PDA

View Full Version : What is the Battle Axe Racial Type?



johnnywalker
Monday, April 19th, 2004, 01:57 AM
Does anyone have pictures of Battle Axe types?
What's their origins and where can you find them..

cosmocreator
Monday, April 19th, 2004, 06:53 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=54809&postcount=19

Some day I hope to complete the thread.

johnnywalker
Monday, April 19th, 2004, 04:04 PM
Where are they from?

Polak
Tuesday, May 25th, 2004, 02:26 PM
The pics are from Coon. But Coon had a funny idea what Corded/Battle-Axe was. He actually thought it was a low skulled type, but it isn't, it's very high headed.

Corded/Battle-Axe types have, at different times, been found from Central-North Europe to the Russian steppes.

The early Slavs belonged to this type. German tribes, on the other hand, tended to be more Halstatt.

It is thought that the Battle-Axe and other Nordid types originated in Central Europe, and then spread east and north, with the spread of Slavic, Germanic, and Baltic languages and cultures.

Kel`Thuz
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Does that guy look Battle-Axe? :D

http://sorcerer.metal.pl/ras/Kel`Thuz-general2_.jpg

Tommy Vercetti
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Impressive looking guy.Without that hippie haircut he would be even more convincing

Kel`Thuz
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Impressive looking guy.Without that hippie haircut he would be even more convincing

Are you joking? This is True Slavonic Warrior haircut, for intensive moshing and headbanging :D

Milesian
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 09:59 PM
I don't think he's Battle-Axe, he looks low-skulled for a start.
Gota-type perhaps?

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 12:07 AM
I don't think he's Battle-Axe, he looks low-skulled for a start.
Gota-type perhaps?

Head height of this gentleman is: - TOTAL: 239
- from earhole to headtop: 148
For me it's kinda high-headed...
BTW...
Head length: 199
Head breadth: 147

Polak
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Head height of this gentleman is: - TOTAL: 239
- from earhole to headtop: 148
For me it's kinda high-headed...
BTW...
Head length: 199
Head breadth: 147


Yeah, this dude can pass for BA easy. The pigmentation is within range also. There is some distorition in the photo, but still, he's close enough. A convex nose would've made him a more convincing BA tho...

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Yeah, this dude can pass for BA easy. The pigmentation is within range also. There is some distorition in the photo, but still, he's close enough. A convex nose would've made him a more convincing BA tho...

http://www.sorcerer.metal.pl/ras/Kel`Thuz-profile_.jpg

Doesn't it look a bit convex? Such noses and profiles were characteristic of Polish nobility from Malopolska, weren't they? This is Iranian-Pontid-BattleAxe connection, no doubt.

Polak
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 01:40 PM
http://www.sorcerer.metal.pl/ras/Kel`Thuz-profile_.jpg

Doesn't it look a bit convex? Such noses and profiles were characteristic of Polish nobility from Malopolska, weren't they? This is Iranian-Pontid-BattleAxe connection, no doubt.


Well, there you go then. Yeah, that's a Corded nose.

Stephen
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 01:57 PM
WOW, this guy looks like a jewish guy who I know. Anthropologically they are totally similar, except the eyes.
:jaw

Polak
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:05 PM
WOW, this guy looks like a jewish guy who I know. Anthropologically they are totally similar, except the eyes.
:jaw


Jews come in all different phenotypes. Many Jews from nothern Europe are Nordic looking.

But there is definitely a resemblance between the Corded type and Mediterranean types - the eagle or hawk profile is shared by them.

Agrippa
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:46 PM
I think he is just Nordid but with an Atlantid (Pontid?) influence.

Very progressive leptomorphic (with Leptosomic constitution also) type which I find typical for the basic Indoeuropean type.
He is the European counterpart to other herdsmen and warriors (f.e. in East Africa) in all of his features.

Whats his (body) height?

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 06:51 PM
I think he is just Nordid but with an Atlantid (Pontid?) influence.

Very progressive leptomorphic (with Leptosomic constitution also) type which I find typical for the basic Indoeuropean type.
He is the European counterpart to other herdsmen and warriors (f.e. in East Africa) in all of his features.

Whats his (body) height?

