him directly by his two ravens. I have been insulted by many so-called right wing people because I am educated. They have treated me as though I were some kind of disease. No wonder the Jews get so far. No one in a Jewish family ever attacks another Jew for making something of himself or marrying well or getting as far as he can. We have "Chutzpah" too in our own way, everyone does, and it's a living tragedy that socialism has robbed people of the ability to see through all this communal philosophy and miss the thing that has made America great - the ferocity of a love of individuality and freedom and a great respect for hard cash and its capacity to change lives and make the world a better place.

There really is absolutely no merit in toiling like a serf because you mistakenly think there is some hidden ideal in this simple existence as it is purported to be opposite to that of the Jews. You will end up poor, arthritic, old before your time, and die anonymous. Our ancestors would be horrified if they could see what directions Marxism has caused so many to travel in.

I know some people think the Jews are particularly smart and talented but I don't believe they are. I believe they are willing to put a lot of effort into being successful and I know that they get this to work by being some of the biggest racists on the planet. They are folkish beyond all things and they help one another and stick together like glue. Our problem is that we keep fighting one another, from the foundations of the family to the state. We are warlike and it could kill us if we can't find some way of channelling our useful aggression and pioneer spirit into more folk friendly methods of survival.

To a large extent we are our own worst enemy. And we need to do something about this before we kill ourselves off.

Gorm the Old
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Yes, Sigrid, I am well aware that not all Jews are smart or talented. I have known stupid and very untalented Jews. The Jews themselves have a name for this: Nebbish. A nebbish is a man who, by sheer force of personality and persistent effort, succeeds in accomplishing absolutely nothing. Indeed, I have known a nebbish. He was the father of a friend of mine, a very nice person who would have made a fine Talmudic scholar (one of his major interests) but who, as a businessman, was an utter disaster. He had a genius for entering a business just after its peak and riding it down to oblivion. Nebbish Murry was by no means stupid; he was very intelligent but lacked the practical smarts to come in out of the rain....On the other hand, the most brilliant man I have ever known was Jewish and the greatest pianists and violinists of the 20th century were (almost ?) all Jewish. There is much in their accomplishments to envy and there are altogether too many people who would rather envy than emulate.

Sigrid
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 08:20 PM
And people don't pay enough attention to how much the Jews satirize themselves of late. Nor how many of them are atheists. I think that considering the psalms of David we should realise that poetry was with them from the beginning but enormously increased by the addition of the Ashkenazim and Sephardic factions who are partly European.

The Christians have done a lot of damage to themselves by hating "Christ killers" when, as you so rightly said, there is no evidence of the object of their adoration let alone his being crucified and even then it was by the Romans. That recent film by the cerebrally challenged Mel Gibson about the crucifixion was very embarrassing and massively anti-Semitic. To think people were flopping over and dying during its performance. I felt really unsettled at all this hysteria. It isn't normal. It isn't like us. It's weird and unnatural and so like the Islamic fundamentalists they love to hate, or like twelve year old girls at a Beatles concert in 1964. :(

skyhawk
Monday, March 12th, 2007, 03:32 PM
We have "Chutzpah" too in our own way, everyone does, and it's a living tragedy that socialism has robbed people of the ability to see through all this communal philosophy and miss the thing that has made America great - the ferocity of a love of individuality and freedom and a great respect for hard cash and its capacity to change lives and make the world a better place.


I know we are all entitled to our opinion but who besides Americans ( there are none so hopelessly enslaved as those who believe themselves to be free) and " Yo " Blair think that America is great? It is a rich and powerful country but in my eyes these are not prerequisites of greatness. I certainly don't think America is viewed as being great and judging by the weekly burning of the stars and stripes around the world ( due to Americas imperialist ambitions that ride roughshod over other nations right to individuality and freedom ) i am not on my own.

Since when has " respect for hard cash " made the world a better place ? The persuit of hard cash certainly has the capacity to change lives but thus far has only served to change them from the living to the dead. I am sure the old adage "money is the root of all evil " predates Marxism.

Gorm the Old
Monday, March 12th, 2007, 05:01 PM
I must seriously challenge the statement that America's ambitions and foreign policy (of which I do NOT approve) are imperialistic. If we were imperialists, having won a military victory in Iraq, we would have taken over the country, occupied it , set up martial law and made it a colony.

Instead, we tried to make a nation self-governing, which it has NEVER been in its 6000 year history. We overthrew a despot, which it was not in our national interest to do. Having done this, we had no further role to play there and should have gotten out.

The only imperialistic venture in which the US has ever engaged was the Spanish American War. We seized Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines, over the protests of many famous Americans. Only Puerto Rico remains to us.

Though there is an independence movement there, it has little popular support, despite not being suppressed by the "imperialist" US government, because most Puerto Ricans realise that they are far better off economically as a US territory than they would be as an independent nation.

The seizure of the Hawaiian Islands by the US was certainly imperialistic, but it was not done by the US government, but by a gang of businessmen who held up Queen Liliuokalani at gunpoint in her palace and stole Hawaii from her.
Granted, the US government approved the fait accompli .

One valid claim to greatness which the US has is that it is still the Land of Opportunity. No one is being prevented from emigrating, but almost nobody is doing it. However, millions are clamoring to get IN and share our prosperity and those rapidly eroding freedoms which we still retain.

We are still the most philanthropic nation on Earth, BAR NONE. Whenever there is a disaster anywhere in the world, to whom do they turn for aid ? England ? France ? Germany ? Russia ? NO, the USA because our generosity is legendary .