Body height: 182 cm . Shorter than his father, who was again shorter than the grandfather. Also the skulls of his paternal ancestors show the same exact features, but are even greater, with powerful browridges and sloping forehead, strong dolichocephaly and high-headedness, prominent nose. All were ethnic Poles for generations, of aristocratic descent - so probably Sarmatian (Iranian - steppe Kurgans?).
But that profile shot somehow reminds me of a notorious Doctor JG :D. Just compare them both...

Stephen
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 07:23 PM
No offense, but he is a bit ugly. :D
This nose & jaw...I would say typical jewish marks.
I know that it is a religion, but it is so typical amongst the jews imho...
So he looks like an aristocratic pole in Poland? :sick

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:06 PM
No offense, but he is a bit ugly. :D
are you a homosexual to judge man's beauty?


This nose & jaw...I would say typical jewish marks.
Rather typical Pontid/Dinaroid marks.


So he looks like an aristocratic pole in Poland? :sick
This kind of racial type was widespread among the steppe Aryans, who constituted some of the aristocracy in medieval Poland and later, before being outbred.

Agrippa
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:14 PM
If some Jews look like that they have European admixture and not the other way around.

Stephen
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:34 PM
1. So you must to be a homosexual to judge a man's beauty? :rofl ... but I dont want to leave you in doubt so I tell you that I am not a homosexual of course, but I have eyes. :D

2. Yes, "looking like a jew" is a big stereotype, but I just told you, what I experienced, when I was on a trip in Israel..

3. How the hell on Earth do you know that how the Steppe Aryans[???Sarmatians??] looked like? :D
[I read many different things about them, even that they were partially mongoloid, and the Scythians as well. Of course there are other sources, but real proofs?]

4. Isnt this Sarmatian - Polish nobility thing just a myth???
I read that on many sites.

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
3. How the hell on Earth do you know that how the Steppe Aryans[???Sarmatians??] looked like? :D
[I read many different things about them, even that they were partially mongoloid, and the Scythians as well. Of course there are other sources, but real proofs?]

Pure anthropology via skeletal analysis. And today's North Pontids in Ukraine are direct descendants of them - they are a living proof.


4. Isnt this Sarmatian - Polish nobility thing just a myth???
I read that on many sites.

Polish nobility's coat-of-arms were of direct Sarmatian (Iranian) origin, pure Slavic names are of Iranian origin, some of aristocratic family names are of Iranian origin, many Polish nobles belonged to the Pontid/Corded type with characteristic eagle-profile. Hence - Sarmatian/Scythian/Croatian/Aryan/steppe/Kurgan - whatever you call it - was a vital part of Slavonic ethnogenesis.

Stephen
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Well I've never seen a single skeletal analysis in this topic, a link would be very good. In fact I've seen lot of contradictory informations about the Sarmatians, Iranias, Scythians etc.
Ah well, lets go back to the topic.

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 11:18 PM
He is not ugly, quite the opposite :)

Kel`Thuz
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 11:53 PM
Well I've never seen a single skeletal analysis in this topic, a link would be very good. In fact I've seen lot of contradictory informations about the Sarmatians, Iranias, Scythians etc.
Ah well, lets go back to the topic.

Coon:
These Scythian kings were all buried in a royal burial ground in the region called by the Greeks the Land of the Gerrhi, which was situated in the bend of the Dnieper River near Nicopol. No matter where the Scythian monarch died, his remains would be deposited, in a funeral chamber, with great ceremony and with an extravagant quantity of human sacrifice, underneath a huge mound erected for that purpose.

Clearly we can see that the Scythians are the descendants of the Kurgans - Proto-Indo-Europeans, and their sacred burial grounds were on the Ukrainian/Polish border.

The Scythians themselves, under the influence of powerful Greek colonies on the north shore of the Black Sea, and particularly in the Crimea, produced a dis tinctive style of realistic art in gold repoussée. These tepresentations in-clude a number of portraits of Scythians in very realistic and life-like poses. They show a well-defined type of heavily bearded, long-haired men with prominent, often convex, noses. The browridges are moderately heavy, the eyes deep set. These faces are strikingly reminiscent of types common among northwest Europeans today, in strong contrast to those shown in the art of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Hittites, which are definitely Near Eastern.

Heavy browridges, prominent and convex noses, deep-set eyes - Pontid/Corded and in no way middle-eastern or 'jewish' (Hittite, as mentioned above).

. Of especial interest is a rich kurgan in the Royal Scythian burial district,63 near Alexandropol; (...) The kurgan contained five skulls in the primary interment; one of these was a large male of Corded type (...) two are narrow skulls of the normal Scythian Nordic variety, while the fifth, that which occupied the king's chamber, is of moderate size, long headed, with a low vault, sloping forehead, a high, prominent nose, and wide flaring zygomatic arches. The malars are large, and there is, in this respect, a slight mongoloid suggestion. One may not, however, on this evidence alone, identify the Royal Clan with Turks or Mongols.

Corded Nords predominate, but the low-vaulted skulls are also present - a sign of Alpine or Lapponoid intrusion?

We have seen that the Scythians and Sarmatians, although they undoubtedly included in their ranks many individuals of different political affiliations, formed nevertheless a quite constant principal racial type, which was essentially Iranian and a form of Nordic. In its characteristic low vault, as in other dimensions, it specifically resembled the earlier eastern European and central Asiatic Nordic form. It was essentially a member of the racial cluster associated with the spread of Satem Indo-European speech in both eastern Europe and Asia.

Low vault is suppoused to be characteristic, but modern population of these regions is almost exclusively high-vaulted - either an evolutionary or cyclical change, or a strong Baltid component dilluted among them is responsible for it.

Krampus
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 01:48 AM
What about Corded predominance which shows up in people from Northwestern Europe, is this an indicator of "Scythian" or Slavic ancestry or just a coincidence?

Kel`Thuz
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 11:41 AM
What about Corded predominance which shows up in people from Northwestern Europe, is this an indicator of "Scythian" or Slavic ancestry or just a coincidence?

Original Indo-European horse-riding aristocracy, being of pred. Corded type, left some of their phenotypic marks in NW Europe, while 'Aryanising' the conquered people, but they are in no way predominating! At least not as much as among the northern Slavs.

Väring
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 07:06 PM
I don't think he's Battle-Axe, he looks low-skulled for a start.
Gota-type perhaps?

I believe Bertil Lundman used the term "Götatypen" to describe the Battle Axe/Corded type, since its predominance in southern Sweden (Götaland).

Polak
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 01:10 AM
I believe Bertil Lundman used the term "Götatypen" to describe the Battle Axe/Corded type, since its predominance in southern Sweden (Götaland).



The Gotatypen is the same as Coon's Halstatt.

But this type has strong Corded features.

cosmocreator
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 04:44 AM
I would classefy him as a heavy case of extreme Dandruff! :D

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 08:17 AM
I always think of George Bush (the elder not George W.) as being of Corded type. I asked my Professor in college, M. Gimbutas, (or something spelled like this) "Who were Cordeds (Kurgans)? She said, "Gracile Cro-Magnons". She had dug up plenty of them.

Kel`Thuz
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 12:36 PM
I would classefy him as a heavy case of extreme Dandruff! :D

It ain't dandruff, but drops of rain from the outside

Glenlivet
Monday, May 31st, 2004, 03:08 PM
Gimbutas distinguished three waves of "kurganisation" of Old Europe. Schwidetzky (1980) wrote that there are two main difficulties for physical anthropological studies so to find not only cultural diffusion and subsequently cultural relations between Kurgan people and kurganised cultures but also physical-genetical relations due to human migration.

"1. The change of the physical anthropological structure of a population can be ascertained if the newcomers had been numerous enough or different enough from the earlier populations to change the body build and type structure in a measurable way. This means that it is very difficult to find physical anthropological traces of individual invaders or small migrant groups - small in relation to the autochtone population.