Is any other country in the world giving away billions of dollars in foreign aid ?
If we are so greedy and materialistic, we ought to keep our money at home. BTW, it is not money which is the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money.

While I am up on my soap box, I should like to ask the anti-capitalists here what they would substitute for venture capital in starting new businesses.
To start any kind of a business, one needs MONEY. If it be a manufacturing business, one needs a building, machinery, raw materials, advertising, and wages to pay the employees before anything has been made or sold. Where is this supposed to come from ?

If it be a mercantile business, one has to have a stock of goods to sell. They have to be paid for. Who is paying the bills before anything is sold ? Whoever provides this money is a capitalist. Except in a barter-based economy, capitalism is unavoidable.

Yes, I know, in the late unlamented Soviet Union, the state owned all the businesses and provided the venture capital for them. This was just state capitalism. Socialism replaced individual capitalism with state capitalism. Judging from the abominable quality of manfactured goods produced under this system, it didn't work very well. Constant shortages of consumer goods would seem to imply that a state-capitalist economy , masquerading as Socialism, didn't benefit the workers much either.

I am curious to know just what IS supposed to constitute greatness ? In what ways does the USA fall short of this standard ? And, for that matter, if the USA isn't great, WHO IS ?

skyhawk
Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 05:41 AM
Hello Egil ,

If i have offended you in my statement sincere apologies. As Orwell said " It is not the right for free speech it's the right to say what people don't want to hear. "
I am very respectful to the elders of a community. And I don't mean that in a patronising way whatsoever you have to believe me on that. The passion in your reply defending your beliefs is admirable . I probably won't reach the age you have but if I did I would be proud to hold the same passion and I know I would too. We are not so different just looking from opposite directions.

Passion is one thing anger is another. As I am new I know not where you write from , so , out of respect for you I wish not anger you further with a series of ongoing posts but I think your passion deserves an answer. I will try to be thoughtful.

I will always defend socialism and seek to expose Capitalism as the fraudster and poverty breeder i believe it to be. It's a massive debate. I remember in your first post welcoming me you told me that nobody would try and convert me to Heathenism and i respect that. I likewise have no intention to try and convert anybody to socialism. I have many passions . Animals and their treatment , the environment , music, football etc socialism is just another one.

I must seriously challenge the statement that America's ambitions and foreign policy (of which I do NOT approve) are imperialistic. If we were imperialists, having won a military victory in Iraq, we would have taken over the country, occupied it , set up martial law and made it a colony.

If you do not approve of the foreign policy you must have doubts of your own . I have read your posts and I think that you are a nice person. This , I think, is why you have those doubts.

As for Iraq not being a colony, as you said yourself mission achieved but no sign of withdraw. Colonialism has changed . Occupation is it's new name. Colony implies a long term commitment. Occupation is more flexible it allows you to get in , do what needs to be done ( for ones own gain ) and get out when the commitment pledge comes into play.


Instead, we tried to make a nation self-governing, which it has NEVER been in its 6000 year history. We overthrew a despot, which it was not in our national interest to do. Having done this, we had no further role to play there and should have gotten out..

I was no fan of Saddam . There are many despots in the world . Many genocides to intervene in but the proposed noble aims this conflict were imho a smokescreen for the resource war we have embarked on. Saddam in Iraq , Chavez in Venezuela , Iran all anti american , all with the oil . They know if the oil stops the US stops



The only imperialistic venture in which the US has ever engaged was the Spanish American War. We seized Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines, over the protests of many famous Americans. Only Puerto Rico remains to us.

I know of this war. Cuba has fared better than the other two certainly as regards the welfare of its people despite spending decades under sanctions. A remarkable feat considering their main sponsor died many years ago now , the USSR . Both the others are poor countries.


Though there is an independence movement there, it has little popular support, despite not being suppressed by the "imperialist" US government, because most Puerto Ricans realise that they are far better off economically as a US territory than they would be as an independent nation.

No need for suppression , Egil , people have watched the US military machine in action. The interdependence of nations makes "independence" a hopeless cause for many poor nations



The seizure of the Hawaiian Islands by the US was certainly imperialistic, but it was not done by the US government, but by a gang of businessmen who held up Queen Liliuokalani at gunpoint in her palace and stole Hawaii from her.
Granted, the US government approved the fait accompli

It doesn't always merit an army to overthrow a government or monarch . The governmental approval is to me proof of at the very least ,and i think you'll agree I am being kind here, some vested interest of some sort. I can't imagine them dumping tony blair and approving the gunman who forced his resignation, more's the pity


One valid claim to greatness which the US has is that it is still the Land of Opportunity. No one is being prevented from emigrating, but almost nobody is doing it. However, millions are clamoring to get IN and share our prosperity and those rapidly eroding freedoms which we still retain.

We are still the most philanthropic nation on Earth, BAR NONE. Whenever there is a disaster anywhere in the world, to whom do they turn for aid ? England ? France ? Germany ? Russia ? NO, the USA because our generosity is legendary .

I have found loads of americans to be really nice caring people. I am not judging or condemning the american in the street . But the foreign policy of the american goverment is what people of the world WILL judge american people on. If americans looked out more instead of in all the time they would know what I say to be true. Your foreign policy misrepresents the good people of the US.

All the countries you have mentioned give as much if not more in relative wealth. American commerce is legendary.






Is any other country in the world giving away billions of dollars in foreign aid ?
If we are so greedy and materialistic, we ought to keep our money at home. BTW, it is not money which is the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money. .