2. The physical anthropological materials of the fifth to the third millenium B.C. are very poor - much poorer than the archeological ones. There are many cultural groups which are not represented by any human remains, and other populations which are known only by some individuals or fragments of individuals"

(The Influence Of The Steppe People Based On The Physical Anthropological Data In Special Consideration To The Corded-Battle Axe Culture, Ilse Schwidetzky, Anthropological Institute of the Mainz University, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 8, Numbers 3+4, Fall/Winter 1980)

Schwidetzly also wrote (see source above) that "Fortunately we know the physique of Kurgan people quite well (Konduktorova 1973; Kruts 1969, Zinevich 1967 et al.): their skulls are long and broad, the face broad, the stature rather high; the robusticity of the bones is the main character. This Kurgan type is called by many physical anthropologists Proto-European (= Cromagnoid); it is found in many other European populations too, but not so frequently in the South and West as in the East."

The biological effect of the Kurgan population fade out from its centre in the North Pontic area. The Corded ware complex is biologically heterogenous, but the local groups in Czechoslovakia, Central Germany and Poland show a very homogenous block. This block do not show a biological affinities with the Ukrainian Kurgan populations. R Menk also explain Indo-Europeanisation of Northern Europe by indirect Kurganisation, "i.e. by invasion of previously Kurganized neighbour groups" (A Synopsis of the Physical Anthropology of the Corded Ware Complex on the Background of the Expansion the Kurgan Cultures, Roland Menk).





I always think of George Bush (the elder not George W.) as being of Corded type. I asked my Professor in college, M. Gimbutas, (or something spelled like this) "Who were Cordeds (Kurgans)? She said, "Gracile Cro-Magnons". She had dug up plenty of them.

Väring
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 05:35 PM
3. How the hell on Earth do you know that how the Steppe Aryans[???Sarmatians??] looked like? I read many different things about them, even that they were partially mongoloid, and the Scythians as well.

Carleton Coon on the Scythians (The Races of Europe)

There can be little doubt, even before examining the skeletal evidence, that the Scythians and Sarmatians were basically if not entirely white men and in no sense mongoloid. The only definite description of them which we have from classical literature is that of Hippocrates, who called them white-skinned and obese, but this designation was employed by the father of medicine to prove one of his environmental theories. In later times, the Alans are described as having golden hair.

www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI5.htm

beowulf_
Tuesday, June 1st, 2004, 09:41 PM
Interesting in this context is that the battle axe originated as boat axe in
Scandinavia while the corded ware chose the opposite
way. Newer studies show a continuity from Bandkeramik/funnel beaker to the
corded ware culture. Also, the expansation of the culture was to fast to be
explained by migration/population exchange.

So my guess is, that the battle axe culture was only a cultural movement
within an already Indogermanized area.

Kel`Thuz
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 07:12 PM
So my guess is, that the battle axe culture was only a cultural movement
within an already Indogermanized area.

There is no such a thing as 'Indo-germanic', and never was.

Shapur
Wednesday, June 2nd, 2004, 11:33 PM
The Sarmatians were tall black haired warriors.
Their genetic is mostly the same as today Iranians.
The Ossetians"Alans" the only survived tribe of Sarmatians has a genetic simmiliary with other Iranian tribes of about 92%.
These skulls I saw looks from the side Aryanoid.
But also a big admixture of other types.

Krampus
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 12:04 AM
Kel`Thuz

There is no such a thing as 'Indo-germanic', and never was.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \In`do-Ger*man"ic\, a. [Indo- + Germanic.]
1. Same as {Aryan}, and {Indo-European}.

2. Pertaining to or denoting the Teutonic family of languages
as related to the Sanskrit, or derived from the ancient
Aryan language.

A-C-LA
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:09 AM
Their genetic is mostly the same as today Iranians.
iranians in iran???


The Ossetians"Alans" the only survived tribe of Sarmatians has a genetic simmiliary with other Iranian tribes of about 92%.

which iranian tribes?

beowulf_
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:23 AM
@Kel´Thuz

Indogermanic = IE :D

What's Battle Axe?

Even Gimbutas has distanced herself from the hypothesis that Kurgan IV =
battle axe because C14-measurements show that central European corded ware
precedes finds in the Ukraine and corded ware is virtually absent at the
Caspian Sea.

So I think the Battle Axe culture is identical with an Indoeuropean
north-west group (Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Italo-Celtic (?)) which may have formed a dialect continuum by then.

Glenlivet
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 11:30 AM
Sarmatians and Scythians would probably look out of place in Iran and would be more common in Central to Northern Europe. I do not doubt that a small minority of the people in Northern Iran may resemble them, but the ones in the inner part and even more the south of the country do not with their more often than not gracile bodies, thick black hair, arched and concurrent eyebrows and olive skin complexion. I have not yet read any sources that would indicate that the tribes of the north had such physical characteristics.

"The means of these Scythian skulls show them to be low mesocephals of moderate cranial dimensions, but with a low vault height. The cranial means are, in fact, almost identical with those of the Keltic series from France and the British Isles. They resemble the Aunjetitz and Hallstatt skulls only as much as the Keltic series mentioned resemble these latter."

[CS Coon, The Races of Europe, Chapter VI, section 5, The Scythians, 1939]

Polak
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 11:42 AM
@Kel´Thuz

Indogermanic = IE :D

What's Battle Axe?

Even Gimbutas has distanced herself from the hypothesis that Kurgan IV =
battle axe because C14-measurements show that central European corded ware
precedes finds in the Ukraine and corded ware is virtually absent at the
Caspian Sea.

So I think the Battle Axe culture is identical with an Indoeuropean
north-west group (Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Italo-Celtic (?)) which may have formed a dialect continuum by then.


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this these days.

The proto Indo-Europeans came from the eastern steppes.

But Slavic ethnogenesis took place in central eastern Europe.

I think that both y-chromosome and mtDNA markers support this view.

The early Slavs showed much Corded blood in them, and they spread east into Russia.

The early Inod-European types were somewhat different - braoder faced. Though I don't think they were out of the Nordid range.

Shapur
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:28 PM
iranians in iran???


which iranian tribes?
Kurds, Persians, Lurs, Gilanis, Mazandaranis.
Choose your tribe... :D

Shapur
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:30 PM
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this these days.

The proto Indo-Europeans came from the eastern steppes.

But Slavic ethnogenesis took place in central eastern Europe.

I think that both y-chromosome and mtDNA markers support this view.

The early Slavs showed much Corded blood in them, and they spread east into Russia.

The early Inod-European types were somewhat different - braoder faced. Though I don't think they were out of the Nordid range.
Your world view say they come from eastern Europe. But the most scientist say they come from Anatolia. What is correct? You or the most scientist who support the Anatolia theory? ;)

Glenlivet
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:36 PM
Indo-European is a collective name, for cultures speaking related languages. The system was always patriarchal. The proto-Indo-Europeans probably expanded from somewhere in the Black Sea region in c. 4000 B.C.

The most popular hypothesis is the one of the Kurgans from Marija Gimbutas. She place them in southern Russia. Their expansion coincided with the taming of the horse. J Mallory modified it to an earlier date, around 4000 B.C.

Colin Renfrew's theory regarding an Anatolian (Asia Minor) origin is less popular.

New archaeological evidence create new problems. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza combined the theories with genetic evidence. In that case the Anatolian farmers would move north, split up and expand west with Kurgan culture. Also read about the biological Kurganisationo of Europe (http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=10349&page=2&highlight=roland)

Polak
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:38 PM
Your world view say they come from eastern Europe. But the most scientist say they come from Anatolia. What is correct? You or the most scientist who support the Anatolia theory? ;)



Most scientists support the view that R1a is associated with the Kurgan culture.

And the Kurgan culture was an early, if not proto-IndoEuropean culture.

Please read all the articles associated with this in the genetics section of this very forum. You can also search the net. There are many reports out there from very reputable sources which back what I'm saying.

Just type in R1a, Kurgan and Indo-European into any search engine, and read.

The Anatolian theory you back so strongly is an old theory born before genetics became an advanced science.

Your theories don't hold water, sir. For Christ's sakes, you though R1a was an mtDNA marker. That's how confused you are.

Read, read, and read some more, then we'll talk.