I would like to see the figures for foreign aid and compare that with national income. The countries you are so charitable to are poor only because of the exportation of slavery . They are rich in resources but the wealth from these resources line the pocket of other nations

I agree its your love of money dictates your foreign policy . AS you have said people come to enjoy the wealth in the US. Where do you think that wealth comes from? It's a simple equation for someone to have a pile of money someone has to have hardly any. The US never abolished slavery they exported it.



While I am up on my soap box, I should like to ask the anti-capitalists here what they would substitute for venture capital in starting new businesses.
To start any kind of a business, one needs MONEY. If it be a manufacturing business, one needs a building, machinery, raw materials, advertising, and wages to pay the employees before anything has been made or sold. Where is this supposed to come from ?

If it be a mercantile business, one has to have a stock of goods to sell. They have to be paid for. Who is paying the bills before anything is sold ? Whoever provides this money is a capitalist. Except in a barter-based economy, capitalism is unavoidable.

Yes, I know, in the late unlamented Soviet Union, the state owned all the businesses and provided the venture capital for them. This was just state capitalism. Socialism replaced individual capitalism with state capitalism. Judging from the abominable quality of manfactured goods produced under this system, it didn't work very well. Constant shortages of consumer goods would seem to imply that a state-capitalist economy , masquerading as Socialism, didn't benefit the workers much either..

For true socialism to answer the questions you have raised about how to replace the money trick you must be prepared to read what its greatest thinkers Marx , Lenin suggest. I think what we have seen in the relatively short spell of Socialist States is a small glimpse of what could be achieved .

I know most americans have stopped looking at the former USSR since the cold war but if they did they would see the mess that place is in. They have massive unemployment , chronic and I mean chronic drug and alcohol abuse the women escape by selling themselves on the web . If you knew how bad it has gone since the end of communism, and let's be honest , i think had Lenin not died when he did and the common front comprise of large numbers of participating countries ie had the german , hungary, france etc revolutions been successful we might be looking at socialism in a totally different light today.


I am curious to know just what IS supposed to constitute greatness ? In what ways does the USA fall short of this standard ? And, for that matter, if the USA isn't great, WHO IS ?

Nobody is great. Thats the whole point. We all know intinctively what is right and what is wrong , we don't need a leader to tell us. Poverty is wrong , fact. The Oil war is condemming millions of people to death. We are heading for a calamity here. We have the sun for free but theres no money to be made in daylight. You can't control the market.

Capitalism WILL fail , it eats itself to death. Whether the planet survives its demise is not so certain . I believe if you do nothing to improve the future you are the enemy of your children.

As I said at the start Egil, I have not come here court outrage. Or recruit soviets. The point is we are all being lied to. Some believe and some don't.

skyhawk
Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 02:44 PM
I thought I would clarify my position to everybody who read the previous posts here. I feel it important to do so.

Socialism is DEAD. It was a weak child that died long before the end of the cold war. It died because of mans greed and inhumanity . The truth is the masses are ( and always have been ) indifferent to their suffering. They are institutionalised by the very system that oppresses them. Nothing has changed !!!

I have nothing but contempt for the current world system.

I see no future in flogging the dead horse that is socialism today. Although I will never stop believing it to be a far better and fairer system than capitalism.

I think the question of today is a simpler one than in the past. Should we have capitalism or socialim, or libralism , or nationalism etc etc.?
The question is should we stand by ( whatever our politics ) and watch the Illuminati ( which is what this thread is about ) destroy everyone on the planets future.?

Like it or not the US is the Illuminati's biggest weapon and staunchest ally in the creation of a new world order. The one world government. It is not the american people I dislike it is it's lead role in the birth of the NWO played by its leaders. It is only the americans who can change that role. And if they were to look at the world without the rose coloured spectacles of national pride they would see the evil that prevails. Don't believe the hype we are at the edge of the abyss here do not let national pride blinker you from the truth .

Ælfhere
Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 03:49 PM
I'm skeptical of all 19th century isms, capitalism and socialism both. I don't think either one has the answer to cure all society's ills by themself. As I said before I think we need both systems to balance each other out. We ought not put all our eggs in one basket. Under a purely capitalistic society you have dirty factories, 18-hour days, child labor, and all kinds of exploitation. Seeing its track record through the past century I don't think pure socialism is any better. Putting 100% faith into some fallible ideology is never a good thing, whether its nationalism, liberalism or what have you.

Gorm the Old
Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 04:11 PM
Whether there is any respect for hard cash in the USA today, I wouldn't venture to say. It doesn't matter because there is no such thing, hasn't been for decades.

All of our money, whether in the form of coins or bills, is fiat money (from the Latin verb for "Let it be done"). It is quite possible that most of you have never seen a $1 silver certificate. The obverse reads: "This certifies that there is on deposit in the Treasury of the United States one dollar in silver, payable to the bearer on demand." In other words, it is a promissory note.

Now, look at the dollar bill in your wallet, a Federal Reserve note. There is no mention of silver, nor is there any mention of paying the bearer anything. In the upper left-hand corner there is one sentence which reads "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" So, this piece of paper has become one dollar and it isn't backed by ANYTHING.

However, the legal tender laws force us to accept this piece of paper as one dollar. These laws can be enforced upon us, but for several decades, other nations could and did demand payment in gold for international transactions, until our gold supply became so depleted that the Treasury had to demand that other nations accept our fiat money.

Silver was demonetized during the VietNam war, thus removing the brakes from the printing presses, permitting them to run off bushels of fiat money to pay for Johnson's ego trip.

Our coins (those that actually circulate, that is) are all worthless pieces of base metals which don't even represent fractions of a dollar's worth of silver.
Before the VietNam war, we had only two base-metal coins: the penny and the pre- and post- WWII nickels. All of the rest were about 92.5% silver.

We can't afford to mint silver coins now because the dollar is worth much less than an ounce of silver. Even when the Silver Certificate was in common use, the Treasury printed more of them than could be honored. This drove up the value of silver and down the value of the dollar, until silver coins were worth more as silver bullion than as currency.

Soon, silver coins were being hoarded. They still are. Hard cash is still respected. It has real intrinsic value. It remains an inescapable truth that
YOU CAN'T RUN OFF SILVER AND GOLD ON A PRINTING PRESS ! Lest we have any hedge against inflation during the "Great Depression", Franklin Roosevelt stole our hoarded gold, by Executive Order, and, until very recently, we free Americans couldn't legally own gold coins !

Every time that the Secretary of the Treasury says that he is going to "increase the money supply", what he means is that he is going to allow the Treasury to print more bills with nothing to support them. Gresham's Law states that "Bad money drives out good." And so, "increasing the money supply" dilutes the value of the pre-existing currency. The dollar becomes progressively weaker.

The American people are accustomed to and expect a rate of inflation of around 4%. It has averaged 3.936% for some time. Look at a 1950's newspaper sometime and be prepared for "sticker shock". The prices are incredible ! They're about 1/7 those of today. Of course, wages were proportionally lower also. A 1957 dollar had about 7 times the buying power of a 2007 dollar.

This is the inevitable consequence of a currency which has no material basis. I have heard it said that our fiat currency is based on the industry and business of the United States. HOW CAN IT BE ? The government DOESNT OWN these industries and businesses, so how can it base its currency on them ?

I have often urged that we should return to the gold standard. The objection always raised to this is that there isn't enough gold in the world to support a multi-trillion dollar economy. If our money were based on gold, it wouldn't BE a multi-trillion dollar economy. If our money were worth more, we wouldn't need so much of it.

Paper money was a brilliant idea, but also a perilous one. It permits (and in my opinion encourages) inflation which is impossible with a purely metallic currency. Admittedly, though, it is awkward and inconvenient to go around carrying a pocketful of heavy metal coins. Personally, I'd accept the inconvenience if I knew that my money was going to be worth the same decade after decade.

skyhawk
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 03:26 AM
I'm skeptical of all 19th century isms, capitalism and socialism both. I don't think either one has the answer to cure all society's ills by themself. As I said before I think we need both systems to balance each other out. We ought not put all our eggs in one basket. Under a purely capitalistic society you have dirty factories, 18-hour days, child labor, and all kinds of exploitation. Seeing its track record through the past century I don't think pure socialism is any better. Putting 100% faith into some fallible ideology is never a good thing, whether its nationalism, liberalism or what have you.

And I thought this thread was about the Illuminati lol ;)

Judging by the seeming lack of interest in the title of this thread ( obviously not many here subscribe to the theory ) we will learn , once again , the hard way. Armageddon , Ragnarok , Judgement Day whatever you believe , they all tend to agree , it has been written !

I don't think human nature can ever put 100 % faith into anything whatever it is. We haven't the capacity . However , I take your point about extremes.

I am not 100% red first and formost. I value freedom as much as equality , which may be seen as a liberals claim to fame and with good reasons. A good person is a good person , full stop.

I don't think , personally , we have ever seen a long term , world socialist state as such. What we have seen are the wobbly legs of a child learning to walk. Surrounded by parents who actively oppose and impede that childs progress for fear of one day handing over the reigns of power.

I notice in your post how the down side of Capitalism is easy to list , the usual suspects so to speak. We can all see it. Or pretend , like some , that we don't see it. Which is easier if you are able to look at that list from afar. Yet, when addressing socialism there was no list easily availabe , it was easier to dismiss it as more of the same. Remembering how we might have seen only the fledgling emergence of socialism , that in itself constitutes a good start in my book. I know people will think of a thousand challenges why it offers no hope for progress they always have. ( I have no desire to answer them either lol ) We have been under the same system for hundreds of years. It is only natural for us to feel negative toward a change in that system. The current system is however unsustainable , imho ,due to its impact on the environment alone, there is no choice but to change something drastically. If not for ourselves certainly for our children.

Gorm the Old
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 03:56 AM
Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance ! ;)

Kith of woden
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 04:00 AM
Im well aware of the perils of the illuminati and the nwo and all the other ideaologies of the "secret" societys .But I think Torquils analogy pretty much sums it up for me. I dont think we have ever seen a socialist state as it was meant to be .I think the reason we can all "sound off " a long list of problems regarding pure capitalism is that we are living the nightmare and can relate to it. Socialism has always been hijacked by self serving lunatics like Stalin and capitalism by the likes of Bush and Blair( also self serving lunatics) .The solution to me would be to oust the self serving lunatics and try to find some middle ground. Easier said than done but if we dont have some kind of hope then the illuminati have won. We all have our political Ideals but while a minority of greedy despots(illuminati) are running the show, there simply isnt a political ideal. Waes Hael!

skyhawk
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance ! ;)

Hello Egil,

The lack of activity , I feel , is a mixture of indifference to the existance of the Illuminati in the first place and the lack of belief that , even if proof of its existance became more manifest, their chances of success ( to create a one world government ) would be slim anyhow.