Shapur
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 01:49 PM
You think that your old Kurgan theory is correct.
But the Anatolia theory make sence.
So when the Kurgan exist there must be 8 Indo-Aryan languages.
Is this possible? Yes but then the Kurgan culture were not the original IE speakers.
:P

@Volksdeutscher: Es gibt genug genetische Beweise und sprachliche Beweise, dass die Kurgan Theorie zum Teil richtig ist. Die orginal Indo-Germanen kammen aus Anatolien. Später sind sie in das heutige Kurgan Gebiet eingewandert und breiteten sich von dort aus über ganze Europa aus.
Diese Kurgan Theorie ist veraltet. Und sie kann schon allein aus linguistischer Sicht gar nicht stimmen, denn in dieser Zeitspanne können sich nicht so viele Sprachen aus der Kurgan proto Sprache entwickelt haben.
Sprich als es das Kurgan Volk gab, gab es schon seit über 1000 Jahre eine Indo-Arische Sprache. ;)

beowulf_
Thursday, June 3rd, 2004, 03:17 PM
I´d like to conclude that the neolithic cultures of central
and east Europe (TRK, LBK, Tripolye-Cucuteni, Sredny-Stog) have yet been
IE and the Kurgan culture constitutes the east group (Skytho-Aryan) which
has some secondary similarities with the Slavic languages (kw>s) due to
spatial proximity.

The study of Gray/Atkinson has been exulted in popular
"science" magazines. In fact the statistic assumptions
are invalid because the variance of the estimated rate of
change is way low. Further I don´t see any causal
connection between an Anatolian Urheimat and the
time frame.

@Shapur
In der deutschsprachigen Fachpresse scheint eine
anatolische Herkunft der Idg. weit weniger akzeptiert zu
sein als bei den Angelsachsen. Die These beruht m.E. auf
der Fehlorientierung "ex oriente lux", die allein durch
das frühe Auftreten der Linearbandkeramik und Starcevo-Körös-Kultur ohne überzeugendes Bindeglied zu
kleinasiatischen Formen so kaum zu halten sein wird.

Die anatolische Herkunftshypothese hat, finde ich, einfach
wenig Plausibilität für sich:
Warum haben die Indogermanen halb Eurasien besiedelt,
sind aber in ihrer angeblichen Urheimat Kleinasien bei der
Landnahme der hethitisch-luwischen Stämme Ende des
dritten Jahrtausends dort nicht mehr anzutreffen, dafür
aber eine ganze Reihe nicht indogermanischer Völkerschaften (Hatti, Urartäer, Minoer)?

Väring
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Would Father Merrin pass for a Battle Axe Nordic?

Shapur
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 10:25 PM
I´d like to conclude that the neolithic cultures of central
and east Europe (TRK, LBK, Tripolye-Cucuteni, Sredny-Stog) have yet been
IE and the Kurgan culture constitutes the east group (Skytho-Aryan) which
has some secondary similarities with the Slavic languages (kw>s) due to
spatial proximity.

The study of Gray/Atkinson has been exulted in popular
"science" magazines. In fact the statistic assumptions
are invalid because the variance of the estimated rate of
change is way low. Further I don´t see any causal
connection between an Anatolian Urheimat and the
time frame.

@Shapur
In der deutschsprachigen Fachpresse scheint eine
anatolische Herkunft der Idg. weit weniger akzeptiert zu
sein als bei den Angelsachsen. Die These beruht m.E. auf
der Fehlorientierung "ex oriente lux", die allein durch
das frühe Auftreten der Linearbandkeramik und Starcevo-Körös-Kultur ohne überzeugendes Bindeglied zu
kleinasiatischen Formen so kaum zu halten sein wird.

Die anatolische Herkunftshypothese hat, finde ich, einfach
wenig Plausibilität für sich:
Warum haben die Indogermanen halb Eurasien besiedelt,
sind aber in ihrer angeblichen Urheimat Kleinasien bei der
Landnahme der hethitisch-luwischen Stämme Ende des
dritten Jahrtausends dort nicht mehr anzutreffen, dafür
aber eine ganze Reihe nicht indogermanischer Völkerschaften (Hatti, Urartäer, Minoer)?
Erstens was für eine Skytho-Arische Gruppe?
Es gibt eine Skytho-Sarmatische Gruppe die zur Iranischen Sprachgruppe gehört. Im weiteren haben wir sehr viele Dokumente und Belege über die Skytho-Sarmatische Sprache.
Ich denke für den Grund warum die Indo-Germanen sich nicht nach Süden ausbreiteten ist, weil dort die Semiten lebten und eine natürliche Barriere zwischen den Indo-Germanen und den Süden darstellten.
Im weiteren waren die Hochkultur Bereiche der Indo-Germanen im Süden sprich Iran, Anatolien, Griechenland.
Dagegen waren sie im Norden kulturell eher etwas "unterentwickelt" im gegensatz zu ihren Brüdern im Süden.
Im weiteren müsste die Theorie eines Zentral Asiens Ursprungs bzw. Kurgan Ursprungs vorraussetzen, dass die Arier M17 als Basis ihres HG Y haben.
Das würde bdeuten, dass die Hochkulturen und Bastionen der Indo-Germanen nicht Arier waren.
Im weiteren ist die Griechisch/Armenische Sprache 8700 Jahre alt.
Die Iranische Sprache 6900 Jahre alt. Bin mir nicht mehr 100% sicher bei den Zahlen ob jetzt nun 6900 oder 6700. Wie du siehst enstanden diese Sprachgruppen eine lange Zeit bevor es das Slavische gab was es etwa erst seit 3000 Jahren gibt. Ich bezweifle das ein Volk rausgezogen ist um alle mit Gewalt zu indo-germanisieren. Dagegen scheint die Theorie von einer friedlichen Expansion viel realistischer.
Im weiteren wurden von den Nazis selber so eine Annahme gemacht.
Frag dich selber warum die Nazis die Slaven als nicht-Arier sahen.
Das liegt wohl am M17/M173 HG Y was seinen Ursprung in Südost Asien hat.
Deswegen waren ihre Vorfahren meist klein, hatten eine nach innen gebogenne Nase, ein eher mongolisches Gesicht.
Durch die lange Besiedlungs Europas und dieser Klimaregion wurden sie zu dem was sie heute sind.
Dagegen ist der nordische Mensch genau so wie der iranische Mensch groß gebaut, große Nase, Kopf mehr länglich als ründlich.
Die Nazis hatten die Theorie einer Alpinen Invasion.
Was zum Teil stimmte. Sie kam nich aus dem Nahen Osten sondern aus Russland(M17/M173). Dagegen lebten in Europa schon Menschen die vor etwa 25.000 Jahren einwanderten. HG I ist einer der bekanntesten dieser Gruppe.
Und jetzt rate mal wo dieses HG I am öfftesten zutreffen ist?
Ja wo denn? In Skandinavien, Croatien, Sardinien und südost Europa.
Genau die Gebiete die von den Nazis als ARISCHE hochwertig betrachtet wurden.
Im weiteren ist die HG I Gruppe direkt mit der HG F* Gruppe verwandt.
Wobei HG I aus HG F* enstanden ist.
Deswegen sind die Iranier/Kaukasier von der Skelletstruktur ähnlicher der HG I Gruppe sprich den Germanen als die anderen Europäer.
Deswegen sahen die Nazis nur die HG I/HG F/HG J/HG E Gruppe als ARISCH.
Sie kannten natürlich diese Gruppen nicht im Sinne doch wurden gewisse Populationen die diese HG Gruppen im hohen Mase hatten als sehr arisch angesehen.

Lass dir das mal durch den Kopf gehen.

Schönen Abend noch!;)

Polak
Saturday, June 12th, 2004, 03:04 AM
Would Father Merrin pass for a Battle Axe Nordic?


Indeed he would. A perfect example.

Väring
Wednesday, June 30th, 2004, 06:33 PM
This fellow might be yet another of those Battle Axe hopefuls.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, June 30th, 2004, 11:43 PM
Ingvar Carlsson is in any case remarkably Nordid, comparable to Stefan Edberg in facial shape. They are probably what is called Trönder.



This fellow might be yet another of those Battle Axe hopefuls.

Väring
Sunday, July 4th, 2004, 08:22 AM
I found this at the SNPA page : "The Trønder is a variable racial strain, ranging in type from large, Irish-looking Brünn individuals and tall, slender Battle-Axe survivors, to almost completely Nordic populations."

www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/rg-tronder.htm