Personally, I think , any sort of Illuminati type network is a natural progression of the current world system. Much wants more if you like. It will be observed that all the great historical powers have had world domination inclinations only to see their own downfall occur before realising their ambitions. Let us hope the Illuminati will fair no better than the rest in this quest.

skyhawk
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 03:04 PM
Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance ! ;)

Hello Egil,

Foreign Policy and ambitions of world domination are relevant and always have been. One paves the way for the other does it not?

Gorm the Old
Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Maybe so, but I don't see any connection to [Free]Masonry or much to the struggle for the soul of Europe.

skyhawk
Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 04:17 AM
Maybe so, but I don't see any connection to [Free]Masonry or much to the struggle for the soul of Europe.

Hello Egil,

It is good to keep this thread going..... I can't believe it hasn't had too many posts. There is so much to debate and yet not much of a response.

What is noticable within the fine article on the history of masonry is the number of times the masons seem forced into taking a different responsibility whenever the ever changing world that surrounds them threatens their elitism. I wonder what really is the true aim of the masons it seems unclear? My own opinion, in a word , greed. The aim to have more power , wealth and status than the next person. The early secret societies mentioned for all we know might have resulted from them being outcast from the mainstream ( or masses as was used in the article) for their selfishness , forcing them to band together. A lazy person will always come up with the easiest way of doing a task and will therefore develope his intelligence accordingly.

The masons have survived whilst empires, nations , religions and political ideologies have tried and failed. A talent for sure. They seem to allign themselves with whatever, at the time , secures their continuance. Exploiting race , religion , politics etc as and when it suits.

It is elitism no more no less imho.

............ the battle for the soul of europe

I was referring to the end of the article about the forthcoming battle , in this case as seen from the eyes of masonry . Masons will no doubt be heavily involved in any attempt at establishing the NWO . Which can be seen in some countries current foreign policy.

The battle for the soul of europe.......... there will no doubt be a battle within europe during the introduction of the NWO ambition. Many places around the world will also find themselves doing some soul searching both racially, politically and religiously.
The fact that they are an international brotherhood makes them themselves open to the accusation of international conspiritor , much used in the article as a negative force at work against masonry.

skyhawk
Thursday, March 15th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Hello,..............again lol.

I would just like to make some further observations as to why i think the Masonry thread is relative to the setting up of the NWO. Thus connecting it to the foreign policies of todays international governments.

As is evident all the way through the article , Masonry is the real power behind our " elected " governments. If Churchill doesn't want to talk with Hess ( both Masons ) why should that have led to the slaughter of WW2? Why didn't Hitler call it off ? Was it down to anti semetism within German masonry that the second world war was fought ? Was Churchills rebuff based on the " influence of the international conspiritors " or his adversity to national socialism ?
The article also stated that the 3rd Reich , a totalitarian version of their popular Sozi ( National Socialist Democrats , the oldest political party in Germany ) predecessors had its heart in the Folkish ethic . Is this true or has Masonry used national identity and pride as a vehicle to conduct its anti semitic agenda ? As with all secret societies by the very nature of their secrecy we probably will never get to the bottom of their motives and aims

skyhawk
Friday, March 16th, 2007, 03:25 AM
It seems the more the subject matter of the article is discussed the more discussion within the thread tapers off. ;)

Maybe all those members of BuB who haven't posted on this thread ARE masons already. How would you know , it's a secret right? And the few who have replied are the only non masons here. Members of a society , so secret , you don't know your in it lol .

Anyhow , now I know everyone here ( Males ) are masons I will let my real opinion of them out !!!!!!!!

I think they are a wonderful example to us all . Friendly , caring , unselfish people who although they like their secrecy ( and to be honest there are too many nosy buggers knocking 'round these days ) they are decent honest men . :D

Gorm the Old
Friday, March 16th, 2007, 05:53 AM
RIGHT ON ! A late friend of mine, my best friend while he lived, was a 33rd degree Mason [Yes, I know that there are only 32 earned degrees in Freemasonry and the 33rd is honourary, but, he earned that honour]. Ross was a kind, considerate, thoughtful, generous person.

A very modest man, he "hid his light under a bushel". Very few people, only those who knew him well, knew that he was a retired Major in Army Intelligence, a graduate of the Army War College, and the holder of 3 academic degrees: B.S. from CCNY and UConn. and M.S. from Columbia, and a Registered Professional Engineer.

He was simultaneously active in four different Masonic lodges and engaged in charitable work for every one of them. If the Masons are so sinister, how does one account for the fact that many of the Founding Fathers of this country were Masons ? I agree with you completely, that the Masons are fine men of outstanding character.

skyhawk
Friday, March 16th, 2007, 10:19 PM
RIGHT ON ! A late friend of mine, my best friend while he lived, was a 33rd degree Mason [Yes, I know that there are only 32 earned degrees in Freemasonry and the 33rd is honourary, but, he earned that honour]. Ross was a kind, considerate, thoughtful, generous person.

A very modest man, he "hid his light under a bushel". Very few people, only those who knew him well, knew that he was a retired Major in Army Intelligence, a graduate of the Army War College, and the holder of 3 academic degrees: B.S. from CCNY and UConn. and M.S. from Columbia, and a Registered Professional Engineer.

He was simultaneously active in four different Masonic lodges and engaged in charitable work for every one of them. If the Masons are so sinister, how does one account for the fact that many of the Founding Fathers of this country were Masons ? I agree with you completely, that the Masons are fine men of outstanding character.

I am sorry to hear of your friends passing , Egil. I send my sincere sympathy to you and his friends and family.

The personal nature of your reply makes it almost impossible for me to answer your question with any degree of freedom. As I have stated before , there are good and bad in all things man made. I have no doubt your friend belonged to the former. So with that in mind I will refer to Masonry in general.

Masonry is primerily a vehicle used by the well off and influencial to the benefit of the well off and influencial , in my honest opinion. They are the pillars of the current system. One can see in the article the hugely influencial role they have played in all of mankinds history since their appearance.

They perpetuate a system that is the cause of poverty . Not just in the popular sense of the word , its use now being inevitably linked to money.

In a poverty of the people under its control. There is a thread currently running here about the book " Affluenza ". This book deals with this very real link between materialism and all manner of anxieties. It will be noted that , the book in question i think does not deal with third world situations tending to deal with the rise in depression in the developed ( open to debate itself ) countries instead. Thus we are seldom privi to the real losers of this system, namely the poor third world nations living in abject poverty.

I find the " charitable work " of the well off a contradiction in terms as well as an insult to the poor. It is a simple equation. The very fact that people need charity is a direct result of the doings of those who have benefited from their exploitation . Not only do the well off exploit the needy , they seem to wish to be thanked for it with cries of " for he's a jolly good fellow " at the annual charity bash.

Until we put people before profit there will always be charity cases.
There is no need for anybody alive today to starve to death but this is the state of play. Masonry , as a pillar of the current system , is then guilty of supporting the crimes that that system continues to commit.

The current system knows only too well what the problems of society are . They always have . But the very nature of that system renders them unable to cure these problems even if they wanted to.

Gorm the Old
Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 12:31 AM
Thanks for your sympathy, Skyhawk, but Ross died in 1995.....of an antibiotic-resistant staphylococcus infection contracted in the hospital where he'd gone to be treated for congestive heart failure.

As I mentioned, he attained the highest degree in Masonry. Yet, he was not only not wealthy; he wasn't even well-to-do. Nobody put him through CCNY, Columbia, and UConn. He WORKED his way through those programs, often living on a near-starvation diet.

I was co-executor of his estate, with his brother in Virginia, and discovered, in the process of trying to make sense of his finances, that he had less money at the time of his death than I, and I was making $33,000 a year at the time.

In fact, though I have known dozens of Masons, I have never met a really wealthy one, and only one who was moderately affluent. From what I, not being a member of the order, can ascertain, the majority of Masons are ordinary working stiffs, teachers, librarians, and others equally opulently and generously paid. :rolleyes:

Yet, they raise tens of thousands of dollars for children's hospitals, decent homes for the aged, medical research, etc. This isn't charity skimmed off the top of their limitless wealth, it's money raised by lodge fund-raising events, e.g., dinners [NO, NOT $1000-a-plate politician-style fundraisers at some posh restaurant, but $10 all-you-can-eat roast-beef or ham-and-bean suppers cooked by the ladies of Eastern Star, and served in the lodge hall.]

Take a look at the cars parked in the parking lot of a Masonic lodge on a meeting night. See if YOU can find any Bentleys, Rolls Royces, Mercedes-Benzs, Farraris. Lamborghinis, etc. or even Cadillacs or Lincolns. You'll find Toyotas, Subarus, VWs, Fords, Chevys, Hyundais, etc. They're not "slumming"; that's what they drive all the time because it's what they can afford.

If they're supporting a social order and economic system you hate, then SO ARE YOU, because the only way they're supporting it is by working for their wages within the socioeconomic order, as you do. Whatever Masonry may have been in the 18th and 19th centuries, it is NOT an elite today. Anybody who wants to help others can join, even if he be so poor as to need handouts from church-mice.

Kith of woden
Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 05:19 AM
Who knows, but maybe theres a hierachy system within the Masons? Maybe there are some honest and charitable ,hard working philanthropists within that organization. Could there be a few elite Masons that pull all the strings.With a more sinister agenda? Is this charitable side of masonry being publicly promoted to hide that agenda, to make it look all the more accesible? Or am I being paranoid? I personally dont think The Masons in this country are as easily accesible as they are in the U.S (in regards to Egils statement that anyone can join(no doubt true). Does this mean any one can become a mason or anyone can help them raise money? (maybe Egil can clarify that for me?) No one will admit to being a member here because its supposed to be secret. Why if anyone can join is it a secret society, the whole idea contradicts itself. Rumour has it that all our bosses at work are masons, if thats the case then believe me, these peopole are most definatley not charitable, and certainly not hard workers, by no stretch of the immagination. And thats taking into account the normal friction that can arise between a Worker and his boss.Anyway I hope my little contribution here will keep this fascinating thread going for a while longer. Waes Hael to all !

ladybright
Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 05:39 AM
Now class please read 'Born in Blood (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/Born_in_Blood_Book_Review.htm)' before our next session. My dads sponser gave him a copy before he joined. I think there are stringpullers who are masons but I do not think it a consiracy more of a like seeks like situation.

Gorm the Old
Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Yes, Wodenschild, there is a hierarchy. With 32 degrees of Masonry, there would inevitably be one. Not being a member, I do not know the details but my Friend, Ross held several high offices, such as High Priest.

The Masons here freely admit being Masons, if asked, and sometimes mention it casually in conversation, e.g., "Yes, we were discussing this in my Masonic lodge the other evening." The arcana of the rituals are a closely-guarded secret.

Among Ross' effects, I found some Masonic ritual books. They are written in code. It's much like speed-writing, and easily deciphered even without the key. Though I could easily have read them, I respected their desire for privacy and didn't try to do so.

I have no doubt that , about 150 years ago, the order would have sent agents to Ross' apartment after his death to retrieve the ritual books before they fell into the wrong hands, and, if they had already fallen into those hands, hunted the man down and slain him

As it was in 1995, I had to look up one of Ross' fellow Masons and tell him about them and he said. "Oh, OK. Just set them aside for me along with his regalia, and I'll stop by and pick them up sometime." Things have definitely changed.

Ross had attained the highest degree in Masonry and he claimed (whether truthfully, I cannot say) that he knew nothing of any political agenda or activity of the Masons and that it was just a charitable social fraternal order.

I said that anyone could join. I have been told that there is one requirement: one must acknowledge the existence of a supreme Being. I.e., atheists are not welcome. I believe that preference is given to applicants who have been members of the Order of DeMolay, the junior branch of Freemasonry.

Certain Masonic ceremonies (NOT rituals) are open to the public, such as installation of officers. I have attended several installations in which Ross assumed some office or other, and photographed and videotaped them with the enthusiastic permission and cooperation of the other officers.

skyhawk
Saturday, March 17th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Thanks for your sympathy, Skyhawk, but Ross died in 1995.....of an antibiotic-resistant staphylococcus infection contracted in the hospital where he'd gone to be treated for congestive heart failure..

Sorry to hear the tragic circumstance of your friends passing, Egil.


, he attained the highest degree in Masonry. Yet, he was not only not wealthy; he wasn't even well-to-do. Nobody put him through CCNY, Columbia, and UConn. He WORKED his way through those programs, often living on a near-starvation diet.

As I have stated before , Egil , there is good and bad in all that is man made. I don't doubt the philanthropic nature of your friend Ross for one minute. I have never said that Masonry or its followers are not industrious and hard working. But what I will say is their secrecy will hide any commercial skullduggery the less humanist natured members of the lodge may partake in. I wonder how many people have worked extremely hard for employment qualifications only to find a less qualified member of masonry beat them to the post simply because of his masonic connections. How would they feel if they knew?................Depressed ? . But a veil of secrecy will hide their sorrow.

I too know masonry members , I worked for one , who was of the most wretched nature. He was a avid church goer ( often a haven for a heart of poisoness hypocracy ). He noticed MY philanthropic nature and despised me because of it . And still does some 6 years after these events ( so much for the christians belief in forgiveness )

This man became obsessive in his persuit of my dismissal because I sought right where there was wrong and attempted stop the pitiful sight of working class men fighting amongst themselves for extra money , a situation HE had created due to his habit of giving the extra money to his " friends " by bypassing the rules democratically voted in by the men concerning extra hours/money.

I succeeded in making ammendments to the rules thus stopping the awful sight of good friends turning on eachother for money. The ammendments are still in place today. My thanks ? ................... or should I say my reward. The black spot for the rest of my days there from the management( Full of masonry) and the scorn of the workers for being brave enough to even challenge the authority of their masters. Sometimes the good are hated for simply that , being good. It being easier to criticise than emulate. I know we are back to the " good/bad " ethos again but the negative/misuse use of ones secret society is a very real reality.


,
I was co-executor of his estate, with his brother in Virginia, and discovered, in the process of trying to make sense of his finances, that he had less money at the time of his death than I, and I was making $33,000 a year at the time. .

Egil, I have no doubt either that his generosity was genuine , truly , and may well have been a contributing factor to his ( by western standards ) lack of finances .



In fact, though I have known dozens of Masons, I have never met a really wealthy one, and only one who was moderately affluent. From what I, not being a member of the order, can ascertain, the majority of Masons are ordinary working stiffs, teachers, librarians, and others equally opulently and generously paid. :rolleyes: .

Judging by this thread it would appear that the secrecy , legendary to Masonry , is sorely falling short of its objective. We have only just begun a real debate on this thread and already everybody knows who they are . It seems we only have to ask. I dont ask because elitism is self evident in manner. It appears like the scene in " Sparticus "................ Who's Sparticus ?........ I am ........... No I am..........he's lying I am....etc

If secrecy is the name of the game it appears the librarians , teachers etc are the public face of Masonry. Everybody seems to know them. There will be societies within societies maybe that's where the secrecy comes in ? Are the " Illuminati " the ultimate Masonic secret society ? Can you see any value in having teachers , librarians etc involved in the setting up of a NWO. You can bet EVERYBODY involved with NWO will be Masonic as was seen in the article. This , in my opinion , is the totally unacceptable face of any secret society. If they are so well intentioned ,why the secrecy ?

I will comment on pay later on.




Yet, they raise tens of thousands of dollars for children's hospitals, decent homes for the aged, medical research, etc. This isn't charity skimmed off the top of their limitless wealth, it's money raised by lodge fund-raising events, e.g., dinners [NO, NOT $1000-a-plate politician-style fundraisers at some posh restaurant, but $10 all-you-can-eat roast-beef or ham-and-bean suppers cooked by the ladies of Eastern Star, and served in the lodge hall.]
.

It gets better , not only do we know who they are , we know where they hang out and what they eat for dinner. The public face seems very accessible lol.
As I have stated before there should be no need for charity. Though it makes the charitable person feel good it makes the receiver feel miserable , humble and hopeless. Better off in material terms but worse off for pride , honour and selfrespect.

How many of the richest people in the world , say top 500 , do you think are not involved in Masonry? So you may not have met them , Egil , but they are there make no mistake. These are the people who control goverments , the madia ( not a typo ) , they own it!!!!



Take a look at the cars parked in the parking lot of a Masonic lodge on a meeting night. See if YOU can find any Bentleys, Rolls Royces, Mercedes-Benzs, Farraris. Lamborghinis, etc. or even Cadillacs or Lincolns. You'll find Toyotas, Subarus, VWs, Fords, Chevys, Hyundais, etc. They're not "slumming"; that's what they drive all the time because it's what they can afford

And where they park , what cars they drive................lol.......... it's too much. * Loud Hailer * " Calling all members of the Masonry..........we have a MAJOR security leak." This is redefining my definition of the word secrecy.

There is no other way to say this , Egil , so I'll just come out with it........... ANYBODY who owns a Toyota , or a Chevy or any car/SUV , whatever its make or year cannot be regarded as doing badly in the grand scheme of things.

As I type someone else died through lack of food or water. Let us not forget that a century ago these were common occurances in our own nations histories. Why do you suppose that changed ? As a voluntary gesture from the rulers of this system ? Whos mindset is profitmaking. I don't think so . It came as a direct result of Socialist Activity. To be more precise , the fear of the ruling classes that their beasts of burden would come to their senses and consume them . Fear not good intention.

And here we are with sick schemes , Toyotas , Welfare ( so as to be sure NOBODY in our own country would reach the desperate conditions that breed the seeds of Socialism ). Unions ( which You have no doubt been a member of ) Health and Safety etc ( which has also been to your benefit ) etc.................. and everywhere one goes they hear the chinese whispers and anti socialist rhetoric. As I said earlier in the reply the battle is not to convince the rulers of the damage their system bestows , it is to convince the wage slave of his right to a better life.

The system has cleverly linked itself to national pride and maybe that's why this ridiculous arguement carries on and on.It will be noted that most of the industrialised nations are the focus of research into depression caused by the current system. They don't seem to ask the third world its opinion. As we bestowed upon them the awful conditions of life we saw so commonplace here until we rose up against it a century ago , and are now more contented wage slaves , I think we at least owe them the right to recieve help on a bigger scale than we see.

Just so we understand a clearer image of modern day poverty. It's still the same , it just swapped borders !





If they're supporting a social order and economic system you hate, then SO ARE YOU, because the only way they're supporting it is by working for their wages within the socioeconomic order, as you do. Whatever Masonry may have been in the 18th and 19th centuries, it is NOT an elite today. Anybody who wants to help others can join, even if he be so poor as to need handouts from church-mice.

Is there a choice Egil ? I mean any real choice.

Should I not work , in protest ?

Then I would fit the bill of the typical stereotype much loathed and easily dismissed as a bum.

Besides you need to be involved to change things , right? ;)

Egil, I am a parent .There have been times I have not had the luxury of being able to stick to my convictions . YES I have contributed to a system I hate but have remained true to my goals and hope to leave a better world behind than I inherited , in however small those contributions may be and however much hostility I receive in trying to achieve them.

Gorm the Old
Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 05:32 PM
I know absolutely nothing of whatever may lie beneath the surface or lurk behind the scenes of Freemasonry. Therefore, I have nothing further to contribute to this thread.

skyhawk
Sunday, March 18th, 2007, 11:41 PM
I know absolutely nothing of whatever may lie beneath the surface or lurk behind the scenes of Freemasonry. Therefore, I have nothing further to contribute to this thread.

I would just like to thank you for your invaluable imput into this debate. I have learned much through this thread , so thanks goes to all posters here.

I know we don't see eye to eye on this Egil , it is probably down to our own differing personal life experience but i respect your right to your own opinions and wish you well.

At least we gave the initial post something like the debate it deserved. So that's a good thing.

ambiorix
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 02:02 AM
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Gorm the Old
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 03:31 PM
I was told by a 33rd degree Mason that , at least in the US, anyone who will attest that he believes in a supreme being can become a Mason.

Masonic folklore notwithstanding, there is no documentary evidence of the existence of this order before the 18th century.

ladybright
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 03:43 PM
My father is a 33rd degree mason and not a monotheist. He is celtic/druidic.He is the chaplin of his lodge right now and enjoys pushing the christians to expand their thinking.

ambiorix
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 10:08 PM
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ambiorix
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 10:13 PM
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ambiorix
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 10:25 PM
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ambiorix
Friday, April 6th, 2007, 10:42 PM
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Gorm the Old
Saturday, April 7th, 2007, 02:40 AM
Knowing that my friend, the 33rd degree Mason, was a Christian, a convert from Episcopalianism to Greek Orthodoxy, I suspect that he assumed that belief in a Supreme Being pre-supposed monotheism (though, in fact it does not.) Specifically, he was emphasising that Freemasonry excludes atheists.

The issue is of no importance to me personally, as I have never had any desire to join the Freemasons and play roles in pseudo-Biblical dramas at their meetings.

I postulate a Supreme Being in my philosophical speculations, but I am not sure that I BELIEVE in this entity. Mainly because I an uncertain of the meaning of "believe".

exit
Monday, June 30th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Surely an interesting - and controversial - take on the Freemasons. Thoughts? :)

Absolutely absurd. The author of that article has no idea what he's talking about. Freemasonry has nothing to do with racism or the illuminati, and its origins do not go back to the pharoahs!

Originally, operative Freemasonry grew out of the guilds of the Middle Ages and had three grades, the last of which signified the completion of the lesser mysteries. This order of initiation was designed for stone masons just as other arts had their own orders. The esoteric form was superimposed on Christianity, that being the exoteric tradition of the time.

Around 1700 Freemasonry had already degenerated, due largely to the persecutions by the Church and the Inquisition, and had become speculative. At this time, certain Masons went to great lengths to destroy the original material of the Order so that they might subvert it into a political society.